In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[Mox]

Ok, so this gave me the right inspiration to head into this hell of a day. Thanks! :D

Especially this line:

Hey, uh, Garon, since you're in a foreign country doesn't that mean that the King of Nestra or whatever it is would have a problem with you murdering his people? No? Okay.

Made me laugh so hard. :")

[RedRob]

No one still has answered my question as to why Garon kidnapped Corrinmui but did not bother to instill any of his ideals or goals into the kid.

My guess, Anankos was too insane to think of that. Would also explain why Gooron is so blatantly evil, his controller is too busy being insane to have some restraint.

[Shadows Interceptor]

I actually think that no one recognizing Azura makes sense. It is pretty clear from the over the shoulder perspective of Garon you see for about two seconds that the royal box is nowhere near the stage. We as the players absolutely know who she is because we get a good close up look at her- Corrin and company who were likely up in that royal box or squeezed somewhere else in the crowd, do not get that. It may be I'm looking at this as though seen through my eyes- even with corrective lenses I cannot pick out details like facial features at more than thirty feet or so. Put me up in a balcony looking down at a stage and I certainly can't recognize an individual unless they are wearing a distinctive color or style of clothing. Yes, Azura does have that distinctive blue hair, but maybe it's not as uncommon as we might think?

Thanks for another bunch of laughs blah!

[RedRob]

I actually think that no one recognizing Azura makes sense. It is pretty clear from the over the shoulder perspective of Garon you see for about two seconds that the royal box is nowhere near the stage. We as the players absolutely know who she is because we get a good close up look at her- Corrin and company who were likely up in that royal box or squeezed somewhere else in the crowd, do not get that. It may be I'm looking at this as though seen through my eyes- even with corrective lenses I cannot pick out details like facial features at more than thirty feet or so. Put me up in a balcony looking down at a stage and I certainly can't recognize an individual unless they are wearing a distinctive color or style of clothing. Yes, Azura does have that distinctive blue hair, but maybe it's not as uncommon as we might think?

Thanks for another bunch of laughs blah!

Yeah, but who else has magical powers involving singing?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Yeah, but who else has magical powers involving singing?

Or can summon water? Not to mention she's singing her signature song. I can get not recognising her by appearance, but everything else is a major tip-off.

[saisymbolic]

I just find it a little suspicious that no one was suspicious of Azura conveniently being absent during the performance. But I guess there is some evidence that doesn't necessarily point to her.

The most incriminating piece of evidence is the song. The only person that sings a song with that melody is Azura (and Shigure). The only difference was the words and the beat--the melody was the exact same.

EDIT: Plus, the water powers. No one can water bend except Azura.

Edited April 7, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Lanko]

It's unfortunate we can't use her water bending abilities in battle. That would be pretty cool if we turned her into a mage. An attack or even another kind of buff.

[RedRob]

EDIT: Plus, the water powers. No one can water bend except Azura.

And Dragon Corrin in cutscenes. Which is ironic considering that's where firebending came from in Avatar, dragons. Heck, Aang and Corrin are pretty similar in personality. They're both kind people who's kindness ends up causing them to act freaking stupid, yet everything still works out for them. Only difference is Corrin suffers from that the whole story, while Aang's was just for the finale.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

"-What kind of an Opera House is this? I've been to Operas, and, newsflash, they don't have artificial lakes with boats as the pews!"

Bruh i've played in an "opera" and it still doesn't have that 8/10 too much water -ign

Its just cursed enough that we need to eat yellow rice before performing

or something like that

[Shadows Interceptor]

Haha, I completely forgot about Azura's waterbending. Whoops! That would be a pretty big tell, wouldn't it? :) I could see the song being a coincidence, as there is no reason I can recall that her theme is a song only she knows, but that ability to manipulate water . . .

Edited April 7, 2016 by Shadows Interceptor

[blah the Prussian]

Ok, so this gave me the right inspiration to head into this hell of a day. Thanks! :D

Especially this line:

Hey, uh, Garon, since you're in a foreign country doesn't that mean that the King of Nestra or whatever it is would have a problem with you murdering his people? No? Okay.

Made me laugh so hard. :")

Glad to hear it!

[Tolvir]

One of the things that bothered me was Hoshido attacking in a neutral city. No one noticed the large amounts of armed forces entering the city, and into the Opera House? Its a neutral city, I would imagine large amounts of forces is not exactly a common sight there. On top of that, I want to know who ordered them to attack in a Neutral City. This doesnt seem like something Hoshido would do. They are more respecting of another country/state's wishes, and I would imagine would respect their wish to stay neutral, so why attack? Why not wait for an ambush outside the city, especially since Garon would of been more vulnerable traveling back home than in an Opera House full of guards.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Well, as much as the games and Hoshido itself would like to have us believe that they're completely on the level, they really aren't. Just look back at C12, even. Ryoma basically occupies a hospital and uses it to hold a sick person hostage in order to try to force Corrin to come with him. That's seriously Garon-level villainy right there. And the funny thing? No one even calls him out on it. It's all "We have to push through and save Elise!" and no "Wow, Ryoma, way to be a hypocritical douchebag."

So I absolutely believe that Hoshido would launch an attack in the middle of a neutral city (and I wouldn't be surprised if Ryoma himself ordered it) and do so while self-righteously declaring that they're the good guys. And, of course, Hoshido gets out of it consequence free, because Garon has to one-up their brazenness by murdering the city in retaliation.

[Water Mage]

Well, as much as the games and Hoshido itself would like to have us believe that they're completely on the level, they really aren't. Just look back at C12, even. Ryoma basically occupies a hospital and uses it to hold a sick person hostage in order to try to force Corrin to come with him. That's seriously Garon-level villainy right there. And the funny thing? No one even calls him out on it. It's all "We have to push through and save Elise!" and no "Wow, Ryoma, way to be a hypocritical douchebag."

So I absolutely believe that Hoshido would launch an attack in the middle of a neutral city (and I wouldn't be surprised if Ryoma himself ordered it) and do so while self-righteously declaring that they're the good guys. And, of course, Hoshido gets out of it consequence free, because Garon has to one-up their brazenness by murdering the city in retaliation.

This again? Dear god, how many times this was explained?

Very well, let me explain this once again,

First of all, the place isn't a hospital, it's only a place where medicine is stored.

Second, it's war, occupying a hospital, is a legitimate, rational and necessary tactic. You can't win a war without playing dirty.

Third, he never held anyone hostage.

Fourth, again this war, why in hell would he help heal the princess of the enemy nation? It's would be incredibly stupid of Ryoma to allow Elise to have the medicine.

Fifth, once again, it's war, why would he allow Nohr's army cross over an area the Hoshidan army occupied?

So no, Ryoma wasn't being a hyprocritical douchebag.

He was being a rational and pragmatic leader.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Water Mage

[Tolvir]

This again? Dear god, how many times this was explained?

Very well, let me explain this once again,

First of all, the place isn't a hospital, it's only a place where medicine is stored.

Second, it's war, occupying a hospital, is a legitimate, rational and necessary tactic. You can't win a war without playing dirty.

Third, he never held anyone hostage.

Fourth, again this war, why in hell would he help heal the princess of the enemy nation? It's would be incredibly stupid of Ryoma to allow Elise to have the medicine.

Fifth, once again, it's war, why would allow Nohr's army cross over an area the Hoshidan ay occupied?

So no, Ryoma wasn't being a hyprocite.

He was being a rational and pragmatic leader.

I fully agree with the Elise part, it makes sense, though a line or two from Ryoma making him seem more sympathetic to it would of been nice. Though I clearly remember it being a Hospital, and while there was no one attending to the place shown, it doesnt mean there weren't any. Turning it into a battlefield needlessly would of put innocent lives at risk for really no reason as there were no enemy forces there. Even if it was a medicine storage facility, there would still have to be people tending to the place, and would still put lives at risk. Turning the place full of medicine into a battlefield runs the risk of the medicine being destroyed, and could lead to the death of innocent lives because of the medicine not being available. Let alone whatever basic guards and workers that were there.

Unfortunately we dont get any information as to why they would of taken over the facility. It would of been nice to know because right now all I can think of is Ryoma took it over just to confront Corrin, which needlessly put the lives of his soldiers, his retainers, his brother, himself, and the people working at the facility at risk just for the opportunity to confront him, which could of been done outside the place.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[Water Mage]

I fully agree with the Elise part, it makes sense, though a line or two from Ryoma making him seem more sympathetic to it would of been nice. Though I clearly remember it being a Hospital, and while there was no one attending to the place shown, it doesnt mean there weren't any. Turning it into a battlefield needlessly would of put innocent lives at risk for really no reason as there were no enemy forces there. Even if it was a medicine storage facility, there would still have to be people tending to the place, and would still put lives at risk. Turning the place full of medicine into a battlefield runs the risk of the medicine being destroyed, and could lead to the death of innocent lives because of the medicine not being available. Let alone whatever basic guards and workers that were there.

That's the point.

Without the medicine, the Nohrian army would recieve a considerable loss.

And even if there were no enemy forces, it's still a vital place to Nohr, due to having medicine, it would be an incredible act of idiocy to not occupy it.

And the place is a castle, meaning that most likely only the nobilty of Nohr had access to the medicine. Occupying this place would hardly cause any harm to innocent peasants.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Water Mage

[Tolvir]

That's the point.

Without the medicine, the Nohrian army would recieve a considerable loss.

And even if they were no enemy forces, it's still a vital place to Nohr, due to having medicine, it would be an incredible act of idiocy to not occupy it.

And the place is a castle, meaning that most likely only the nobilty of Nohr had access to the medicine. Occupying this place wiuld hardly cause any harm to innocent peasants.

Thatis the problem though, we dont know if it was a medicine facility for Nohrian Forces, or just for basic treatment. While innocent peasants likely dont get the treatment, what about the innocent civilians of the capital or one of the cities? If it is for Nohrian forces then sure, it is completely understandable. It is a time of war, you do what you can to win. At the same time though if it was just a basic facility then there really is no reason to take it over.

Essentially all I am getting at is while it is completely justifiable in war time, it is still a darker act committed by Hoshido because either way it leads to the death of someone. Whether it be innocent lives, or just injured soldiers. Both can be considered a more evil act, and it does murk up the water a bit for Hoshido rather than them being the lawful good kingdom of rainbows and butterflies. Sure, its Nohrian soldiers lives, but at the same time I dont think it would be considered OK if you went through a Enemy Medical Facility and stabbed and killed all the wounded soldiers when they cant even fight back. Really isnt a difference between killing a wounded soldier and cutting of his treatment and letting him suffer.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[Water Mage]

Thatis the problem though, we dont know if it was a medicine facility for Nohrian Forces, or just for basic treatment. While innocent peasants likely dont get the treatment, what about the innocent civilians of the capital or one of the cities? If it is for Nohrian forces then sure, it is completely understandable. It is a time of war, you do what you can to win. At the same time though if it was just a basic facility then there really is no reason to take it over.

Essentially all I am getting at is while it is completely justifiable in war time, it is still a darker act committed by Hoshido because either way it leads to the death of someone. Whether it be innocent lives, or just injured soldiers. Both can be considered a more evil act, and it does murk up the water a bit for Hoshido rather than them being the lawful good kingdom of rainbows and butterflies. Sure, its Nohrian soldiers lives, but at the same time I dont think it would be considered OK if you went through a Enemy Medical Facility and stabbed and killed all the wounded soldiers even though they couldnt fight back. Really isnt a difference between killing a wounded soldier and cutting of his treatment and letting him suffer.

If I'm not mistaken the characters outright call the place a palace which already implies that this isn't a place for the treatment of commoners.

Also, it doesn't matter if that place was or wan't built for the Nohrian army.

It's war, and during war, any facilty of Nohr works for the Nohrian army. No exceptions.

I'm not saying it's not a dark act, but it's not hypocritical, and even if it were, in war you gotta be a hypocrite in order to win with minimized losses.

Besides, during Birthright, Hoshido does play dirty as well.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Water Mage

[joshcja]

Man even in the fucked up system that was warring states japan, saccing a med center was still big bad medicine worthy of ye olde sodoku.

Only if you did it in person though, if you sent in some random mooks and then killed them after they fucked everything inside to death it was completely honorable. (Seriously Bushido was even more fucked up than chivalry)

That said fates has the fucking main "not japanese at all" royal as A FUCKING SAMURAI. So assuming the game has even the loosest possible connection to historical fact is flawed logic on every single level.

Edited April 7, 2016 by joshcja

[Tolvir]

If I'm not mistaken the characters outright call the place a palace which already implies that this isn't a place for the treatment of commoners.

Also, it doesn't matter if that place was buitl for the Nohrian army.

It's war, and during war, any facilty of Nohr works for the Nohrian army. No exceptions.

I'm not saying it's not a dark act, but it's not hypocritical, and even if it were, in war you gotta be a hypocrite in order to win with minimized losses.

Besides, during Birthright, Hoshido does play dirty as well.

I dont think you understand, I am not arguing with you, I am agreeing. It in no way is hypocritical when Nohr would likely do worst. And it is in a time of war, you do what you can to win, within reason of course. In a way I even understand what Nohr did in Cheve. It was horrible, but at the same time if you want these type of problems to stop, making examples of people is what you do. Its what Britain and Spain did with the pirate problems they had. Strung up their mangled dead bodies in the harbor as examples to all the other pirates if they got caught. I guarantee that made a few of them think twice.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Very well, let me explain this once again,

First of all, the place isn't a hospital, it's only a place where medicine is stored.

Second, it's war, occupying a hospital, is a legitimate, rational and necessary tactic. You can't win a war without playing dirty.

Third, he never held anyone hostage.

Fourth, again this war, why in hell would he help heal the princess of the enemy nation? It's would be incredibly stupid of Ryoma to allow Elise to have the medicine.

Fifth, once again, it's war, why would he allow Nohr's army cross over an area the Hoshidan army occupied?

So no, Ryoma wasn't being a hyprocritical douchebag.

He was being a rational and pragmatic leader.

As I recall, the city was touted for its medical facilities and that quickly became the point for the trip once they realized Elise was ill.

Yes, playing dirty and being pragmatic is a legitimate tactic, if you're that kind of army. Hoshido is constantly pushed as the honourable ones with a the moral high ground, with said honour and morality following the stereotypical fantasy kind. It's fine if Ryoma wants to be pragmatic, but someone really should call him out for Hoshido spewing all that crap and then not adhering to it.

And if we're being extremely, painstakingly technical here, yes, he never physically held anyone hostage. However, he was clearly being an opportunist and holding Elise's life hostage by offering that "trade". It's hostage-taking in all but name. Is it pragmatic? Sure. But again, consider how Hoshido is held up as this great, perfect light.

And really, we could also turn this around an ask why Nohr is considered so bad. With regards to the war effort itself, while Garon tends to be excessive about how things are executed, a lot of what he does is pretty pragmatic. Yes, he's totally batshit insane when it comes to whatever he's trying to personally do with Corrin, but that's more or less where the insanity ends.

I guess I'm more annoyed by the double standard than anything. Hoshido's pragmatism is held up as heroic when there's not even much of a line between theirs and Nohr's tactics.

[Water Mage]

I dont think you understand, I am not arguing with you, I am agreeing. It in no way is hypocritical when Nohr would likely do worst. And it is in a time of war, you do what you can to win, within reason of course.

I know that you aren't arguing with me.

To be honest, this subject has been discussed already, and it tends to make me angry, so I do apologize if I was rude with. I'm really sorry.

This topic tends to make me ramble a lot.

As I recall, the city was touted for its medical facilities and that quickly became the point for the trip once they realized Elise was ill.

Yes, playing dirty and being pragmatic is a legitimate tactic, if you're that kind of army. Hoshido is constantly pushed as the honourable ones with a the moral high ground, with said honour and morality following the stereotypical fantasy kind. It's fine if Ryoma wants to be pragmatic, but someone really should call him out for Hoshido spewing all that crap and then not adhering to it.

And if we're being extremely, painstakingly technical here, yes, he never physically held anyone hostage. However, he was clearly being an opportunist and holding Elise's life hostage by offering that "trade". It's hostage-taking in all but name. Is it pragmatic? Sure. But again, consider how Hoshido is held up as this great, perfect light.

And really, we could also turn this around an ask why Nohr is considered so bad. With regards to the war effort itself, while Garon tends to be excessive about how things are executed, a lot of what he does is pretty pragmatic. Yes, he's totally batshit insane when it comes to whatever he's trying to personally do with Corrin, but that's more or less where the insanity ends.

I guess I'm more annoyed by the double standard than anything. Hoshido's pragmatism is held up as heroic when there's not even much of a line between theirs and Nohr's tactics.

As I said before, in Birthright, the Hoshidan army also plays pretty dirty.

Besides, the employ ninjas in their army, who are know for playing dirty.

And even if the Hoshido is honourable, in war, being honourable is suicide, and besides, Hoshido is employing all of this tactics in self-defense. So they are doing that because their situatuation required.

After all, would you be honorable towards the army of a country that attacked you withou being provoked?

Edited April 7, 2016 by Water Mage

[Thane]

Wait, Ryouma not seizing a golden opportunity is somehow considered dishonorable? Why would he aid the princess of the nation he's at war with? This is not a question of Nohr and Hoshido, this is a question of not being stupid; if the situation were reversed, and it was Xander blocking the way of Sakura's treatment, I'd only argue that he's an idiot because he's on the blatantly evil side, but I'd accept it as a perfectly viable method.

Ryouma did the right thing, and I would've been annoyed if any of the siblings had chosen to help the enemy like that - I'm already pissed enough at how Conquest deals with Zora and his plan.

[Lanko]

As I recall, the city was touted for its medical facilities and that quickly became the point for the trip once they realized Elise was ill.

Yes, playing dirty and being pragmatic is a legitimate tactic, if you're that kind of army. Hoshido is constantly pushed as the honourable ones with a the moral high ground, with said honour and morality following the stereotypical fantasy kind. It's fine if Ryoma wants to be pragmatic, but someone really should call him out for Hoshido spewing all that crap and then not adhering to it.

And if we're being extremely, painstakingly technical here, yes, he never physically held anyone hostage. However, he was clearly being an opportunist and holding Elise's life hostage by offering that "trade". It's hostage-taking in all but name. Is it pragmatic? Sure. But again, consider how Hoshido is held up as this great, perfect light.

And really, we could also turn this around an ask why Nohr is considered so bad. With regards to the war effort itself, while Garon tends to be excessive about how things are executed, a lot of what he does is pretty pragmatic. Yes, he's totally batshit insane when it comes to whatever he's trying to personally do with Corrin, but that's more or less where the insanity ends.

I guess I'm more annoyed by the double standard than anything. Hoshido's pragmatism is held up as heroic when there's not even much of a line between theirs and Nohr's tactics.

Maybe that's how IS tried to portray the game as gray... Market one side as evil, dark and glory-hunger, then in the game make them extremely honorable (Zola's chapter) and not kill anybody, while the pure, peace seeking nation plays a more pragmatic strategy in their route sometimes...

I actually wouldn't doubt it...

[Tolvir]

As I recall, the city was touted for its medical facilities and that quickly became the point for the trip once they realized Elise was ill.

Yes, playing dirty and being pragmatic is a legitimate tactic, if you're that kind of army. Hoshido is constantly pushed as the honourable ones with a the moral high ground, with said honour and morality following the stereotypical fantasy kind. It's fine if Ryoma wants to be pragmatic, but someone really should call him out for Hoshido spewing all that crap and then not adhering to it.

And if we're being extremely, painstakingly technical here, yes, he never physically held anyone hostage. However, he was clearly being an opportunist and holding Elise's life hostage by offering that "trade". It's hostage-taking in all but name. Is it pragmatic? Sure. But again, consider how Hoshido is held up as this great, perfect light.

And really, we could also turn this around an ask why Nohr is considered so bad. With regards to the war effort itself, while Garon tends to be excessive about how things are executed, a lot of what he does is pretty pragmatic. Yes, he's totally batshit insane when it comes to whatever he's trying to personally do with Corrin, but that's more or less where the insanity ends.

I guess I'm more annoyed by the double standard than anything. Hoshido's pragmatism is held up as heroic when there's not even much of a line between theirs and Nohr's tactics.

Its not exactly dishonorable. That and Hoshido isnt ever really claimed as being the "Honorable" kingdom. I think the situation that was attempted to be painted between the two is that neither are really the good guys. Sure Garon and his two besties are as evil as Cobra Commander, but Nohr as a whole is not. Same with Hoshido, the Royalty and the people in charge are good people, but the actual people of Hoshido seem to be a mixed bag, with some being a bunch of racist piles of human shit, and some being generally good people. For the most part that is the most realistic aspect to this game. They are both for the most part Neutral. Whether they lean more towards Neutral Good and Neutral Evil depends upon the people at hand, but they both are neither good nor evil, just Hoshido and Nohr.