What is it that you dislike about Fire Emblem?

[Jave]

I find it pretty funny that the people refuting Loki's statements are doing so in a very defensive fashion and using terms like "weebo" and "otaku" to refer to FE13 fans.

There's... quite a bit of irony there.

[Anacybele]

I doubt this was the actual intention, but Awakening almost feels like an apology for RD's paired ending options.

Yeah, that's true. I could pretty much get all the pairings I wanted there, which I'm glad of. I wish I didn't make pairings such a big deal though... I just love good romance stories too much...

Oh yeah, the face rubbing thing in Fates is just stupid as hell, even more stupid than any bad character designs. I don't mind the hotsprings though, that's a more realistic and reasonable way to do fanservice. Any troops in real life will want to buckle down and relax for a bit as well as wash up during war. And a hot spring is comfortable.

[Florete]

Every time someone comments on the fandom becoming oh-so-terrible post Awakening, I wonder a few things:

1. Were you around pre-Awakening? It was in smaller doses because the fandom was smaller, but there were very similar problems.

2. Do you go anywhere except places like the YouTube comment section where trolling and immaturity are the norm?

3. Have you seen the state of other fandoms for long-running series?

If you consider all of the above, the FE fandom is actually pretty good. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. I see more people complaining about the fandom than I actually see the things they are complaining about.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[Irysa]

I find it pretty funny that the people refuting Loki's statements are doing so in a very defensive fashion and using terms like "weebo" and "otaku" to refer to FE13 fans.

There's... quite a bit of irony there.

Except Loki described fans of the series pre Awakening as weebs in the first place. <_<

I absoloutely agree that this fanbase has always had weebs in it, but disagreed with the way the overall point was phrased in trying to portray the elitist tendancies as weebs vs non weebs. That's simply not the case.

2. Do you go anywhere except places like the YouTube comment section where trolling and immaturity are the norm?

Oh come off it, even SF had it's torrent of pre-release "wich fire emblem wuld u fug" for FE14. It's not limited to Youtube.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Irysa

[eclipse]

I think "we're like/not as bad as other fanbases" is a terrible argument. Being like another fanbase is not a good end goal.

EDIT: Also, I agree with Dark Sage that most long running franchises have elitist tendancies amongst their fanbases. Not that this is neccessarily good or excusable, but it isn't exactly an isolated or exaggerated problem with this specific series.

basically if I'm understanding you correctly, it's that there are elitists who don't like a lot of the newer fans and treat them with contempt. In other news, water is wet and the sun will explode long after everyone in the world is dead.

Not to say that the two of you are like this, but the behavior you've both mentioned needs to go. Some fans lose interest in a series and go elsewhere. Others can no longer follow a series due to circumstance. Regardless, a fanbase without new members will eventually stagnate and die. Once upon a time, the vast majority of the members here picked up a Fire Emblem game for the first time.

IMO, balance is needed. The old-timers need to be willing to welcome the new guys, and the new guys need to be able to work their way into the community without getting everyone else mad at them. Problems arise when one side doesn't do their part. I can't directly control how a new person will act, but I can control how I act.

If you consider all of the above, the FE fandom is actually pretty good. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. I see more people complaining about the fandom than I actually see the things they are complaining about.

Find the gigantic topics in the Fates section. Read them.

---

From a gameplay perspective, I really dislike the trend towards "romance everyone". The GBA games may not have been the paragon of writing, but it featured same-sex non-romantic supports, non-marriage supports from different genders, and even those supports that had all the right markers to end in marriage. . .didn't (Isadora and Legault, I am looking at you). I'm not fond of having kids in every game, unless the first generation gets wiped out a la FE4.

The other thing I hate with a passion is rain/snow. It slows the game down for no good reason IMO.

[maybe]

I see more people complaining about the fandom than I actually see the things they are complaining about.

This, basically. Honestly, I'm far more bothered by the constant complaining about the fanbase than I am by the actual fanbase. I'm pretty sick of people complaining about things that are so insignificant when, ignoring these rather rare problems, we have a pretty decent group compared to most others.

[Sunwoo]

Ana, i think they are saltier about Avatar marriage kinda dominating the current game(s) in the series, not pairings themselves. I can see their point, because Avatar marriage is making things make less sense between characters and writing, just to make sure they can marry everyone in the game. I think everyone is usually fine with really good written supports between characters that wind up married at the end of the game and junk like that.

This. I am aware that "marriage" has been a thing since support conversations were a thing. But they were reserved for character endings once the game was over and have always been limited before Awakening. (I am not counting FE4 because that was before the conventional support system became a thing.) I liked how FE7/8 had platonic supports between men and women that did not end in a romance (Lyn/Wil, Hector/Serra, L'Arachel/Joshua to name a few), how people of the same gender could have endings together, and that not everyone was compatible with everyone as a marriage partner. Having an avatar that can marry everyone, and therefore everyone can marry everyone, and putting children in as a game mechanic just cheapens those aspects and makes people who have no chemistry together able to marry just for the sake of kids.

Now, this is forgivable in a game where marriage and children are actually part of the plot and the theme. Games in which neither of these are a mechanic, however, have no excuse.

[kantoorfarina]

Having to be able to marry every character.

Every, single, character has to be taylor-made to appeal to anime fans and be attractive and marriable. I don't like the thought of Pent and Louise not being married. Marrying your little sister who grew up loving you as an older brother and having kids with her is downright creepy, not to offend Elise fans. They even slightly damaged Fates's story to make the Hoshido siblings marriage candidates. It honestly feels like waifus are becoming one of the main selling points, and that makes me sad.

I'd prefer set growth rates over RNG-based ones. Usually, Growth rates more provide an average to characters stats instead of really putting it up to the RNG. But if you have the worst luck, it can seriously ruin a good unit for you with you having no control over it whatsoever.

[Nobody]

One thing that I dislike about Fire Emblem are the trigger skills, because I feel like they make the game more luck based than it already is. I always see people praise the addition of skills on games but I feel their absence is something positive gameplay wise.

I also dislike the slowness of FE4, FE9 and FE10, but I can put up with the former two and I can speed up 4 with emulation anyway.

Nowadays, I dislike pair up on awakening. I find it way too broken. I mostly enjoy playing awakening on Hard/Classic without pair up and it plays really nicely that way imo.

I dislike some specific chapters like Genesis, Wooden Cavalry and all the maps in the part 2 of radiant dawn, except the endgame, which is decent.

I find the prologue in FE12 really boring.

[maybe]

Having to be able to marry every character.

Every, single, character has to be taylor-made to appeal to anime fans and be attractive and marriable. I don't like the thought of Pent and Louise not being married. Marrying your little sister who grew up loving you as an older brother and having kids with her is downright creepy, not to offend Elise fans. They even slightly damaged Fates's story to make the Hoshido siblings marriage candidates. It honestly feels like waifus are becoming one of the main selling points, and that makes me sad.

I hugely agree with the part about MU being able to marry everyone. Pent and Louise is a great example. Nowadays, I feel like we'll never have anything like that again because the avatar HAS to be able to marry everyone. And it's a shame, because I really liked couples like that. Pent and Louise, Ethlin and Cuan, etc. I feel like that's why Anna and the ballista class are in Fates, but not Jake.

I mean, I'm fine with things like Harken and Isadora, but that's just a little thing I like. I have numerous other problems with S supports, but that's one thing I rarely hear mentioned.

[Loki Laufeyson]

So like

how is this different from any other long running video game fanbase? actually, it's better off than zelda's or sonic's fanbase because there are more people willing to say positive things even about the games they don't like.

basically if I'm understanding you correctly, it's that there are elitists who don't like a lot of the newer fans and treat them with contempt. In other news, water is wet and the sun will explode long after everyone in the world is dead.

EDIT: and what Irysa said too.

Just because a lot of other fandoms have assholes in them, doesnt mean our fandom has to tolerate that kind of behavior. Its hypocritical of a fandom who desperately wanted the thing they like to be liked by other people to act like that. Im gonna call out people being jerks to new members of the fandom. Elitism isnt something you should just dismiss. I dont give a shit if people play the games with LTC styles and all that stuff that makes people in the fandom really smug. Its their game and they can experience it any way they want. And the newer players should be treated with the same respect.

Zelda's fandom is actually way more diverse and its vocal minority smaller as a result. Plus, i dont see Zelda fans pushing other fans around. I just see them whining occasionally (really loudly) about the games.

Unless you actually run statistical studies on people who purchase Fire Emblem games, you're making gross, meaningless generalizations about the Fire Emblem fanbase. If anything, the otaku-type fans came after Awakening pandered to them. Otherwise, Fire Emblem in the west was mostly attractive to a subset people who played Nintendo games like Zelda and especially Smash (or other non-Nintendo tactical games like FFT), but there's not much demographic analysis you can do beyond that.

I doubt this was the actual intention, but Awakening almost feels like an apology for RD's paired ending options.

You are assuming i mean anime fan/weeb in a very derogatory manner, which is your fault. Because that is not exactly a bad thing, liking anime. A lot of people like anime and thats something that draws them in to this series because of its artstyle and junk. Were you even around pre-Tellius? Most of the fandom really was just like, a single demographic of people. Hell, i was thought of as the odd one out because i was outside the common demographic. Otaku type fans have always been a part of the FE fandom. Always. Especially with the fan translation bunch who makes playing pre-FE7 games possible.

I find it pretty funny that the people refuting Loki's statements are doing so in a very defensive fashion and using terms like "weebo" and "otaku" to refer to FE13 fans.

There's... quite a bit of irony there.

Yes, and assuming that weeb/otaku is always meant derogatory.

Every time someone comments on the fandom becoming oh-so-terrible post Awakening, I wonder a few things:

1. Were you around pre-Awakening? It was in smaller doses because the fandom was smaller, but there were very similar problems.

2. Do you go anywhere except places like the YouTube comment section where trolling and immaturity are the norm?

3. Have you seen the state of other fandoms for long-running series?

If you consider all of the above, the FE fandom is actually pretty good. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. I see more people complaining about the fandom than I actually see the things they are complaining about.

1. Yes and you know it.

2. Yes and you know it.

3. Yes and you know it.

Outside of SF? The fandom is actually rather brutal. People complain for a reason.

I think "we're like/not as bad as other fanbases" is a terrible argument. Being like another fanbase is not a good end goal.

Not to say that the two of you are like this, but the behavior you've both mentioned needs to go. Some fans lose interest in a series and go elsewhere. Others can no longer follow a series due to circumstance. Regardless, a fanbase without new members will eventually stagnate and die. Once upon a time, the vast majority of the members here picked up a Fire Emblem game for the first time.

IMO, balance is needed. The old-timers need to be willing to welcome the new guys, and the new guys need to be able to work their way into the community without getting everyone else mad at them. Problems arise when one side doesn't do their part. I can't directly control how a new person will act, but I can control how I act.

Find the gigantic topics in the Fates section. Read them.

---

From a gameplay perspective, I really dislike the trend towards "romance everyone". The GBA games may not have been the paragon of writing, but it featured same-sex non-romantic supports, non-marriage supports from different genders, and even those supports that had all the right markers to end in marriage. . .didn't (Isadora and Legault, I am looking at you). I'm not fond of having kids in every game, unless the first generation gets wiped out a la FE4.

The other thing I hate with a passion is rain/snow. It slows the game down for no good reason IMO.

All of this. You shouldnt excuse dickery simply because Other People Do It. Theres a reason people say "Dont be like Superwholock" and facepalm or die inside when discussing the Sonic fandom.

[Radiant head]

You are assuming i mean anime fan/weeb in a very derogatory manner, which is your fault. Because that is not exactly a bad thing, liking anime. A lot of people like anime and thats something that draws them in to this series because of its artstyle and junk. Were you even around pre-Tellius? Most of the fandom really was just like, a single demographic of people. Hell, i was thought of as the odd one out because i was outside the common demographic. Otaku type fans have always been a part of the FE fandom. Always. Especially with the fan translation bunch who makes playing pre-FE7 games possible.

Yes, and assuming that weeb/otaku is always meant derogatory.

Honestly, the connotation of the otaku/weeb thing has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote in my post.

Frankly most the criticisms of "fandom" is just a criticism of internet and gamer culture in general. I mean I criticized FE fandom myself in my first post in this thread, but I don't think broad generalizations and criticisms of gamer culture as a whole is remotely insightful.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Radiant head

[IfAwakened]

It happens from time to time. Although the fanbase has always been a bit hit & miss.

Yeah Awakening "saved" the series by passing a sales number that almost every other FE managed, its overstated. Awakening made FE mainstream. It didn't save it.

Not that its a bad thing, but I get tired of "Oh Awakening did this well, everyone has to like it". I mean I like it, but there are valid reasons to not like it too.

Honestly, every fanbase is hit and miss. Except the Final Fantasy fanbase. That's all miss. And yeah, the fact that Awakening saved the series is way overstated. Nowadays, 250k units is nothing to an AAA developer, especially Nintendo/ IntSys.

Ey.

Sorry for my relative FE noobiness.

Also I kinda wanna mention this to everyone that I was around during the older Fire Emblem games, it's just that my brother told me how good Awakening was, so I decided to play it, now I wish I had played it back then...

Edited September 7, 2015 by IfAwakened

[Loki Laufeyson]

Honestly, the connotation of the otaku/weeb thing has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote in my post.

Frankly most the criticisms of "fandom" is just a criticism of internet and gamer culture in general. I mean I criticized FE fandom myself in my first post in this thread, but I don't think broad generalizations and criticisms of gamer culture as a whole is remotely insightful.

Your defensiveness has everything to do with it.

Gamer culture has...freaking...problems, mate. Ones we should not ignore. If you cant handle people pointing them out, well oopsie for you.

I also chime in about the marriage business. While im not too arsed either way, it does create issues. Big gaping narrative issues, and thats annoying. Its most evident in Fates where guys like Ryouma are S supportable. Its like "yo, thats my brother." Also, some of the second gen characters are designed to look adorable and child-like, yet are S supportable. Welp. That just...we really dont need it.

One thing im genuinely salty about is there hasnt been an actual axe lord like Hector since...Hector. : (

[The Geek]

I'm also not too fond of marriage in Fates. It worked in Awakening, as it was the first time marriage had been done like that and it actually played into the game's story (if not very much). In Fates it feels incredibly tacked on.

Also, I'm agreeing on the incest front. I wanted to support with my cute little sister, not marry her.

[-Cynthia-]

Nonsense. The FE fandom has a tendency to be extremely homogeneous, lacking demographic diversity. For years, its been the standard teenage boy into anime who likes the series. More women got into the fandom over time, but mostly otaku/weeb sorts. Awakening drew in a bunch of different people into the series, and people who arent just into anime. The fandom isnt being accommodating to that, telling these new people that the way they are playing the game(s) is wrong. Or they are to blame for whatever new feature in the upcoming game(s) being present that they dont like. Fandoms of all sorts have issues, but this one's happens to be push-back to people liking the thing they like. Which is fucking ridiculous in a series that, for years, has been so terribly niche.

People arent being babies about it. They are simply pointing to the elephant in the room.

I can't really consider statements like this seriously without anything to back them up. I personally don't know how homogenous or not the FE fanbase is or was, especially compared to other fanbases.

[Sunwoo]

If IS wanted us to be able to marry the siblings, they should've just not marketed them as siblings in the first place. I don't want to marry Leon, Takumi, Sakura, or Elise -- who all call you older brother/older sister even if you marry them in the story. I don't want to marry Marx, Ryouma, Camilla, or Hinoka -- whom you cal older brother/older sister even if you marry them in the script. Just … focus on sibling love or romantic love. You can't have it both ways.

[Jedi]

Ey.

Sorry for my relative FE noobiness.

Also I kinda wanna mention this to everyone that I was around during the older Fire Emblem games, it's just that my brother told me how good Awakening was, so I decided to play it, now I wish I had played it back then...

It's fine, don't worry about it. I just felt I should share that info ^^.

I'm always glad to see new fans regardless what game they started with.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Jedi

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Uh, forgive me here, but I can't seem to understand why anyone has a problem with marriage... It's been around since the series started, since Marth canonically married Caeda and stuff. And reasons like only because of a lack of same-sex pairings? Fates just gave you guys some. And I don't even think there are a lot of homosexual people in real life. I've certainly met only a few. So it's perfectly realistic for the majority of the characters to be heterosexual. Also, a same-sex marriage can present conflict if there's a second generation, particularly involving children that have to inherit something from a parent for plot-related reasons.

I know it's been said, but I may as well throw my two cents in.

It's not so much marriage that I have a problem with. As you said, Marth canonically married Caeda, and Lewyn canonically married Fury. I just don't like that it seems to have become every unit can marry every unit. Roy is my third-favorite character in the entire series (behind only Lyn and Ephraim), but I think he has too many possible spouses. Isn't it possible to have a support with a girl and just be purely friends with no romance and marriage involved?

I can see that, I guess I've just gotten to the point of knowing the games way too well. My apologies for the resistance to your comment.

It's cool, no need to apologize for anything :3

[Loki Laufeyson]

If IS wanted us to be able to marry the siblings, they should've just not marketed them as siblings in the first place. I don't want to marry Leon, Takumi, Sakura, or Elise -- who all call you older brother/older sister even if you marry them in the story. I don't want to marry Marx, Ryouma, Camilla, or Hinoka -- whom you cal older brother/older sister even if you marry them in the script. Just … focus on sibling love or romantic love. You can't have it both ways.

The thing bugging me about Nohr, is that i always assumed Kamui and the other royals knew that Kamui wasnt really blood related to them.

The implication that they didnt realize that is something that IS really dropped the ball on. Cuz im all thinking its a Theon Greyjoy situation and its....ummm...not and...

~*Awkward*~

Edited September 7, 2015 by Loki Laufeyson

[Sunwoo]

But even if the Nohr siblings knew that Kamui was adopted, I still don't think that makes it okay. Maybe I can see the case for Marx since he is the oldest and would've probably been of certain age by the time Kamui was adopted. But most people who've been adopted and grow up with their adoptive siblings don't want to pork them after growing up with them like siblings. At the very least, it's weird for Leon and especially Elise.

My problem is that being able to marry your siblings, whether they are adoptive or step-siblings or whatever, feels like a perversion of family love. Because they were marketed as your siblings, as your family you grew up with, and most of us do not want to pork the people we believe are our family.

[eclipse]

Ey.

Sorry for my relative FE noobiness.

Also I kinda wanna mention this to everyone that I was around during the older Fire Emblem games, it's just that my brother told me how good Awakening was, so I decided to play it, now I wish I had played it back then...

It's NEVER too late to start! IIRC, 7 and 11 are on VLC. The rest can be obtained through other means which we will NOT help you further with. Google exists for a reason.

---

WRT how Fates did sibling marriage. . .no. I would've been perfectly happy if the royal siblings were left as platonic options.

IMO it fucked with the impact of the choice that was made in the beginning of the game.

[Refa]

Awakening; I specifically mention Awakening here because there are a lot of issues unique to this specific game and it's the only FE that I have a hard time enjoying. It's cool that people like it, but there's so much in the game that doesn't appeal to me (over emphasis on growth units, characters that I'm not as invested in as characters from past games (also everyone is so young in Awakening, which is definitely part of the problem), pair up as a whole, spartan map design and zerg rush strategies of the enemy units, everything related to the marriage aspect including S supports (which I didn't feel worked well from either a gameplay or a story telling standpoint), etc.). Fates is looking to fix...some of the gameplay issues but not the narrative ones.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Refa

[Anacybele]

But even if the Nohr siblings knew that Kamui was adopted, I still don't think that makes it okay. Maybe I can see the case for Marx since he is the oldest and would've probably been of certain age by the time Kamui was adopted. But most people who've been adopted and grow up with their adoptive siblings don't want to pork them after growing up with them like siblings. At the very least, it's weird for Leon and especially Elise.

My problem is that being able to marry your siblings, whether they are adoptive or step-siblings or whatever, feels like a perversion of family love. Because they were marketed as your siblings, as your family you grew up with, and most of us do not want to pork the people we believe are our family.

And here, folks, is exactly why I always found pairings like Geoffrey x Elincia weird. Stated to have been adopted siblings that grow up together, but can get married, wut. I've said this to people a lot of times, but they still don't seem to get where I'm coming from. And I feel the same way here about marrying Corrin to the Fates siblings. I'm not marrying him/her to any of them because of that, not even Ryoma whom is definitely looking to be my favorite character in this game by a long shot. <3

It's like IS is afraid that if they make certain characters not able to be the Avatar's spouse, fans will be upset and complain. They're being too cautious, seriously.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Anacybele

[Loki Laufeyson]

But even if the Nohr siblings knew that Kamui was adopted, I still don't think that makes it okay. Maybe I can see the case for Marx since he is the oldest and would've probably been of certain age by the time Kamui was adopted. But most people who've been adopted and grow up with their adoptive siblings don't want to pork them after growing up with them like siblings. At the very least, it's weird for Leon and especially Elise.

My problem is that being able to marry your siblings, whether they are adoptive or step-siblings or whatever, feels like a perversion of family love. Because they were marketed as your siblings, as your family you grew up with, and most of us do not want to pork the people we believe are our family.

Well yeah, you have a point. But i figured it was presented in a way that was actually different from what you are even saying here. (like, Kamui being basically a ward for Garon and treated very coldly and only visited by the Nohr royal siblings and having a more distant relationship with them than that.) So when it was a more like adoptive family situation, i was all "ohh ehh ok. Thats more awkward than id like..." but was able to just sorta shrug it off. Now knowing what i know, its... ; /

Y u do dis, IS?

It's NEVER too late to start! IIRC, 7 and 11 are on VLC. The rest can be obtained through other means which we will NOT help you further with. Google exists for a reason.

---

WRT how Fates did sibling marriage. . .no. I would've been perfectly happy if the royal siblings were left as platonic options.

IMO it fucked with the impact of the choice that was made in the beginning of the game.

Yarrr. Huge. Narrative. Issues. Im gonna have to rewrite Nohr as it is to not be so damn uhh...eehhhh, so i can have the MU i want.

Hey, i second that its not too late! I just found FE12 like hella freaking recently and im playing it off and on. It be a bit tricky.