I finished AA: Dual Destinies (Spoilers)

[Calmy]

Did anyone read that "spoilers" title on the thread, thank you so much, i don't want any person screaming "Oh my fucking god, you piece of shit you spoilered me this game" when there was a warning, right there on the title of the topic, anyway, i'm an AA fan, i can't deny it, i love the characters, i love the interactions between each character, the story, the music, just about everything in this game is pure gold, very few games (that i have played at least) managed to make me feel good, happy, sad, angry, etc.

I consider this series a magical franchise, that i hope it keeps going and going even after i die, so, recently i was playing AA: Dual Destinies and i finished that game also recently, and in my opinion, i can say, it's fucking awesome, from the music to the witnesses, dialogue was really incredible, but for me, the most shocking in this game was the identity of the Phantom, i never thought that Bobby Fulbright, of all the possible witnesses, he was the guilty of both the assassination of the mother of Athena, Metis Cykes aswell the one from Clay Terran.

What it really bothered me is that we never see the true face of the Phantom, i know he is pure "I don't have an identity, i always worked assuming the role of another person lalala", and his face would probably be of a person that nobody would care, but considering he is the main antagonist of the game, seeing his face was at least something to feel rewarded, hell, if Florent showed everyone his gray hair, i'm sure as hell that the Phantom should have revealed his face.

Now, with the thing of Athena, i have seen plenty of topics about her character, and there's always two factions, the first one where everyone agrees with her, and the second one where they think of her as a useless Mary Sue, and if you ask me in what faction i am, well, in neither, i don't consider this character bad by all means, i think the game developed her well in the emotional part, but in the story part, well, that's another story.

You see, the thing that mainly bothered about her is how she didn't tell Phoenix about the UR-1 incident, this incident was incredibly important in the last case, as well the second to the last case, because they are connected, i thought that she wasn't trusting Phoenix at all when it comes to her past, but she probably had her reasons, she didn't wanted to drag Phoenix into the problems of her past, but even then, i felt that every bit of information was needed, for precaution, either way, everything went well at the end of the game.

So, what can i say about DD?, it's a really great game, while my personal favorite is still JfA because it's fucking awesome, DD comes close, Capcom really did a good job with this game, and i hope that AA6 can be even better.

[Original Alear]

You like Justice for All the most? Even with Big Top?

[Thane]

You liked Dual Destinies? How? The writing is stale and about as subtle as a fireworks show, 5-5 has more plot holes than a Swiss cheese, the fanbase speculated that Fulbright would be the final villain from day one, Athena offers nothing of value to the story other than a contrived plot, like not mentioning trying to free Blackquill even though that's all she supposedly cares about, and he's one day away from execution towards the end, and the writers took a dump on Apollo's character development and loose plot thread from the last game.

Really, I'm worried that the same people are in charge of the sixth game. I love this series and hope for a miracle, but they're simply not good writers.

[secondworld]

To be honest, I feel Dual Destinies was a step up from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.

Ultimately I have similar problems with both games story-wise, exactly the same in some cases, but I feel this game had better cases overall(again, this is in comparison to AJ:AA) and a much better cast. Also Apollo got more development here than his own game.

What confuses me is that both Investigations games were far better than AJ and DD, I'm not sure how that happened.

the fanbase speculated that Fulbright would be the final villain from day one

but they're simply not good writers.

Really now? I never saw anyone react with anything but surprise at the reveal, let alone guessed it immediately.

I'd be tempted to agree, but like I mentioned before, the Investigations games had good writing, the second one especially, so I'm just confused.

[Calmy]

You liked Dual Destinies? How? The writing is stale and about as subtle as a fireworks show, 5-5 has more plot holes than a Swiss cheese, the fanbase speculated that Fulbright would be the final villain from day one, Athena offers nothing of value to the story other than a contrived plot, like not mentioning trying to free Blackquill even though that's all she supposedly cares about, and he's one day away from execution towards the end, and the writers took a dump on Apollo's character development and loose plot thread from the last game.

Really, I'm worried that the same people are in charge of the sixth game. I love this series and hope for a miracle, but they're simply not good writers.

Okay, i'll be honest here, the ending was lackluster, like, really fucking lackluster, it was completely predictable and bland (I knew that Phoenix would scream Objection!) and every single character was too damn happy after all the shit in the last case, not saying that this didn't happened, but they at least recognized how dangerous and cruel was each case, the ending of T&T was fantastic, this also applies for JfA and the first one, hell, even the ending from AJ was better.

And while the character of Athena was sometimes bland, i felt sorry for her, i was genuinely worried in all the history, especially in the last part of Case 4 when they found her fingerprints on the lighter, these are my personal experiences with the game and since i haven't played an AA game like in years (Except for Investigations 2), i could adapt pretty quickly to the game, the music did a good job also (Damn, have you heard the Reminiscence?, that thing is just feels train in a nutshell).

In all honesty, i couldn't care less about Blackquill, he was mostly annoying, but he had some good lines, and i liked his "Oh my god, my emotions are rampant!", so, there are some good things and bad, but as i said, with the passing and fluid of the game, i didn't have any trouble, i enjoyed what i played, even though this game has some flaws, what you can't deny is that the music is fucking awesome, if the quality is like that in AA6, i will forgive them any plot mistake.

And yes, i like JfA, it's my favorite game and it will remain like that, nothing will change my opinion about that awesomeness, it has Franziska Von Karma for fuck's sake, for that reason (and many others) i give JfA the title of the best AA game.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Demifiend

[NinjaMonkey]

and the writers took a dump on Apollo's character development and loose plot thread from the last game.

Apollo didn't get any character development in AJ, so this is a step up. Also, that plot thread is very, very minor so I don't see why you are getting your knickers in a twist about it.

Oh wait, you're Thane - never mind.

[Parrhesia]

5-5's ending was kind of a dud after a hell of a build-up. Honestly, so much of it was just that they made the Phantom impossible to take seriously once fear~~~~~~~~ came into play. Like it was great. And then you see that the fear is the only emotion not going away on that one scene, which imo was clever as fuck. Then it just... goes downhill.

I liked 5 a lot, but I wouldn't say it's one of the better games in the series. A lot was just the way overexaggerated breakdowns tbh.

And lmao Fulbright's reveal was not telegraphed at all, come the fuck on, you're just trying to look smart by saying that.

I will say, though. The fucking black locks. They skeeved me the fuck out in 4, still do, and seeing them on someone I trusted? That was rough, deep down. Kay literally had to get me to not (save and) ragequit on the spot. The plot ... cleared the matter up a little too quickly, I'd say. Or rather clarified their meaning. It should've been a bit more organic... but still. Fuck me, man. Black fucking locks.

And yeah, Apollo did get character development here, far moreso than in his own game. It still wasn't his game, though - let's be real, he's been overshadowed by Phoenix in both 4 and 5 - but is that such a bad thing?

6 is gonna be great. I'm hyped the fuck up.

[Augestein]

I played DD when I was too injured to move and I still thought it was boring as hell. Blackquill I thought was pretty lame, and they tried to hard to make him "mysterious and honorable" when he just comes across as incredibly condescending-- like more than any other prosecutor in the series sans Godot. I'll try to break down how I felt about it.

Characters: I was not particularly pleased with any of the new characters. Robin was alright I felt, and that's about it. Fulbright was okay at first, but his ending absolutely ruins his character beyond redemption. Everyone else is wacky to the point of irritation in this one. In the older ones, characters were kind of quirky and some of them had outlandish behavior, but that seems to be ALL of them at this point that are so over-the-top it's annoying. Athena seems like she'll be okay, but I have a couple of problems with her.

Super prodigy. Seriously, I hate this trait given to characters at almost every given turn, and the worst part is that she doesn't show any more skill than any of the other lawyers despite being a prodigy. Compare her to Franziska for instance? She really doesn't do anything clever that anyone else couldn't have done far easier than her in her cases. Even worse, is that they try to tie this into her "development" which ends up being kind of stupid. So she's trying to save Blackquill, the guy that's right across from her, and she doesn't tell Apollo nor Phoenix, her boss, what she's trying to do? Why not? It's one of those things that drives me crazy in a lot of Japanese video game stories. Characters never feel compelled to say the elephant in the room despite the fact that there is no reason to actually hide the info. As a matter of fact, telling them would be beneficial because the characters could actually do something about the problem sooner rather than later.

Personality: Athena, being a character created in DD, seems to suffer the same problems that everyone else does in DD. They are absolutely insane and not in the good way. They don't feel like people that can actually function in society anymore, they simply take their gimmick and practically bludgeon the player in the head with it into submission-- whether they accept it or just get turned off from the character themselves. That said, there is one thing I like about Athena, her main color is yellow so now the Phoenix Wright team consists of the primary colors of painting.

Gimmick: I like that each defense attorney has their own gimmick, but the mood matrix is really handwavey and hard to justify, especially since it's supposed to be the most "hard science" out of all of them. At least Phoenix's is a magical one and so is Apollo's, but Athena's isn't, and really slows down the process of the court cases and doesn't really add much to them. Especially because you can't fail them either, so it ultimately ends up being a waste of time. And boy did DD have a problem with the cases in this one.

All of them are dragged out to annoying levels with someone going "HOLD IT" and then the screen flashes like four times and someone says something else. Every case pretty much plays out the same way with different characters and the like. All of them are ALWAYS three days no matter how nonsensical the third day ends up becoming, It's pretty dreadful, and it ends up making cases more annoying than they should be.

Investigations were a bit smoother in this one I'll admit, but everyone is so dag blasted chatty that they feel like they take longer-- and they might actually, because of how much everyone yammers on in DD. This might be why some people that have an outlandish personality might skirt into obnoxious territory because they get more screen time than older ones where the character would come in, be weird and kind of funny, and then be whisked off about 15 minutes later.

Finally, for me personally, I hated how they kept going on about the DARK AGES OF LAW, but they only really had like 2 examples of people really affected by it. Sure, they had the school cases with the "the end justifies the means," but really? We're going with that school as an example? What about characters like Karma for instance? Wasn't he doing the same thing years ago? They really didn't clear up a lot about the dark ages of law, and this actually had a decent amount of potential, but somehow clearing Blackquill makes it okay. Ugh.

I'm not even sure how I feel about another one because I didn't really like AJ too much, and Investigations was that great IMO, though I didn't play 2 for obvious reasons, and DD I felt was worse than Investigations and AJ. So the next one will have to be outstanding to get my attention.

[Thane]

Ultimately I have similar problems with both games story-wise, exactly the same in some cases, but I feel this game had better cases overall(again, this is in comparison to AJ:AA) and a much better cast. Also Apollo got more development here than his own game.

What confuses me is that both Investigations games were far better than AJ and DD, I'm not sure how that happened.

Really now? I never saw anyone react with anything but surprise at the reveal, let alone guessed it immediately.

I'd be tempted to agree, but like I mentioned before, the Investigations games had good writing, the second one especially, so I'm just confused.

Apollo hardly got any development at all, since it was all leading to 5-5 where he gave up on confronting Wright after the latter gave the most far-fetched theory to how the criminal could've escaped without any real proof. It's yet another example of Yamazaki and his team's horrible writing: if the killer escaped from a moving platform going at high speeds, you need solid proof of that, NOT proof that there's a man crazy enough to jump out of it according to a psychological evaluation - that means NOTHING.

I never liked the Ace Attorney Investigation games for the same reasons I don't like Dual Destinies. The writing is stale, the cases are convoluted and simply less interesting (the last part is strictly subjective, I'm well aware), the cast is super bloated, which is best demonstrated in AAI: 2-5 where you've got Lang, Edgeworth, Kay, De Killer, Gumshoe, Hikari Mikagami, Yumihiko Ichiyanagi, Bansai Ichiyanagi, Shimon Aizawa, Ema Skye, Regina Berry, Will Powers, Penny Nichols, Ryouken Hoinbou and Mikoko Hayami all appearing and having several lines - no writer in that short amount of time can make them all stand out, and that's without mentioning the villain. It's awkward how they're all just standing there, marveling at Edgeworth's magical logic. On that matter, what is Kay's role in that game? Why is she in that game?

People, myself included to give myself a nice pat on the shoulder, thought it was suspicious that they'd add a new detective when there already were to established one. It was an easy-to-spot plot twist, especially given that he was the one closest to Blackquill.

Okay, i'll be honest here, the ending was lackluster, like, really fucking lackluster, it was completely predictable and bland (I knew that Phoenix would scream Objection!) and every single character was too damn happy after all the shit in the last case, not saying that this didn't happened, but they at least recognized how dangerous and cruel was each case, the ending of T&T was fantastic, this also applies for JfA and the first one, hell, even the ending from AJ was better.

And while the character of Athena was sometimes bland, i felt sorry for her, i was genuinely worried in all the history, especially in the last part of Case 4 when they found her fingerprints on the lighter, these are my personal experiences with the game and since i haven't played an AA game like in years (Except for Investigations 2), i could adapt pretty quickly to the game, the music did a good job also (Damn, have you heard the Reminiscence?, that thing is just feels train in a nutshell).

In all honesty, i couldn't care less about Blackquill, he was mostly annoying, but he had some good lines, and i liked his "Oh my god, my emotions are rampant!", so, there are some good things and bad, but as i said, with the passing and fluid of the game, i didn't have any trouble, i enjoyed what i played, even though this game has some flaws, what you can't deny is that the music is fucking awesome, if the quality is like that in AA6, i will forgive them any plot mistake.

And yes, i like JfA, it's my favorite game and it will remain like that, nothing will change my opinion about that awesomeness, it has Franziska Von Karma for fuck's sake, for that reason (and many others) i give JfA the title of the best AA game.

The game also tends to forget a few important things, such as Trucy being kidnapped. I don't know about you, but I had to be remembered about that. When it happened to Maya in 2-4, it was ALWAYS Phoenix's primary concern, and the writing conveyed a sense of desperation - here, he's only concerned about saving Athena when his own daughter has been kidnapped.

Athena is another shining example of the Yamazaki team's writing: she's bland and convoluted. There's just nothing to her, and if you take a minute to think about all the things that don't make sense about her character, chances are you won't be able to stop. For instance, how did a super shy, traumatized shut-in who didn't go to school end up taking two degrees at the same time by the time she's 18 in Europe (or America if you're so inclined, take your pick)? Keep in mind she had only seven years to do so, and she didn't start immediately (even if she did, it wouldn't have made a lick of sense anyway) since Phoenix was the one who inspired her to become a lawyer during his disbarment.

Heh...Franziska is one of the reasons why I consider Justice for All the black sheep of the original trilogy, but to each their own. 2-4 is an amazing case though, there's no denying that.

Finally, for me personally, I hated how they kept going on about the DARK AGES OF LAW, but they only really had like 2 examples of people really affected by it. Sure, they had the school cases with the "the end justifies the means," but really? We're going with that school as an example? What about characters like Karma for instance? Wasn't he doing the same thing years ago? They really didn't clear up a lot about the dark ages of law, and this actually had a decent amount of potential, but somehow clearing Blackquill makes it okay. Ugh.

I'm not even sure how I feel about another one because I didn't really like AJ too much, and Investigations was that great IMO, though I didn't play 2 for obvious reasons, and DD I felt was worse than Investigations and AJ. So the next one will have to be outstanding to get my attention.

"The Dark Age of the Law" is one of the things that is unanimously considered a complete failure by the fanbase. It's supposed to be the main theme of the game but it's never delved into, and only referenced by characters as this abstract phenomenon. Not to mention it doesn't take Manfred von Karma nor Kristoph Gavin into account, and only focus on Phoenix and Blackquill, and somehow clearing their names would clean up the entire justice system and stop people from forging evidence...what? That's incosistent and unrealistic.

And then, of course, the game takes its time to ignore its own premise and lets Athena use her magic powers to sense emotions even though the people in the courtroom suspects her of forging evidence, using a device only she can use - and that's some bloody well-founded concern! This happens in the case that's supposed to start redeeming the justice system, and they do so by going against the people's wishes.

And lmao Fulbright's reveal was not telegraphed at all, come the fuck on, you're just trying to look smart by saying that.

It has nothing to do with being smart and everything to do with being used to reading, playing and recognizing tropes and a writer's style. Are you telling me you didn't even raise an eyebrow when he shocked Blackquill in case two? Really?

Edited September 13, 2015 by Thane

[Parrhesia]

It has nothing to do with being smart and everything to do with being used to reading, playing and recognizing tropes and a writer's style. Are you telling me you didn't even raise an eyebrow when he shocked Blackquill in case two? Really?

Yes, I raised an eyebrow and thought, "Mm, you know, I bet this is a foreign spy from 20 years before the plot..."

[Calmy]

Apollo hardly got any development at all, since it was all leading to 5-5 where he gave up on confronting Wright after the latter gave the most far-fetched theory to how the criminal could've escaped without any real proof. It's yet another example of Yamazaki and his team's horrible writing: if the killer escaped from a moving platform going at high speeds, you need solid proof of that, NOT proof that there's a man crazy enough to jump out of it according to a psychological evaluation - that means NOTHING.

I never liked the Ace Attorney Investigation games for the same reasons I don't like Dual Destinies. The writing is stale, the cases are convoluted and simply less interesting (the last part is strictly subjective, I'm well aware), the cast is super bloated, which is best demonstrated in AAI: 2-5 where you've got Lang, Edgeworth, Kay, De Killer, Gumshoe, Hikari Mikagami, Yumihiko Ichiyanagi, Bansai Ichiyanagi, Shimon Aizawa, Ema Skye, Regina Berry, Will Powers, Penny Nichols, Ryouken Hoinbou and Mikoko Hayami all appearing and having several lines - no writer in that short amount of time can make them all stand out, and that's without mentioning the villain. It's awkward how they're all just standing there, marveling at Edgeworth's magical logic. On that matter, what is Kay's role in that game? Why is she in that game?

People, myself included to give myself a nice pat on the shoulder, thought it was suspicious that they'd add a new detective when there already were to established one. It was an easy-to-spot plot twist, especially given that he was the one closest to Blackquill.

The game also tends to forget a few important things, such as Trucy being kidnapped. I don't know about you, but I had to be remembered about that. When it happened to Maya in 2-4, it was ALWAYS Phoenix's primary concern, and the writing conveyed a sense of desperation - here, he's only concerned about saving Athena when his own daughter has been kidnapped.

Athena is another shining example of the Yamazaki team's writing: she's bland and convoluted. There's just nothing to her, and if you take a minute to think about all the things that don't make sense about her character, chances are you won't be able to stop. For instance, how did a super shy, traumatized shut-in who didn't go to school end up taking two degrees at the same time by the time she's 18 in Europe (or America if you're so inclined, take your pick)? Keep in mind she had only seven years to do so, and she didn't start immediately (even if she did, it wouldn't have made a lick of sense anyway) since Phoenix was the one who inspired her to become a lawyer during his disbarment.

Heh...Franziska is one of the reasons why I consider Justice for All the black sheep of the original trilogy, but to each their own. 2-4 is an amazing case though, there's no denying that.

"The Dark Age of the Law" is one of the things that is unanimously considered a complete failure by the fanbase. It's supposed to be the main theme of the game but it's never delved into, and only referenced by characters as this abstract phenomenon. Not to mention it doesn't take Manfred von Karma nor Kristoph Gavin into account, and only focus on Phoenix and Blackquill, and somehow clearing their names would clean up the entire justice system and stop people from forging evidence...what? That's incosistent and unrealistic.

And then, of course, the game takes its time to ignore its own premise and lets Athena use her magic powers to sense emotions even though the people in the courtroom suspects her of forging evidence, using a device only she can use - and that's some bloody well-founded concern! This happens in the case that's supposed to start redeeming the justice system, and they do so by going against the people's wishes.

It has nothing to do with being smart and everything to do with being used to reading, playing and recognizing tropes and a writer's style. Are you telling me you didn't even raise an eyebrow when he shocked Blackquill in case two? Really?

Yeah, it was kinda weird, like, when Maya was kidnapped in JfA, Phoenix was like "Oh shit, oh shit", at that point he could do anything to rescue Maya, to the point of defending the "killer" of the game, but when Trucy was kidnapped he was like "Nah, it's ok, everything will be solved, no problem", i'm a fair man, and while i appreciated many things of Dual Destinies, this plot hole is evident as fuck, i know Phoenix has getting older and everything, but that doesn't mean he can become "Everything is happiness and flowers" that sickens me to no point, the same man who didn't cried to the death of his mentor, and the same one who was genuinely worried about Maya in JfA is now someone who doesn't give a shit.

The Dark Age of Law was fucking annoying, you know, the concept itself sounds interesting, they could have implemented this shit in the right order, but the execution fails, like, because Phoenix used a fake evidence and Blackquill getting arrested without further investigation are the causes of the Dark Age of Law?, hell, then that would be the sweetest dark age of law in history, considering that before the "Dark Age" there was Manfred von Karma, you know, the same one who would do anything to win a case, even as far to killing someone (Like Gregory Edgeworth).

And let's not forget about Redd White, and (in a certain way) Godot, hell, even Miles Edgeworth went as far as to fake evidence in order to win some cases, we have so many cases to present about the time before the Dark Age, that the last one is seemingly getting really pretty compared to the shit Phoenix has faced before, *sigh*, man, as i said before, i like this game, the dialogue and some interactions were good but, i have to give you the reason, it has many plot holes, and things unexplained.

The another thing that pisses me off is that Phoenix has the "I will only tell Apollo about Trucy when the time comes", like hell, weren't they all "We should trust each other, we should always speak about the truth", what truth?, Athena didn't told Phoenix a shit about her childhood until she was arrested, Phoenix didn't told Apollo a shit about the fact that Trucy is his Sister, and that Lamiroir is his mother.

This shit happens when Shu Takumi isn't directing the main line, huh?, hell, i will not say that he is perfect either, there were some things unexplained in his games, but this new writer is just fucking up the little credibility AA has, and you know what, i'm tired that every game is now getting "Friendly to newcomers", i don't mind that, the Investigation scenes, the notes, and everything else made the game much more easier, it actually saved time in order to focus on the story.

But when that story is getting many plot holes, it becomes harder to explain them in the sequels, hell, you might not even find a way to explain them at all and just leave it as it is, Athena as a character was, as you explained, something pretty unrealistic, i thought that the facade of "Franziska Von Karma is the prosecutor elite with 13 years" couldn't make too much sense in the story, but since she is the daughter of Manfred, she has credibility with the attitude and just about everything.

Despite the fact that she graduated as a prosecutor with 13 years, she was probably raised as that since the beginning, Athena has (as you said) 11 years, and after the UR-1 Incident, she decides to study until she becomes a lawyer with 18 years old, the problem with that?, she isn't exactly the daughter of a prodigy (At least in the world of law) so, this game is telling us that with 7 years (And remember that Athena didn't went to school before UR-1) of apparently school, some skip grades here and there you can now be a lawyer.

I'm not saying that a story with fantastic elements can't be counted (Remember the Magatama, the "Summon the soul of the dead into the body of a living being" with Mia), but when that time gap of 7 years can't be explained, they just happened magically, it loses credibility, if only Athena was a little older, many of the problems could have been fixed, and after all the shit i said about this, i still like AA5.

I guess i'm just the suck cocker of anything that has "Ace Attorney" on the title, i played them all and they helped me in certain parts of my life, so that's why i always appreciated this series above many other things, i don't know you but give Yamazaki another try, maybe he got stressed about trying to write his first AA story in the new portable console, maybe in this new entry he can redeem himself, there is still Hope, or that's what i would like to believe.

[NICKT™]

DD has been the worst in the series for me. The first three were great, okay and then great again, I loved Investigations and am looking forward to one day sitting down to the fan-translated sequel and I chugged through Apollo without much of a hassle.

I'm not sure if it's as I'm getting older I'm becoming more critical but I suppose in an industry that I've longed so much to be apart of creating that I can't help but see every stupid flaw and design choice that ran so rampant in DD.

I barely remember much of the game but I think the only case I really enjoyed going through was the first and parts of the fourth, the rest were bordering on painful.

It makes me sad to think that the two I enjoyed most I pirated, that's a burden that'll never leave.

[Thane]

Yes, I raised an eyebrow and thought, "Mm, you know, I bet this is a foreign spy from 20 years before the plot..."

You're going out of your way to misunderstand me. All I said was that the fanbase speculated Fulbright would either be a villain or the final villain from the first time we saw him due to the nature of his position; the details came later once we played through the game, and as such there was never any form of surprise for me or a lot of other people when he was "revealed" to be the Phantom.

Really, it's not unlike what people did with the two first trailers of Fire Emblem: Fates and predicted several things correctly even though there wasn't necessarily a lot of information to go on.

Also, if it had been 20 years before the story, then Athena wouldn't have been born yet, which would've made it pretty damn hard for her to murder someone. Not even Yamazaki or his team write that poorly.

I guess i'm just the suck cocker of anything that has "Ace Attorney" on the title, i played them all and they helped me in certain parts of my life, so that's why i always appreciated this series above many other things, i don't know you but give Yamazaki another try, maybe he got stressed about trying to write his first AA story in the new portable console, maybe in this new entry he can redeem himself, there is still Hope, or that's what i would like to believe.

I sure hope he redeems himself; I adore the series, but Yamazaki is not a good writer, and that's all that matters in a franchise like this. His work in the Investigations spin-off never performs over mediocrity, with weaker characters, poor villain motives, bloated cast and stale writing - anybody remember Quercus Alba staying to debate with Edgeworth even though he could leave at any time, further incriminating himself? I certainly hope he has improved over these last few years, but I think it's a safe bet to say he hasn't.

I'll still buy the game day one, but that's more out of blind loyalty than any real expectations.

DD has been the worst in the series for me. The first three were great, okay and then great again, I loved Investigations and am looking forward to one day sitting down to the fan-translated sequel and I chugged through Apollo without much of a hassle.

I'm not sure if it's as I'm getting older I'm becoming more critical but I suppose in an industry that I've longed so much to be apart of creating that I can't help but see every stupid flaw and design choice that ran so rampant in DD.

I barely remember much of the game but I think the only case I really enjoyed going through was the first and parts of the fourth, the rest were bordering on painful.

It makes me sad to think that the two I enjoyed most I pirated, that's a burden that'll never leave.

I picked up the first game in the summer of 2012, and Ace Attorney completely blew me away. The next time that happened was around the same time next year, when I picked up Persona 4. There are plenty of good stories out there, and there are far more to come I'm sure, but the industry needs to prioritize getting some decent writers with a genuine passion for video games. Anyway, what I meant to say was that I don't think age has anything to do with it; sure, if you're younger chances are you've read fewer books, or just have a smaller repertoire of stories to draw parallels to, but it shouldn't stop people from ignoring blatant flaws and poor storytelling.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask: didn't anyone here react to 5-5 being a carbon copy of 1-5? Since the man is much more eloquent than I am, I'll quote Bad Player of the Court Records forum to summerize it:

Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D]discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D]insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor [Person D], but actually [Person A].

Edited September 13, 2015 by Thane

[Rapier]

By the way, I've been meaning to ask: didn't anyone here react to 5-5 being a carbon copy of 1-5? Since the man is much more eloquent than I am, I'll quote Bad Player of the Court Records forum to summerize it:

Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D]discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D]insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor [Person D], but actually [Person A].

Some cases have similar structures to others. On the original trilogy, all first cases are about culprits incriminating innocent people and showing up as the first or second witness, all second cases are related to an important partner of the main character (AA 1-2 is about Maya, AA 2-2 is about Maya, AA 3-2 is about the Kurain Urn, which is related to her culture, which is related to her), all third cases have nothing to do with the story and serve as filler, all final cases (I'm dismissing 1-5 because it was added later) are about personal issues the main character faces, usually about his past, and how they bring a solution to them (on AA1, Phoenix's objective to "save" Edgeworth; on AA2, Phoenix saving Maya from kidnapping; on AA3, his past with Dahlia and Maya being in danger).

I couldn't put it eloquently, and it is likely that I made a mistake somewhere in that line of reasoning, but the games follow a pattern, sometimes changing something slightly here and there, but sticking with the "plan". It's normal.

anybody remember Quercus Alba staying to debate with Edgeworth even though he could leave at any time, further incriminating himself?

Nevermind the fact that he was in front of the other country's ambassador and a couple of authorities, being questioned for a crime against Palaeno's own right-hand man? I think it'd be worse for his reputation if he were to stay quiet. He needed to give an explanation. And knowing Alba's arrogant personality, it is understandable why he chose to engage with Edgeworth instead, so it feels in-character instead of forced for the plot's convenience. Actually, Edgeworth was very lucky on finding incriminating evidence against Alba, because until then there was none and Alba knew it.

By the time he realized Edgeworth wasn't such an easy opponent, Lang had his authority withdrawn.

It's yet another example of Yamazaki and his team's horrible writing: if the killer escaped from a moving platform going at high speeds, you need solid proof of that, NOT proof that there's a man crazy enough to jump out of it according to a psychological evaluation - that means NOTHING.

Isn't that what Wright does all the time? See 3-2. He only caught Luke Atmey because he slipped in his own testimony, because there was no proof Atmey was DeMasque, nor that he had visited the victim! And as far as I remember, on 5-5 Phoenix shows evidence proving that it did happen after showing his theory.

[Alastor15243]

I was really disappointed by Blackquill. He was interesting the way they did him, to be sure, but the trailers and the initial introductory scenes set him up as something far, FAR more awesome: a prosecutor who was an ACTUAL convicted murderer who loves to play mind games with everyone he can, and who's being tasked with prosecuting cases because he's really good at his job and the dark age of the law has the prosecutors' department so corrupt they don't care if a convicted murderer is manipulating the court solely for the amusement of getting innocent people locked behind bars. They basically introduced HANNIBAL FRIGGIN' LECTER in prosecutor form, AND THEN THEY HAD THE SHEER NERVE TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME.

I was so pissed.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Thane]

Some cases have similar structures to others. On the original trilogy, all first cases are about culprits incriminating innocent people and showing up as the first or second witness, all second cases are related to an important partner of the main character (AA 1-2 is about Maya, AA 2-2 is about Maya, AA 3-2 is about the Kurain Urn, which is related to her culture, which is related to her), all third cases have nothing to do with the story and serve as filler, all final cases (I'm dismissing 1-5 because it was added later) are about personal issues the main character faces, usually about his past, and how they bring a solution to them (on AA1, Phoenix's objective to "save" Edgeworth; on AA2, Phoenix saving Maya from kidnapping; on AA3, his past with Dahlia and Maya being in danger).

I couldn't put it eloquently, and it is likely that I made a mistake somewhere in that line of reasoning, but the games follow a pattern, sometimes changing something slightly here and there, but sticking with the "plan". It's normal.

All stories follow similar patterns, especially ones within the same genre; I'm not claiming cases don't borrow ideas or characters from each other. However, this is an exact carbon copy, with an identical premise with an identical resolution; you don't see me complaining about Juniper Woods being the defendant twice in the same game because the premises are very different.

Nevermind the fact that he was in front of the other country's ambassador and a couple of authorities, being questioned for a crime against Palaeno's own right-hand man? I think it'd be worse for his reputation if he were to stay quiet. He needed to give an explanation. And knowing Alba's arrogant personality, it is understandable why he chose to engage with Edgeworth instead, so it feels in-character instead of forced for the plot's convenience. Actually, Edgeworth was very lucky on finding incriminating evidence against Alba, because until then there was none and Alba knew it.

By the time he realized Edgeworth wasn't such an easy opponent, Lang had his authority withdrawn.

The game blatantly says that he could walk away whenever he wanted, and he wanted to hurry to the airport, yet he stays. The fact remains is that they weren't in court, they were questioning someone with diplomatic immunity without any solid proof, and he kept incriminating himself in the longest finale of any game. It's nonsensical, sloppily written, and even if it weren't it's still a cop-out excuse to say "oh yeah, he was just arrogant". He had nothing to win and everything to lose by staying.

Isn't that what Wright does all the time? See 3-2. He only caught Luke Atmey because he slipped in his own testimony, because there was no proof Atmey was DeMasque, nor that he had visited the victim! And as far as I remember, on 5-5 Phoenix shows evidence proving that it did happen after showing his theory.

Wright takes risks that can be proved by evidence by simply changing the way you look at things; sometimes he gets lucky and sometimes he's wrong, that's part of the game's charm, and I won't deny that. However, here he is in the final case, up against Apollo who went full renegade, and they shove in a very poor excuse of a theory without any solid proof which Apollo immediately accepts, thus ruining any attempt at his character development. It's also a matter of how the very question itself is formed; Edgeworth of all people wouldn't accept the theory that just because there's a psychological evaluation of someone mad enough to jump is proof positive that it happened. It's so awkwardly phrased and out of character for him, since he'd logically ask for SOLID proof, like prints, recordings or anything along those lines.

Speaking of recordings, do you guys remember the video tape in 5-5? You know, the one that proves that the ever-illusive Phantom had not only been on the premise during the murder seven years ago, but also wore an easily recognizable jacket and was injured? And this went undiscovered for seven years because the police - and FUCKING EDGEWORTH who was working on setting Blackquill free - didn't know how to rewind it, I guess.

[BrightBow]

Be it as it may be, Dual Destinies will stick in my memory as the game were the main villain, whose entire stick it that he would go to extreme lengths to ensure that he never leaves any traces behind... ended up being defeated because of a piece of evidence that contained his very own finger prints that he delivered to the police himself, as if he was just kinda hoping that they wouldn't bother to actually check them. As far as stories requiring uncharacteristic behaviors in order to be resolved go, this is pretty outstanding. It doesn't exactly help that he didn't really have a reason to rig the trial in the first place.

Edit: It's also memorable for being a game were a supposedly sympathetic character sabotages a resolution for a hostage situation involving his very own partner and faces no consequences for it because... ...the end justify the means? I think the game wasn't very good with it's themes.

Edited September 14, 2015 by BrightBow

[Calmy]

Be it as it may be, Dual Destinies will stick in my memory as the game were the main villain, whose entire stick it that he would go to extreme lengths to ensure that he never leaves any traces behind... ended up being defeated because of a piece of evidence that contained his very own finger prints that he delivered to the police himself, as if he was just kinda hoping that they wouldn't bother to actually check them. As far as stories requiring uncharacteristic behaviors in order to be resolved go, this is pretty outstanding. It doesn't exactly help that he didn't really have a reason to rig the trial in the first place.

Edit: It's also memorable for being a game were a supposedly sympathetic character sabotages a resolution for a hostage situation involving his very own partner and faces no consequences for it because... ..."the end justify the means" apparently. I think the game wasn't very good with it's themes.

And you know what's funny, Phoenix could have lost the case if it wasn't for that piece of evidence, so, in a certain way, if Fool Bright was a little smarter, he could have walked free with all the tranquility of the world, but nope, showing the evidence that could cause his doom was the right way!, and that isn't the funny part, the funny part is that Le'Belle (Or whatever the fuck was called) had a much, much better plan than Fulbright, for starters, he knew where to escape, how to kill, the time, etc.

He was just about to say "haha" to everyone, and he lost everything for two things, first, throwing the mask to the water, and second the evidence he gave to lawyers, honorable mention to his partner that fucked up his plan, and also his great grandpa, you know, he could simply asked what was inside the chamber, or do it on the night where everyone is snoring, this is the main problem of the game, the killers are less convincing than others in the series, not because they are bad, it's because they leave out too many details that a killer shouldn't do.

Just take a look at Luke Atmey, Furio Tigre, Shelly Dekiller, or Mimi Miney, if it wasn't for their testimonies (Luke, Furio), their past (Mimi) or the client (Shelly) the case would have been unsolved, here, the evidence outright tells you what happened in a certain way, it doesn't help that the first two cases (The cutscenes) tells you right away who the fuck is the killer, the DLC case where the accused is a fucking animal, the only case worth mentioning is probably 3, and even then, you just have to use the logic "If we assume that Hugh killed the teacher, it wouldn't make sense since he was close to the archery club, therefore you can't do crap shit, Robin couldn't either because she was busy working on the statues, and Juniper obviously not because she is the one being defended, and almost every person that you defend is almost always the good guy (Except for Matt Engarde, but c'mon, Maya was being kidnapped, and it was more like an order), that leave Pr. Means as the only one who could kill her.

In past AA games, you could sorta figure it out some things, but you never guessed the: "Why?" and "How?" of the situation, and this was extremely important, thing that Dual Destinies had trouble facing, but in favor to the latter, when you proved that Athena was innocent, you could obtain a verdict of "No Guilty" in one of the endings (5-5), even though The Phantom escapes, but either way, you proved her right, and that was the important thing.

[Anouleth]

I remember what bugged me about DD was Widget. What exactly is the point of Widget blurting out what Athena is thinking? Isn't a complete inability to hide your emotions kind of a poor quality in a lawyer? I mean, it's not like Ace Attorney is exactly delivering subtle, restrained performances. When a character is angry, the game usually makes it absurdly, abundantly clear through their exaggerated body language. And Athena is a main character; we often get told her thoughts directly! So the only purpose of Widget is to make an already unsubtle game even less subtle and some very weak humor when Widget blurts out what Athena's thinking and embarrasses her.

Also the ending was sickeningly cheesy and lame and only made worse by their refusal to actually indict a "real" character in a murder. It's just a copout.

[Thane]

Be it as it may be, Dual Destinies will stick in my memory as the game were the main villain, whose entire stick it that he would go to extreme lengths to ensure that he never leaves any traces behind... ended up being defeated because of a piece of evidence that contained his very own finger prints that he delivered to the police himself, as if he was just kinda hoping that they wouldn't bother to actually check them. As far as stories requiring uncharacteristic behaviors in order to be resolved go, this is pretty outstanding. It doesn't exactly help that he didn't really have a reason to rig the trial in the first place.

Edit: It's also memorable for being a game were a supposedly sympathetic character sabotages a resolution for a hostage situation involving his very own partner and faces no consequences for it because... ...the end justify the means? I think the game wasn't very good with it's themes.

Well, there's that...and the video tape containing footage of said villain wearing an easily distinguishable as well as being wounded - this somehow went undiscovered for seven years, even though Edgeworth had been trying to free Blackquill for years. I know that the police in Ace Attorney are usually portrayed as being incompetent, but they've never been THIS bad before; not checking a recording? Really? And they can't blame it on not seeing him considering he's all alone right in the middle of the picture; there's no possible excuse.

[Calmy]

Well, there's that...and the video tape containing footage of said villain wearing an easily distinguishable as well as being wounded - this somehow went undiscovered for seven years, even though Edgeworth had been trying to free Blackquill for years. I know that the police in Ace Attorney are usually portrayed as being incompetent, but they've never been THIS bad before; not checking a recording? Really? And they can't blame it on not seeing him considering he's all alone right in the middle of the picture; there's no possible excuse.

What i found is that Edgeworth, i repeat myself E-D-G-E-W-O-R-T-H, the same one who never outlooks any kind of evidence, overlooked a piece of evidence that was practically critical and decisive during the case shows that he either slipped that out, or that the police is fucking incompetent, i'm inclined on the latter, also, what i do found weird is that, nobody bothered to read that Number 2 in the Video Tape that showed both Clay and Starbuck, how the fuck could they have overlooked something important as that?, so many plot holes here, *sigh*, i hope AA6 doesn't have the same quantity of bullshit that AA5 had in this department.

[blah the Prussian]

Well, the OPs opinion seems to have changed rather rapidly. Honestly the whole hostage situation was the most lackluster for me, especially when the perpetrator apparently faced no justice whatsoever, despite kidnapping being one of the big three of crimes.

[secondworld]

Well, the OPs opinion seems to have changed rather rapidly. Honestly the whole hostage situation was the most lackluster for me, especially when the perpetrator apparently faced no justice whatsoever, despite kidnapping being one of the big three of crimes.

But Aura was shown in a detention cell during the ending cutscene, implying that she did.

[Calmy]

Well, the OPs opinion seems to have changed rather rapidly. Honestly the whole hostage situation was the most lackluster for me, especially when the perpetrator apparently faced no justice whatsoever, despite kidnapping being one of the big three of crimes.

Don't get me wrong, i still love this game, it has some good things, i'm pretty much in a love-hate relationship, i'm still a cock sucker for anything Ace Attorney related.

[Rapier]

Something I actually liked about the Edgeworth spin-offs and DD is that the main characters make wrong guesses and assumptions, and sometimes the opposite side is right. In the original trilogy, Wright was always right and the prosecution was always misinterpreting the evidence or not seeing the big picture. For me it is a plus because they become more human, prone to mistakes and working toward fixing them. On AAI2 2-2, Edgeworth is convinced about who the killer is more than once, only to find himself wrong later and switch his opinion as more evidence arrives. On DD the lawyers get the wrong idea of what happened and find out their thesis for defending their clients is actually wrong. If anything, this is something I want to see in the next games.