What I personally like about Nohr's story over Hoshido...

[NekoKnight]

All the complaints about Naruto I hear make me glad I bailed when the Uchiha wankery started up.

Speaking of characters being spontaneously pardoned for their villainy...

[JupiterKnight]

The Uchihas are far far worse. Like this isn't even a joke. They literally overtake a manga because of their popularity.

[Ryo]

The narrative doesn't twist itself though, Corrin's approach to the war was forgiven by their siblings which isn't a big surprise considering almost every battle he/she is involved with both before and after the war ends with the opposing side staying alive...

Except there were also many deaths at the same time. Minus the instances where the game explicitly show or mention that the soldiers have been spared during the various battles, the rest are pretty much implied to be dead. By the end of the game, only some key characters are confirmed to have survived. The damage is still visible, of course it definitely could have been worse had Kamui not tried to avoid it. Now, supposing that Kamui isn't their sibling (and they're in fact not even a real one) and is just another enemy commander, do you think they would have forgiven him/her that easily?

Even if you can somehow prove that Kamui could avoid killing a majority of soldiers during and after those battles, that in and of itself is another sign of the writers twisting the story because it requires suspension of disbelief to even conceive. That is near impossible to achieve in a war where the enemies are determined to take you down at the cost of their lives, especially in situations where Garon/Ganz/Iago also happen to be present (which Kamui is proven to be incapable of intervening).

Also of note is the brutality Garon, Macbeth and Ganz. enforce outside the handful of civillians isn't actually much bloodier(it might even be less bloodier considering there were PoWs other than Sakura during the Conquest campaign) than what the typical Fire Emblem game protagonists do to their enemies even story-wise, take for example Elincia in Radiant Dawn where the order to slaughter all the remaining surrendered and retreated Crimean rebels is part of her becoming a better Queen, which also suggests the rest of them outside Ludveck were killed during battle.

That is the point of their argument though. I don't recall any FE protagonist who would unnecessarily eliminate even unarmed civilians. Also, we don't know what would happen to those PoWs to be certain that they'd stay alive forever (or won't suffer a life worse than death), supposing that Kamui fails to assassinate Garon. After all, most of them don't have any political value for fake!Garon to keep around. And let's not forget what happened to Rinka and Suzukaze.

Additionally Nohr clearly isn't supposed to be Thracia. If Nohr was Thracia and the decision to confront Hoshido would have been legitimate if Nohr couldn't survive otherwise, Nohr being the aggressors is intentional. If Someone has so much as seen a trailer for the game with "Glory-seeking Nohr", "Peace Loving Hoshido" its clear what to expect. This also plays into the choices. Hoshido appears the more moral or good choice when it comes to a decision between it and Nohr, which likely is by design. When it comes to games with choices newer players tend to lean towards the good or light side of the conflict, in this case it means more inexperienced players will tend to symphasise with and go through Birthright first. Which makes sense since Fire Emblem is a videogame first and foremost and Birthright is supposed to be a standard light vs. dark Fire Emblem story and a good place to start if its someone's first Fire Emblem game or they aren't experienced with the series gameplay. (Interestingly Conquest's story has some parralels with its own gameplay, its definitely the harder path in both gameplay and in terms of the struggle and regrets Corrin faces throughout the campaign).

Are you certain the war the players engage in is still about "glory-seeking"? None of what you said has changed the fact that the whole invasion that the game portrays is pointless, and is only there for the sake of having a war. There is just no legitimate reason for it to take place, which again is the point of the argument. The game has done a very poor job of explaining why the conflict has been going on for generations. And then when Garon himself died and the slime monster took over (which also include the entirety of Conquest's story), it all became a moot point because of course a monster serving a dragon wanting to destroy humanity would do anything to push the war. Meanwhile, the protagonist assist in said war in order to lead that monster to a certain convenient throne. While everyone else does what they're doing is because the monster says they should. It doesn't even have anything to do with "glory-seeking", so even that one explanation falls apart.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Ryo

[Jedi]

Honestly the part with Nohr that insults me the most is the fact that they advertised it as a "Build a rebellion while appearing to stay loyal" angle and did squat with it.

[Alazen]

The narrative doesn't twist itself though, Corrin's approach to the war was forgiven by their siblings which isn't a big surprise considering almost every battle he/she is involved with both before and after the war ends with the opposing side staying alive, as a result it remains in-line with his/her characterisation rest of the game and if Corrin "avoided" being villified through their normal characterisation in a situation that where acting any differently would villify them, that's sincerity.

Kamui aided Hoshido's conquest no matter how much you avoid that. You going on about Kamui doing a No Kill run doesn't establish anything here considering how I already pointed out how Fates tries to paint Kamui as a super charismatic paragon.

Also of note is the brutality Garon, Macbeth and Ganz. enforce outside the handful of civillians isn't actually much bloodier(it might even be less bloodier considering there were PoWs other than Sakura during the Conquest campaign) than what the typical Fire Emblem game protagonists do to their enemies even story-wise, take for example Elincia in Radiant Dawn where the order to slaughter all the remaining surrendered and retreated Crimean rebels is part of her becoming a better Queen, which also suggests the rest of them outside Ludveck were killed during battle.

Ludveck and his army were shown to be treasonous weeds acting out of contempt for Elincia. Assorted Hoshidan troops were striking at the invaders terrorizing their nation. Fake Garon, Ganz, and Macbeth are all depicted as mustache twirlers with acts like killing prisoner framed to show how dastardly they are. Elincia is not, being noticeably more sympathetic and developed than all 3 of them.

Additionally Nohr clearly isn't supposed to be Thracia.

Yeah, it's like how the Grimleal aren't the Loptyrians since the former were handled worse.

If Nohr was Thracia and the decision to confront Hoshido would have been legitimate if Nohr couldn't survive otherwise, Nohr being the aggressors is intentional. If Someone has so much as seen a trailer for the game with "Glory-seeking Nohr", "Peace Loving Hoshido" its clear what to expect.

Pre-release info pointed to the Hoshido siblings being Kamui's blood relatives. How did that work out? Edited November 30, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

Kamui aided Hoshido's conquest no matter how much you avoid that. You going on about Kamui doing a No Kill run doesn't establish anything here considering how I already pointed out how Fates tries to paint Kamui as a super charismatic paragon.

This is pretty significant. Even if Kamui's own hands aren't covered in blood, he still enables others to kill. Each Hoshidan he defeats is now at the mercy of the Nohrian higher-ups that Kamui knows are psychopaths. A no kill run is patently absurd anyway. I'm pretty sure all the people Elfie impaled on her lance are ex-members of the being alive club.

The recall watching an anime called Peacemaker where the protagonist vowed to never kill. He was portrayed as a morally white character, completely ignoring that his group does routinely kill all their enemies. In fact, one of the antagonists the protagonist defeated and "spared" was executed immediately afterwards.

[Thane]

Really, the whole concept of the Nohr path is absurd. You aid in an invasion to make sure you can kill the invader's leader to avoid killing people. It would have made a tad more sense if Kamui and company were planning on killing Garon BEFORE that happened, and had to build up their forces while appearing loyal, but they don't do that, and what we get instead is a narrative that doesn't even know what it wants.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Too bad by trying to be "Different" that the Nohr story went down the gutter.

So many bad decisions made in the story...

[arvilino]

Except there were also many deaths at the same time. Minus the instances where the game explicitly show or mention that the soldiers have been spared during the various battles, the rest are pretty much implied to be dead. By the end of the game, only some key characters are confirmed to have survived. The damage is still visible, of course it definitely could have been worse had Kamui not tried to avoid it. Now, supposing that Kamui isn't their sibling (and they're in fact not even a real one) and is just another enemy commander, do you think they would have forgiven him/her that easily?

Even if you can somehow prove that Kamui could avoid killing a majority of soldiers during and after those battles, that in and of itself

is another sign of the writers twisting the story because it requires suspension of disbelief to even conceive. That is near impossible to achieve in a war where the enemies are determined to take you down at the cost of their lives, especially in situations where Garon/Ganz/Iago also happen to be present (which Kamui is proven to be incapable of intervening).

At multiple points throughout the game Corrin does act in ways that their intention is shown; sparing their forces in the battles before the invasion, saving them in chapter 18, then again letting them live after the battle and promising to save Hoshido. If we take Fire Emblem as it usually is, this would be considered more than enough to convince recruitable characters to side with you. If Corrin had nothing to do with Hoshido before the events of the game was the main character they still wouldn't join given their position in the war but they would probably think highly of him by the end especially if they ultimately did save Hoshido. The worst Corrin does is win battles against the Hoshido army who either die or survive and then are ordered to be killed, the deaths of the enemy side not being anything out of the ordinary for a Fire Emblem game.

In Takumi's case whenever he died and is in what appears to be some kind of purgatory the characters can view what's happening outside. After being spared and Corrin trying to convince him twice, being saved from the trap in chapter 18, being spared in 23, then watching(from purgatory) Corrin spare Hinoka promising to save Hoshido, attempting to spare Ryouma, defeating Macbeth, Ganz, revealing Garon as a monster and then killing him to save Hoshido and Nohr. Corrin does apologize at the end of the game to both Takumi and Hinoka. They forgive Corrin which given Corrin's actions isn't considering as mentioned there's multiple cases both before and during the invasion where Corrin showed compassion towards them and Hoshido and ultimately proven that they were sincere in their motivations.

That is the point of their argument though. I don't recall any FE protagonist who would unnecessarily eliminate even unarmed civilians. Also, we don't know what would happen to those PoWs to be certain that they'd stay alive forever (or won't suffer a life worse than death), supposing that Kamui fails to assassinate Garon. After all, most of them don't have any political value for fake!Garon to keep around. And let's not forget what happened to Rinka and Suzukaze.

We do know what happens to those PoWs because Sakura is with them and she survives. Just before attacking the Royal Palace Macbeth tries to psyche out Corrin by suggesting they kill them but doesn't(otherwise Sakura would be dead) then when walking through the capital he kills an old woman for slander and Ganz kills a couple civillians before heading to take on the Palace from behind. The PoWs would not have been killed unless they already had been because after this point the chain of battles (25-->26-->27&28) follow consecutively inside the Palace until Garon, Macbeth and Ganz death.

Are you certain the war the players engage in is still about "glory-seeking"? None of what you said has changed the fact that the whole invasion that the game portrays is pointless, and is only there for the sake of having a war. There is just no legitimate reason for it to take place, which again is the point of the argument. The game has done a very poor job of explaining why the conflict has been going on for generations. And then when Garon himself died and the slime monster took over (which also include the entirety of Conquest's story), it all became a moot point because of course a monster serving a dragon wanting to destroy humanity would do anything to push the war. Meanwhile, the protagonist assist in said war in order to lead that monster to a certain convenient throne. While everyone else does what they're doing is because the monster says they should. It doesn't even have anything to do with "glory-seeking", so even that one explanation falls apart.

The motivation for the war is two separate plot points or three if you include Azura and Corrin's use of it to reveal Garon's true form. During chapter 24 Macbeth even states their plan is to kill all of the officials so they can subjugate Hoshido. Which wouldn't be much different from Nohr's surrounding countries, Nohr increasing its influence(Glory-Seeking) was the motivation for the war in the first place and what Macbeth believes is going to happen. Obviously this is no longer the true case(as Slime Garon is going to destroy both Nohr and Hoshido) but Garon's motivation changing part way through the war doesn't render the original reason for starting the war non-existent and doesn't change what the other characters believe.

Nobody but Garon, Azura and Corrin are aware of Garon's intentions during the Conquest route until the end. When Macbeth, Ganz or Xander are taking Garon's orders they believing they're following the guy who wants to conquer Hoshido, not a slime creature who wants to destroy Nohr and Hoshido. Hence why the civillians that are killed in chapter 24 are likely to be the only significant wanton deaths of non-soldiers for intimidation since Macbeth thinks they're going to be ruling Hoshido, not obliterating it.

On a side note the throne itself isn't particularly convenient. It comes from the Invisible Kingdom, Mikoto comes from the Invisible Kingdom, the Prophecy/Azura's Song relating to the conquest path refers to a character deceiving and the Hoshido throne being empty. Considering she is from the Invisible Kingdom Mikoto must be aware of the prophecies. the thrones powers are mentioned very early on before the route split as foreshadowing even though it only has purpose for one route.

Edited November 30, 2015 by arvilino

[Alazen]

It's scary to see a poster defend such shoddy narrative working. It's like how you can expect to find posters over at Battle.net and MMOChampion defending junk like the Lich King's Plan, The Wrynn Dynasty, Warlords of Draenor (especially Grom Didnothingwrong Hellscream), etc.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Alazen

[arvilino]

I'm just pointing out where the game does tell or show something. I've seen with several games that people go overboard with this believing that thinking the game's story isn't good is carte blanche to snipe at anything to do with the plot glossing over or generalising points, even if the game actually does provide some reasoning. Exaggerating like you're a youtuber trying to convince someone a game is the worst thing ever and colouring the perception for people of something they haven't seen for themselves.

A while back I said I don't really care much for the stories in videogames and care more about the gameplay so I only really posted about the main events of each route but the way it continuously came up I took a more detailed look at the story myself I was expecting something along the lines of Eternal Sonata where the characters all operated on moon logic and still managed to write itself into a corner, what did I find? A pretty decent story, it comes together quite well and takes the gameplay into account giving a reason to use both Nohr and Hoshido as areas for battles and presenting confrontations with battles involving and against the the main characters.

I get some don't like the where the story heads but from what is said it half sounds like Corrin is flat out nuking Hoshido or rendering it inhabital, like you're attempting to get revenge on the writer for not villifying Corrin by overexaggerating the damage he or she causes. By the time the game releases in the west people who haven't played it yet but heard about the story will assume Chapter 24 will be the one where Corrin promises to Hinoka "I will save Hoshido" before promptly chopping her head off and her last words being "Thank you Corrin" as her head rolls along the ground.

Edited November 30, 2015 by arvilino

[Pretty_Handsome]

The issue here is that there is NOTHING redeeming about the Nohr story, nothing. It's complete trash and it shows a great deal since it was created after Hoshido was already said and done. Make no mistake, if Fates didn't have multiple paths than Hoshido, first and most complete path, would have been the only one.

Nohr's story feels like they just threw stuff together when nearing completion of Hoshido hence its horrid structure, its poor story, the inconsistencies and the such because someone figured there was more money in splitting the game up. Hence why when you're at the "choice" part it's heavily in favor towards Hoshido and there is literally nothing, other than maybe liking the Nohr siblings, that Nohr has to offer in comparison. Especially after Garon already tried to have you randomly killed already. Multiple times at that.

I would have rather had just Hoshido be the story path as the game heavily hints that there was more to Crimson's story and that Camilla and Leo were meant to join your side officially.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Pretty_Handsome

[NeonZ]

I don't see how the corresponding prophecies for Nohr and Hoshido indicate anything about Hydra's death? They don't lead to Hydra's death either. The prophecies themselves are not the curse to kill Hydra, they're only visions of future events.

The coded text says that the prophecies were made so that someone would kill Hydra. In that case, why would the prophecies coming true not lead to its death?

And even then, nothing indicates or proves that Hydra himself has died, not just the possessed.

The "evil presence" disappears after they're destroyed. Nothing indicates that he survives. If he can just possess water familiars and respawn infinitely like that, why would he ever bother possessing an alive person like Gunther in IK? Takumi is stated to be dead already by the time the Norh final battle takes place (and his body turns into water afterwards just like the familiars). So, no, it's not the same case as Gunther at all.

[Kos]

The issue here is that there is NOTHING redeeming about the Nohr story, nothing. It's complete trash and it shows a great deal since it was created after Hoshido was already said and done. Make no mistake, if Fates didn't have multiple paths than Hoshido, first and most complete path, would have been the only one.

Nohr's story feels like they just threw stuff together when nearing completion of Hoshido hence its horrid structure, its poor story, the inconsistencies and the such because someone figured there was more money in splitting the game up. Hence why when you're at the "choice" part it's heavily in favor towards Hoshido and there is literally nothing, other than maybe liking the Nohr siblings, that Nohr has to offer in comparison. Especially after Garon already tried to have you randomly killed already. Multiple times at that.

I would have rather had just Hoshido be the story path as the game heavily hints that there was more to Crimson's story and that Camilla and Leo were meant to join your side officially.

I must be a total jerk... I am not sure if my reasoning will change but I was going Nohr for the looks of it and well... Luna. It does make me a little sad that Corrin is acting the way they do but on the same token I did not expect much from the team when it comes to the protagonist.

I have a bit of hope that maybe in localization that at least wording and some explanations will be fleshed out or have a bit of liberty taken to an overall better effect.

[Dark Sage]

At multiple points throughout the game Corrin does act in ways that their intention is shown; sparing their forces in the battles before the invasion, saving them in chapter 18, then again letting them live after the battle and promising to save Hoshido. If we take Fire Emblem as it usually is, this would be considered more than enough to convince recruitable characters to side with you. If Corrin had nothing to do with Hoshido before the events of the game was the main character they still wouldn't join given their position in the war but they would probably think highly of him by the end especially if they ultimately did save Hoshido. The worst Corrin does is win battles against the Hoshido army who either die or survive and then are ordered to be killed, the deaths of the enemy side not being anything out of the ordinary for a Fire Emblem game.

Firstly, Corrin sparing every single enemy in some of the earlier battles early on is impossible. It is laughable that the game even assumes that is possible. Secondly, even after rescuing the Hoshidan royals from Zoura, Hinoka and Ryoma still don't forgive the Nohrians like Camilla or Xander, but apparently they're willing to forgive Corrin, which is retarded. And by the way, Corrin saying he's going to save Hoshido is not going to earn people's trust in any realistic fashion; how can you trust that out of a guy whose been instrumental in the enemy nation taking over your country and who stood by when they committed atrocities (such as in Chapter 13)? You couldn't and you shouldn't because nearly everything they've done has proven contrary to that. This isn't like with Camus. Camus actively gave the Archanean League what they needed to stand a chance and defeat Dolhr (Princess Nina and by extension the Fire Emblem) and couldn't do much more to help because Medeus kept a close eye on him and heavily restricted his movements. He also had to fight for Dolhr because if he didn't, Grust would kill Yubello and Yumina, the royal princes, and Grust would be fucked. Corrin does let the royals go...but he still fully intends for Nohr to win. He also has nothing to hold him back the way Camus does. As far as the Hoshidans know, Corrin really has no reason to support Garon and nothing restricting him other than fear of execution (which btw didn't stop Camus from defying Medeus by sending Nina to Aurelis). Hinoka and Ryoma also not once seem to remember Takumi post-Chapter 23; as far as they know, Corrin and the Nohrians killed him but they don't seem to care about that at all.

So basically, they're choosing to forgive and trust a guy whose been the major reason why Nohr has been successful in invading Hoshido, has taken one of their siblings as a prisoner and presumably (from their perspective) killed Takumi, stood by when dudes like Garon and Ganz started slaughtering their forces even after they surrendered, and does so mainly because he likes his adoptive siblings a lot. But it's ok because he let them go once and said that he wants to save Hoshido! Never mind the fact that everything he's been doing completely contradicts that.

@bolded: which involves, you know, aiding a hostile nation run by murderous psychopaths to take over a peaceful nation. One would think that alone would make what Corrin does noticeably differently morally than what other FE protagonists do. But apparently I'm just out for revenge against the writers of this game (lol) so what do I know?

In Takumi's case whenever he died and is in what appears to be some kind of purgatory the characters can view what's happening outside. After being spared and Corrin trying to convince him twice, being saved from the trap in chapter 18, being spared in 23, then watching(from purgatory) Corrin spare Hinoka promising to save Hoshido, attempting to spare Ryouma, defeating Macbeth, Ganz, revealing Garon as a monster and then killing him to save Hoshido and Nohr. Corrin does apologize at the end of the game to both Takumi and Hinoka. They forgive Corrin which given Corrin's actions isn't considering as mentioned there's multiple cases both before and during the invasion where Corrin showed compassion towards them and Hoshido and ultimately proven that they were sincere in their motivations.

It's not clear whether Takumi is already dead by Chapter 18 or so, so this is left to speculation. If he's not dead at that point, then no, he doesn't know half of these things happened. Yeah, he kills Ganz and Iago, a little late for that and he apparently waits until Nohr's conquered Hoshido to even act against them. Takumi is also a pretty emotional guy and none of this changes the fact that Corrin is still complicit in the crimes Nohr committed against Hoshido. Expecting Takumi to forgive Corrin is like expecting a Holocaust survivor to forgive a soldier of the Third Reich because he felt bad about aiding the Nazis. Even if he is sincere and even if the survivor knows that, most of them still wouldn't forgive him because he was complicit in horrific acts of violence against them. And indeed, most Holocaust survivors didn't forgive Nazi survivors who expressed guilt/remorse for their participation.

We do know what happens to those PoWs because Sakura is with them and she survives. Just before attacking the Royal Palace Macbeth tries to psyche out Corrin by suggesting they kill them but doesn't(otherwise Sakura would be dead) then when walking through the capital he kills an old woman for slander and Ganz kills a couple civillians before heading to take on the Palace from behind. The PoWs would not have been killed unless they already had been because after this point the chain of battles (25-->26-->27&28) follow consecutively inside the Palace until Garon, Macbeth and Ganz death.

So why doesn't he kill Sakura? You even said below that their plan involves killing off royal officials and Sakura is the princess. They have no reason at all to keep her alive but they do so anyway. Plus all the times Corrin decides to spare enemy soldiers, Iago and Ganz show up and then mercilessly butcher them. So yeah, I'd expect the PoWs to be already dead because that is consistent with the characters that Iago, Ganz and Garon are.

The motivation for the war is two separate plot points or three if you include Azura and Corrin's use of it to reveal Garon's true form. During chapter 24 Macbeth even states their plan is to kill all of the officials so they can subjugate Hoshido. Which wouldn't be much different from Nohr's surrounding countries, Nohr increasing its influence(Glory-Seeking) was the motivation for the war in the first place and what Macbeth believes is going to happen. Obviously this is no longer the true case(as Slime Garon is going to destroy both Nohr and Hoshido) but Garon's motivation changing part way through the war doesn't render the original reason for starting the war non-existent and doesn't change what the other characters believe.

Nobody but Garon, Azura and Corrin are aware of Garon's intentions during the Conquest route until the end. When Macbeth, Ganz or Xander are taking Garon's orders they believing they're following the guy who wants to conquer Hoshido, not a slime creature who wants to destroy Nohr and Hoshido. Hence why the civillians that are killed in chapter 24 are likely to be the only significant wanton deaths of non-soldiers for intimidation since Macbeth thinks they're going to be ruling Hoshido, not obliterating it.

We're told in the Hoshido route and by the developers that Nohr is lacking in natural resources and their people are living in poverty. What is the point in having that as a plot point and then not once bring it up in the Nohr route? According to you, it's not even their motivation, increasing their influence is. It also hurts characters like Xander; I could see him going along with Garon if trying to get enough food for the Nohrian people was the goal because it really would be what was best for Nohr. It would also slightly explain why Xander thinks Garon would go back to normal if they just went along with him.

The motivation of being "Glory-Seeking" is basically just another way of saying Nohr invades Hoshido because they're dicks. Which is such a lazy motivation and completely at odds with this "morally grey" and "complex" conflict that the writers supposedly wanted to make (don't even try to say otherwise, they say that in the Iwata Asks interview that there are no good guys or bad guys, which is a damnable lie).

I don't think it's an accident either that Nohr and Hoshido strongly mirror Thracia and Leonster, down to the generations of conflict and the gap between Nohr's and Hoshido's situations, much like how I don't think it was an accident the Grimleal mirrored the Loptyr Sect. The Thracia-Leonster conflict worked because even though Trabant was a dick, he didn't just start a war for the purpose of being a dick. Leonster wasn't totally pure and the people from there have appropriate reactions. Leaf learns about Trabant's situation and he does want to unite Thracia and Leonster, but he doesn't forgive Trabant and Areone for what they did just because they meant well. It's like the people behind Fates wanted to channel that same conflict but didn't understand anything about what worked.

On a side note the throne itself isn't particularly convenient. It comes from the Invisible Kingdom, Mikoto comes from the Invisible Kingdom, the Prophecy/Azura's Song relating to the conquest path refers to a character deceiving and the Hoshido throne being empty. Considering she is from the Invisible Kingdom Mikoto must be aware of the prophecies. the thrones powers are mentioned very early on before the route split as foreshadowing even though it only has purpose for one route.

Kamui and Aqua learn that Garon is really a slime monster but they can't show the crystal ball to the others as evidence because whoops, it broke. How convenient that there just happens to be a throne in Nohr that just happens to reveal Garon's true form so that the siblings can be convinced into stabbing him to death.

People say it's convenient because it's a convenient plot device, but I'm sure you already knew that and are just intentionally being dense at this point.

I'm just pointing out where the game does tell or show something. I've seen with several games that people go overboard with this believing that thinking the game's story isn't good is carte blanche to snipe at anything to do with the plot glossing over or generalising points, even if the game actually does provide some reasoning. Exaggerating like you're a youtuber trying to convince someone a game is the worst thing ever and colouring the perception for people of something they haven't seen for themselves.

A while back I said I don't really care much for the stories in videogames and care more about the gameplay so I only really posted about the main events of each route but the way it continuously came up I took a more detailed look at the story myself I was expecting something along the lines of Eternal Sonata where the characters all operated on moon logic and still managed to write itself into a corner, what did I find? A pretty decent story, it comes together quite well and takes the gameplay into account giving a reason to use both Nohr and Hoshido as areas for battles and presenting confrontations with battles involving and against the the main characters.

I get some don't like the where the story heads but from what is said it half sounds like Corrin is flat out nuking Hoshido or rendering it inhabital, like you're attempting to get revenge on the writer for not villifying Corrin by overexaggerating the damage he or she causes. By the time the game releases in the west people who haven't played it yet but heard about the story will assume Chapter 24 will be the one where Corrin promises to Hinoka "I will save Hoshido" before promptly chopping her head off and her last words being "Thank you Corrin" as her head rolls along the ground.

But Corrin is causing death and destruction to Hoshido. Sure, it's not uninhabitable or anything but it's in a much worse state than before and Corrin's actions are responsible for the needless and numerous deaths of decent people. That's pretty fucking villainous and it can't be swept under the rug the way the game (and you) try to.

Characters are inconsistent and poorly written. Corrin is willing to stick up for Kaze and Rinka in Chapter 1 and risk Garon's wrath but after the route split is suddenly too much of a putz to piss Garon off. Garon, Iago, and Hydra want to make Corrin sad for basically no reason whatsoever except for being dicks. Iago and Ganz have no backstory and almost no personality besides being cartoonishly evil. The Hoshidans don't react like realistic people would. Lazy plot devices are introduced and used both in a laughable attempt to morally exonerate Corrin and Azura, to (poorly) provide a reason why the siblings don't just help Corrin stab Garon to death immediately and because apparently they couldn't be bothered to give Garon any sort of depth or complex characterization. Xander's personality in the story conflicts with his personality in his supports; he's supposed to put what's best for Nohr above all else but not once brings that up in the story, instead being a daddy's boy even when it's apparent that his father is bad news (which tbf is also a flaw in the Hoshido route as well) and Kaze's character gets completely butchered. And you wonder why people consider the game to be poorly written.

Also fuck you too man. People wouldn't care so much about the quality of the story if IS didn't trumpet so much about hiring Kibabyashi and how supposedly awesome and complex and morally grey it was. It's not unreasonable to expect a plot better than this. Just because you're butthurt that people don't like the plot doesn't mean people aren't just making shit up or acting out of malice.

[Sunwoo]

Ryouma and Hinoka really don't seem to give a shit about either Takumi or Sakura.

Using the site https://fateswartable.wordpress.com as my source:

In Hinoka's chapter

- Hinoka is still reminiscing about and mourning the fact that Kamui no longer considers themselves a Hoshido royal

- She's not even mad that Kamui says he has to kill her because Garon has ordered it

- "Sakura … she's alive?!" You thought that Sakura (and Takumi by extension) were dead and didn't even get a little angry on their behalf!? The fuck, Hinoka?!

In Ryouma's chapter

- Macbeth gloats to Ryouma about how Sakura is a prisoner and Takumi may or may not be dead. The only one he really reacts to is when he says Hinoka is dead

- Ryouma, when defeated, only asks Kamui to send him "where Hinoka is". No thoughts about Sakura, doesn't give a shit about Takumi.

- Kills himself to protect Kamui from being called a traitor by Garon and Macbeth. Now, I get Ryouma really had no choice here since he was going to die either way, but was it necessary for him to kill himself to protect KAMUI, as opposed to, say, his honor?

- Does not ever mention Sakura or Takumi on his own. Ever.

Sakura and Takumi deserve better siblings than these two jokers. :|

Edited November 30, 2015 by Sunwoo

[JupiterKnight]

I don't recall any destruction actually happening to anything in Hoshido beyond the early chapters and that's done intentionally to try to kill Mikoto and Kamui. Plus Hoshido is literally paradise that they can easily fix it. It's honestly not a problem despite how much they try to make it sound like it is. Unlike Nohrdor.

[Dark Sage]

I don't recall any destruction actually happening to anything in Hoshido beyond the early chapters and that's done intentionally to try to kill Mikoto and Kamui. Plus Hoshido is literally paradise that they can easily fix it. It's honestly not a problem despite how much they try to make it sound like it is. Unlike Nohrdor.

It's not explicitly stated no, but it's easy to infer that Garon, Ganz, and Iago did indeed cause plenty of destruction. Some destruction is always going to happen in wars to begin with, but the three constantly kill soldiers who already surrendered and have no problems butchering civilians. They also get off on being dicks; when Xander suggests just surrounding the Hoshidans and wait until they surrender without a fight (which isn't totally unreasonable due to the Hoshidans face), Iago tells them to attack them anyway. His plan is to publicly execute all of Hoshido's officials once they surrender anyway, so there's no need for a fight and it would probably be smarter to take Xander's advice so they don't lose Nohr soldiers. There's basically no reason for Iago to veto Xander's plan except that he likes being an asshole.

Given this behavior, it's entirely unbelievable that they wouldn't just go on a rampage and terrorize any towns they come across (and you need to pass through and seize towns in a military campaign so you can't say that it's because they never passed any towns). I mean, Hoshido can fix it, I don't think anyone's implied otherwise, but it was still entirely avoidable and these people are still dead.

[NekoKnight]

I don't recall any destruction actually happening to anything in Hoshido beyond the early chapters and that's done intentionally to try to kill Mikoto and Kamui. Plus Hoshido is literally paradise that they can easily fix it. It's honestly not a problem despite how much they try to make it sound like it is. Unlike Nohrdor.

So death and destruction isn't deplorable because stuff can get rebuilt....?

"Wow, don't have a cow man. So we killed a lot of people? Make more then!"

[JupiterKnight]

I meant the destruction of villages and the like. I wasn't talking about the killing.

[arvilino]

So basically, they're choosing to forgive and trust a guy whose been the major reason why Nohr has been successful in invading Hoshido, has taken one of their siblings as a prisoner and presumably (from their perspective) killed Takumi, stood by when dudes like Garon and Ganz started slaughtering their forces even after they surrendered, and does so mainly because he likes his adoptive siblings a lot. But it's ok because he let them go once and said that he wants to save Hoshido! Never mind the fact that everything he's been doing completely contradicts that.

Except they aren't let go once. Takumi is let go three times, Hinoka twice, Ryoma once(kind of) and Sakura is spared and all of them are rescued during chapter 18. Furthermore Takumi forgives Corrin during Chapter 27 and Hinoka forgives Corrin after chapter 28. After Corrin has already proven they're out to save Hoshido and after defeating Garon, Ganz and Macbeth.

Characters are inconsistent and poorly written. Corrin is willing to stick up for Kaze and Rinka in Chapter 1 and risk Garon's wrath but after the route split is suddenly too much of a putz to piss Garon off. Garon, Iago, and Hydra want to make Corrin sad for basically no reason whatsoever except for being dicks. Iago and Ganz have no backstory and almost no personality besides being cartoonishly evil. The Hoshidans don't react like realistic people would. Lazy plot devices are introduced and used both in a laughable attempt to morally exonerate Corrin and Azura, to (poorly) provide a reason why the siblings don't just help Corrin stab Garon to death immediately and because apparently they couldn't be bothered to give Garon any sort of depth or complex characterization. Xander's personality in the story conflicts with his personality in his supports; he's supposed to put what's best for Nohr above all else but not once brings that up in the story, instead being a daddy's boy even when it's apparent that his father is bad news (which tbf is also a flaw in the Hoshido route as well) and Kaze's character gets completely butchered. And you

wonder why people consider the game to be poorly written.

That happens in Chapter 2 and by that point Corrin has only just been let out of his/her lifetime of confinement. It is the first time that Garon has given Corrin an order to kill somebody and Corrin doesn't know the consequences at that point. That isn't inconsitency, its learning not unlike a child choosing not to touch a burning stove a 2nd time after being burnt by one. They're not braver beforehand, they're just ignorant of the consequences.

But yet again this is supposedly poor writing and inconsistent...even when it isn't. Is it any surprise I compared the criticism to a youtuber's hyperbole trying to make something out as the "worst [insert] ever"?

Also fuck you too man. People wouldn't care so much about the quality of the story if IS didn't trumpet so much about hiring Kibabyashi and how supposedly awesome and complex and morally grey it was. It's not unreasonable to expect a plot better than this. Just because you're butthurt that people don't like the plot doesn't mean people aren't just making shit up or acting out of malice.

It seems more like those getting upset the plot not heading in a certain direction is the breaking point for some rather than actual quality. Especially in Conquest where Corrin fights against the Hoshido, they don't get their way so the whole thing is just people saying every plot point is poorly written regardless. I couldn't give a toss if someone just dislikes the plot. But trying to mislead other people by state to care about quality but being prepared to pretend parts of the game never happened for example saying that the Hoshido siblings were only spared once, or using a point where Corrin is ignorant to suggest inconsistent characterisation is something else. No one who actually cared about the quality would do that.

Edited December 1, 2015 by arvilino

[Sunwoo]

I don't recall any destruction actually happening to anything in Hoshido beyond the early chapters and that's done intentionally to try to kill Mikoto and Kamui. Plus Hoshido is literally paradise that they can easily fix it. It's honestly not a problem despite how much they try to make it sound like it is. Unlike Nohrdor.

This is a really awful thing to say -- to anyone in any situation? You're literally brushing off anything Hoshido suffered because it is "paradise". Tell me, would you ever say something like this to anyone in the real world just because they happen to live in a place that is more fortunate than others? No? Then DON'T say it, ever. To us these characters and scenarios are fictional. But to the characters themselves this is their reality. And this attitude you are still having regarding this is reeking very much of unfortunate implications, you're basically "blaming the victim" and excusing the aggressor because the victim is "too perfect". I am curious as to what the actual hell was going through your mind when you said this.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Um I think JupiterKnight was just talking about the buildings not the lives which obviously can't be brought back. I will say though about the Hoshido civilians who got killed they actually did brought it upon themselves for disrespecting Kamui who is a Nohrian prince and thus by extension they are mocking/opposing Garon (royal family in general) hence why Macbeth and Ganz killed them and so had they just kept quiet and moved aside they wouldn't have died. That's the only mention of any Hoshido civilians in Conquest (aside from before the choice) getting killed and it was a young man and a old lady who were made an example of for any other civilians who tried to defy the Nohr army.

Edited December 1, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Sunwoo]

Um I think JupiterKnight was just talking about the buildings not the lives which obviously can't be brought back. I will say though about the Hoshido civilians who got killed they actually did brought it upon themselves for disrespecting Kamui who is a Nohrian prince and thus by extension they are mocking/opposing Garon (royal family in general) hence why Macbeth and Ganz killed them and so had they just kept quiet and moved aside they wouldn't have died. That's the only mention of any Hoshido civilians in Conquest (aside from before the choice) getting killed and it was a young man and a old lady who were made an example of for any other civilians who tried to defy the Nohr army.

"Those protestors brought it upon themselves for disrupting the peace and disrespecting the government. If they had just kept their mouths shut and moved aside, they wouldn't have died."

"Those teenagers brought it upon themselves. They were mocking the police officers and being rowdy. If they had just kept their mouths shut and moved aside, they wouldn't have died."

You. Are. Blaming. The. Victim. You're making excuses for the obviously psychopathic evil peoples because apparently their feelings are so fragile more so than tissue paper that the angry people who were just conquered have NO RIGHT to protest and to be angry. No, why don't we all just shut up and be the good little fucking sheep and bow our heads to the strong people?

Is this what you are really saying? Because this what you're saying. You disgust me.

[ivanhellsing]

It's scary to see a poster defend such shoddy narrative working.

you aint better and you know it n_n