What I personally like about Nohr's story over Hoshido...

[NekoKnight]

What's the waifu wars? Was it when the Nohr children had to fight with other children to stay alive? Since they were children of concubines and such? <--highlight

someone teach me how to spoiler

Yes

By the way, for spoilers type: [spoiler=Spoiler Title] Content [ /spoiler] but remove the space before the slash mark.

[Thane]

There was a disturbance in the internet force, and I have been summoned to discuss this story yet again.

(Everything's pretty much been said already though, but I like adding my particular brand of whining to an otherwise civilized debate)

I agree with all of this. Honestly, it feels like Takumi's biggest "crime" is disliking Kamui and having an attitude … which is actually quite realistic, considering the events that had happened in the game. I'm not saying he's perfect -- he's far from it, in fact.

That's the reason why Takumi is so popular and so many other characters feel hollow; Takumi acts like a normal person would in a world where the most important people either sit on a bunch of secrets without sharing them for no adequately explored reason, or constantly get told what to do. Instead of getting along like a house on fire with everyone instantaneously like most support conversations, Takumi argues, is slow to trust (which he should be considering the shit that's going down) and, you know - acts like a normal guy. Yet in spite of the negative traits (which admittedly do get too negative sometimes to the point of whining), he's still written well, showing different sides of his personality in his supports while he stands on his own in the main story, something that's incredibly rare in this game due to the amount of people competing to wipe Kamui's scaly butt.

This stands in stark contrast to all the princesses, who are all pretty much "stereotypes + Kamui" with no involvement in the main story, and Ryouma is not much better. Although Xander is beyond stupid and one of the many, many reasons as to why Conquest is one of the worst stories ever told, he at least has decent supports.

Conquest's story being dreadful however is, of course, a moot point, since the game itself calls Birthright and Conquest wrong, and they are by all accounts not canon. While Birthright, although overly traditional and lacking any sort of suspense and depth, is closer to a complete game in terms of story (although still with painful "play the correct route to get the answer to X" dialogue shoved into the players' faces), Conquest, however, is not. It answers absolutely nothing, and is even worse than Birthright in how it tries to convince the player to play the right route.

Also, this is just a quick aside, but do we ever find out why Garon kidnapped Kamui? I thought that'd be a major plot point, but as far as I know, the only thing being said about that is when Kamui fights him in Conquest and he says "he felt something", and that's about it. That could mean either Anankos influence or it's supposed to be a hint of emotions. However, Garon and emotions get together about as well as a wound and lemon juice, since that would mean that he'd have the potential to actually be portrayed as a real character, and we all know he isn't. He's a plot device.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Thane

[Alazen]

[spoiler=]Honestly, I say that Takumi's handling shows how Hydra and other Touma elements as Fates actually used them along with the Kamui Worship really drag down the narrative. Takumi would have already had grounds to hunt Kamui's head absent of Hydra corrupting him WoW style. Takumi getting a hate monster along with telling Kamui as a ghost how wrong he was is really going overboard.

Imagine there was no Hydra and Touma (or at least not as we know them). Takumi gets his hand on some magical device that pumps him up yet threatens his life. He comes at Kamui, gets killed in battle, no ghost.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Alazen]

double post

Edited November 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Raccoon844]

It's a shame really. Despite Conquest actually connecting with me at a few points the story overall is the low point of FE:Fates out of the three stories in my opinion. Hopefully the english translation will try to clean some stuff up on it but i really doubt it.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Raccoon844

[Thane]

It's a shame really. Despite Conquest actually connecting with me at a few points the story overall is the low point of FE:Fates out of the three stories in my opinion. Hopefully the english translation will try to clean some stuff up on it but i really doubt it.

There's not much room to improve some of the major problems in a satisfactory manner. For instance, a single chapter takes place in Touma, and that plae is not mentioned afterwards (yes yes, I remember the plot curse), and serves only to show the player that the real mystery and the true path is Revelation.

There is a reason why you can't buy the third path as a standalone game, and that's because there's very little reason to play through the other two routes afterwards. Sure, you get some map variety and altered dialogue, but everything from all the secrets being revealed to the finality of the ending of Revelations show that it's the de facto canon route, and that the other ones are mere distractions. As such, fewer people would buy all the versions afterwards, and a lot of them would've been fine just looking up a walkthrough on YouTube - they knew that, so they released Revelations later as DLC only.

[NekoKnight]

My question is, is Hydra defeated/unable to come back after the events of Conquest or Birthright? Does Hydra just poof away and is never mentioned in the epilogue?

Edited November 20, 2015 by NekoKnight

[JupiterKnight]

He still resides in the Invisible Kingdom. Though at least in ''Birthright'' there are more than a few peculiar things that suggest he could be planning his next scheme.

Like the fact that Gunther and Mikoto's spirits do not appear before Kamui, suggesting that Gunther is alive and that like IK Mikoto is one of his minions. Not to mention that should he strike again there is no pendant that can be used to nullfiy his mind control.

[NekoKnight]

In that case, not only are Conquest and Birthright not the golden ending, they are specifically bad endings.

Edited November 20, 2015 by NekoKnight

[JupiterKnight]

Conquest is better off at the end compared to Birthright as not only does Mikoto spirit appear, but Gunther is a party member with no implied backstabbing. His main secondary pawn should Gooron fail (Takumi) dies in the end so Hydra is left with far less potential for an evil scheme. Even Iago showed that it's possible to retake control over someone who has been brainwashed by Hydra, which is how he has Takumi act as a mole on Birthright and even with Aqua purifying him a second time Hydra can likely retake him exploiting his other issues (feeling inferior to his siblings).

Edited November 20, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Conquest is better off at the end compared to Birthright as not only does Mikoto spirit appear, but Gunther is a party member with no implied backstabbing. His main secondary pawn should Gooron fail (Takumi) dies in the end so Hydra is left with far less potential for an evil scheme. Even Iago showed that it's possible to retake control over someone who has been brainwashed by Hydra, which is how he has Takumi act as a mole on Birthright and even with Aqua purifying him a second time Hydra can likely retake him exploiting his other issues (feeling inferior to his siblings).

The fact that Mikoto doesn't show up in Kamui's near death experience in Birthright really annoys me and even Gunther not showing up as he sadly is most likely dead in the version because Aqua wasn't chased out of Hoshido and thus didn't visit the Invisible Kingdom like she did in Conquest and in doing so saved his life. Not to mention I feel like the scenes and dialogue differences in Conquest were handled a lot better too.

First off for one during the choice if Kamui chooses Birthright Xander is getting multiple hits on Kamui and Ryoma is no where to be found until the last moment (no seriously where the heck was he?), but in Conquest Xander is right beside Kamui and Ryoma only gets in 1 hit that hurts him and then from there Xander interferes and tells him to back off and that right there struck me as him being a better older brother, especially since he has multiple times has been assisting Kamui in telling Garon of his deeds and in giving him back up and has been more relevant than that of Ryoma who appears so late in the story with everyone wondering where he is.

Then two the Rainbow Sage upgrade for the Yatogami is better in Conquest because Leo ends up compromising with Kamui and there weapons both respond to their feelings, but in the other version with Takumi it's just through belief in the Fire Emblem... and that's really a poor way to show a shining moment in the story and it feels half assed as a result.

Lastly three Lilith's death was more realistic in Conquest as we saw Kamui was showing signs of fatigue and is sneaked attacked by a Faceless and Lilith saves his life there, but in Birthright this sequence happens at the beginning of the chapter with Kamui not one bit looking tired and Ganz is RIGHT IN FRONT OF KAMUI and charges at him with an axe and Kamui with a sword and we all know how this goes, but Kamui shows just poor reaction time and Lilith saves him even Xander's speech is better than Ryoma's as he brings up the importance of another ally dieing and how he should comes to terms with that along with him being the leader of the army and if he dies then the rest of them are lost (bringing more emphasis on him being the light within the darkness), but Ryoma doesn't bring up at all of another possible ally dieing.

In fact we know that by Garon's orders Kamui is the leader of the army over Xander, but for whatever reason in Birthright once Ryoma joins you would think he would take charge, but he doesn't and again Kamui doesn't spare any Nohrian soldiers aside from key characters showing his lack of caring about both sides if you ask me and it is instead Ryoma who spares Nohrian soldier lives as shown in the latest translation video from linkmstr and yes Kamui was in the process of being by Lilith's side to be bothered by anything else, but it still goes to show you he has not yet done what is to be expected from a character from both sides and it is just inexcusable and don't even get me started on Zorua's wasted development in Birthright and his down right stupidity for even thinking that Kamui should be the only one to spared while everyone else in the army gets butchered and thinking Kamui would be fine with that. Overall while neither Birthright or Conquest or canon with the true path being Relevations if it were just those two Conquest seems to have more in common with the third path as far as character deaths go (Crimson) and not happening (Gunther and Flora) and even the mention of the Invisible Kingdom to boot.

Edit: My apologies FEF.

Edited November 20, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[blinkingbrave]

Yeah, you've definitely touched on a few points I prefer on Nohr over Hoshido as well.

Tbh, it's been a lil while since I read the story but I'm just gonna go for it anyways...

I was fangirling over the Nohr story with someone, and she pointed out something interesting in regards to Birthright Kamui. Basically, her understanding (which I agree with) of Hosh!Kamui's kinda jarring lack of empathy/sympathy was that Nohr!Kamui, choosing to side with Nohr obv, believes their army isn't all bad/redeemable and also gets to come and understand this further working with the Nohrians but also understands that the Hoshidan army is the morally right in this situation. Hosh!Kamui decides, pretty much in that choice scene, that fighting for Nohr is morally wrong and that's that. The abrupt shift in mentality definitely gets awkward when you compare to Nohr!Kamui though, and the 'moral righteousness' of it (that gets pretty heavy-handed in a few points) all kinda rubs me the wrong way. Probably could've used a few chapters of development like Nohr!Kamui gets for her issues to make it feel less abrupt/more relatable, imo.

I think we might have similar issues with Hosh!Ryouma as well. I think he's interesting on the Nohr route because we get to see that 'this is how it should all turn out, it'll work because I'm good, and it's going to be awesome' mentality challenged, as it feels to me like it realistically should be... but on Hoshido, with Kamui on his side and his mentality unchallenged from the start... he just up and goes on his Chevalier disguise mission, leaves everyone behind with no message, and somehow everything just works out fine. Doesn't help that it pulls a weird (and unfavorable, imo) contrast with Marx, who's visibly struggling and putting work in to keep Kamui alive on early game Nohr.

And blocks that blow Hosh!Ryouma doesn't for some reason? My guess is that it might be to show off that Hosh!Marx is a very real threat that outclasses everyone when he's not holding back and sets up Nohr!Marx as 'the defender,' but that does zip for Ryouma, except maybe accentuate Nohr!Ryouma's temper as his flaw.

Anyways, I don't think I would've found it awkward/vaguely alienating if we only saw Hoshido because things like this aren't necessarily out of nowhere for FE, but Nohr exists and it really shoots down and/or challenges a lot of the 'the side with the most morally right guys always wins' idea and typical video game power fantasy stuff in its entirety. I know for me personally, going from Nohr, where a good potion of the main cast was challenged hard, couldn't just do what they want, and often had a good deal of visible, unavoidable fallout from all of these actions they were somewhat responsible for even as they struggled to prevent them, to Hoshido, where the sense that they're good and everything they do is always right and always works out in the end is pretty strong, there were a few moments on the Hoshido route that bothered me in a way I don't think it would've going the other way around.

Edit: And as for the speech comparison you drew, I think it comes back to one of the base differences between Marx and Ryouma. Marx has had retainers canonically die for him and struggles with the some of the heftier realities of leading a military force, being unable to do what you want, etc. Ryouma... seemingly hasn't had the same issues. It's like they were scared to color the Hoshidans if you chose their side (maybe in order to keep the typical FE story we were promised on Hoshido?). And the Kamui bit I'd probably draw back to Nohr!Kamui's position as their 'heart' being a precarious one even if you chose their side, coupled with the Nohrian royals' (and Marx in particular) dependence on her being their heart, while Hosh!Kamui just being there pretty much solves all the Hoshidans' emotional issues.

Edited November 20, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[FEF]

AbsoluteZer0Nova, I don't want to be that one guy. That asshole grammar nazi.

But I honestly cannot, for the life of me, read your post. I wouldn't be mentioning this if I could.

Periods. Please. A paragraph or two would also be appreciated.

As for the ends of the Hoshido and Nohr routes, they are pretty much downer endings. Hoshido moreso, as Corrin never even visits Touma in that one, meaning the secret basically dies with Azura. I forget which, if any, of the Awakening trio's deaths are canon, but frankly they're a bunch of morons for fighting against Corrin in the first place. Even if they're alive, the secret of the Invisible Kingdom is very, very dead. Hydra has been set back, maybe by months, maybe by years, but there's nobody left to oppose him now.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

As for the ends of the Hoshido and Nohr routes, they are pretty much downer endings. Hoshido moreso, as Corrin never even visits Touma in that one, meaning the secret basically dies with Azura. I forget which, if any, of the Awakening trio's deaths are canon, but frankly they're a bunch of morons for fighting against Corrin in the first place. Even if they're alive, the secret of the Invisible Kingdom is very, very dead. Hydra has been set back, maybe by months, maybe by years, but there's nobody left to oppose him now.

It's Inigo/Lazwald who has the canon death (ouch for Owain and Severa...) and I agree with you on Hoshido having more of a downer ending because also out of all the retainers I felt the saddest for Effie and Harold as they are still alive, but Elise dies and you gotta imagine how they must feel after hearing that news. They're the only exception out of all the subordinates who do end up dying with their lord.

Edited November 20, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Sunwoo]

Who cares which route has the more "downer" ending? They're both downers, honesty, and I really hate this line of arguing where people go "oh, ___ route's ending is sad but ___ route's ending is sadder" because it reeks of either "don't pick ___ route because it's sadder" or "that's why ____ route is better/more meaningful". They both suck, no need to make a competition for it.

Hoshido's ending probably sucks more for people around Kamui, but Nohr's ending sucks more for an entire country in general. Both suck.

[Refa]

What's wrong with a downer ending?

[maybe]

It's Inigo/Lazwald who has the canon death

When? I'm pretty sure you can avoid fighting him altogether.

[Ryo]

Inigo's death is not canon. You can finish the chapter as soon as Marx's defeated without even touching them.

[Thane]

What's wrong with a downer ending?

Downer endings are alright.

Getting blatant (non-canon) bad endings unless you fork over 2000 yen in a game that was supposed to be about choices is not.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Thane

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Inigo's death is not canon. You can finish the chapter as soon as Marx's defeated without even touching them.

While true it doesn't seem like something that Inigo would allow unfortunately.

"We...have decided to protect you! We won't let you die alone..." Link

It's just pretty hypocritical for him to say that and then survive from it and thus that's what makes it look canon and even Oboro's no exception with her romantic affection towards Takumi. You have to think about how the retainers feel about letting their lord dies and them surviving hence why I feel very sorry for Elise's retainers. It's just more likely for the retainers to die first then the lords because they did what they're pretty much loyalty bound to do.

Also to keep in mind is if Lazwald and Pieri were alive they would be going to Xander's side as he is dieing, but they make no such alternate scene and so therefore while you ignore them on screen not killing them chances are one of your units does kill them off screen like it or not. It's clear that the developers didn't intend on Lazwald and Pieri surviving in Birthright otherwise they would have made an alternate scene showing them afterwards anyone who thinks they survived just because they didn't attack them on screen through gameplay mechanics is having wishful thinking.

Edited November 21, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

You have to wonder how this is going to be for a player from Awakening playing Birthright the first time because chances are they could very well end up getting Suzukaze's death (this at least is debatable as they do make an alternate scene of him surviving if Kamui gets a A support) and thinking that Inigo survives like Owain and Severa after battling them only to realize no he doesn't retreat but dies instead.

Edited November 21, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[arvilino]

Downer endings are alright.

Getting blatant (non-canon) bad endings unless you fork over 2000 yen in a game that was supposed to be about choices is not.

I've thought about it and that's incorrect. If someone plays Birthright and/or Conquest through to the end without spoiling themselves on the endings of the other routes most things wrap up as a typical ending to Fire Emblem. While there are character deaths it isn't out of the ordinary for any Fire Emblem game for good/noble characters on opposing sides and even some allies to end up dead(and even in the ending of Revelations that's still the case) and the winning side has better relations with the losing side and helps to rebuild and the losing side isn't leaderless(which is a better state than a couple of previous Fire Emblem games), that isn't really a bad ending.

You'd have to know the endings ahead of time to think there was no choice which isn't how these sorts of games are intended to be played. Play any game with choices with a walkthrough or information of the results of your decisions ahead of time and it'd be the same, if a choice has you lose a character, whole new area or item and you're spoiling yourself and are attempting to pick the results rather than making a choice you'll feel you never had the choice.

Edited November 21, 2015 by arvilino

[Verdande]

Inigo's death is not canon. You can finish the chapter as soon as Marx's defeated without even touching them.

I'll be making a point to have him, Harold and Effie survive then. Inigo's one of my favourites from Awakening and he deserves to survive with Owain and Severa, they earnt their happy endings. Extra scenes/dialogue for those characters would have been nice at the ending if you let them survive, with them talking about what happened and what will they do now with their lives. Just so the player has some extra incentive to avoid killing them for easy Exp (I'll avoid it because I like them).

Is it the same for Takumi's and Ryoma's retainers? Like can they be avoided with some effort? I can't really tell from the videos.

[TheInternetExplorer]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Aqua say "the portal between our world and the IK will close when either Hoshido or Nohr wins the war" or something like that? Then wouldn't Anankos be trapped in the IK? That would make the two non-canon endings less like downer endings.

[FEF]

I've thought about it and that's incorrect. If someone plays Birthright and/or Conquest through to the end without spoiling themselves on the endings of the other routes most things wrap up as a typical ending to Fire Emblem.

I agree that most things wrap up typically, however, what that leaves out is pretty significant.

Birthright is more subtle about it, but let's look at Conquest:

In chapter 15, you fall into a mysterious realm (the IK). Never really mentioned again, despite being of obvious importance. The player may not know what it is yet, but something's obviously up.

By the end of the game, Takumi is possessed by what I've heard translates to "a demon". Now, we all know now that's Hydra. The player doesn't know that, but... would you honestly just accept that? If Nohr was a standalone game, would you just accept that it was any old random demon who just decided to possess Takumi and kill you? Would you not have any further questions about what just happened?

Granted, the player doesn't know how bad the situation is. They don't know all their hard work is going to be erased in a few months/years, when Hydra gets over this minor roadbump and gets back on track for his plan. But there is still an enigmatic world of floating islands out there, and some dark power capable of possessing people. Also slime monsters. Does Nohr ever actually explain HOW Hydra replaced Garon with Gooron, or does Corrin just accept that he is one now?

Any way you look at it, Conquest ends with numerous obvious, ominous threads left looming overhead.