So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[semolinaro]

To add to that, people defending Xander by saying he wanted to fight the avatar after Elise's death because he couldn't live with the guilt and wanted to die is weak. If you can't live with yourself after what you just did then you end your life yourself, don't dishonor your sister's last wish who died at YOUR hands just because you're disgusted with yourself. It's a cowardly thing to do. It could have been a turning point for his character where he realized he was fighting for an ill cause that destroyed his family, but he's still stuck in his stubborn ways. Characters that are written to refuse change are the worst kind.

Oh how I really wanted to like you Xander. The formula's there, but it's been botched.

Edit: sorry, didn't mean to quote my own post! Using my phone and I accidentally hit quote instead of edit. Ignore me. Edited March 5, 2016 by semolinaro

[NekoKnight]

Again, despite his father being crazy he has no choice but to fight for his country because it is required of him. It doesn't matter if they're trying to dipose Garon at that point, you're still a hostile army at the capital of his country.

And after Elise dies, I think Xander couldn't live with the guilt and just let you kill him. Because he doesn't do jack against Corrin at that point, when beforehand he was completely wrecking them.

This is even an archtype in FE. The Camus.

I agree that he has a duty as the crown prince to fight for his nation but I felt he chose the tragedy that befell him. Marx could be a hero, even in Birthright. He could realize how hopelessly corrupt his superiors are and get rid of them but he chooses to obey to the very end. He doesn't have a character arc, it's just a supposedly good character obeying his evil king until he dies pointlessly (after killing his sister). Take a look at Jaime Lannister as a character. His final rebellion (despite his oath of loyalty to his king) makes him one of the most interesting characters in Game of Thrones.

Edited March 5, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Abysswalker25]

Uh, I think you screwed up your edit there and double posted instead.

Regarding the posts above: Fair enough. I can see why someone would view it that way and dislike it. Doesn't change my views on Xander, however.

I agree that he has a duty as the crown prince to fight for his nation but I felt he chose the tragedy that befell him. Marx could be a hero, even in Birthright. He could realize how hopelessly corrupt his superiors are and get rid of them but he chooses to obey to the very end. He doesn't have a character arc, it's just a supposedly good character obeying his evil king until he dies pointlessly (after killing someone important to him). Take a look at Jaime Lannister as a character. His final rebellion (despite his oath of loyalty to his king) makes him one of the most interesting characters in Game of Thrones.

This is true, but look how many people consider Jaime dishonorable even though he did a really good thing. Plus, Garon is his father and patricide is a severe crime on top of being considered a traitor if he went and tried to kill Garon.

Sidenote: Ah.. how I wish some things could've been better written/explained within Fates. Though I think the debate is a good thing, since it shows how passionate fans are about Fire Emblem in the first place.

And I keep getting us off topic, my apologies.

[NekoKnight]

Uh, I think you screwed up your edit there and double posted instead.

Regarding the posts above: Fair enough. I can see why someone would view it that way and dislike it. Doesn't change my views on Xander, however.

This is true, but look how many people consider Jaime dishonorable even though he did a really good thing. Plus, Garon is his father and patricide is a severe crime on top of being considered a traitor if he went and tried to kill Garon.

Sidenote: Ah.. how I wish some things could've been better written/explained within Fates. Though I think the debate is a good thing, since it shows how passionate fans are about Fire Emblem in the first place.

And I keep getting us off topic, my apologies.

Perhaps Marx would have been considered dishonorable and a traitor, but wouldn't that make a cool epilogue if Marx became the king of Nohr but another rebellion formed, accusing him of being a usurper? Robert Baratheon time!

I think it's good to have discussions about the plot, if only for different perspectives. I once thought Kamui standing up for Suzukaze and Rinka contradicted his submissiveness in the Conquest route. A story-supporter argued that this was Kamui's first experience of disobeying and being threatened, he learned not to do it again, which made me change my mind on the matter. People aren't going to make major shifts in their opinions, but disagreements lead to critical thinking.

[RedRob]

I agree with the rest of your post but I'm going to question this part. What makes a likable character is going to get a bit subjective and someone's circumstances aren't always going to be enough to redeem them. Take Takumi, for example. He has perfectly legitimate grievances but players who've only played Conquest often dislike him. Why? Part of it is the narrative framing him as wrong but another is his god damn persistence. Even as someone who felt Takumi was one of the most human characters in Fates, playing through Conquest I got tired of Takumi showing up saying "Die die die, fuck you fuck you fuck you" no matter how often I slapped his shit and sent him packing. Some people aren't going to like Shinji either just because he's so insufferably whiny.

So no, I don't think Kamui being abused into submissiveness (an argument could be made for the Nohrian siblings behaving like scared, abused children but I don't like them more for it) would make him more appealing. It would make me want to play a different game. There is a reason we play influential people instead of the common soldier. Because no one wants to follow the life of someone who can't change anything.

It's happening.

I was trying to say that if there was any logical reason behind Corrin following Garon, people would complain less about it than the current story, where there is no reason what so ever. Whether I'm right or wrong about that is for you and any one who reads it to decide.

And the part about Shinji was more or less a potshot against people who hate any character just for not being macho and crap without considering if that's part of the theme of the story. NGE was partly about the characters various mental problems. Not about a kid fighting in a kickass robot. Well, it is, but it's about when that happens to someone in real life. Shinji a kid, not a soldier, so it's normal he be adversed to fighting aliens to the death. Another example is Hope from FFXIII. I didn't mind him so much as he lost his mom, became a being that is demonized by his society, is hunted down by the military, and has to fight wild beasts on a daily basis to survive. I don't blame him for freaking out, I would have probably would have broken down in that situation. Yet, a lot of people complains that he whines too much

So in short, I just hate people who write off any character just because they angst instead of kicking ass. I'm a somewhat understanding guy, so I'm more willing to forgive a character's behavior depending on their situations, given it's written well. There's more to characters than kicking ass.

Just to be clear and prevent a misunderstanding, I'm not lumping you in with these people, but that I'm just complaining against those with a "macho or bust" mindset and have no deeper complaint than "he's not superduper manly".

[Katryn]

I can see what you are saying, RedRob. And I know I'm not asking Corrin to be a macho man / li'l soldier girl. (I've gotten crap from betas about this before; it can be frustrating.)

My issue is that the story never has Corrin start taking action. It seems to string him / her along and has him / her reacting to things even when trying to accomplish anything. When a character becomes to reaction-based, it can put distance between the story and the reader.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Katryn

[eclipse]

''We must bring peace to the world! Let's go invade an innocent nation and get lots of people killed!''

Corrin for president.

of America

I wish it wasn't such an accurate statement.

I am calm. Since when was I not calm around here? I argue that Conquest's writing is NOT bad. Good or bad is subjective. I will therefore argue that it's actually fairly good, and people who just say "because" I will call a whiner. They are not criticizing. They are saying "It's bad because it's bad". When you have an argument, I will argue against that argument.

I would really rather NOT be in this topic, since I'm partway through Nohr. HOWEVER, I need to do something about the report(s) that cropped up, which is/are about you.

Chill out. Next time I have to respond to any similar complaints about you, it's going to be more than an in-thread yelling-at.

SO, to actually answer the topic. . .I just finished Chapter 17, and the story's okay. But IMO it wouldn't have mattered what direction the writing took, because there'd be complaints no matter what.

[RedRob]

I can see what you are saying, RedRob. And I know I'm not asking Corrin to be a macho man / li'l soldier girl. (I've gotten crap from betas about this before; it can be frustrating.)

My issue is that the story never has Corrin start taking action. It seems to string him / her along and has him / her reacting to things even when trying to accomplish anything. When a character becomes to reaction-based, it can put distance between the story and the reader.

I wasn't talking about anyone on this forum specifically. I was talking about people with the mindset where they would mock a character like Eliwood

for crying during his dad's death, or when he kills Ninian.

People who are superficial like that, with no real logical argument. It's a pet peeve of mine for people to ignore the circumstances of a situation where a person acts "wimpy". But you guys don't do that, you took Nohrrin's circumstances into consideration, and formed a conclusion from it.

You guys are awesome and I love how in-depth the debates here get, though I do tire of how some topics are debated over and over to the point it's like beating a dead horse. (number of times it's brought up, not how long it gets)

[Ema Skye]

I know Conquest Corrin gets a lot of flak for being powerless, but that's honestly why I love him as a protagonist.

The relationship between the Nohr siblings and Garon is honestly the coolest relationship I think FE has ever had. They all know he's a bad guy but because he's that much of a bad guy, they're absolutely powerless to directly stop him. They've made it abundantly clear: actively fighting against Garon is the equivalent of death. The siblings know this. They know their dad is a legit bad guy, but they obviously don't want to die trying to fight him. Plus you know, it's your dad and I can't imagine they'd think killing their dad is a good idea.

[spoiler=Nohr Chapter 15]I know after this chapter when we learn that Garon isn't actually Garon and that the siblings won't believe it gets a lot of flak, especially because Azura's solution is "if we take over Hoshido and expose him, then they'll believe us". And yeah, it doesn't quite make a lot of sense at first. But having thought about it for a while, I think it kinda works. It's not great, but if you think about it, if you were one of the Nohr kids and were told "btw your dad isn't actually your dad but a giant slime monster because your dad's been dead for years", would you honestly believe it? I can't say I would, especially because the supports reveal that Garon actually was a decent dad when he was actually alive.

Honestly, my bigger problem is with Birthright's story because everything is sunshine and rainbows and totally perfect. Birthright Corrin has no guilt over his decision, even though he totally should because it's the natural reaction to making that giant decision. Nohr Corrin has a lot of doubt over his decision and it's the human reaction to have. Birthright Corrin doesn't question his decision later and that makes him seem like much less human than Nohr Corrin which ultimately impacts how much I can tolerate him as a character. Nohr's Azura support is honestly perfect at this. I know a lot of people view this support as Nohr Corrin saying "Did I make the wrong choice?" and I get it. And I think that's honestly a super cool support. Birthright needs more of this questioning for me to accept it as a quality game.

Then again, this is coming from a guy who can't tolerate Birthright and adores Conquest so my view is obviously biased to an extent.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Scrub Lord Doof

[Eveangaline]

I just wonder why once your avatar finds out the king is literally a demonic impostor, why not just go to kaze and say "I need you to assassinate the king in secret. This may cost you your life but xander being king will end the war"

Or like any of the other characters that would be good for assassinations. It couldn't be that hard to find someone to at least try.

Admittedly they may not have managed to actually do it what with the monster thing but still it seems like the course of action to try.

[RedRob]

Honestly, my bigger problem is with Birthright's story because everything is sunshine and rainbows and totally perfect. Birthright Corrin has no guilt over his decision, even though he totally should because it's the natural reaction to making that giant decision. Nohr Corrin has a lot of doubt over his decision and it's the human reaction to have. Birthright Corrin doesn't question his decision later and that makes him seem like much less human than Nohr Corrin which ultimately impacts how much I can tolerate him as a character. Nohr's Azura support is honestly perfect at this. I know a lot of people view this support as Nohr Corrin saying "Did I make the wrong choice?" and I get it. And I think that's honestly a super cool support. Birthright needs more of this questioning for me to accept it as a quality game.

This was a problem I brought up with Conquest, IS wants it to be the bad route with all of Corrin's angsting, yet still have Corrin as a hero, even with the contradictory premise of invading a country to save it. The story is bipolar, which really affects it's quality.

Originally I was going to post something larger, and more philosophical, but I looked backed, realize it was overly dramatic for something like this, and could be faster expressed though using certain characters as examples.

A character like Zero from Megaman who said this awesome line?

"I never cared about justice, and I don't recall ever calling myself a hero...I have always only fought for the people I believe in. I won't hesitate...If an enemy appears in front of me, I will destroy it!" (Ignore the link, it was like that when I copied and pasted it.)

Imagine if Corrin was like that, not caring about right or wrong, just fighting for his family and the people he believed in. Would have been a far more morally complex and engaging character than what we got in Conquest.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I just wonder why once your avatar finds out the king is literally a demonic impostor, why not just go to kaze and say "I need you to assassinate the king in secret. This may cost you your life but xander being king will end the war"

Or like any of the other characters that would be good for assassinations. It couldn't be that hard to find someone to at least try.

Admittedly they may not have managed to actually do it what with the monster thing but still it seems like the course of action to try.

while i like this idea, i think corrin's abit too much of a goody good to risk one of his friend's lives for an assassination attempt on the king.

[eclipse]

while i like this idea, i think corrin's abit too much of a goody good to risk one of his friend's lives for an assassination attempt on the king.

And guess what happens if Suzukaze fails?

Best case: Blamed on Hoshido, war intensifies.

Worst case: Pinned on Xander, who is then declared a traitor (along with anyone who supported him), which throws Nohr into a civil war, on top of their war with Hoshido. Corrin's now a traitor to both sides, while the problems within Nohr aren't fixed.

[jankmaster98]

Would it be super hard to assassinate at least Iago? I'm sure Nohr has enough cutthroat politicians gunning for his job that the blame could easily be shifted.

Edit: And while that's a short term solution and Garon could probably easily get another cronie in there, at least it frees up the idea for Xander or someone else to try and fill the power vacuum or install someone loyal who can.

Edited March 5, 2016 by jankmaster98

[NekoKnight]

I direct attempt on Garon's life would probably be impossible. He's a king living in a cutthroat nation after all, he probably has the best security there is. What I could see however is a strategic offing of his top supporters to slowly erode his powerbase. What I would have preferred to see over time is Kamui's shift from a naive and moral prince, to a cold and pragmatic one (with plenty of introspection and self-doubt). Nohr!Kamui could be a "the ends justify the means" sort of protagonist to contrast the classic hero of Hoshido!Kamui.

As long is Kamui is actively working towards a goal, I don't care if they make some (possibly critical) mistakes along the way.

[Azure Sen]

I know Conquest Corrin gets a lot of flak for being powerless, but that's honestly why I love him as a protagonist.

Making a character powerless can be a great way to get an audience to sympathize with a character, as long as it’s done well. But I personally found the opposite effect happened with me in Conquest, because it wasn’t done well; the more the narrative tried to convince me that Corrin was powerless, the more I found that they really weren’t and grew to actively dislike them.

The relationship between the Nohr siblings and Garon is honestly the coolest relationship I think FE has ever had. They all know he's a bad guy but because he's that much of a bad guy, they're absolutely powerless to directly stop him. They've made it abundantly clear: actively fighting against Garon is the equivalent of death. The siblings know this. They know their dad is a legit bad guy, but they obviously don't want to die trying to fight him. Plus you know, it's your dad and I can't imagine they'd think killing their dad is a good idea.

I disagree. Someone else brought up Camus, and I think that’s really an apt comparison to make, not just for Xander. The Nohr siblings are basically Camuses, except with loyalty to the nation replaced with familial love (and also extra murder threats). But this is more of a personal thing, so to each their own.

And I’d argue against the point that actively rebelling against Garon is impossible and could only end in defeat and death, but that’s been discussed in depth previously in this thread.

[spoiler=Nohr Chapter 15]I know after this chapter when we learn that Garon isn't actually Garon and that the siblings won't believe it gets a lot of flak, especially because Azura's solution is "if we take over Hoshido and expose him, then they'll believe us". And yeah, it doesn't quite make a lot of sense at first. But having thought about it for a while, I think it kinda works. It's not great, but if you think about it, if you were one of the Nohr kids and were told "btw your dad isn't actually your dad but a giant slime monster because your dad's been dead for years", would you honestly believe it? I can't say I would, especially because the supports reveal that Garon actually was a decent dad when he was actually alive.

[spoiler=CONQUEST SPOILERS]That’s not why people, and I personally, think the whole Chapter 15/16 situation is nonsensical and stupid. It makes no sense to me for two very big reasons:

First, Azura lets Corrin, and ONLY Corrin, see the crystal instead of waiting until they reunite with the other Nohr siblings. She waited until they were out of the Invisible Kingdom to show Corrin the crystal, so why not wait a little longer? It’s a really simple problem that could have been solved in a way that wasn’t just to railroad the narrative in a certain direction.

Second, Corrin immediately decides that invading Hoshido and having Garon sit on the magic throne to reveal his true form is the only solution to their problem. Not only does this contradict their prior advocacy of pacifism, but they is in essence now wanting to sacrifice an entire nation for what is a very selfish goal. They make it clear that this is not a sacrifice for the sake of both countries, or even just for Nohr alone, but for the sake of their siblings. Corrin’s instant acceptance of the Hoshido Invasion plan is even dumber because he doesn’t even bother trying to think of another way they could solve the problem that wouldn’t require so much death and destruction. The game trying to paint it as the only solution and thus preserve Corrin's heroism (and paint it as some sort of grand sacrifice on their part) doesn't work in the narrative's favor either.

Finally, the point about Garon being a decent dad when alive is moot because the only Nohr sibling who has good (or really any) memories of Garon as a parent is Xander. Leo and Elise were both very young when he died and was replaced, and Camilla was too embroiled in the conflicts between Garon’s concubines. All the other three have known of Garon is an abusive monster who constantly threatens to kill them. Why should they not at least entertain the idea that Garon has changed from the man Xander knew him as?

Honestly, my bigger problem is with Birthright's story because everything is sunshine and rainbows and totally perfect. Birthright Corrin has no guilt over his decision, even though he totally should because it's the natural reaction to making that giant decision. Nohr Corrin has a lot of doubt over his decision and it's the human reaction to have. Birthright Corrin doesn't question his decision later and that makes him seem like much less human than Nohr Corrin which ultimately impacts how much I can tolerate him as a character. Nohr's Azura support is honestly perfect at this. I know a lot of people view this support as Nohr Corrin saying "Did I make the wrong choice?" and I get it. And I think that's honestly a super cool support. Birthright needs more of this questioning for me to accept it as a quality game.

I’m curious, what reasons do you have for Corrin doubting their decision on Birthright beyond it “being the natural reaction to making such a giant decision”? (Which I’d argue isn’t as much of a certainty as you present it as, but the debates on human nature should be for another time and place.) I mean, if the situation was grayer than presented in game, I’d agree that maybe Corrin should be doubting their decision on Birthright. But Corrin has plenty of reasons to not doubt their decision on Birthright: Garon has tried to kill them no more than three times in a short span of time and used them as a walking bomb in order to realize his ambitions of conquering Hoshido, and it’s just been revealed that Garon also kidnapped them as a child and wiped their memories so they wouldn’t remember being kidnapped. Corrin has no ties to Nohr aside from their siblings and their servants, and the latter would follow them no matter what regardless. As far as I can see, there’s no reason for Corrin to doubt their decision on Birthright, but I’d definitely like to hear your opinion.

(Phew, that took a while! I think that's everything, but feel free to bring up anything I missed.)

Edited March 5, 2016 by AzureSen

[BruceLee]

Yes I feel exactly the same! And that's soo upsetting! I still remember seeing that reveal trailer, I was in my senior year in high school and when I got home from a long day I was treated to that epic opening cutscene and 'Lost in Thoughts all Alone' blaring loudly and... AHH IT LOOKED SO EPIC! Fates was an agonizing wait, and now that it's here it hasn't even met nearly HALF of my expectations and it makes me want to go back and replay Awakening or Path of Radiance, because the story is just that bad. Gameplay can only get you so far in a game that is very story driven. The gameplay is a reflection of your actions and honestly I can't enjoy myself when completing the maps is absolute nonsense for the plot. And to add insult to injury, I know for a fact that IS made the plots vague and Azura a mysterious airhead so you would be persuaded into buying Revelations. I hate that greedy, gimmicky shit, it's nothing but a kick to the groin to the fans. I expected better of you, IS.

The bolded. That's soooo true. I'm exactly the same, i find it hard to enjoy the battles when i know i'm fighting for retarded reasons. Basically it feels like the game is calling me a dumbass and yet i'm still doing what it asks me to do.

It's why even though i know Conquest's gameplay is really good i still won't enjoy it as much as i'd want to.

of America

I wish it wasn't such an accurate statement.

I don't know who i should like more, Trump or Nohr!Kamui.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I don't know who i should like more, Trump or Nohr!Kamui.

At least Nohr!Kamui can make their bullshit work. I don't see the entire universe conspiring to make Trump look like a flawless paragon.

[Nintales]

-- I'm still questing where, how and why the character had the moral standards he or she displayed in Chapter 2. I guess that's what happens when you leave raising your kidnapped son / daughter to others rather than actively molding them in your image.

If I'm correct, Kamui lived his/her whole life in a tower, away from the outside world. It's normal that someone like that would be crazy naive and idealistic to the point of that happening. But why did Garon not raise him/her on his own is another question.

-- We never do get a properly established motivation about why Iago is initially trying to kill Corrin to begin with. That said, I find it amusing that Iago is more hesitant / questioning of Garon wanting to make Corrin suffer when Iago has wanted their head from the beginning.

Pretty much one of my headcanons there, but it might be because Iago is scared about Corrin's ideal.

We're in Nohr, when everyone can be killed for literally no reason but just because you say so. Kamui and Iago's point of view are pretty different. Iago (while being way more annoying) seems closer to Izuka, while Kamui is just a dumb "let's save everyone" typical character.

What would happen if Kamui and Iago would enter in an argument?

Kamui could just try to have Iago's head.

He/She is the prince/princess. Again, the royal family literally has the right of life and death upon people. Kamui can just get Iago's head on a whim.

Meanwhile, most of the royal family would not just care about him. They only hate Iago because his actions against Kamui are despicable.

So he tries to get rid of him/her asap to secure his life. Simply.

But lol it's just something that the game could outright tell you instead of having people making stupid theories like that.

And yeah, they should have totally killed off Ganz/Iago waaaaay earlier and pretending them to be dead in battle. Why Ganz wasn't killed as soon as chapter 13 is just beyond stupid, especially when you had Camilla who could just have made up a story there.

[BruceLee]

At least Nohr!Kamui can make their bullshit work. I don't see the entire universe conspiring to make Trump look like a flawless paragon.

That sounds both hilarious and terrifying. I guess i'm leaning more towards Nohr!Kamui then.

[Thane]

As I've said earlier, I'm replaying Conquest, and chapter 18 left a sour taste in my mouth. All the siblings are gathered, and Corrin and Azura are super happy over the tense atmosphere; Corrin's like "hyuck hyuck hyuck, Xander and Ryouma sure are similar!" and...the two start having a vanity contest? What? Aren't they at war?

And then you have to save the four siblings because it's apparently wrong to only target four people - Corrin could've ended the war right then and there, but didn't. I suppose since his family was involved, he felt guilty and that it'd be easier to invade the whole bloody nation instead. I know Garon is the target, but Corrin sure seems to forget that, opting instead to poke fun of his older brothers rather than, I don't know STRATEGIZING? Talk to them as normal people? Try to explain his motivations? Anything at all?

Edited March 5, 2016 by Thane

[BruceLee]

As I've said earlier, I'm replaying Conquest, and chapter 18 left a sour taste in my mouth. All the siblings are gathered, and Corrin and Azura are super happy over the tense atmosphere; Corrin's like "hyuck hyuck hyuck, Xander and Ryouma sure are similar!" and...the two start having a vanity contest? What? Aren't they at war?

And then you have to save the four siblings because it's apparently wrong to only target four people - Corrin could've ended the war right then and there, but didn't. I suppose since his family was involved, he felt guilty and that it'd be easier to invade the whole bloody nation instead. I know Garon is the target, but Corrin sure seems to forget that, opting instead to poke fun of his older brothers rather than, I don't know STRATEGIZING? Talk to them as normal people? Try to explain his motivations? Anything at all?

Also i find it funny how Aqua and Corrin are all giggly saying it's a heartwarming moment even though the siblings are pretty much insulting each other.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Also i find it funny how Aqua and Corrin are all giggly saying it's a heartwarming moment even though the siblings are pretty much insulting each other.

Well it's supposed to be them laughing about how they're bickering like siblings, but considering that they're at war and have a deep hatred for each other, it doesn't work. Literally in any other context, it would've been fine.

[BruceLee]

Well it's supposed to be them laughing about how they're bickering like siblings, but considering that they're at war and have a deep hatred for each other, it doesn't work. Literally in any other context, it would've been fine.

That's true.

Edited March 5, 2016 by BruceLee

[semolinaro]

Corrin should have used the moment he was reunited with his siblings to tell Ryoma that something is wrong with Garon. Judging by Garon's ruthless and seemingly unprovoked atrocities towards Hoshido, I doubt he would have a hard time believing it. Hell, tell Xander too, but much earlier! If Xander is claiming that their father isn't the man he used to be, why wouldn't he believe you about Garon being a slime monster? If he regards you as family, he should do as much.