In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[Namarid]

I'm already pissed enough at how Conquest deals with Zora and his plan.

(Are you insane Thane? Clearly killing thousands of hoshidan nobodies is more logical than killing their royalty)

Edited April 7, 2016 by Tactician. D

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I know that you aren't arguing with me.

To be honest, this subject has been discussed already, and it tends to make me angry, so I do apologize if I was rude with. I'm really sorry.

This topic tends to make me ramble a lot.

As I said before, in Birthright, the Hoshidan army also plays pretty dirty.

Besides, the employ ninjas in their army, who are know for playing dirty.

And even if the Hoshido is honourable, in war, being honourable is suicide, and besides, Hoshido is employing all of this tactics in self-defense. So they are doing that because their situatuation required.

After all, would you be honorable towards the army of a country that attacked you withou being provoked?

Of course not and I would have no problem if the story and Ryoma actually owned it instead of hiding behind self-righteousness. I know I make fun of Takumi a fair bit, but at least he's honest about this stuff.

I've only recently started on Birthright, but even if Hoshido does play dirty in it (which... changes nothing, honestly, since they do so in Conquest too), do the story or the characters actually care? Do they actually question their actions? Or do they just keep screaming about those filthy Nohrian scum and their dirty tactics?

Wait, Ryouma not seizing a golden opportunity is somehow considered dishonorable? Why would he aid the princess of the nation he's at war with? This is not a question of Nohr and Hoshido, this is a question of not being stupid; if the situation were reversed, and it was Xander blocking the way of Sakura's treatment, I'd only argue that he's an idiot because he's on the blatantly evil side, but I'd accept it as a perfectly viable method.

Ryouma did the right thing, and I would've been annoyed if any of the siblings had chosen to help the enemy like that - I'm already pissed enough at how Conquest deals with Zora and his plan.

By the standards of the game, absolutely. Why shouldn't he help her? Because it's pragmatic. But if Nohr did it, the game wouldn't hesitate to call them filthy Nohrian scum for doing as much, whereas Ryoma doing it doesn't get so much as a comment.

Maybe that's how IS tried to portray the game as gray... Market one side as evil, dark and glory-hunger, then in the game make them extremely honorable (Zola's chapter) and not kill anybody, while the pure, peace seeking nation plays a more pragmatic strategy in their route sometimes...

I actually wouldn't doubt it...

Hmmm, perhaps. If that's the case, though, I don't think they did a great job of it. I feel like even Conquest's story still tries really hard to dance around actually calling Hoshido gray.

Its not exactly dishonorable. That and Hoshido isnt ever really claimed as being the "Honorable" kingdom. I think the situation that was attempted to be painted between the two is that neither are really the good guys. Sure Garon and his two besties are as evil as Cobra Commander, but Nohr as a whole is not. Same with Hoshido, the Royalty and the people in charge are good people, but the actual people of Hoshido seem to be a mixed bag, with some being a bunch of racist piles of human shit, and some being generally good people. For the most part that is the most realistic aspect to this game. They are both for the most part Neutral. Whether they lean more towards Neutral Good and Neutral Evil depends upon the people at hand, but they both are neither good nor evil, just Hoshido and Nohr.

I feel like that presentation is pretty blatant, though. Yes, there's potential for deconstruction, but as I stated above, the game seems to dance around it at best, even in the route that's supposed to be sympathetic to Nohr.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Water Mage]

Of course not and I would have no problem if the story and Ryoma actually owned it instead of hiding behind self-righteousness. I know I make fun of Takumi a fair bit, but at least he's honest about this stuff.

I've only recently started on Birthright, but even if Hoshido does play dirty in it (which... changes nothing, honestly, since they do so in Conquest too), do the story or the characters actually care? Do they actually question their actions? Or do they just keep screaming about those filthy Nohrian scum and their dirty tactics?

By the standards of the game, absolutely. Why shouldn't he help her? Because it's pragmatic. But if Nohr did it, the game wouldn't hesitate to call them filthy Nohrian scum for doing as much, whereas Ryoma doing it doesn't get so much as a comment.

Remember one fact,

Nohr attacked first.

And without provocation from Hoshido.

From that moment, Nohr has lost any and all rights to call any of Hoshido's tactics dirty.

After that move why wouldn't Hoshidans call Nohrians scum?

Even if they have a good reason for the war, which is revealed and explained in Birthright, the fact that they attacked first and without provocation still stands.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Water Mage

[Thane]

By the standards of the game, absolutely. Why shouldn't he help her? Because it's pragmatic. But if Nohr did it, the game wouldn't hesitate to call them filthy Nohrian scum for doing as much, whereas Ryoma doing it doesn't get so much as a comment.

You have yet to give a reason as to why he should help her. She's the princess of an enemy nation that, for all he knows, just killed his mother and stole his little sibling with a legendary Hoshidan weapon - he bargained to get the most out of the situation without any bloodshed, and Corrin refused, leaving him no choice but to take him back by force. I would go into more detail, but I don't want to derail the thread or include spoilers that could ruin it for Blah.

If Xander had done the same, the game would've called him out on it because he blindly serves his father, not because the methods were questionable.

[saisymbolic]

Are we still talking about how Ryoma wouldn't give Elise the medicine as if that is the worst thing in the entire world?

He was just treating her like the adult she technically is.

[Namarid]

If roles were switched I think it would be better if Xander just let them have the medicine. Sure it would be really stupid, but the effort to make nohr not completely evil would of been nice.

[Lanko]

Are we still talking about how Ryoma wouldn't give Elise the medicine as if that is the worst thing in the entire world?

He was just treating her like the adult she technically is.

Pretty much this.

Ryoma unintentionally bolstered Elise's strength and resolve, as he shows to her the world is a harsh place. Angry, she no longer faked drills and trained to become a powerful, speedy and mobile mage.

Bolstered by her new view on the world, Elise starts wrecking havoc and burning Hoshidan scum to crisps, while also providing more power for her nation, as she starts acting like the 18+ adult capable of consenting to sexual intercourse that she is (according to U.S PENAL CODE SECTION 261-269), has a child that spends time training in the Deeprealms for his/her glorious return to smash Hoshido, providing the army with another unity capable of using Dragon Veins while having more classes available to change and extra abilities.

On a nation with shortage of resources, not needing to spend time and money with E ranks weapons (as the kid will come with at least C Rank) is a godsend, not to mention all the exp this kid does not need to steal, it's a godsend and a reason for her to be worshiped and respected by her troops and siblings.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Lanko

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I

Remember one fact,
Nohr attacked first.
And without provocation from Hoshido.
From that moment, Nohr has lost any and all rights to call any of Hoshido's tactics dirty.
After that move why wouldn't Hoshidans call Nohrians scum?
Even if they have a good reason for the war, which is revealed and explained in Birthright, the fact that they attacked first and without provocation still stands.

There's clearly bad blood between the two nations to begin with, but yes, I'll admit that there wasn't any particular provocation for Nohr's army coming to the border. I disagree that they forfeit that right, though—or a least they should still have the right to tell Hoshido to shut up about calling their tactics dirty.

And yes, there's no reason to not call Nohr scum from an in-character standpoint, but I still feel like that's the story bends over to justify them and them alone.

You have yet to give a reason as to why he should help her. She's the princess of an enemy nation that, for all he knows, just killed his mother and stole his little sibling with a legendary Hoshidan weapon - he bargained to get the most out of the situation without any bloodshed, and Corrin refused, leaving him no choice but to take him back by force. I would go into more detail, but I don't want to derail the thread or include spoilers that could ruin it for Blah.

If Xander had done the same, the game would've called him out on it because he blindly serves his father, not because the methods were questionable.

No choice but to take him back by force? Because Corrin isn't her/his own person who can autonomously make decisions?

I guess this highlights my issue more, though. I admit that there's probably not good reason for him to help Elise, but Hoshido is held up as the ultimate good guys, which brings an impossible standard along with it. So when Hoshido has to be pragmatic, everyone just kind of ignores it. Hell, I would've even been satisfied by Corrin calling him out on it and Ryoma shooting back with a "Welcome to war." type deal.

I'm not so convinced that they wouldn't call Xander out on it for being dishonourable, though. I'll have to cut that off here for the same reason you're not going into more detail, though.

Are we still talking about how Ryoma wouldn't give Elise the medicine as if that is the worst thing in the entire world?

Nah, more that it's just as questionable as anything else Hoshido feels like getting huffy about.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[saisymbolic]

If roles were switched I think it would be better if Xander just let them have the medicine. Sure it would be really stupid, but the effort to make nohr not completely evil would of been nice.

No, it would have given people more reason to call Hoshido!Xander an idiot.

"This idiot fights for his dad, knowing he is evil scumbag, but can't even bring himself to follow his own self-imposed morals by not giving enemy medicine? Why he not just join Hoshido?! Why is Xander such an idiot?!"

I'm not sure if that is a spoiler or not.

Edited April 7, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[blah the Prussian]

Uh, Elise is an enemy combatant here. Ryoma in that chapter generally is an asshole, but I have no problem with him denying care to Elise. He's not holding her hostage, either. I still want an answer on why Ryoma wasted an entire army just trying to get Corrin back, though.

[Namarid]

No, it would have given people more reason to call Conquest!Xander an idiot.

I know it's a dumb move,but I imagine it would of been interesting to see the hoshidan siblings have doubts over if all nohrians are truly evil.

[Water Mage]

Uh, Elise is an enemy combatant here. Ryoma in that chapter generally is an asshole, but I have no problem with him denying care to Elise. He's not holding her hostage, either. I still want an answer on why Ryoma wasted an entire army just trying to get Corrin back, though.

Well, one could say that Corrin is still technically a war prisioner in Nohr, even thought he chose Nohr in Conquest. So bringing an army to save a war prisioner who is royalty isn't too strange.

By the way blah, since were one the subject, this conversation about Ryoma denying Elise medicine reminds me that a lot people call Takumi evil because he shoots Elise in Cheve.

What's your opinion on Takumi shooting Elise?

Was it fair game?

Edited April 7, 2016 by Water Mage

[Lanko]

Uh, Elise is an enemy combatant here. Ryoma in that chapter generally is an asshole, but I have no problem with him denying care to Elise. He's not holding her hostage, either. I still want an answer on why Ryoma wasted an entire army just trying to get Corrin back, though.

You are wrong. Ryoma is a master strategist and his training in the Wind mountains allows him to understand someone's mental state and attributes.

Knowing that Corrin is a pure-hearted pacifist who doesn't want to kill anybody, Ryoma takes the opportunity to march an army into Nohrian territory. If he wins, great, more power for him. If he loses, he will put the blame on loses on Corrin, making him feel guilty and more susceptible to either a mental breakdown or regret, either way an easier target for Ryoma.

The army wanted land and to strike at Nohr, Corrin was just an excuse Ryoma used to achieve that end and at the same time strike psychologically at the traitorous Corrin.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Lanko

[saisymbolic]

Uh, Elise is an enemy combatant here. Ryoma in that chapter generally is an asshole, but I have no problem with him denying care to Elise. He's not holding her hostage, either. I still want an answer on why Ryoma wasted an entire army just trying to get Corrin back, though.

Because he is precious cimmanon little sibling that is still honorable, just and lovable despite being the indirect reason as to why Mother is dead, many people are dead and the Hoshidan Town Square has hundreds of gold in damage.

[Truthblade]

Uh, Elise is an enemy combatant here. Ryoma in that chapter generally is an asshole, but I have no problem with him denying care to Elise. He's not holding her hostage, either. I still want an answer on why Ryoma wasted an entire army just trying to get Corrin back, though.

If It was just Corrin, your confusion would make sense, but Corrin also has a lot of allies as well that will stop any attempts to bring him to Hoshido....

Unless you were asking why he's even bothering to bring Corrin back.

[Thane]

No choice but to take him back by force? Because Corrin isn't her/his own person who can autonomously make decisions?

I guess this highlights my issue more, though. I admit that there's probably not good reason for him to help Elise, but Hoshido is held up as the ultimate good guys, which brings an impossible standard along with it. So when Hoshido has to be pragmatic, everyone just kind of ignores it. Hell, I would've even been satisfied by Corrin calling him out on it and Ryoma shooting back with a "Welcome to war." type deal.

Alright, this'll be my last response to this on this thread. If you want to continue, then please necro a thread discussing Conquest's plot.

[spoiler=Conquest spoilers]First of all, Corrin is an enemy commander with a legendary weapon which Ryouma needs back, so no matter what, a confrontation was necessary; what's the point of the game if your enemy helps you out? Secondly, Corrin is their own person, but an incredibly sheltered and naïve one who has no idea how the world works; they literally got out of a fortress in which they had spent their entire life in the beginning of the game. Judging by how things go, Corrin is definitely not a person ready to make any important choices.

You are right, it IS war, and Nohr are the aggressors. Ryouma is facing an enemy commander at a disadvantage, and he takes the opportunity. Again, considering all the shit Corrin does or lets happen whether directly or indirectly against Hoshido in Conquest, Ryouma was obviously in the right for attacking Corrin. This is not a question of a morality that's hard to uphold, but of one guy making the only smart decision available at the time.

Also, I should note that I don't like the black and white war in Fates in the slightest, but given the circumstances, Ryouma does absolutely nothing wrong. Also, it's not like the game pretends everyone from Hoshido is a saint; just look at Saizou and Takumi.

[saisymbolic]

Alright, this'll be my last response to this on this thread. If you want to continue, then please necro a thread discussing Conquest's plot.

[spoiler=Conquest spoilers]First of all, Corrin is an enemy commander with a legendary weapon which Ryouma needs back, so no matter what, a confrontation was necessary; what's the point of the game if your enemy helps you out? Secondly, Corrin is their own person, but an incredibly sheltered and naïve one who has no idea how the world works; they literally got out of a fortress in which they had spent their entire life in the beginning of the game. Judging by how things go, Corrin is definitely not a person ready to make any important choices.

You are right, it IS war, and Nohr are the aggressors. Ryouma is facing an enemy commander at a disadvantage, and he takes the opportunity. Again, considering all the shit Corrin does or lets happen whether directly or indirectly against Hoshido in Conquest, Ryouma was obviously in the right for attacking Corrin. This is not a question of a morality that's hard to uphold, but of one guy making the only smart decision available at the time.

Also, I should note that I don't like the black and white war in Fates in the slightest, but given the circumstances, Ryouma does absolutely nothing wrong. Also, it's not like the game pretends everyone from Hoshido is a saint; just look at Saizou and Takumi.

Not to drag on your point, but

even Takumi and Saizou are given justification within the context of the story. So, while they are somewhat overzealous in their ways, they have their reasoning that paints them as people reacting in an understandable, sympathetic manner. I mean, Takumi is obviously a tormented individual and even Saizou has his moment of honor when you help him out during the Tenchu Bamboo Forest rip-off stage.

Or I'm just misinterpreting what you mean by that last part.

[B.Leu]

I'm not sure which to side with, and now I'll have to fight all of you without killing you because I don't want to choose, both of you guys are right. It would've been god-tier level of stupidity to pass up such an obvious opportunity in war time, but I also feel like Hoshido isn't given the shit talk enough. Especially since Ryouma is supposed to be the physical incarnation of a Samurai. Honor and all of that, plus the Hoshido-sue bonus.
... Or I can just agree with both, that work too.

... Plus there is this whole issue about blackmailing one guy, just so he can go home again.... 'Corrin, go back to your room or else your sister will die' 'NO ! I don't wanna !'.

Saizou is just a dumbass secondary character imo. Just like his bro.

You are wrong. Ryoma is a master strategist and his training in the Wind mountains allows him to understand someone's mental state and attributes.

Knowing that Corrin is a pure-hearted pacifist who doesn't want to kill anybody, Ryoma takes the opportunity to march an army into Nohrian territory. If he wins, great, more power for him. If he loses, he will put the blame on loses on Corrin, making him feel guilty and more susceptible to either a mental breakdown or regret, either way an easier target for Ryoma.

The army wanted land and to strike at Nohr, Corrin was just an excuse Ryoma used to achieve that end and at the same time strike psychologically at the traitorous Corrin.

Not sure which worse, the fact that this actually sounds true, or the fact it's not true. p
Liek if u cry everytim.

[saisymbolic]

I'm not sure which to side with, and now I'll have to fight all of you without killing you because I don't want to choose, both of you guys are right. It would've been god-tier level of stupidity to pass up such an obvious opportunity in war time, but I also feel like Hoshido isn't given the shit talk enough. Especially since Ryouma is supposed to be the physical incarnation of a Samurai. Honor and all of that, plus the Hoshido-sue bonus.

... Or I can just agree with both, that work too.

... Plus there is this whole issue about blackmailing one guy, just so he can go home again.... 'Corrin, go back to your room or else your sister will die' 'NO ! I don't wanna !'.

Saizou is just a dumbass secondary character imo. Just like his bro.

Not sure which worse, the fact that this actually sounds true, or the fact it's not true. p

Liek if u cry everytim.

Don't smack talk dat OG ninja Saizou the V. Kaze is irrelevent, though. Tru, fam.

Is there a code of Bushido in Hoshido? I mean, look at the names! Is Hoshido Bushido? Is it the living embodiment of the code of Bushido?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Not to drag on your point, but

even Takumi and Saizou are given justification within the context of the story. So, while they are somewhat overzealous in their ways, they have their reasoning that paints them as people reacting in an understandable, sympathetic manner. I mean, Takumi is obviously a tormented individual and even Saizou has his moment of honor when you help him out during the Tenchu Bamboo Forest rip-off stage.

Or I'm just misinterpreting what you mean by that last part.

I think this more or less sums it up. It doesn't feel weird with them because they're developed that way and as the exception. It feels weird for Ryoma to do it because of the way the Hoshido is presented in general. And I do say this as someone who agrees that Ryoma's choice was pragmatically sound.

And I dunno, while I agree that Corrin is naive and immature, responding beating her/him up and carrying Corrin back across the border like some kind of property leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Well, one could say that Corrin is still technically a war prisioner in Nohr, even thought he chose Nohr in Conquest. So bringing an army to save a war prisioner who is royalty isn't too strange.

By the blah, since were one the subject, this conversation about Ryoma denying Elise medicine reminds me that a lot people call Takumi evil because he shoots Elise in Cheve.

What's your opinion on Takumi shooting Elise?

Was it fair game?

I think I was too busy being distracted by why everyone was just standing around like a bunch of idiots letting him shoot at them, but giving it some more thought, I think, relative to what was said about Takumi above, it fits his character development. I don't think I'd call him evil in that scene so much as crazed and disturbed. I think it was petty that he'd shoot her just to get her to shut up, but he's gonna be trying to kill her in a moment anyway, so... Also, they were actually in what was clearly going to be a combat zone and Elise was not terminally ill.

I don't know, that whole scene was just really strange.

[Truthblade]

I'm not sure which to side with, and now I'll have to fight all of you without killing you because I don't want to choose, both of you guys are right. It would've been god-tier level of stupidity to pass up such an obvious opportunity in war time, but I also feel like Hoshido isn't given the shit talk enough. Especially since Ryouma is supposed to be the physical incarnation of a Samurai. Honor and all of that, plus the Hoshido-sue bonus.

... Or I can just agree with both, that work too.

... Plus there is this whole issue about blackmailing one guy, just so he can go home again.... 'Corrin, go back to your room or else your sister will die' 'NO ! I don't wanna !'.

Saizou is just a dumbass secondary character imo. Just like his bro.

Not sure which worse, the fact that this actually sounds true, or the fact it's not true. p

Liek if u cry everytim.

And I dunno, while I agree that Corrin is naive and immature, responding beating her/him up and carrying Corrin back across the border like some kind of property leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Taking into account that Ryoma is a very hot-headed, reckless, and stubborn individual (as well as him being "the last one to give up"), from his view, Corrin should have sided with Hoshido. And since Corrin didn't return to the family (s)he was born to, Ryoma shouldn't be expected to take it that well after all those years of longing for him/her and he makes it clear he has no plans to stop trying to get Corrin back to Hoshido.

until you lie about killing Hinoka. Then you lose all rights to live.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Blade_of_Light

[Truthblade]

EDIT: Whoops, double posted.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Blade_of_Light

[B.Leu]

Don't smack talk dat OG ninja Saizou the V. Kaze is irrelevent, though. Tru, fam.

Is there a code of Bushido in Hoshido? I mean, look at the names! Is Hoshido Bushido? Is it the living embodiment of the code of Bushido?

He's not even worthy enough to do a Sigurd cosplay !

I... guess so ? They mention that he embody the traits of Samurai, which are supposed to be the japanese equivalent of knights, and since we're in a pretty much 'idealized' universe of medieval-fantasy, the honor, kindess, Lawful Good trait should be more or less be more present.

Sooo... since he embody Samurai traits... that Bushido must be there ?

... If it was D&D, Ryouma would not only be very incompetent, but he would've already lost his class.

Edited April 7, 2016 by B.Leu

[Sunwoo]

Well, as much as the games and Hoshido itself would like to have us believe that they're completely on the level, they really aren't. Just look back at C12, even. Ryoma basically occupies a hospital and uses it to hold a sick person hostage in order to try to force Corrin to come with him. That's seriously Garon-level villainy right there. And the funny thing? No one even calls him out on it. It's all "We have to push through and save Elise!" and no "Wow, Ryoma, way to be a hypocritical douchebag."

Water Mage already covered this in the most part, but seriously I'm getting really sick of this shit.

1. That was not a hospital.

2. Ryouma didn't hold a sick person hostage. He didn't even know Elise was sick until a certain idiotic lord opened their mouth. He came just to fight Kamui, that's it. He also didn't force Kamui to go with him. He gave Kamui a choice. Ryouma has no obligation to the sick princess of an enemy country. What a shocker, right?

3. So being realistic is Garon-level villainy now? Giving the medicine to Elise would, what, lose the respect of his soldiers because their king is "weak"? Ensure that Elise continues to be a nuisance on the battlefield, both as a healer and a future fighter? It's not like saving Elise's life is going to soften up Garon or Marx so he's all "well you saved my youngest daughter/sister, so we'll stop invading Hoshido or we'll be nice to you when we do conquer you". Nope. The only reason Ryouma has to help Elise is so that the fanbase doesn't grill him for it.

Here's a nice Conquest 12 meta written up by SF user Thor Odinson: http://luminescentblade.tumblr.com/post/137673508044/so-i-was-thinking-about-things-and-i-dont-wanna

And here's a question from me. Why is it that Ryouma gets so much hate over chapter 12, and a lot of people twisting facts to fit their interpretation, and no one cares that Silas and Nohr were attacking a literal hospital in Birthright 7? Nohr bias.

[saisymbolic]

And here's a question from me. Why is it that Ryouma gets so much hate over chapter 12, and a lot of people twisting facts to fit their interpretation, and no one cares that Silas and Nohr were attacking a literal hospital in Birthright 7? Nohr bias.

Because we all know Nohr is scum and would not resort to attacking helpless innocents?

So, it is completely in-character for a Nohr knight to follow orders and attack a Hoshidan hospital?

Because Nohr is the aggressor and is evil?

Maybe?