So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Alazen]

Dark Holy Elf didn't say "perfect" though. They said interesting instead of a "big hero".

A lot of proposed changes that have been discussed for Corrin involves him or her acting towards the most heroic course of option regardless of scenario e.g. " X is corrupt so I'll join a rebellion" which is standard "big hero" fare and something that has happened before in Fire Emblem(Marth in New Mystery) and a lot of the main characters tend towards. Changes like this remove the aspects that set the character apart from the other Fire Emblem main characters and would homogonises Corrin amongst the other Fire Emblem protagonists if she or he is just going to act and drive the plot in the same direction another character would.

It's understandable someone would find it less interesting if despite differences in character, environment and context Corrin just did the same things another Fire Emblem main hero would do in a roughly similar scenario.

>Pretending the narrative doesn't twist itself so that Corrin would be shown as a good boy who dindu nuffin'.

[eclipse]

Sorry to hear that. I don't know what happened or if it would be personal to ask, so I'll just wish you a speedy recovery.

[spoiler=Conquest endgame]I found those two elements to be awful, to be quite honest. Takumi had absolutely no reason to forgive Corrin, and neither did anyone else from his family. Corrin's actions caused them harm time and time again; hell, you annihilate Takumi's army and slay his retainers; I figure he'd be a lot more pissed off. We're never given a real reason other than the fact that he oh so desperately wanted to call Corrin his sibling which while not too far-fetched since Takumi's a good guy with a lot of self-confidence issues, but it still comes across as unbelievable, especially in spite of all that has happened.

The mirroring of the plot bothers me as well. It makes the choice feel redundant since you just get two slightly varied but similar results, ignoring the different paths you take to get there. It felt like a cop-out, like they were so afraid to make one version come across as better than the other - the funny thing is that they still failed given people's general opinions on Conquest.

[spoiler=Revelations]I've complained plenty about Revelations here (surprise surprise). In many aspects it's the worst story since it completely invalidates the other two, which is why I asked why you had played it. It has an awful pacing, relies even more than the other paths on plot contrivances or random events to move it forward and generally feels rushed with only the final destination planned out.

I'm looking forward to hearing more from you because in my personal opinion it gets even worse after chapter 19 which you're at right now.

Slipped and fell. Take care of your body, kids! And your mental health, too!

[spoiler=Conquest]People can change, and IIRC Takumi said something about being gone long before Chapter 23 (or whenever you kick his butt). From the "near death" scenes, it sounds like the dead can passively watch those in the world of the living. Perhaps Takumi chose to watch Corrin, and saw how things played out (Hoshidans being spared when possible, etc.). Still cheesy and gimmicky, though. Another possibility is that emotions are complicated - rarely is someone filled with absolute adoration or absolute hatred, with nothing in the middle. In Takumi's case, he may not have fully trusted Corrin, but it doesn't mean that he had to despise him.

IMO it was a business decision, not a cop-out. You're looking at it from your personal point of view. I'm looking at it from the point of view I had when I first picked up a copy of Fire Emblem, back in 2003. If IS had shit all over my decision because I didn't know any better (and seriously, not everyone is going to know every last detail about the release), I don't think I would've been a repeat customer.

[spoiler=Revelations]I just finished Chapter 20. It's still holding out as pretty bad. It feels like Awakening's writing.

The GOOD thing about Revelations is that it wraps up Hoshido/Nohr in a timely fashion. I kinda wish things had been that snappy in the other two routes.

[BruceLee]

If my sibling goes around killing my loved ones i'll be sure to apologize to him for any bad looks i gave him.

[CompteSecours]

I hate nohr's corrin because he doesn't do shit until the last chapters.

He has no ballz and no determination.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Corrin is paralysed with fear/indecision when it comes to betraying her dad. Wouldn't you be? You can attack Hans, yeah. And then assuming Hans doesn't just kill you, you would go home to be executed by your dad, a disappointment in the eyes of the elder brother you look up to. Cowardly? If you want to call it that, go ahead. But very real, and interesting to watch.

I prefer interesting situations to big heroes who always do the right thing and always have it work out because they're just that heroic.

I agree with this, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Yet thet aren't paralyzed with fear in Birthright or Revelation.

Nohr Corrin is spineless, weak willed and very stupid because that's the only way that horrid Conquest plot can exist.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Do you think anyone here who has been posting in this now-28 pages long thread wants to have a perfect main character? Do you really think we'd all be here discussing this matter for so long if we just thought Corrin simply wasn't good enough for us? I take it you've either not read or just ignored what we have been saying on this thread - or on this forum for about a year - if you make sweeping statements like that.

Some people absolutely do. Such as anyone who wants him to be more like Ike or Roy or Robin, who are basically that.

I find your criticisms of Corrin (that the narrative is too nice to her to avoid offending the player) much more on point. I even agree with them, to some extent. That wasn't what I was responding to. I was responding to arguments that Corrin needs to be more like those heroic FE mains with my opinion that I am happier that she isn't.

And please don't dismiss others' arguments with "you just haven't read what we've said". You seem to do that a lot, and it's not productive. As it happens I have read the entire thread. I don't respond to every point you make (sometimes because I agree, sometimes because I've seen you being extremely aggressive to anyone who disagrees with your view that Conquest's plot is without redeeming features and I don't feel like dealing with that).


Also yeah Corrin doesn't seem as weak-willed in Birthright. She is also, as far as I've played (C13), very boring.

[BruceLee]

Some people absolutely do. Such as anyone who wants him to be more like Ike or Roy or Robin, who are basically that.

Yeah, you've definitely not read the thread.

Using Ike as an example to show Corrin's flaws =/= wanting Corrin to be an exact copy of Ike.

[Thane]

Some people absolutely do. Such as anyone who wants him to be more like Ike or Roy or Robin, who are basically that.

I find your criticisms of Corrin (that the narrative is too nice to her to avoid offending the player) much more on point. I even agree with them, to some extent. That wasn't what I was responding to. I was responding to arguments that Corrin needs to be more like those heroic FE mains with my opinion that I am happier that she isn't.

And please don't dismiss others' arguments with "you just haven't read what we've said". You seem to do that a lot, and it's not productive. As it happens I have read the entire thread. I don't respond to every point you make (sometimes because I agree, sometimes because I've seen you being extremely aggressive to anyone who disagrees with your view that Conquest's plot is without redeeming features and I don't feel like dealing with that).

Also yeah Corrin doesn't seem as weak-willed in Birthright. She is also, as far as I've played (C13), very boring.

I apologize if I seemed rude or dismissive; a lot of people simply ignore arguments we've gone over multiple times. When you said that you prefer interesting situations, I just assumed you thought that we who dislike Corrin more than most simply wanted big damn heroes, which simply isn't true for most of us. Execution is everything; I'd be completely fine with Conquest Corrin being a self-centered bastard if that's how the narrative decided to treat them.

However, I think it's going too far to call me aggressive towards people who like Conquest; everyone's free to enjoy whatever they want, and I've always said that. When and how have I been going after people for liking Conquest? I get upset if someone ignores arguments in a discussion, but that's another matter entirely.

Corrin is very boring in Birthright as well. I find very little reedming with the character in general, aside from the interesting premise.

[Azure Sen]

Corrin is paralysed with fear/indecision when it comes to betraying her dad. Wouldn't you be? You can attack Hans, yeah. And then assuming Hans doesn't just kill you, you would go home to be executed by your dad, a disappointment in the eyes of the elder brother you look up to. Cowardly? If you want to call it that, go ahead. But very real, and interesting to watch.

I prefer interesting situations to big heroes who always do the right thing and always have it work out because they're just that heroic.

If Corrin and Garon actually had a relationship beyond "hey I killed your dad and kidnapped you, stuck you in a fortress to live in mostly isolation and never interacted with you, only brought you out because I needed a trojan horse to enter Hoshido and kill their queen, and have tried to kill you no less than three times," I would agree with you. But given that they have no actual relationship, Garon being his father is never portrayed as the reason he doesn't rebel, and Hoshido Corrin has no problem betraying him without a second thought, I have to disagree. And if Corrin came up with a half-decent lie for killing Hans, Garon wouldn't have cared, given how little he cares about anyone. Heck, he probably would have been proud of Corrin for showing the kind of ruthlessness Garon expects.

Bold: These two things are not mutually exclusive.

Some people absolutely do. Such as anyone who wants him to be more like Ike or Roy or Robin, who are basically that.

Except the only way that people have been comparing those three to Corrin is in terms of their agency and willingness to take action within the narrative, as a way to show how Nohrrin is wanting in the backbone department. Wanting your protagonist to be proactive =/= wanting them to be perfect.

I was responding to arguments that Corrin needs to be more like those heroic FE mains with my opinion that I am happier that she isn't.

Aside from their unwillingness to make a move against Garon and being part of the "evil" kingdom, Corrin is basically a heroic FE main even in Conquest. Same general morality, same devotion to their allies, same super-special trait about them (in Corrin's case, there a multiple), same otherworldly charisma that inspires devotion in others, same (default) unique or semi-unique hair color, same super-special ultimate weapon, same moments of self-doubt (although Corrin's are cranked way up in Conquest), etc..

[Quintessence]

I must say guys that arguing so deliberately about the game and Corrin is delicate because of the high psychological aspect and impact of the game.

So far, I've only played Conquest, for reference. So I don't know anything about Birthright and Revelations and I don't care about spoilers.

First of all, one can't expect Corrin to be a strong-willed character given his psychological weakness. He was imprisoned in a Fortress in solitude for, what, a decade and half? Being in solitude for an individual for so much time and seeing the Nohr nobles take care of you and share their affections with you is what makes him care for getting Garon's and his siblings' approval. Everything that Corrin does is satisfy Garon because he, intrinsically, needs a paternal figure with all the emotions related to it. How will you defy someone you want approval of? We cannot expect a heroic character with iron will, determination, etc., because of all the psychological impact he has been submitted to. Knowing from one point to another that your family is not your true family and some individuals claim they are your true family leaves a huge effect on the character. I'm not excusing Corrin about his dumps but it is understandable under his circumstances.

My major issue with Fates in general is the first 6 chapters:

1. How can you develop the events in such an abnormally fast pace for such a decisive moment? Six chapters is disrespectful in that sense. How is experiencing 2 chapters in Hoshido and 2 chapters in Nohr a solid foundation to take a decision with such impact? I speak in terms of player experience. If anything they should've done 15 or 20 chapters between Nohr and Hoshido right before the decisive moment. I know it is not practical in terms of gameplay and whatnot, but imo it's just not right due to the psychological impact of events on Corrin.

2. How the heck is Sumeragi going with baby Corrin to Cheve to go to a "peace treaty"? Who in the effing world of war will go to "enemy territory" with an effing baby? That's nonsense. Sorry for bursting here but the sole idea has no head nor foot. If anything I would fault Mikoto and Sumeragi for such an irresponsible action. One can say that Garon was human enough to spare Corrin's life and letting him leave in Nohr. Garon is a hero, Mikoto and Sumeragi suck.

Those are my major issues with Fates. I don't know if these issues are adressed in the other versions (which I assume no).

[spoiler=Conquest]The rest of Corrin's dumps like following Garon's orders of going to the dragon's mouth, the massacre at Cheve, the Sage's death, sparing some Hoshidans but leaving others die or killing them, Ryoma's death, Takumi's BS, not being aware of Azura's Dark Song in the theatre (lmao), Lillith's death, Corrin invading Hoshido for the sake of making Garon seat on the throne to reveal his true form to the Nohr royals to convince them of Garon's evil form, etc., are just product of Corrin's weakness and incompetence

Edited March 13, 2016 by Quintessence

[Emblem Blade]

I must say guys that arguing so deliberately about the game and Corrin is delicate because of the high psychological aspect and impact of the game.

So far, I've only played Conquest, for reference. So I don't know anything about Birthright and Revelations and I don't care about spoilers.

First of all, one can't expect Corrin to be a strong-willed character given his psychological weakness. He was imprisoned in a Fortress in solitude for, what, a decade and half? Being in solitude for an individual for so much time and seeing the Nohr nobles take care of you and share their affections with you is what makes him care for getting Garon's and his siblings' approval. Everything that Corrin does is satisfy Garon because he, intrinsically, needs a paternal figure with all the emotions related to it. How will you defy someone you want approval of? We cannot expect a heroic character with iron will, determination, etc., because of all the psychological impact he has been submitted to. Knowing from one point to another that your family is not your true family and some individuals claim they are your true family leaves a huge effect on the character. I'm not excusing Corrin about his dumps but it is understandable under his circumstances.

My major issue with Fates in general is the first 6 chapters:

1. How can you develop the events in such an abnormally fast pace for such a decisive moment? Six chapters is disrespectful in that sense. How is experiencing 2 chapters in Hoshido and 2 chapters in Nohr a solid foundation to take a decision with such impact? I speak in terms of player experience. If anything they should've done 15 or 20 chapters between Nohr and Hoshido right before the decisive moment. I know it is not practical in terms of gameplay and whatnot, but imo it's just not right due to the psychological impact of events on Corrin.

2. How the heck is Sumeragi going with baby Corrin to Cheve to go to a "peace treaty"? Who in the effing world of war will go to "enemy territory" with an effing baby? That's nonesense. Sorry for bursting here but the sole idea has no head nor foot. If anything I would fault Mikoto and Sumeragi for such an irresponsible action. One can say that Garon was human enough to spare Corrin's life and letting him leave in Nohr. Garon is a hero, Mikoto and Sumeragi suck.

Those are my major issues with Fates. I don't know if these issues are adressed in the other versions (which I assume no).

[spoiler=Conquest]The rest of Corrin's dumps like following Garon's orders of going to the dragon's mouth, the massacre at Cheve, the Sage's death, sparing some Hoshidans but leaving others die or killing them, Ryoma's death, Takumi's BS, not being aware of Azura's Dark Song in the theatre (lmao), Lillith's death, etc., are just product of Corrin's weakness and incompetence

Corrin had no control over what Lilith would do and they had no idea that she was going to take that fatal blow for them, that's out of the problem. Everything else is mostly due to Corrin not knowing what to do or knowing what would happen but not taking full measures to do what should be done. When you're in a situation where decisions are hard and you have Nohr's best strategist in the book (Leo) who can help you, making these decisions shouldn't be hard since you can ask Leo for help...and Corrin doesn't ask him (at all to my extent of the a full Conquest run I did).

[BruceLee]

[spoiler=Conquest]The rest of Corrin's dumps like following Garon's orders of going to the dragon's mouth, the massacre at Cheve, the Sage's death, sparing some Hoshidans but leaving others die or killing them, Ryoma's death, Takumi's BS, not being aware of Azura's Dark Song in the theatre (lmao), Lillith's death, Corrin invading Hoshido for the sake of making Garon seat on the throne to reveal his true form to the Nohr royals to convince them of Garon's evil form, etc., are just product of Corrin's weakness and incompetence

Now if only we could have the game acknowledge that Corrin's weak and incompetent instead of telling us he's heroic, brave, amazing, etc.

[Azure Sen]

First of all, one can't expect Corrin to be a strong-willed character given his psychological weakness. He was imprisoned in a Fortress in solitude for, what, a decade and half? Being in solitude for an individual for so much time and seeing the Nohr nobles take care of you and share their affections with you is what makes him care for getting Garon's and his siblings' approval. Everything that Corrin does is satisfy Garon because he, intrinsically, needs a paternal figure with all the emotions related to it. How will you defy someone you want approval of? We cannot expect a heroic character with iron will, determination, etc., because of all the psychological impact he has been submitted to. Knowing from one point to another that your family is not your true family and some individuals claim they are your true family leaves a huge effect on the character. I'm not excusing Corrin about his dumps but it is understandable under his circumstances.

2. How the heck is Sumeragi going with baby Corrin to Cheve to go to a "peace treaty"? Who in the effing world of war will go to "enemy territory" with an effing baby? That's nonsense. Sorry for bursting here but the sole idea has no head nor foot. If anything I would fault Mikoto and Sumeragi for such an irresponsible action. One can say that Garon was human enough to spare Corrin's life and letting him leave in Nohr. Garon is a hero, Mikoto and Sumeragi suck.

If Corrin in the game actually showed any desire for his siblings' or Garon's approval, I would agree. But Corrin tries to subvert Garon's orders when he disagrees with them, gets increasingly despondent with his inability to prevent the horrible actions his father sanctions, and ultimately hatches a plan to kill Garon because of how much he disagrees with Garon (and also because Garon is a slime monster). Corrin only starts pretending to act the way his father expects him to when he's luring Garon into a trap. Also Corrin wasn't in complete solitude, he was surrounded by three retainers who cared for him deeply, he admits that Gunter was more of a father figure to him that his supposed actual father, and his siblings are noted to have visited him as frequently as they could.

(Sometimes it feels like I've missed some major scene explaining that Corrin is obsessed with the approval of Garon and the Nohr sibs, given how frequently it gets brought up as one of their motivations.)

Bolded: ...I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not. He only spared Corrin so he could use them as an assassination tool, wanted Gunter to whip/starve them based on their gender, and in general only cares about making Corrin suffer. Compared to that, one act of stupidity is pretty forgivable.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

ONE act of stupidity?

you mean the act of stupidity which threw the entire game's plot into motion?

i'm sorry but i think this is kinda a big deal and a prime example of Fates's story being well, bad, the catalyst event for why everything happen was "samurai dad took child to a "peace treaty for no earthly reason"

unless i'm wrong, please tell me that samurai dad had a good reason for bringing a baby into what might've been an obvious trap.

note bringing a child with you to anything that could put it in danger was a bad idea in FE4 and Elthin was called out for it by Quan, but even he had a lapse in judgement and allowed her to come anyways.

Edited March 13, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[BruceLee]

ONE act of stupidity?

you mean the act of stupidity which threw the entire game's plot into motion?

i'm sorry but i think this is kinda a big deal and a prime example of Fates's story being well, bad, the catalyst event for why everything happen was "samurai dad took child to a "peace treaty for no earthly reason"

Stupid? Yes.

Prime example of the story being bad? No.

You're nitpicking, completely ignoring the point of AzureSen's post.

Edited March 13, 2016 by BruceLee

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

dude the story is ass and i agree with you on it, i don't see why the event that snowballed into the rest of the game isn't a prime example of the game's story being bad.

like, lets say that WW3 happened over some guy in Sweden not getting his grilled cheese sandwich so he shoots the leader of Britain and that somehow spirals into WW3.

would that not be the dumbest thing ever?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh man, I have no idea how to do proper quotes from multiple sources on this forum, it keeps screwing up my browser. Sorry.

Yeah, you've definitely not read the thread.

Using Ike as an example to show Corrin's flaws =/= wanting Corrin to be an exact copy of Ike.

And apparently, you haven't read my previous post, or you're just rude. Please do not accuse me of not reading this thread again. It is insulting.

Here are three examples you yourself have used saying you wanted Corrin to be like Ike:

"I often imagine what Ike(for example) would have done in that situation. And then i realize Kamui is a little bitch."

"Huh, I wonder why Ike even bothered fighting back against Ashnard. What can he and his little mercenary gang do against a man who controls an entire army right?" (in response to someone explaining that Corrin didn't lead a rebellion against Garon because her odds of success would be poor and she would die)"

"Again, details. Just don't let Corrin be a coward. Should Ike have handed over Elincia when his fort was surrounded by Daein? He and his mercenaries would have died if it wasn't for being rescued by the laguz. That's what i want from Corrin, fight or die."

You may not want Corrin to be an "exact copy" of Ike but you certainly want her to copy some key personality traits, namely his bravery, unwillingness to compromise his morals, and never-say-die attitude. To you, it makes Corrin a bad character that she not share those. To me, it does not, and in fact I prefer that she doesn't.

(I also find it amusing that the only character in Path of Radiance I think is actually a good character, Soren, did in fact want to surrender Elincia in that circumstance. I think this reveals much about our divergent tastes in characters.)

I would agree with you. But given that they have no actual relationship, Garon being his father is never portrayed as the reason he doesn't rebel, and Hoshido Corrin has no problem betraying him without a second thought, I have to disagree.

Oh, I don't think Corrin has that much loyalty to Garon, specifically, although it's pretty clear at the start of the game she wants to impress him. She really wants things to work out with him (wouldn't you?), but yeah it's stupid, wishful thinking. Hell, she does the same thing with Mikoto whom she has even less of a relationship with (though obviously Mikoto is a better human); I'd say she craves a parental figure rather badly! However, I think ultimately the real reason that she doesn't rebel has a lot more to do with her siblings, especially Xander. Corrin knows exactly how Xander would respond to betrayal of Garon (and in fact, how he does respond, in both routes! Only a threat in Conquest, of course, but...) and Corrin can't deal with that, so she tries to please her dad as best she can and minimize harm until she can reveal him as a slime monster. She sacrifices innocent Hoshidans so that she can maintain a happy relationship with her family. I write this fully realising that a number of people will read this saying "and that's why Corrin sucks", but for me that's what makes her interesting.

Wanting your protagonist to be proactive =/= wanting them to be perfect.

That's fair. Personally, I'd rather have an non-proactive one than a perfect one (if that's the choice), because the former is more unusual and, IMO, more interesting. If Corrin is "good" (certainly she has a bunch of traits we'd associate with good people) but doing bad things, it's interesting to ask why. I found nothing interesting about how most previous FE mains behaved, with only a few exceptions. You're free to disagree.

I'm obviously fine with having an interesting, flawed, but more proactive main character, too! However, some flaws (or other character traits) require a character be less proactive. I can think of excellent characters (from things much better-written than FE) who aren't very proactive at all, for instance either because they are overly loyal, or they are abuse victims, for instance.

I apologize if I seemed rude or dismissive; a lot of people simply ignore arguments we've gone over multiple times. When you said that you prefer interesting situations, I just assumed you thought that we who dislike Corrin more than most simply wanted big damn heroes, which simply isn't true for most of us. Execution is everything; I'd be completely fine with Conquest Corrin being a self-centered bastard if that's how the narrative decided to treat them.

However, I think it's going too far to call me aggressive towards people who like Conquest; everyone's free to enjoy whatever they want, and I've always said that. When and how have I been going after people for liking Conquest? I get upset if someone ignores arguments in a discussion, but that's another matter entirely.

Corrin is very boring in Birthright as well. I find very little reedming with the character in general, aside from the interesting premise.

I definitely agree that it isn't true for all of you, yes. People dislike Corrin for different reasons (some I agree with, some I don't). It wasn't my intention to paint everyone with the same brush. When I attacked the arguments of people who wanted Corrin to be more like Ike (or in general, wanted her to be more heroic, the implication being that's how we should judge protagonists), I was referring only to people who fit that description. This is the second time today that someone has assumed I was responding to them when I wasn't so I apparently should try to be more careful about phrasing my replies. Sorry about that.

In regards to your question in your second paragraph, I think you have come across as aggressive on subjects related to Conquest's writing in several threads that I've read here, but I'm not sure if this thread is the place to cite the reasons I feel that way. If you're really curious where I got that impression you can PM me.

[NekoKnight]

I'm obviously fine with having an interesting, flawed, but more proactive main character, too! However, some flaws (or other character traits) require a character be less proactive. I can think of excellent characters (from things much better-written than FE) who aren't very proactive at all, for instance either because they are overly loyal, or they are abuse victims, for instance.

I definitely agree that it isn't true for all of you, yes. People dislike Corrin for different reasons (some I agree with, some I don't). It wasn't my intention to paint everyone with the same brush. When I attacked the arguments of people who wanted Corrin to be more like Ike (or in general, wanted her to be more heroic, the implication being that's how we should judge protagonists), I was referring only to people who fit that description. This is the second time today that someone has assumed I was responding to them when I wasn't so I apparently should try to be more careful about phrasing my replies. Sorry about that.

Bolded 1: Can you list these positive examples of protagonists who lack agency? I'd like to know what you consider to be a well written character,

Bolded 2: If you don't want people to misunderstand to whom your posts are directed at, you should specify who you are talking about.

[Quintessence]

If Corrin in the game actually showed any desire for his siblings' or Garon's approval, I would agree. But Corrin tries to subvert Garon's orders when he disagrees with them, gets increasingly despondent with his inability to prevent the horrible actions his father sanctions, and ultimately hatches a plan to kill Garon because of how much he disagrees with Garon (and also because Garon is a slime monster). Corrin only starts pretending to act the way his father expects him to when he's luring Garon into a trap. Also Corrin wasn't in complete solitude, he was surrounded by three retainers who cared for him deeply, he admits that Gunter was more of a father figure to him that his supposed actual father, and his siblings are noted to have visited him as frequently as they could.

(Sometimes it feels like I've missed some major scene explaining that Corrin is obsessed with the approval of Garon and the Nohr sibs, given how frequently it gets brought up as one of their motivations.)

Bolded: ...I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not. He only spared Corrin so he could use them as an assassination tool, wanted Gunter to whip/starve them based on their gender, and in general only cares about making Corrin suffer. Compared to that, one act of stupidity is pretty forgivable.

In reference to the first paragraph, Corrin is just going through character development when he realizes Garon's ways are not right and they just keep dooming Nohr's reputation as a kingdom, which is why he refuses to follow Garon's orders strictly. But the basis is the basis, he needed approval and wanted to show Muk (Garon) and his siblings that he is a worthy Nohr Prince. Another individual would've done research about the conflict between the kingdoms and look for an alternate way to bring peace, like making a Liberation Army with the Ice Tribe, Cheve and the Theatre city. But due to such events, he did what he did and the avalanche of events and dumps happened.

In reference to Garon sparing Corrin, I'm not bringing up a defense for him but rather showing why he let him be a Nohrian Prince. Another ruler would've killed baby Corrin without a second thought. I don't know with certainty if Garon trully wanted to make Corrin suffer, he indeed said that he would never do any harm to his children, but being possessed just leave people to keep wondering and doubting about true Garon. In the end, the Nohrian siblings state that Garon in the past wasn't as he is in the story and they wanted, or at least, Xander, wanted him to be as he was.

[Emblem Blade]

dude the story is ass and i agree with you on it, i don't see why the event that snowballed into the rest of the game isn't a prime example of the game's story being bad.

like, lets say that WW3 happened over some guy in Sweden not getting his grilled cheese sandwich so he shoots the leader of Britain and that somehow spirals into WW3.

would that not be the dumbest thing ever?

People like to the character but not the game designers who made the game, makes sense, totally not. Corrin may be the reason for why the individual options of Birthright and Conquest took place starting from Chapter 6 (not taking Revelations into account) but that came as a result of what happened before the game as shown what happened in their flashback in Chapter 4 and consequentially leading to a chain reaction. Nohr captures Corrin, Hoshido then captures Azura. Years later, a more 'mature' Corrin gets sent out on a suicide quest by their 'father' and then ends up near the Hoshido border before being re-introduced to their origin family. Corrin then runs onto the battlefield where both families are about to fight each other then the trouble starts. Had Garon not had Sumeragi killed and then taking a very young infant Corrin into Nohr officially, chances are that Fates would have a different plotline. Overall, Corrin isn't at fault for Conquest's bad storyline in the end, the designers failed at making a good backstory to Fates.

[BruceLee]

dude the story is ass and i agree with you on it, i don't see why the event that snowballed into the rest of the game isn't a prime example of the game's story being bad.

like, lets say that WW3 happened over some guy in Sweden not getting his grilled cheese sandwich so he shoots the leader of Britain and that somehow spirals into WW3.

would that not be the dumbest thing ever?

I agree, Sumeragi bringing a little child to the ''peace meeting'' is incredibly stupid and dumb, and is the start of everything. But in the end, it's just a plot hole that could have been avoided if the writers bothered giving it some more thought to give a good explanation for Kamui's kidnapping.

And apparently, you haven't read my previous post, or you're just rude. Please do not accuse me of not reading this thread again. It is insulting.

Here are three examples you yourself have used saying you wanted Corrin to be like Ike:

"I often imagine what Ike(for example) would have done in that situation. And then i realize Kamui is a little bitch."

"Huh, I wonder why Ike even bothered fighting back against Ashnard. What can he and his little mercenary gang do against a man who controls an entire army right?" (in response to someone explaining that Corrin didn't lead a rebellion against Garon because her odds of success would be poor and she would die)"

"Again, details. Just don't let Corrin be a coward. Should Ike have handed over Elincia when his fort was surrounded by Daein? He and his mercenaries would have died if it wasn't for being rescued by the laguz. That's what i want from Corrin, fight or die."

You may not want Corrin to be an "exact copy" of Ike but you certainly want her to copy some key personality traits, namely his bravery, unwillingness to compromise his morals, and never-say-die attitude. To you, it makes Corrin a bad character that she not share those. To me, it does not, and in fact I prefer that she doesn't.

(I also find it amusing that the only character in Path of Radiance I think is actually a good character, Soren, did in fact want to surrender Elincia in that circumstance. I think this reveals much about our divergent tastes in characters.)

I just don't want Kamui to be a coward. That's what i said in all those posts, i used Ike as an example because he's not a coward. You seem to be dividing the trait ''coward'' into a bunch of other triats to make it sound like i want Kamui to become Ike.

Kamui is in a position to strike Hans down to protect the innocent civilians getting slaughtered in front of him, but doesn't because he's afraid of the consequences. Thus he's a coward.

And i think Soren's a good character as well, but not sure what point you're trying to make there. Soren was willing to sacrifice Elincia because he's practical, he knew they were at a disadvantage against Daein and acting against them wasn't in their benefit. It fit his character.

[Emblem Blade]

I agree, Sumeragi bringing a little child to the ''peace meeting'' is incredibly stupid and dumb, and is the start of everything. But in the end, it's just a plot hole that could have been avoided if the writers bothered giving it some more thought to give a good explanation for Kamui's kidnapping.

I just don't want Kamui to be a coward. That's what i said in all those posts, i used Ike as an example because he's not a coward. You seem to be dividing the trait ''coward'' into a bunch of other triats to make it sound like i want Kamui to become Ike.

Kamui is in a position to strike Hans down to protect the innocent civilians getting slaughtered in front of him, but doesn't because he's afraid of the consequences. Thus he's a coward.

And i think Soren's a good character as well, but not sure what point you're trying to make there. Soren was willing to sacrifice Elincia because he's practical, he knew they were at a disadvantage against Daein and acting against them wasn't in their benefit. It fit his character.

Soren also has a slight issues like Takumi, but in Soren's case, he was treated like trash in the past since he's a Branded. He's also only loyal to Ike (although in PoR he had doubts on some of Ike's actions such as helping the Daein civilians after a battle and Ike rushing off to his final battle against the Black Knight) but he's still the top tactician.

Also, I have said before, there are times when avoiding danger and consequences is not a bad idea. While confronting Hans and slaying him is simple enough, when you have an older sister who's willing to kill anyone who makes her younger sibling upset next to you why don't you ask said sibling to deal with the one that is making you uneasy? I can't really say that Corrin is at fault all the time. In Conquest, you have Leo (once you get him), who can easily tell Corrin to shut up and rethink what the plan is but Leo never does that. Xander, who Corrin respects, also never takes any action to correct his younger sibling when the strategy is completely absurd and makes no sense (Xander doesn't even follow through with his threats). Elise doesn't take action and Camilla doesn't really show any reason to disobey her 'father' even when some of his 'commands' to Hans and Iago make less sense then before. Corrin takes the blame in the beginning to near mid-game but afterwards, the Nohr Siblings really don't do anything to help their sibling make their decisions wisely.

[Azure Sen]

ONE act of stupidity?

you mean the act of stupidity which threw the entire game's plot into motion?

i'm sorry but i think this is kinda a big deal and a prime example of Fates's story being well, bad, the catalyst event for why everything happen was "samurai dad took child to a "peace treaty for no earthly reason"

unless i'm wrong, please tell me that samurai dad had a good reason for bringing a baby into what might've been an obvious trap.

note bringing a child with you to anything that could put it in danger was a bad idea in FE4 and Elthin was called out for it by Quan, but even he had a lapse in judgement and allowed her to come anyways.

Because Ethlyn brought her child with her to a battlefield, not to what was presumed to be peace negotiations? Because Sumeragi had no reason in-story, as far as we are told, to doubt Garon's intentions? Because according to Kaze, Sumeragi did bring an escort and thought they could handle it, and didn't expect to be isolated from them and slaughtered by Garon?

Oh man, I have no idea how to do proper quotes from multiple sources on this forum, it keeps screwing up my browser. Sorry.

I usually stay with the page so I can quote a particular post multiple times, and then address points brought up in other posts in a different post/on the next page OR, if the notification comes about new posts, just expand those so I can keep up. (I have to admit, it's a little draining.

Oh, I don't think Corrin has that much loyalty to Garon, specifically, although it's pretty clear at the start of the game she wants to impress him. She really wants things to work out with him (wouldn't you?), but yeah it's stupid, wishful thinking. Hell, she does the same thing with Mikoto whom she has even less of a relationship with (though obviously Mikoto is a better human); I'd say she craves a parental figure rather badly! However, I think ultimately the real reason that she doesn't rebel has a lot more to do with her siblings, especially Xander. Corrin knows exactly how Xander would respond to betrayal of Garon (and in fact, how he does respond, in both routes! Only a threat in Conquest, of course, but...) and Corrin can't deal with that, so she tries to please her dad as best she can and minimize harm until she can reveal him as a slime monster. She sacrifices innocent Hoshidans so that she can maintain a happy relationship with her family. I write this fully realising that a number of people will read this saying "and that's why Corrin sucks", but for me that's what makes her interesting.

I mean, I guess the problem here is that for me, being an interesting character alone doesn't make them likable. Especially if these interesting traits come at the cost of stripping the character of all of their agency, or making them act in a way that makes no sense for their previously established character. This is probably the reason why I struggled through Conquest; sure the idea of a protagonist who has doubts and does unscrupulous things for personal, even selfish, reasons can be interesting (and a lot of my favorite characters are this sort of anti-hero), but the way they executed it with Corrin is so unsympathetic and unlikable I really didn't care about her struggles, especially when The Monumentally Dumb Plan was set in motion. It's also why I will always prefer Hoshido Corrin over Nohrrin; yeah, there's nothing particularly groundbreaking about her, but she has a clear goal, knows how she wants to achieve it, and has agency within the narrative.

(And, honestly, you've made Conquest's plot sound far more interesting in a few posts than Conquest did in its entire length, but then again you put more thought into it than it feels like the writers did.)

That's fair. Personally, I'd rather have an non-proactive one than a perfect one (if that's the choice), because the former is more unusual and, IMO, more interesting. If Corrin is "good" (certainly she has a bunch of traits we'd associate with good people) but doing bad things, it's interesting to ask why. I found nothing interesting about how most previous FE mains behaved, with only a few exceptions. You're free to disagree.

I will politely disagree, then. I don't really care if a character is particularly interesting (and I feel that I probably have a much more lenient definition of interesting) as long as they have some likable traits. Personally It's hard for me to hate characters unless they do something despicable within the context of the narrative, are excused for their actions by the narrative/other characters when they clearly shouldn't be, or generally don't have any redeeming traits. Unfortunately, Nohrrin for me fits into the first two criteria.

I'm obviously fine with having an interesting, flawed, but more proactive main character, too! However, some flaws (or other character traits) require a character be less proactive. I can think of excellent characters (from things much better-written than FE) who aren't very proactive at all, for instance either because they are overly loyal, or they are abuse victims, for instance.

I'm interested in hearing your response to this too. It's always good to get perspective on what other people consider likable or unlikable about a character, even if you don't necessarily agree with their assessment.

In reference to the first paragraph, Corrin is just going through character development when he realizes Garon's ways are not right and they just keep dooming Nohr's reputation as a kingdom, which is why he refuses to follow Garon's orders strictly. But the basis is the basis, he needed approval and wanted to show Muk (Garon) and his siblings that he is a worthy Nohr Prince. Another individual would've done research about the conflict between the kingdoms and look for an alternate way to bring peace, like making a Liberation Army with the Ice Tribe, Cheve and the Theatre city. But due to such events, he did what he did and the avalanche of events and dumps happened.

I disagree. Corrin already realized that Garon's ways were brutal and wrong in Chapter 2, and being a worthy Nohr Prince isn't one of his motivations. He needed Garon's approval to continue acting against him, but didn't really seem to desire it at all otherwise.

In reference to Garon sparing Corrin, I'm not bringing up a defense for him but rather showing why he let him be a Nohrian Prince. Another ruler would've killed baby Corrin without a second thought. I don't know with certainty if Garon trully wanted to make Corrin suffer, he indeed said that he would never do any harm to his children, but being possessed just leave people to keep wondering and doubting about true Garon. In the end, the Nohrian siblings state that Garon in the past wasn't as he is in the story and they wanted, or at least, Xander, wanted him to be as he was.

I doubt it. Corrin is a valuable asset as a political hostage, and any other ruler (including maybe even the real Garon) would have used that as leverage in negotiations with Hoshido to get access to Hoshido's food/get Azura back. The real Garon is dead at the time of Corrin's abduction, and replaced with the slime monster; the monster possessed his soulless corpse. He also repeatedly says in cutscenes that he wants Corrin to suffer as much as possible, which even Iago, the game's resident puppy punter, is shocked by.

Edited March 13, 2016 by AzureSen

[Dark Holy Elf]

I usually stay with the page so I can quote a particular post multiple times, and then address points brought up in other posts in a different post/on the next page OR, if the notification comes about new posts, just expand those so I can keep up. (I have to admit, it's a little draining.

...

I mean, I guess the problem here is that for me, being an interesting character alone doesn't make them likable.

I will politely disagree, then. I don't really care if a character is particularly interesting (and I feel that I probably have a much more lenient definition of interesting) as long as they have some likable traits.

To the first: thanks!

And... yeah, that's totally fair, and explains much. I don't really care that much whether a character is likable. With antagonists, this is almost a given, some are very unlikable but they can still be interesting/good characters.

Bolded 1: Can you list these positive examples of protagonists who lack agency? I'd like to know what you consider to be a well written character,

Sure thing. Spoilers noted because yeaaah.

You'll note I didn't say protagonists in my own post. I don't really think that protagonists should be held to different standards from either major, non-villain characters in this case? Regardless, the three examples I'll cite (I could come up with more) are all either a protagonist, or a point of view character the player/reader is supposed to sympathise with, even if not the main.

Valkyrie Profile's protagonist:

Lenneth Valkyrie is a loyal servant of Odin and Freya. She spends the vast majority of the game doing exactly what they want of her, collecting einherjar and artifacts to help out the war effort in Asgard. If you follow the game's main plot, she will lead the war effort in against Surt. You, as the player, infer from Surt's dialog at the end that Surt might actually be the one in the right in the war, but you never really stopped to question this. The End.

Alternatively, you satisfy a bunch of semi-obtuse requirements to make Lenneth regain her memories from her time as a mortal and fall in love with someone she knew then, although as a result of other events in the plot, this man (Lucian) will die. Lenneth only shows agency at the very end of the game when she finally refuses to follow Freya's orders and seeks out Lucian's murderer, Loki, who is the game's actual villain, killing him to avenge Lucian and save the world.

She is an intriguing character partly because of her reactions to the various einherjar she meets, as someone who has lost all mortal emotion grappling with the themes of death and love her einherjar deal with, forshadowing the effects of such things on her when she finally wakes to them. However, she shows only very little agency at any point in the game, and none at all on one of the game's routes.

Liveship traders, supporting PoV character:

Serilla is an advisor to the Satrap (king), a young man who is indolent and selfish, advising her about Bingtown, a territory under his control. She tries to be a good advisor despite the fact that he does not respect her and has no interest in her besides wanting to sleep with her. While they are on route to a diplomatic trip to Bingtown, he threatens to give her to a thuggish captain of the ship on which they are travelling if she does not sleep with him; she refuses, thinking it a bluff. It isn't.

Eventually, she is returned to the Satrap who is sick. The two of them arrive in Bingtown and Serilla attempts to act as a mediator for the city which is currently in political upheaval. Although she wants what is best for the city, she becomes a pawn to the political faction she finds herself allied with (which turns out to be rather unsavoury), and memories of her abuse leave her too scared to contradict them and assert herself, which causes the poltiical problems for a time to get worse. With the help of one of the other major characters, she does eventually manage to free herself, but before then she causes a lot of problems because she isn't able to stand up to then.

She shows some agency at points, certainly, but her lack of proactiveness at certain points is key to the plot and a big part of her character. She is interesting because she shows one way that good people can be manipulated by less moral, but assertive, thugs.

Final Fantasy XIII point of view character:

Hope Estheim is a teenager on a prison train to be exiled to the extremely dangerous land of Pulse, a death sentence. A breakout on the train occurs, led by a man named Snow. He hands out firearms to any other prisoners willing to fight. Hope's mother agrees to take one to protect her son, and in the resulting fight, she is killed.

Hope is emotionally destroyed by this, of course. Circumstances then cause him to be isolated with Snow and the other party members, on the run from government. Hope loathes Snow, blaming him for his mother's death, but every time he tries to confront Snow about it, he loses his nerve. Snow, meanwhile, unaware of the hatred Hope bears him (or even that it was his mother who died), is often playful and joking with the boy, which only stakes his hatred more. There's one memorably awful moment when Snow tells hope that "The army is no match for NORA!" NORA is the name of Snow's little rebel group... but also the name of Hope's mother.

Eventually, consumed with despair and hatred over the awful situation he is in - bereft of his mother, on the run from society, and doomed to die from a magical curse - Hope eventually resolves to kill Snow. This is the first act of real agency Hope shows, and it's an awful one! He fails, and eventually thanks to some selfless acts from Snow, is able to forgive him.

Again, there is some agency shown at points, but his lack of agency at key moments is core to his character and what makes him interesting. He serves as a lesson for how one can build up another man's evil in one's mind even when it is unjustified, and that not finding a productive outlet for these emotions can be damaging.

Incidentally, the FFXIII character is quite reviled by some people, precisely because he is a murderous coward! (He's certainly the worst of the three I cited as a moral being.)

Also incidentally I think that VP and FFXIII both have some writing problems (like the majority of video games), although I think these particular character arcs are well-done (better than Corrin's, if that's not clear!). Liveship Traders is pretty straight-up excellent though, highly recommended.

[Sunwoo]

You may not want Corrin to be an "exact copy" of Ike but you certainly want her to copy some key personality traits, namely his bravery, unwillingness to compromise his morals, and never-say-die attitude. To you, it makes Corrin a bad character that she not share those. To me, it does not, and in fact I prefer that she doesn't.

Dude. No.

What I want Kamui to have is either agency or responsibility. Agency means that they're in control of their actions, something that they lack throughout Conquest. Responsibility means that the story won't excuse them or try to protect them if they fuck up, and let characters make their own decisions about Kamui's actions.

If Nohr!Kamui acted exactly the way they did, but the plot didn't try to paint them as some shining paragon of light, I would be perfectly fine with that. In fact, that's basically what RD's Micaiah is. Micaiah is Nohr!Kamui, except she's not done horribly and is treated realistically by the story. The narrative doesn't condemn her, nor does it want us to believe she's some paragon. Conquest, on the other hand, wants us to believe that Kamui did nothing wrong.

I feel like you're misinterpreting, either purposefully or not, what people's problems with Kamui are and projecting what you think onto them.