Should I feel ashamed for playing on Normal/Classic?

[Czar_Yoshi]

For Awakening, Low manning is pretty much encouraged. If you play normally, it's likely that the too quickly promoted enemies combined with their massive caps, you'll likely fall behind. The game's Hard Mode is also the middle difficulty. I expect this from Lunatic. I expect to be able to use 15 or so units, which is around where the unit limit is for every chapter.

Yo, I'm doing a Hard/Cla run for support grinding at the minute. My top three or four units are benched right now to make room for more lower-leveled support pairs, I've probably got around 20 combat-ready units. I'm using strange pairs without gameplay in mind, I have no staffbots and use Vulneraries or nothing at all for healing, I've got leads running around with Iron weapons because of how thinly spread Wexp is spread, and yet enemies are still dropping like flies. Every once in a while there's a situation that requires a bit of thinking to get out of, but they're mostly related to protecting NPCs and side goals. If I actually brought in the big guns and a few staffbots, I'd be completely invincible.

So I'm having a little trouble seeing a whole team falling behind in Hard. I mean, if you want everyone to be a frontline tank capable of surviving five or six enemies with all different types of weapons each turn, that's not going to happen, but the whole point of highmanning is so you don't need to do that.

If you find Hard hard, that's perfectly fine. But while lowmanning definitely makes it easier, it really doesn't have issues with highmanning as long as you know how to protect your units so they don't get randomly mobbed.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Tryhard]

Just in case the OP doesn't know, he's a nice guy. He's just being sarcastic if that wasn't obvious enough.

Lies, everyone knows I'm always serious, Rey.

(to the people saying Awakening is "imbalanced": the second difficulty is called "Hard" for a reason, there's nothing imbalanced about a "Hard" difficulty that's, well, hard)

Here's a shocker: Awakening is imbalanced. But so is every other Fire Emblem game. Edited December 25, 2015 by Tryhard

[Augestein]

Since he doesn't move, you can completely mitigate it by fighting him at range with Robin with Fred supporting and Chrom and Lissa adjacent, for a Lv.3 adjacency bonus (+10 Dge). It's probably there just to mess with players who don't know how the adjacency bonus works (or don't properly use it).

I for one kinda like it- it's an example of difficulty that can be mitigated through using the right strategy, but without is only a minor (or major, but rare) annoyance and not an impassable blockade. Only this specific example though, there are plenty of times where you really do have no choice but to face 70 listed and hope it hits, and those really are dumb.

My issue with it is more so that Robin is the best solution here (yes, I know it requires Lissa and Chrom next to him in a line formation). Robin doesn't really need EXP, and the first time it happened to me, I got hit by it trying to get Chrom more than 1 level because I was worried about the snowballing offense and because Chrom is forced every chapter. I really don't like how in Lunatic, it feels right to use a "when in doubt, use Robin" to work Lunatic over. Sort of how in Fire Emblem 4, when in doubt, use Sigurd. And honestly, using Sigurd is the best strategy you could use for several parts. For an added bonus, get him the Javelin so he can have 1-2 range too. After some time, the javelin and the silver sword get kill bonus criticals compounding on the excessive use-- the same way Robin gets with Veteran. Even the enemies struggle against Robin after while.

The funny thing here, I actually understand why you like it. Because in this isolated example, it's a clear example of how a strategy game with RNG should be designed: where the player can negate things through proper placements of unit and strongly remove elements of lethal RNG-- and for that, I agree. The issue is that this isn't happening on say, the final boss, but instead, the first boss, where you may want to spread your EXP around-- more specifically, to Chrom, whom is not only forced, but nets you and instant game over if he dies. I like the notion of the game having punishing difficulty on the highest level. I don't like that there's levels involved here. If Lunatic had characters as forced minimum levels and the like for each chapter? I would so be all over this difficulty. But yes, I do agree that some of the early game's 70% or you die moments are pretty lame.

And I agree with you on the enemy strength. Their defenses are pretty miserable. I think that's done so the enemies can use the classic dive bomb tactics where they die and continue to attack you because you cleared up the spaces. I never really had a problem killing them until like Chapter 17ish with any random mook unit I chose.

[Florete]

Here's a shocker: Awakening is imbalanced. But so is every other Fire Emblem game.

If a Fire Emblem game were to be balanced, it would be very boring.

[Vascela]

My issue with it is more so that Robin is the best solution here (yes, I know it requires Lissa and Chrom next to him in a line formation). Robin doesn't really need EXP, and the first time it happened to me, I got hit by it trying to get Chrom more than 1 level because I was worried about the snowballing offense and because Chrom is forced every chapter. I really don't like how in Lunatic, it feels right to use a "when in doubt, use Robin" to work Lunatic over. Sort of how in Fire Emblem 4, when in doubt, use Sigurd. And honestly, using Sigurd is the best strategy you could use for several parts. For an added bonus, get him the Javelin so he can have 1-2 range too. After some time, the javelin and the silver sword get kill bonus criticals compounding on the excessive use-- the same way Robin gets with Veteran. Even the enemies struggle against Robin after while.

The funny thing here, I actually understand why you like it. Because in this isolated example, it's a clear example of how a strategy game with RNG should be designed: where the player can negate things through proper placements of unit and strongly remove elements of lethal RNG-- and for that, I agree. The issue is that this isn't happening on say, the final boss, but instead, the first boss, where you may want to spread your EXP around-- more specifically, to Chrom, whom is not only forced, but nets you and instant game over if he dies. I like the notion of the game having punishing difficulty on the highest level. I don't like that there's levels involved here. If Lunatic had characters as forced minimum levels and the like for each chapter? I would so be all over this difficulty. But yes, I do agree that some of the early game's 70% or you die moments are pretty lame.

And I agree with you on the enemy strength. Their defenses are pretty miserable. I think that's done so the enemies can use the classic dive bomb tactics where they die and continue to attack you because you cleared up the spaces. I never really had a problem killing them until like Chapter 17ish with any random mook unit I chose.

Well, technically speaking Robin isn't the solution. You can break his weapon with someone else in the lead (like Frederick). That in itself is a terrible idea for annihilating your heal staff (and real time) just so you can feed Chrom something with no risk.

[Baldrick]

If a Fire Emblem game were to be balanced, it would be very boring.

I disagree. Perfect balance would be boring, but if you manage bases, growths, skills etc. thoughtfully, to make sure every unit has both some strengths and some weaknesses, and use anti-lowmanning strategies, the difference between the best units and the worst units could be made smaller and more subjective.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Baldrick

[Czar_Yoshi]

The issue is that this isn't happening on say, the final boss, but instead, the first boss, where you may want to spread your EXP around-- more specifically, to Chrom, whom is not only forced, but nets you and instant game over if he dies.

Wanting to spread exp around early on, though... Why? It's not a sound tactical choice, since lowmanning is the way to go on Awakening, and if you want to highman, you'd need to wait long enough to have some good units before you can spread exp to them. Furthermore, earlygame is the hardest part of the game due to limited player options and lots of weak recruits- why start training a full team there when you could wait until you're past the hump, have a wider, better selection of units to train, and have an easier time doing so?

Let's say you've got a nice long-term gameplan that uses some powerful midgame recruits- say, Nowi, Panne, the Pegs- and puts Chrom where he belongs at the back of a support. Robin can be used but isn't needed, there are quite a few other units in the game capable of holding their own once they get going. Earlygame exp really doesn't fit into that, beyond getting a decently strong unit who can protect the rest of your team as they get past their humps. Is Nowi going to care whether Robin or Chrom got that first boss kill? Not really.

Exp spreading has its quirks in Awakening, and it's not straightforward, but it really is a lot more effective to start small and grow from there rather than trying to lift a bunch of units up at once with no support. The final boss, or areas close to it, actually are where you'd want to spread your exp around, assuming your goal is to have a large team that's actually a team and doesn't just collapse in on itself.

Also, that 30 exp from the boss is a lot less likely to keep Chrom alive by going under his belt than it is to keep him alive by going under the belt of someone strong enough to protect him. He's got a Wyvern-slaying sword, he's decently hard to double, he can easily hide, catch up and hide again. It's what he's best at. Let Robin carry you through the earlygame (it's him or Fred, and one is a really bad idea), and then if you want to go without him, shelve him and bring him back later if you really need a panic button. He can catch up, it's what he's good at.

[Augestein]

Well, technically speaking Robin isn't the solution. You can break his weapon with someone else in the lead (like Frederick). That in itself is a terrible idea for annihilating your heal staff (and real time) just so you can feed Chrom something with no risk.

I suppose that's true, I don't think I'd want to do that though.

Wanting to spread exp around early on, though... Why? It's not a sound tactical choice, since lowmanning is the way to go on Awakening, and if you want to highman, you'd need to wait long enough to have some good units before you can spread exp to them. Furthermore, earlygame is the hardest part of the game due to limited player options and lots of weak recruits- why start training a full team there when you could wait until you're past the hump, have a wider, better selection of units to train, and have an easier time doing so?

And that's exactly why I don't particularly like Lunatic in Awakening. You really aren't saying anything I don't already know. You're just saying why I don't like Awakening Lunatic with more words. My team when I won the first time wasn't very large, but the fact that the game is designed the way it is in Lunatic is what makes me say "I don't like it."

There's no need to say all of this: I know how it works; I don't like it.

[BlueLeafeon]

Let me be honest.

I don't understand these people that can play on higher difficulties. I can play hard mode, sure, but how anybody can get past the first four chapters in lunatic is beyond me. I know I can't do it.

Normal/Classic is just the right amount of challenge, as the OP said. I mean, sure, once you start reclassing people and getting the good skills, the game becomes easy mode, but there's still a few maps that are challenging as heck. (DLC mostly, although the...well spring of truth stage is also hard, IMO.)

[Florete]

I disagree. Perfect balance would be boring, but if you manage bases, growths, skills etc. thoughtfully, to make sure every unit has both some strengths and some weaknesses, and use anti-lowmanning strategies, the difference between the best units and the worst units could be made smaller and more subjective.

So you actually do agree with me.

If there are differences, it will be imbalanced. Some of the most common imbalances of the series are what help make it successful and appealing to more people.

[Skynstein]

If a Fire Emblem game were to be balanced, it would be very boring.

It depends on what kind of balance we speak of. But generally harder difficulties are supposed to be imbalanced and require cheese to beat, since finding what works best is part of learning how to beat the game. That's why I don't bother with the really hard modes anymore unless it's like in the old N64 Rare shooters where you'd only know the "complete" mission if you played on the hardest level. Still, in those games there was a reward... All that suffering on the hardest difficulty unlocked a mode where you controlled the AI's difficulty while playing the hardest mission modes. Sweet stuff! :D

[Czar_Yoshi]

And that's exactly why I don't particularly like Lunatic in Awakening. You really aren't saying anything I don't already know. You're just saying why I don't like Awakening Lunatic with more words. My team when I won the first time wasn't very large, but the fact that the game is designed the way it is in Lunatic is what makes me say "I don't like it."

But then why try to spread exp around? Just for fun?

Lunatic(+) require you to play by the game's rules, or do poorly. Normal/Hard let you do whatever you want, for fun, and get away with it. If you want to play by your own rules, regardless of tactics, do it there, it's what they're for. If Lunatic(+) let you do whatever you want and get away with it, they'd be pretty pathetic difficulties.

It's a shame that the highest difficulties aren't designed to be appealing to everyone, maybe, but I'd much rather have that than them not fulfill their roles of being difficult.

Again, nothing against anyone who doesn't like them, they're not for everyone. And I don't think they should be. I'd be mad if they let you get away with whatever, a lot of people would be mad if Normal/Hard didn't.

[TheSilentChloey]

Let me be honest.

I don't understand these people that can play on higher difficulties. I can play hard mode, sure, but how anybody can get past the first four chapters in lunatic is beyond me. I know I can't do it.

Normal/Classic is just the right amount of challenge, as the OP said. I mean, sure, once you start reclassing people and getting the good skills, the game becomes easy mode, but there's still a few maps that are challenging as heck. (DLC mostly, although the...well spring of truth stage is also hard, IMO.)

I concur with this statement. I find Normal hard enough as is...and I don't even want to see what Fates has in store for me if I can barely crawl through beating Normal in Awakening...

[Ebony]

Let me be honest.

I don't understand these people that can play on higher difficulties. I can play hard mode, sure, but how anybody can get past the first four chapters in lunatic is beyond me. I know I can't do it.

Normal/Classic is just the right amount of challenge, as the OP said. I mean, sure, once you start reclassing people and getting the good skills, the game becomes easy mode, but there's still a few maps that are challenging as heck. (DLC mostly, although the...well spring of truth stage is also hard, IMO.)

Eh? I didn't have much trouble with wellspring of truth.

Overall, Awakening's normal even with classic is easy imo.

I play on it most of the time though because I've beaten Lunatic, I attempted Lunatic+ and got frustrated with the cheating difficulty, Hard is good, but Normal is what I play through most of the time to play it for fun.

Lunatic is okay to get through at first if you lowman it and abuse pair up and careful positioning. It's mostly trial and error at first until you get a good groove. Then it becomes more manageable easily.

[Augestein]

But then why try to spread exp around? Just for fun?

Yes. Because contrary to what some people seem to act like at moments, having fun with the game comes first and foremost. I don't feel good just from seeing the victory screen. I want to have fun while doing that. And I don't find Awakening's spread to be fun with that. If I want to use Chrom, the game shouldn't make it annoying to use him. That's not the sign of fun difficulty IMO. Just the sign of poor balance. I mean imagine if you were playing a RTS, and you play Hardest mode, and it's like: yeah, don't build all of those other units, just spam Unit A and you'll win. Does that sound like fun? I already mentioned that I don't like it, and what you're doing is akin to if I said I did not like the color green and your response is: "well let me explain the color green to you." I know what it is, I don't like it.

Lunatic(+) require you to play by the game's rules, or do poorly. Normal/Hard let you do whatever you want, for fun, and get away with it. If you want to play by your own rules, regardless of tactics, do it there, it's what they're for. If Lunatic(+) let you do whatever you want and get away with it, they'd be pretty pathetic difficulties.

But that's the thing, there hits a point where you can play by its rules and it's still not fun. Bravely Default for instance? Its hard mode basically wants you to use strategies that end up working on... Every enemy that can be conceived by the game. Once you get to that point and figure that out, it no longer becomes fun to some. It's not a matter of "getting away with anything," it's a matter of having some liberties to be able to do things in different ways without the game itself becoming tedious or less fun. I find Lunatic pretty pathetic anyways because it's not actually hard in the sense of it requiring me to sit and think. It just requires me to abuse the most abusive and busted mechanics Awakening offers... Which is totally not the same thing as say... Being good at an action game where it's you recognizing enemy patterns and avoiding their attacks and the like through learning how the enemies fight. It's the equivalent to picking up an overpowered weapon and then steamrolling through the game.

It's a shame that the highest difficulties aren't designed to be appealing to everyone, maybe, but I'd much rather have that than them not fulfill their roles of being difficult.

The hardest difficulties again aren't designed in a way that's challenging and fun to some. There lies the issue. There's a balance. Take a look at something like Mass Effect 1. There's no doubt that Mass Effect 1 in Insanity is harder than the lower difficulties, but Vanugard inheriting Singularity and then you bursting down everything with Throw +Lift + Singularity and slapping Immunity on yourself to reduce pretty much all incoming damage and then Adrenaline Bursting down anything else that survives isn't fun. Even if it IS the most effective thing you can do to beat the game. Perhaps a person DOES want to play an Engineer instead. Then compare that to Mass Effect 2 or 3 where the game is definitely harder in the hardest mode, but it's not a chore to play. Lunatic hits that point for some people. The first time I beat Lunatic, it was in 90 minutes while I was waiting in line for repairs to be done on my car. It was more fun than watching the walls, but it's not something that I find fun to after you've beaten it once or twice. Thus, I don't find myself liking Lunatic mode because I don't want to play it after I won. I can find other games that provide an adequate enough challenge and don't feel so bland.

Again, nothing against anyone who doesn't like them, they're not for everyone. And I don't think they should be. I'd be mad if they let you get away with whatever, a lot of people would be mad if Normal/Hard didn't.

And I personally don't find throwing Robin around to be fun. The issue is that what I did to beat the harder difficulties is what I did when I tried to see how fast I could get through the game "use Robin." So in the end, I find Lunatic, lame.

[Irysa]

^

Well to be fair, you CAN spread EXP in Lunatic and train a lot of units. Your strategies and approach to the game have to be significantly more refined though. In my case, I had to restart like 3 or 4 times to make sure I didn't end up screwing myself out of an enjoyable playthrough via overuse of particular characters.

The problem isn't that Lunatic is DESIGNED around you breaking the game (that's Lunatic+ lol), it's that the game breaking options exist in the first place and are so prominent and braindead that anyone who isn't really invested in what they're doing is more likely to just fall back on the I-Win button beacuse it's the path of least resistance.

At the OP: Shame is something that's defined by yourself. Communities or societies can attempt to shame people for not acting in accordance to their values or beliefs, but the only way they can make you feel ashamed is if you accept you have something to be ashamed about. If you think it's bad that you struggle on higher difficulties, it makes sense that you feel ashamed for being incompetant, but if you don't care, then there's no sustainable reasoning for being ashamed.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Irysa

[Augestein]

And yeah, I get what you're saying. And it's just I did not find Lunatic fun. I used Gaius x Cordelia, Sumia x Fred, and Chrom x Robin in the end, and I used Morgan with Severa as well. And supported Cynthia x Lucina but opted not to later on because the support was lame in my opinion.

It is more for Lunatic+ (but mentioning them both constantly gets annoying really quickly), but I just don't find them fun. I mean, I felt like HHM was such a good balance of annoying and challenging, and none of the other difficulties at their max levels really hit that golden spot for me. But honestly... I'm not getting why Yoshi is having such a problem with me basically saying "I didn't like it," and trying to explain things to me like... I just don't understand Lunatic and + when I did beat them. It's not like I was saying that Lunatic is impossible to beat or anything... It just feels so needlessly aggressive.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Augestein

[Irysa]

Well there's the implication in your posts that "Lunatic forces me to do preform particular actions or strategies that I don't enjoy using", and the reasonable response is "No it doesn't", beause it really really doesn't force any particular kind of playstyle other than one that has some kind of long term strategy. I mean really even in the bosskill example Chrom can just take the bosskill once Robin weakens them a bit.

If you don't have fun constantly facing a significant threat of having a unit die, then that's kind of a different complaint entirely, and one that's a lot easier to just accept as like, just your opinion man.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Irysa

[Augestein]

Well there's the implication in your posts that "Lunatic forces me to do preform particular actions or strategies that I don't enjoy using", and the reasonable response is "No it doesn't", beause it really really doesn't force any particular kind of playstyle other than one that has some kind of long term strategy. I mean really even in the bosskill example Chrom can just take the bosskill once Robin weakens them a bit.

If you don't have fun constantly facing a significant threat of having a unit die, then that's kind of a different complaint entirely, and one that's a lot easier to just accept as like, just your opinion man.

And an implication isn't sufficient because I never said that. So yes, it is being needlessly aggressive. Even in your response doesn't make sense to what I was saying. Yes, you can weaken the boss with Robin, but again, that doesn't sound very fun and is exactly what I mentioned was my problem with it. And somehow people funnel in their own assumptions -- of how they get to these conclusions I'm not even sure and then respond in ways leaving you scratching your head thinking "what are you talking about?" Primarily.

And that's not what my complaint was at all.

[Irysa]

Look, nobody's being "aggressive" here.

You questioned "why is someone trying to explain things to me?" and I provided an explanation that I think seems sustainable. If that's not what you meant, then it's just a misunderstanding and doesn't matter, but using "I didn't actually say that" as some kind of way to frame someone as having done A Bad Thing is pretty passive aggressive to say the least. There's no ill intent in what he or I was saying.

When you say it's not "fun" to use Robin to weaken the boss, do you simulteanously think it's not "fun" to use a unit who can use an Armorslayer to weaken a General?

[Skynstein]

Lunatic(+) require you to play by the game's rules, or do poorly.

It's something that deserves to be saved for the future. That's exactly how it is, and it applies to all games ever made.

The problem is when the player doesn't like the game's rules, but that's due to taste, really.

I used to play shooters trying my best not to take damage, but if you're into speedrunning, you'll need to tell realism to screw itself and take a couple bullets. Doesn't matter if you'd be dead IRL, you won in the game, the game is not IRL. In Goldeneye you're sometimes encouraged to take hits from behind to speed yourself up. Doesn't matter if "it's not how Bond would do it". It's what wins in the game, and the game has its own rules.

My issue with Lunatic+ is that they added RNG to the enemy units' stats themselves, so there's no way of knowing what you're getting into before a map loads. It's clever, but may make some missions impossible. :P

[Baldrick]

So you actually do agree with me.

If there are differences, it will be imbalanced. Some of the most common imbalances of the series are what help make it successful and appealing to more people.

No, I disagree that balance is binary, I think you can make the game more balanced without achieving perfect balance.

I also disagree that being more imbalanced makes the game more fun. The most common complaints about Awakening's gameplay (Normal is too easy, Lunatic is too hard/luck based, Robin is too OP) are due to imbalance between the player and the enemy.

[Jedi]

My issue with it is more so that Robin is the best solution here (yes, I know it requires Lissa and Chrom next to him in a line formation). Robin doesn't really need EXP, and the first time it happened to me, I got hit by it trying to get Chrom more than 1 level because I was worried about the snowballing offense and because Chrom is forced every chapter. I really don't like how in Lunatic, it feels right to use a "when in doubt, use Robin" to work Lunatic over. Sort of how in Fire Emblem 4, when in doubt, use Sigurd. And honestly, using Sigurd is the best strategy you could use for several parts. For an added bonus, get him the Javelin so he can have 1-2 range too. After some time, the javelin and the silver sword get kill bonus criticals compounding on the excessive use--

Sigurd shouldn't be using a Javelin much at all like Ch 2 is the only time Jav!Sigurd would even stick out and even then its situational. It's not even a good weapon in FE4.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Jedi

[eclipse]

I concur with this statement. I find Normal hard enough as is...and I don't even want to see what Fates has in store for me if I can barely crawl through beating Normal in Awakening...

Practice!

Does it matter if you take 80 turns to complete a chapter? Absolutely not! How 'bout using some units you never dreamed of putting together? My earlygame go-to is Sumia with Kellam in back - they offset each other's weaknesses nicely, even if they never have a support conversation.

The best way to learn is to do stuff, then do it differently. Find your style, and as you continually go through the game, you'll remember what worked and what didn't, and then you can apply it to future runs.

If you want a change of pace, try this: train 14 units max, and you're only allowed one battle outside of a story/paralogue chapter before you have to jump in. This is one way to see what works with your current playstyle, and what doesn't.

The thing that makes Fire Emblem great, IMO, is the amount of flexibility there is. Once upon a time, every single person on these forums picked up a Fire Emblem game for the first time. . .and almost all of us were terrible at it!

[Thor Odinson]

Fun is subjective. I do enjoy shitstomping the hell out of Normal/Hard and feel really OP, but if that's all I ever did I'd be really bored. I like being challenged, and I'm familiar enough with the mechanics that Lunatic/+ wasn't really that overwhelming for me (save a few earlygame L+ chapters, but bless Interceptor strats) and I feel the cries of unfairness was really overblown.

There's no shame in playing however the fuck you want, it's entertainment, do what makes you feel the most entertained, but if you don't understand why L/L+ players like those modes, it's because our idea of fun is simply different and that's just the way it is and there's not really much to understand. Experience levels also differ. Something super difficult to one could be a walk in the park to another. My friends have difficulty with FE7 EliNormal while L+ is "not too bad" for me, while I struggle with Touhou Easy Mode and they can beat Lunatic easily there. It's just a matter of different perspectives, experiences, and taste.

At the end of the day, just do what's the most fun. If you want to improve we're happy to help, if you don't and enjoy playing at whatever level you play at, that's entirely valid too.