Some guy on YouTube's opinions of Awakening

[-Cynthia-]

I don't really feel that lowman L+ is necessarily discouraged though, since all I really fielded are like, Robin, her 2 kids, and some drop-in pairup partners and functioned just fine. All the early exp went to getting Robin through Hero into Bow Knight asap before promoted units exist.

FE12 L/L+ I feel is the only game I've played so far that REALLY discouraged lowmanning. I heard 14 too, but I don't have my hands on that one yet.

From what I've heard, that's also just Nohr in FE14 specifically. Hoshido doesn't have the enemy skill configurations to prevent Ryouma(or whoever but easiest choice) stomp.

[Garnef]

1. Lunatic mode is too hard

2. Using only one character (Avatar) is way too easy (he knows about Seth in FE8 but he doesnt seems to like that game either)

3. Worst levels in the series

4. Quote: ''Most of the maps, especially later on, have enemies charge you from all angles, forcing you to power your way through instead of relying on strategy.''

5. No griding (makes the game too easy).

6. Dlc makes him unconfortable

1) Subjective

2) Subjective

3) Subjective

4) Analysing flawed gameplay aspects. The only objective point here.

5) Subjective

6) Aaaaand Subjective

Are we just using this topic to mock some random youtuber's opinion on something?

Now I'm not saying I like or dislike Awakening, my opinion on it is quite neutral, mind you, but still, what.

EDIT: Noticed that it's not as much of an issue later on in the thread. Neat.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Nexas

[Thor Odinson]

From what I've heard, that's also just Nohr in FE14 specifically. Hoshido doesn't have the enemy skill configurations to prevent Ryouma(or whoever but easiest choice) stomp.

Nice to hear I can just solo with fav

[Rizziah]

It's really bad on Reddit.

Reddit hates everyone, though, so I suppose that makes sense.

I go on /r/fireemblem regularly and this video hasn't even posted there, nor have I ever seen mention of this guy.

EDIT: Just went back a few posts to find it, it's less about shitting on him and more about what he did, which I think is fair, and it's not nearly as bad as you described it.

Edited October 10, 2015 by GoldenMapleLeaf

[Jagged Jagen]

I've watched whoisthisgit for some 7 years and I do consider myself a fan of his work. In the comment section, he did elaborate on the bullet points in the OP:

My biggest problems with Awakening are Robin, the option to level grind, the map design. Lunatic mode is way too difficult if you try to build up a whole team, but if you focus most of the EXP onto Robin, it becomes too easy. Using one character rather than a whole team for most of the game feels so wrong to me. I know some people will say that it was possible in previous games, such as with Seth in FE8, (I'm not too crazy about that game either, by the way, I don't think level grinding should ever be an option in FE, it destroys the flow of the game) but it was NEVER as bad as it is in Awakening with Robin, it feels like the game was designed around the character specifically.

As for the map design, it's perhaps the worst in the series. Most of the maps, especially later on, have enemies charge you from all angles, forcing you to power your way through instead of relying on strategy. I think the grinding option is to blame here, it's like they expect you to build up your units elsewhere, but the problem with this is: how much level grinding is enough? Should I grind as little as possible, to make the game manageable, or do I level grind as much as I like and risk making it too easy? This is why I think there should be a limited amount of EXP in Fire Emblem, because I don't want to decide how much EXP I need, the game itself should decide that with its design. And in Lunatic mode, the random Risen are so powerful, you pretty much have to buy DLC, which makes me feel very uncomfortable.

But despite all this, I still had fun with the game if I just forgot about these faults and had fun crushing every enemy with Robin, as wrong as it all felt in the back of my mind.

It's really bad on Reddit.

Reddit hates everyone, though, so I suppose that makes sense.

I've actually had rather pleasant experiences on reddit, and I don't think they were overly negative or positive towards his quote.

[Nym]

1) Subjective

2) Subjective

3) Subjective

4) Analysing flawed gameplay aspects. The only objective point here.

5) Subjective

6) Aaaaand Subjective

Are we just using this topic to mock some random youtuber's opinion on something?

Now I'm not saying I like or dislike Awakening, my opinion on it is quite neutral, mind you, but still, what.

EDIT: Noticed that it's not as much of an issue later on in the thread. Neat.

No, like I said, I like this guy and his contents but he came out of nowhere with his ''Awakening is kinda a spin-off game''. At the end of each of his video, he always came up with a question, a theory or more commentary and that was about Awakening for this video.

I made this topic because I wanted to know if anyone thought the same thing or was agreed with him, not for mocking him.

I've watched whoisthisgit for some 7 years and I do consider myself a fan of his work. In the comment section, he did elaborate on the bullet points in the OP:

I've actually had rather pleasant experiences on reddit, and I don't think they were overly negative or positive towards his quote.

​​

Thanks! My copy past didn't work well yesterday...

[Irysa]

2. Lunatic+ is one of the few times lowmanning is discouraged in the series.

Absoloutely not true. F-Robin with Chrom in her pocket still completely destroys Lunatic+ once you get her going. You don't even need to bring in Lucina and Morgan unless you want to, but they do positively benefit reliability in various circumstances, and make it possible to get Tiki. The fact that most reliable and replicable Lunatic+ strategies revolve around Robinstomp is testament to this fact.

Only FE12 actually dissuades lowmanning because it is a ridiculously player phase orientated game on higher difficulties. Speed Rigged Knight!MU stuffed with Dracoshields can certainly trivialise the first third of the game, but the abundance of problematic enemies, reinforcements and side objectives emphasise the importance of making use of every single unit to the most of their ability.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Irysa

[eclipse]

Sorry, I was in a hurry so I made a quick title. (Should I change it? Like ''Awakening, a spin-off game?'')

"Some guy on YouTube's opinions of Awakening" would be better, IMO. Because that's exactly what this is.

Unfortunately, he doesnt explain at all. After that, this is 4. (his quote) but I think because the objective in all maps is to rout the enemy

It's "rout enemy" or "defeat boss" (imagine if Chapter 19 was the former instead of the latter). I also think that throwing out whatever opinion without explaining the logic behind it is bad.

*sees explanation posted later*

If Luantic is too easy with just Robin, and too hard with a full team, that means a middle ground exists somewhere - I use something like three combat pairs and a lot of support, and that's about right for me. It also sounds like he's complaining about something that's optional (grinding) - if you can't figure out what to do about grinding, that tells me the numbers/tactics side is lacking, since no-grind is possible. And those super-powerful Risen in Lunatic skirmishes? IMO, that's there so that the player can't Risen-grind for later chapters (remember, grinding is part of his complaints). So not only do I disagree with his opinion, I disagree with his mindset. Rather than complain about this, find something that works.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Rather than complain about this, find something that works.

This is more or less the entire point of Awakening. You have so much space for making tactical decisions that affect the difficulty of the game that it has one of the most customizable difficulties I've ever seen- not to mention the greatest difference between easiest possible and hardest possible (neither of which have likely been discovered yet).

All it takes to take advantage of that is enough knowledge of the game to know whether doing something will make it easier or harder.

[Nym]

"Some guy on YouTube's opinions of Awakening" would be better, IMO. Because that's exactly what this is.

It's "rout enemy" or "defeat boss" (imagine if Chapter 19 was the former instead of the latter). I also think that throwing out whatever opinion without explaining the logic behind it is bad.

*sees explanation posted later*

If Luantic is too easy with just Robin, and too hard with a full team, that means a middle ground exists somewhere - I use something like three combat pairs and a lot of support, and that's about right for me. It also sounds like he's complaining about something that's optional (grinding) - if you can't figure out what to do about grinding, that tells me the numbers/tactics side is lacking, since no-grind is possible. And those super-powerful Risen in Lunatic skirmishes? IMO, that's there so that the player can't Risen-grind for later chapters (remember, grinding is part of his complaints). So not only do I disagree with his opinion, I disagree with his mindset. Rather than complain about this, find something that works.

Thanks, maybe it's will be more clear with this title. Also my mistake about the objectives but I always end up killing every single unit on the map so I kinda forgot about ''defeat the boss''.

If only he could have save this for a whole video instead of just the end + comments section.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Nym

[Irysa]

This is more or less the entire point of Awakening. You have so much space for making tactical decisions that affect the difficulty of the game that it has one of the most customizable difficulties I've ever seen- not to mention the greatest difference between easiest possible and hardest possible (neither of which have likely been discovered yet).

All it takes to take advantage of that is enough knowledge of the game to know whether doing something will make it easier or harder.

That doesn't refute criticisms about whether or not the game is fundamentally too easy/too hard/whatever.

Claims about "fluid difficulty" that rely on player input to modify challenge don't hold up under real scrutiny. Any number of arbitrary measures can be taken with any game to make it harder. The fact I can choose to play something as simple and easy as Kirby Epic Yarn under the constraints of a 100% run where I restart the entire game if I ever take any damage and have a very strict time limit (or some other equally silly rule) does not mean the game is not easy. Difficulty is about what you're actually required to do. The fact you can make Awakening Lunatic harder by choosing to deploy more units or banning second seals, or make Hard Mode more interesting by banning Pair Up doesn't make it immune to criticism that lowmanning is too good. I'll agree that the game facilitates this kind of self imposed difficulty relatively well (it's a strength of the series really), but games like Shadow Dragon don't get a free pass for having absurdly powerful and abundant Warp just because you can choose to not use it, so we shouldn't enable a double standard with Awakening.

I think there's probably a problem with any game if optimal play makes the game less fun for the majority of the playerbase.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Irysa

[Baldrick]

F-Robin with Chrom in her pocket still completely destroys Lunatic+ once you get her going.

I was under the impression that Counter made that strategy luck-based, and that bow units were useful on the EP for avoiding Counter.

[Irysa]

It's only luck based insofar as that an overabundance of counter on units without 2 or 1-2 range weaponry will cause issues on enemy phase before Robin reaches Galeforce, as once Robin has that she can prioritise Counter units from 1-2 range on PP then move away and continue to kite. Robin can attain ludicrously high avo very quickly because of support bonuses and being overleveled, and combine that with chunky defence it means that only Hawkeye Luna+ enemies will be able to do any damage with their attacks, so basically, only Counter can result in death. As such, as long as you engage the enemies correctly she'll be fine. Check out Kuroi's thread if you haven't already.

Additionally once Robin has Galeforce and Sol, she can go with a Bow build herself by going through Assassin (for Pass) then Sniper (kudos to kuroi for suggesting that for my own Lunatic+ playthrough). That simplifies matters even more.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Irysa

[Baldrick]

It still sounds like at the very least, lowmanning requires you to use more strategy and pay more attention to the enemy than in the first 11 games in the series.

[Irysa]

Only for the first 6 or 7 maps. After that Robin has probably done a reclass then promoted, and is so wildly ahead of the enemy stat curve that you'll wallop all the way to the last 3 chapters without much of a hassle (since the enemies actually start to catch up around then)

To put things into perspective, it's not terribly unlikely to have a Robin with some capped stats in a promoted class before fighting Gangrel, Veteran is that stupid.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Irysa

[Czar_Yoshi]

That doesn't refute criticisms about whether or not the game is fundamentally too easy/too hard/whatever.

Claims about "fluid difficulty" that rely on player input to modify challenge don't hold up under real scrutiny. Any number of arbitrary measures can be taken with any game to make it harder. The fact I can choose to play something as simple and easy as Kirby Epic Yarn under the constraints of a 100% run where I restart the entire game if I ever take any damage and have a very strict time limit (or some other equally silly rule) does not mean the game is not easy. Difficulty is about what you're actually required to do. The fact you can make Awakening Lunatic harder by choosing to deploy more units or banning second seals, or make Hard Mode more interesting by banning Pair Up doesn't make it immune to criticism that lowmanning is too good. I'll agree that the game facilitates this kind of self imposed difficulty relatively well (it's a strength of the series really), but games like Shadow Dragon don't get a free pass for having absurdly powerful and abundant Warp just because you can choose to not use it, so we shouldn't enable a double standard with Awakening.

I think there's probably a problem with any game if optimal play makes the game less fun for the majority of the playerbase.

In the case of KEY, you're holding yourself to a set of rigid rules for the duration of an entire playthrough- I'm not really seeing how that counts as "fluid difficulty". As for Warp, that's a completely all-or-nothing affair with no middle ground- also not really fluid. I never said anything about banning Pairup or Second Seals or any of that, either.

See, those are challenge runs, and they're all based around you holding yourself to either doing or not doing something, and if you stop holding yourself to that rule, the difficulty snaps right back where it was before. Awakening would more or less do the same if you banned pairup at first, then decided not to later and started allowing it- and that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about being able to make decisions throughout the game, and having to make them regularly, that aren't reversible, have a small impact, and add up over time. Make decisions that make the game too hard? You don't make it easier by breaking off from those decisions and no longer following them, you do so by making different decisions later.

All of these decisions are choices, and most of them are between several positive things- promote Chrom or Lissa, train Miriel or save the exp for someone else, etc. Contrast that with things like use Warp or don't use Warp- on one side, you get a sequence break, on the other side, you get... No sequence break. And it's a decision you can change at any point in the game; eg not what I'm talking about.

I'm inclined to agree with your last statement on the basis of Pokemon *coughPrimalGroudoncough*, but I think it needs amending to say the majority of the competitive playerbase, because high learning curves also aren't that great.

[Irysa]

In the case of KEY, you're holding yourself to a set of rigid rules for the duration of an entire playthrough- I'm not really seeing how that counts as "fluid difficulty". As for Warp, that's a completely all-or-nothing affair with no middle ground- also not really fluid. I never said anything about banning Pairup or Second Seals or any of that, either.

Because you can adjust those restrictions as you like. The restrictions are "fluid", I could decide to make it 2 hits, change the time limit, etc. For SD, Warp can be inbetween, ie, 2 Warps per turn aren't allowed, Marth may not be Warped, Warps cannot be within 10 tiles of the Throne, ETC. The Awakening cases are just further demonstrations of the idea.

See, those are challenge runs, and they're all based around you holding yourself to either doing or not doing something, and if you stop holding yourself to that rule, the difficulty snaps right back where it was before. Awakening would more or less do the same if you banned pairup at first, then decided not to later and started allowing it- and that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about being able to make decisions throughout the game, and having to make them regularly, that aren't reversible, have a small impact, and add up over time. Make decisions that make the game too hard? You don't make it easier by breaking off from those decisions and no longer following them, you do so by making different decisions later.

Choosing to deploy more than you actually need constitutes a challenge run as well. Choosing to not use DLC to grind, or using limited renown fall under it too. In the case of pair up, you can adjust the rule there as well, in only allowing particular levels of supports to engage in pair ups or x amount of combat per map whilst paired up, etc. It's as flexible as EXP investment, because until one reaches the late sections of the game (or earlier if you're playing on Lunatic+ and have lower stats), it's not really that hard to just reclass Robin to Sorc and have them solo maps with Nos as long as they were being used at least as much as everyone else. You can certainly break off from current restrictions, especially if you decide to just DLC grind.

All of these decisions are choices, and most of them are between several positive things- promote Chrom or Lissa, train Miriel or save the exp for someone else, etc. Contrast that with things like use Warp or don't use Warp- on one side, you get a sequence break, on the other side, you get... No sequence break. And it's a decision you can change at any point in the game; eg not what I'm talking about.

I don't really see how this holds. EXP in no grind is technically finite (final map infinite reinforcements aside), your decisions about how to allocate EXP or who to utilise have the same "finality" to them as whether you used Warp early on or not. If you didn't, you've got lots of Warp. If you did now you have less Warp so you may not be able to Warpskip the maps you need to. ETC.

I'm inclined to agree with your last statement on the basis of Pokemon *coughPrimalGroudoncough*, but I think it needs amending to say the majority of the competitive playerbase, because high learning curves also aren't that great.

The competitive nature of single player games is too arbitrary to use it as a descriptor. I'd rather just limit it to people who are fairly knowledgable and experienced with the game, enough to utilise optimal strategies, but have a disaversion to using them because they make the game less enjoyable.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Irysa

[Augestein]

I just think that the maps could be better in Awakening, and the difficulty branching. And I hate the power creep in this game. The power creep is so real it's disgusting. If your characters get unlucky and get lame level ups, it can really ruin a run. I don't recall growths ever mattering that much in a Fire Emblem. While some characters might not have as much use without growths, they could have some use. Also skill acquiring is pretty lame in this game too.

I also don't think it's fair for people to say here that "the difficulty is fine" because they've literally played the game to hell and back, shared strategies with one another and have knowledge that the standard person 1) doesn't have, 2) might not feel inclined to look up either because it's not explicitly explained how it works (ie, things like say pair up not explaining how it buffs stats and just telling the player "hey, this makes you stronger!". I beat the hardest modes of Awakening, and I can say I didn't feel very accomplished with winning. I probably won't play Awakening in Lunatic+ or Lunatic again by virtue if I played it again now, I'd have forgotten what turns ambush reinforcements happened etc.

Honestly, I'd have liked to see a Lunatic mode where enemy formations were altered to be more dangerous, not just given super skills like Hawkeye that basically say "you're not allowed to dodge this unit." It kind of annoys me, because the from what I remember of Awakening, the chapters were very lopsided with the first 2-3 turns being the hardest-- either the map ended in 3 turns or less, or the initial threats were completely nullified here. Some might say it saves time, but I'd say it's just a testament to how lame some of the chapters are. It also might have been a better jump if the game gave you plus versions of each mode as you completed them to have a more stable difficulty curve. Normal to Hard to Lunatic to Lunatic+ are crazy. And honestly, I'd argue that even Lunatic to Lunatic+ is less of a jump than Hard to Lunatic, because of the sheer power the enemies have from Hard to Lunatic. The skills can be annoying in plus, but at least the relative power of the enemies is the same.

The first 6 are like... The only chapters I remember. The rest I found just astoundingly mediocre or tedious-- like Yarne's recruitment is just plain annoying. Everyone has an opinion of this game, but I think there's one thing everyone can agree on: THIS game is the definitive fanbase split of Fire Emblem. People might have preferred certain games more than others beforehand, but it was never in such an extreme light here.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Because you can adjust those restrictions as you like. The restrictions are "fluid", I could decide to make it 2 hits, change the time limit, etc. For SD, Warp can be inbetween, ie, 2 Warps per turn aren't allowed, Marth may not be Warped, Warps cannot be within 10 tiles of the Throne, ETC. The Awakening cases are just further demonstrations of the idea.

Choosing to deploy more than you actually need constitutes a challenge run as well. Choosing to not use DLC to grind, or using limited renown fall under it too. In the case of pair up, you can adjust the rule there as well, in only allowing particular levels of supports to engage in pair ups or x amount of combat per map whilst paired up, etc. It's as flexible as EXP investment, because until one reaches the late sections of the game (or earlier if you're playing on Lunatic+ and have lower stats), it's not really that hard to just reclass Robin to Sorc and have them solo maps with Nos as long as they were being used at least as much as everyone else. You can certainly break off from current restrictions, especially if you decide to just DLC grind.

Did I not just say that I'm not talking about rules and restrictions? If it's something you need to consistently hold yourself to (aka anything that can be described as a rule or restriction), it's not what I'm talking about. Yes, you can do challenge runs of Awakening as well, but that's not the point.

[TheSilentChloey]

This is more or less the entire point of Awakening. You have so much space for making tactical decisions that affect the difficulty of the game that it has one of the most customizable difficulties I've ever seen- not to mention the greatest difference between easiest possible and hardest possible (neither of which have likely been discovered yet).

All it takes to take advantage of that is enough knowledge of the game to know whether doing something will make it easier or harder.

I can second that! It took me two years to beat Chapter 5 Lucina on new comer casual :/

[Irysa]

Did I not just say that I'm not talking about rules and restrictions? If it's something you need to consistently hold yourself to (aka anything that can be described as a rule or restriction), it's not what I'm talking about. Yes, you can do challenge runs of Awakening as well, but that's not the point.

Choosing to specifically deploy/utilise more or less characters is a restriction though and that falls under what you were trying to describe too.

If your argument is something along the lines of "I trained a lot of units so I don't have any juggernauts so I can't just revert to a juggernaut if I don't want to uphold that decision anymore" then that only applies if you also have the additional restriction of not grinding (or abusing Nos).

Edited October 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Melissa]

>>Calling Awakening a spin-off

You can see why this bothers me