Israel vs Palestine- Round I don't even know anymore

[Tetragrammaton]

Christian here, don't see any reason to hate Jews.

Please keep your sweeping generalizations to yourself.

Well, it's history you know.

https://cyprainsfsermons.wordpress.com/2014/11/23/since-jesus-was-a-jew-why-do-so-many-christians-hate-jews/

First Christians, later Nazis, and now Arabians.

Anyway, as I see it, there will never be peace between the Palestine and Israel unless:

1. All the Palestine people die.

or

2. All the Israel people die.

or

3. All the Israel people leave the land.

[Jedi]

Christian here as well.

My prayers go out to all the families in turmoil right now, as well as the Israeli government considering they have to deal with the worlds seeming bias against anything they do.

Hopefully this can be resolved in a peaceful manner, although with Abbas and Hamas, I highly doubt it.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Jedi

[dondon151]

Christian here, don't see any reason to hate Jews.

Please keep your sweeping generalizations to yourself.

he really shouldn't. historically, christianity blames the jews for the death of jesus. don't let your feelings get in the way of facts.

Edited October 14, 2015 by dondon151

[Naughx]

Doesn't the Roman officials carry most of the blame for his death too?

Crucifixions were traditionally often used by the roman empire, not by Israelis/Jews. (arbori suspendere)

Edited October 14, 2015 by Naughx

[Rapier]

Even if there was any sort of conflict (if I recall correctly, jews were also persecuted by the inquisition), it doesn't mean that christians hate jews (relevant: the present tense the verb is in). That's a faulty generalization with no basis whatsoever.

I'm also disgusted by how people tend to paint one side as poor innocent victims and another side as mean oppressors all the time. I doubt the situation is so black and white in Israel, if the palestinian group itself isn't to be blamed for most acts, judging from the terrorism and killings of civilians going on Israel that put it in the current chaos to begin with (I always doubt people who make themselves seem like victims, and they're the ones who have been acting most radically). I can't stand around and blame the people who are being attacked and pat the head of those who are attacking, it is illogical. Someone siding with the palestinian group will have to justify these acts and I doubt there is a good justification for plain murder.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Rapier

[-Cynthia-]

Edit: I guess what I am trying to say is that I'm sick of hearing how saying basically anything negative about islam in America can get you lambasted as an 'islamophobe' and can get you in a lot of trouble, but then people willingly stick up for the 'everything-else-that-isn't-100%-Islam-aphobes' over in Palestine, Gaza, and basically anywhere else like they're the oppressed ones. Who are fighting the Jews.

The issue there is that Muslims in Palestine and Muslims in say, Indonesia or those living in the United States are very different. I suspect a great many people are not happy with how the Palestinians have acted overall, but extending that to all Muslims is erroneous.

[Radiant head]

I'm also disgusted by how people tend to paint one side as poor innocent victims and another side as mean oppressors all the time. I doubt the situation is so black and white in Israel, if the palestinian group itself isn't to be blamed for most acts, judging from the terrorism and killings of civilians going on Israel that put it in the current chaos to begin with (I always doubt people who make themselves seem like victims, and they're the ones who have been acting most radically). I can't stand around and blame the people who are being attacked and pat the head of those who are attacking, it is illogical. Someone siding with the palestinian group will have to justify these acts and I doubt there is a good justification for plain murder.

Only one side is being oppressed though. This isn't a conflict of two equal sides. One side has vast economical and military resources, complete media dominance and is backed unquestioningly by the worlds only superpower and the other is a bunch of people who can't even walk to the other side of town freely without having to go through visitation yet are continously refused, by above mentioned superpower, to even speak about how they're treated in the UN.

Doesn't mean that the oppressed side hasn't acted horrifically, or that any side is blameless, but the power dynamic here is fairly one-sided.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Radiant head

[dondon151]

Doesn't the Roman officials carry most of the blame for his death too?

Crucifixions were traditionally often used by the roman empire, not by Israelis/Jews. (arbori suspendere)

yes, the romans were the ones who killed jesus, but the jews were the ones who bore the blame of his death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_deicide

Even if there was any sort of conflict (if I recall correctly, jews were also persecuted by the inquisition), it doesn't mean that christians hate jews (relevant: the present tense the verb is in). That's a faulty generalization with no basis whatsoever.

no, there is a basis for the statement (see above link). it is technically a generalization, but the meaning of hanhnn's statement is quite clearly "christians have a long history of hating jews and many christians still hate jews for the same historical reasons today" and not "literally every single christian hates all jews." you can infer this from context; it's statistically impossible for literally all nazis and arabs to hate jews (there are actually famous examples of nazis sympathetic to jews), but the statements are concise and carry value.

i wouldn't argue with you if you were to say that the chinese hate the japanese, even though many chinese love the japanese (me being one of them). but i wouldn't get all huffy about the generalization when the meaning is clear.

Edited October 14, 2015 by dondon151

[Rapier]

Only one side is being oppressed though. I mean it doesn't mean that the oppressed side isn't committing atrocities, or that only one side is to be blamed for the conflict, but ultimately one you peel back, the power dynamic is fairly one-sided in this conflict.

I realize there are cases on which palestinians are victims, but are these exceptions or the rule? Can we really say Israel is intentionally pursuing muslims in an apartheid-like manner and denying them rights? That seems extreme, judging from the rights they hold, which wouldn't even exist if Israel was nearly as bad as it is painted by oppositors, so from this line of reasoning I can see there is something wrong with the mainstream description of the conflict. One thing is condemning periodic abuses done by parts of israelite authority (which is a condemnable inadmissible act by itself), but claiming the israelite government is intentionally oppressing muslims in the country is taking it to the extreme. The palestinian issue should be addressed without demonizing the whole of Israel, as if it were a simple black and white situation. It doesn't bring proggress to the discussion, it destroys it.

the meaning of hanhnn's statement is quite clearly "christians have a long history of hating jews and many christians still hate jews for the same historical reasons today" and not "literally every single christian hates all jews."

I understood the meaning. The bolded part is the questionable, weak part of his argument that I was addressing (the rest is ok, as I admitted). What makes him think that many christians still hate jews for the same historical reasons today? Did he read it somewhere reputable or is it an intuitive judgment? I'd wager in the latter, which opens a lot of suspicion on credibility, since it doesn't follow logically AND it is a judgment based on something that happened a very long time ago.

So, in the end the claim is meaningless.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Rapier

[Radiant head]

Well I'm not that interested in debating hypothetical viewpoints of other people that you're framing, and I can only speak for myself.

Having said that, I do think merely just pointing out that both sides are attacking each other ignores why this conflict is happening in the first place, and I think that Gaza in its current form is basically an oppressed, open air prison.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Radiant head

[dondon151]

What makes him think that many christians still hate jews for the same historical reasons today?

well, for one, the book of matthew blames jews for the death of jesus

christian antisemitism is not quite the same today as it was at the beginning of the 20th century, but it's still there.

[Snowy_One]

he really shouldn't. historically, christianity blames the jews for the death of jesus. don't let your feelings get in the way of facts.

I can only speak for myself and my experiences but, at least with modern christians, they tend to blame Judas and Herod specifically and even Longinus, the soldier who (at least in lore) pierced Jesus's side with the lance gets off the hook more often than not. Heck, his lance is considered a holy relic and the mere notion that they had it helped restore crusader morale in the first crusade.

The issue there is that Muslims in Palestine and Muslims in say, Indonesia or those living in the United States are very different. I suspect a great many people are not happy with how the Palestinians have acted overall, but extending that to all Muslims is erroneous.

That's sort of the problem though. It's far too common for Christians to get blamed for things like the Crusades and Inquisition when there have been numerous splits and differing philosophies over the years. Even today people are perfectly willing to take things like WBC and use it to claim that all Christians are abortion and gay-hating bigots. Heck, online when people talk about 'religion' and peg it as evil they often don't mean 'religion' so much as 'Christianity in the feudal era'.

[Radiant head]

Outside of some obnoxious new atheist types, I don't see anyone generalizing "all Christians" as being part of the extremist group of current rightwingers. Not nearly to the extent that people generalize Muslims, especially with the racial element, and the "us civilized white people" versus them type of thinking.

[-Cynthia-]

While people do make unfair generalizations about Christians(as people do about any group really), it is probably imporant to realize that in the United States Christians are the majority by a fair margin. Minority groups(such as Muslims) have a lot more to 'lose' in terms of discrimination.

Edited October 14, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[blah the Prussian]

well, for one, the book of matthew blames jews for the death of jesus

christian antisemitism is not quite the same today as it was at the beginning of the 20th century, but it's still there.

Give an example of antisemitism in the west in the last, lets say, 20 years. This antisemitism needs to be both serious and either done by the government or, if not done by the government, approved by them. Finally, the antisemitism needs to be motivated by Christianity, not that they lost WWI or killed Alexander II or whatever.

[eclipse]

he really shouldn't. historically, christianity blames the jews for the death of jesus. don't let your feelings get in the way of facts.

First, if you take another shot at anyone in Serious Discussion in this manner again (whether it be in this topic or another one), I'm automatically warning you. You know better than that.

Second, the Christian communities I've been around support the Jews. Not once have I heard anything against them. Either the churches I've been to are all outliers, or the supposed antisemitism has changed drastically, at least in my corner of the world.

Regardless, this is the Israel/Palestine topic, not the religious debate one, and I'd very much appreciate it if it stays that way.

[Life]

There's something else I want to put in here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m6ux-IeNo4

George Deek is the Israeli Ambassador to Norway and is a Christian Arab. If you have the time to watch, I strongly suggest that you do.

[Irysa]

@previous topic, you people are fortunate you apparently haven't met any International Jewish Conspiracy theorists. I'd like to say those people are just some ridiculous tiny minority but it's quite pervasive in White Nationalist movements (ever growing in popularity), Anarcho-Capitalists (okay these guys are kinda small time), hardline right-wingers who hate everything connected to Marx, Orthodox Christians, and a large amount of Muslims (notably, nations with a high % of Muslim citizens tend to have a large amount of "very unfavorable" views on Jews and a lot of what we would call "Hate Crimes". Esp in European areas with many Muslim immigrants.). Perhaps it's a more common occurance in European areas rather than American? In any case dondon is quite right in pointing out that Jews have historically been blamed for just about everything.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Irysa

[blah the Prussian]

There's something else I want to put in here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m6ux-IeNo4

George Deek is the Israeli Ambassador to Norway and is a Christian Arab. If you have the time to watch, I strongly suggest that you do.

That's actually a perspective I've never considered. Incidentally, it's interesting how he didn't mention the Armenian Genocide.

[Life]

There is something else I want to bring up.

I support my country but I have no problem with being vocal about its issues. Especially during my service.

When I was in basic training, my unit brought a speaker who was a young soldier during 1948 to speak to us. The problem is that he was Lehi. A Jewish terrorist group during the time. Everyone was gung-ho to hear him speak except for me. I told my commanding officer that I didn't want to be present and he told me that I had no option but to sit through it, no matter my political opinion. It felt dirty and started a lot of fights between me and my friends.

A year later, I was in Commanders Course and we went to go visit the Lehi museum in Tel Aviv. Once again, I put my foot down. This time, my commanding officer respected my wishes (we were training to be commanders and not regular soldiers) and I was allowed to wait outside the museum rather than go in.

My point here is that Israel is not infallible. My country makes mistakes. But we are not a country of murderers and thieves.

[Radiant head]

Hamas is scum obviously, but at the end of the day I'm unabashedly pro-Palestine in this conflict.

[dondon151]

First, if you take another shot at anyone in Serious Discussion in this manner again (whether it be in this topic or another one), I'm automatically warning you. You know better than that.

i don't know if you noticed, eclipse, but almost the entirety of this thread is people disagreeing with other people.

[eclipse]

i don't know if you noticed, eclipse, but almost the entirety of this thread is people disagreeing with other people.

Feel free to state what you disagree with and why, but do NOT go beyond that. If you feel you need to imply something about the other person, that is too far.

Will edit in my thoughts about that speech when I finish watching it.

EDIT: First off, that audience needs a tall order of "let the guy finish speaking". It's an interesting perspective on a lot of things, and can go beyond just the Israel/Palestine conflict. I think it's telling that Muslims are victims of the radical Muslims, which is why I don't consider the latter to be Muslims.

Hell, I'd make this required watching every time a First World Fire Emblem Problem comes up on SF (as I think the theme of variety needs to be acknowledged), but alas, I'm not allowed to do that.

Edited October 15, 2015 by eclipse

[blah the Prussian]

Hamas is scum obviously, but at the end of the day I'm unabashedly pro-Palestine in this conflict.

So what exactly do you want for Palestine? There are varying degrees of Pro Palestine, from independent Palestine to independent Palestine with the Green Line to all will be Palestine (which I know you don't support). So which are you?

[Life]

Hamas is scum obviously, but at the end of the day I'm unabashedly pro-Palestine in this conflict.

So if you're pro-Palestinian, do you recognize Israel's right to exist? Because that's one of the biggest issues in attempting a proper peace and the Palestinians don't want to agree to it.