In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[Sunwoo]

Well no, since the supports with Azura and Kamui's words throughout chapters 16-25 make it clear that they think he isn't doing the right thing and that siding with Nohr was a morally grey decision that was made for the greater good. Lesser of two evils and what not. Besides, the sacrificial lambs Azura and Xander is more blameworthy than Kamui in regards to not supporting the invasion; Azura for not trying at all to make people aware of Valla and Xander being so bullheaded and stupid that it takes his daddy being literally a slime monster for him to rebel.

Correction: it took his daddy being literally a snot monster that attacked its own "children" for him to rebel. Since what made him snap was that "the real father would never lay a hand on his own children".

[Azure Sen]

That was my thing with Corrinmui.

Bruh, when you chose Nohr, you are essentially telling all of Hoshido (siblings included) to kiss your ass. There is no having the sibling cake and eating it too. You make a choice, you face the consequences. Man (or woman) the hell up and accept that. That was the reason you made the choice in the first place.

Like I said in another thread, I like the premise of Conquest (of Fates in general) but the execution of it was terrible.

It's so weird seeing someone with a Nobunaga's Ambition avatar.

A lot of the problems with Corrin's personality on Conquest basically boils down the writers not wanting to offend players by having their self-insert do bad things and having more than a token Corrin-hater on each route to call them out on their actions, except instead of having Corrin not do bad things the instead just decided to convince the player that no all the horrible things Corrin does are totally justified because he's the protagonist and Conquest runs on protagonist centered morality. It's also the reason why, in the end, everyone from Hoshido forgives Corrin on Conquest.

Edited April 29, 2016 by AzureSen

[saisymbolic]

It's so weird seeing someone with a Nobunaga's Ambition avatar.

A lot of the problems with Corrin's personality on Conquest basically boils down the writers not wanting to offend players by having their self-insert do bad things and having more than a token Corrin-hater on each route to call them out on their actions, except instead of having Corrin not do bad things the instead just decided to convince the player that no all the horrible things Corrin does are totally justified because he's the protagonist and Conquest runs on protagonist centered morality. It's also the reason why, in the end, everyone from Hoshido forgives Corrin on Conquest.

I aim to stand out and to unite Japan under the Date banner.

I agree with that. The writers played it safe when the premise (or what I thought was the premise) itself is one that doesn't have an "easy" way out. There is no way that I personally can see where the main character is able to have a complete happy ending, one where the nation they invade or the one they reform is able to forgive or end up better off after Corrinmui's actions in either route (not counting Revelation). It might have also been better had they not tried to paint Corrinmui as a self-insert and instead as their own character, albeit customizable. The story and its characters suffered because they did not want to offend and, ironically, by not wanting to offend, they offended (some), anyways.

[The DanMan]

It's so weird seeing someone with a Nobunaga's Ambition avatar.

A lot of the problems with Corrin's personality on Conquest basically boils down the writers not wanting to offend players by having their self-insert do bad things and having more than a token Corrin-hater on each route to call them out on their actions, except instead of having Corrin not do bad things the instead just decided to convince the player that no all the horrible things Corrin does are totally justified because he's the protagonist and Conquest runs on protagonist centered morality. It's also the reason why, in the end, everyone from Hoshido forgives Corrin on Conquest.

Basically, this. I don't think any personality trait makes Corrin a Stu; it's how the plot and characters treat them that puts them firmly in that territory. The same character in a half-decently written plot with characters who were willing to call them out would be pretty damn interesting.

[Mox]

-The funny thing here is that when Iago is begging for his life, and says that he was just following orders, like Corrin and co, he's absolutely right. Sure, he might have been more happy about following those orders, but in terms of consequences there is functionally no difference between Iago and Corrin. This could have been another interesting moment, as Iago's Not So Different forces Corrin to reassess his actions, but instead the royals are just like "LOL, no, Iago, we're not like you" and then kill him in cold blood (which, by the way, was a big fucking deal that the Hoshidans were killed in cold blood; apparently being evil means you suddenly don't have the right to a fair trial) when I'm saying "Yes you fucking are like him, you hypocrites!" This game. This fucking game.

This part was really interesting to consider, because I feel that you're right about it. I had a bit of a mind blow moment because my take on this part was that Iago was lying through his teeth to save himself and everyone kinda just knew he was lying and executed him. But if he was actually telling the truth then this makes this scene very different... at least to me.

[Sunwoo]

Basically, this. I don't think any personality trait makes Corrin a Stu; it's how the plot and characters treat them that puts them firmly in that territory. The same character in a half-decently written plot with characters who were willing to call them out would be pretty damn interesting.

Pretty much. This is why my real problem with Conquest isn't so much the plot or Kamui (much as I hate them for being a black hole spotlight stealing annoying as fuck Mary Sue). It's how the other characters in the story react to them, how they are dumbed down into coddling Kamui or forgiving things they should not forgive at the detriment of themselves and other characters who are supposed to be important to them, and losing their agency and their "right" to feel a certain way towards Kamui. The story would be amazing if Kamui was allowed to be wrong and in the end they were all "what have I done" as they realized they were a total heel.

EDIT: Hi Mox

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sunwoo

[NekoKnight]

Yeah, that's a thing with Kamui.

"My happiness is a price to pay for saving the world," or "the Hoshidans don't understand my reasonings," or "I hope that my dream can come true someday". Me, me, me, me me. I, I, I, I, I. My gosh, I thought Chrom was a selfish prick for putting the life of one person over the lives of millions and the future, but Kamui is ridiculous. Your happiness isn't the price of saving the world. You seem plenty happy in the end, and it is Hoshido that suffers the most in Conquest. Your reasons are asinine and the result of a dumb ass plot point. If you were honest about your dream, you'd realize that 1) the dream is gone, and 2) saying that you wish that you and the people of the NATION YOU ARE INVADING can laugh and be siblings again is damned selfish and insensitive. Kamui just has the "it's all about me" disease, and selfish ass protagonists who don't learn better are very frustrating to put up with.

EDIT: Oh, blah, I'm surprised you didn't comment on Camilla, Leon, and Elise refusing to fight Garon in his snot form because "that's still our father", and implications that if snot!Garon hadn't tried to hurt his kids then none of them would've stood up against him.

Yeah, I'm really rustled by how self-righteous Kamui sounded about sacrificing another nation so he can deal with his evil Slime-Daddy. Conquering Hoshido is the exact opposite of his dream but he's convinced that invading an innocent country is somehow the path toward peace. They really took protagonist-centered-morality to new heights by having an implied happy ending despite everything you do.

Only because everyone else goes along with it. It's one thing for Kamui to believe that his actions are for the best and that the invasion, but it's another thing entirely for Hinoka, Sakura and Ryoma to actually believe him. And why would he discuss his reasons for the invasion with anyone when sacrifical lamb #1 Azura keeps saying don't mention Gooron until the time is right. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure that at the start of Chapter 26, Xander threatens to kill Kamui and Azura if they're wrong about Garon, even though they just helped conquer Hoshido and have no reason to lie (although I might be remembering correctly).

While I agree that sacrificial lamb #1 Azura and Marx are equally responsible for the plot unfolding as it does, that doesn't alleviate Kamui of his actions. People can tell Kamui to do this or that but he doesn't have to agree with them. After Azura tells him to conquer Hoshido, Kamui should have said "No, that's crazy. Let's think of a better plan." He should know from the start that thousands will suffer and die (possibly his siblings included) as a result of his choice but he has the unbelievably naive idea that everything will work out in the end. It's not the responsibility of anyone in the story besides Kamui himself to tell him not to make stupid and immoral choices.

A lot of Kamui's reactions to things ARE appropriate but the reason he got into those situations in the first place is because of his bad choices. I will call Kamui a bad protagonist for making bad choices. Everyone forgiving him for his bad choices is just icing on the top for why Conquest is a terrible story.

[Mox]

Pretty much. This is why my real problem with Conquest isn't so much the plot or Kamui (much as I hate them for being a black hole spotlight stealing annoying as fuck Mary Sue). It's how the other characters in the story react to them, how they are dumbed down into coddling Kamui or forgiving things they should not forgive at the detriment of themselves and other characters who are supposed to be important to them, and losing their agency and their "right" to feel a certain way towards Kamui. The story would be amazing if Kamui was allowed to be wrong and in the end they were all "what have I done" as they realized they were a total heel.

EDIT: Hi Mox

Hi Sunwooooooooo

I totally agree with you there. I thought a lot of the interactions with Kamui didn't make sense *coughs* Xander *coughs*. I also kinda felt like the 'positioning' of some of the characters was wrong: why did Xander - the crown prince of Nohr - let Kamui take charge of the army? Especially when they had no real experience beforehand. Who thought that this would be a good idea??????

Kamui definitely should have had opportunities to be wrong and make mistakes. It's a human thing that, apparently, our sainty Kamui is above - with everyone else favouring to like their boots ... errr ... feet. I mean, wouldn't a flawed protagonist bring more complexity to the story and allow people to sympathise??? Wouldn't we benefit from better villains???? ...... You already know extensively how I feel about Iago and Ganz ...

[Time the Crestfallen]

While I agree that sacrificial lamb #1 Azura and Marx are equally responsible for the plot unfolding as it does, that doesn't alleviate Kamui of his actions. People can tell Kamui to do this or that but he doesn't have to agree with them. After Azura tells him to conquer Hoshido, Kamui should have said "No, that's crazy. Let's think of a better plan." He should know from the start that thousands will suffer and die (possibly his siblings included) as a result of his choice but he has the unbelievably naive idea that everything will work out in the end. It's not the responsibility of anyone in the story besides Kamui himself to tell him not to make stupid and immoral choices.

A lot of Kamui's reactions to things ARE appropriate but the reason he got into those situations in the first place is because of his bad choices. I will call Kamui a bad protagonist for making bad choices. Everyone forgiving him for his bad choices is just icing on the top for why Conquest is a terrible story.

A better plan such as...? I mean, I have seen people come up with better plans, but many of those require major restructuring to the entire narrative. Within the context of the events given to us (that is to say, obey Garon or die), I personally can't think of a better idea, or rather an idea that actually stands a reasonable chance of actually working out in addition to being morally correct. Not to mention that Kamui from what I can tell knows nothing of how the world works, has no reason not to believe that everything won't work out based on his life experiences and yet has been placed in charge of the army basically because he's the protagonist. Maybe it's because I have a lot of headcanons about Fates (like Kamui's idealism for late-game being deluding himself as a coping mechanism for guilt), but it seems to me that because of the way the game/story is set up, Kamui doesn't really have any other option.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

A better plan such as...? I mean, I have seen people come up with better plans, but many of those require major restructuring to the entire narrative. Within the context of the events given to us (that is to say, obey Garon or die), I personally can't think of a better idea, or rather an idea that actually stands a reasonable chance of actually working out in addition to being morally correct. Not to mention that Kamui from what I can tell knows nothing of how the world works, has no reason not to believe that everything won't work out based on his life experiences and yet has been placed in charge of the army basically because he's the protagonist. Maybe it's because I have a lot of headcanons about Fates (like Kamui's idealism for late-game being deluding himself as a coping mechanism for guilt), but it seems to me that because of the way the game/story is set up, Kamui doesn't really have any other option.

Yes, the story would need to be completely restructured. IS wanted a story about conquest, that conclusion is unavoidable. What was avoidable was the reason being absolutely insane and self-centered. Had they made the conquest sympathetic (such as the oft talked about need for resources), the invasion could be seen as tragic but necessary.

It's been talked to death before but I'll put out a few points of alternative options.

-Talk to your siblings about it. Even if Marx is a bit shaky, Kamui can still broach the subject of Gooron with Leon, Elise and Camilla. He doesn't have a reason to believe they won't at least hear him out.

-Look for allies in Nohr and Hoshido to help dethrone Garon. The guy undoubtedly has plenty of enemies because you help put down two rebellions (and that's just who you were around to see). If Kamui coordinated with Hoshidan forces (such as Ryoma) he could have assisted in an assassination instead of "invasion of innocent nation and THEN an assassination".

The issue is he didn't even consider other options, and his plan is incredibly sketchy (What if Garon decides to not sit on the magic chair? Whoops.) and tantamount to doing nothing. If you really think the story playing out as it did was inevitable, then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he was very culpable for his actions and the other characters just made it worse.

Edited April 29, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

Yes, the story would need to be completely restructured. IS wanted a story about conquest, that conclusion is unavoidable. What was avoidable was the reason being absolutely insane and self-centered. Had they made the conquest sympathetic (such as the oft talked about need for resources), the invasion could be seen as tragic but necessary.

It's been talked to death before but I'll put out a few points of alternative options.

-Talk to your siblings about it. Even if Marx is a bit shaky, Kamui can still broach the subject of Gooron with Leon, Elise and Camilla. He doesn't have a reason to believe they won't at least hear him out.

-Look for allies in Nohr and Hoshido to help dethrone Garon. The guy undoubtedly has plenty of enemies because you help put down two rebellions (and that's just who you were around to see). If Kamui coordinated with Hoshidan forces (such as Ryoma) he could have assisted in an assassination instead of "invasion of innocent nation and THEN an assassination".

The issue is he didn't even consider other options, and his plan is incredibly sketchy (What if Garon decides to not sit on the magic chair? Whoops.) and tantamount to doing nothing. If you really think the story playing out as it did was inevitable, then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he was very culpable for his actions and the other characters just made it worse.

Erm, I'd say that Xander is more than a bit shaky, considering that he more or less threatens you with death if you're wrong in chapter 27. As for the other siblings, Kamui has every reason to believe that they won't trust him on it considering that he's saying Garon is dead and replaced by a slime monster, but doing so without any means of proving it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGOmTYwMiM#t=1m25s

And as for the second option, I think it's pretty commonly agreed that one of the main problems with Fates' narrative as a whole is being heavily bias towards Hoshido. If people are getting all bent out of shape over Corrin regretting siding with Nohr, can you even begin to imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if he worked with Hoshido on the route where he explicitly sides with Nohr? And on that note, why would Hoshido work with him at all at that point?

I get that Kamui isn't a perfect protagonist, but he's much better than people give him credit for, especially considering that many of the problems came about as the result of actions by either the actions of other characters (Azura, Xander and the Hoshidan siblings being force-fed idiot balls comes to mind) and IntSys being such extreme rail-roaders that it feels like Conquest is one step away from ending with 'rock falls, everyone dies'.

[eclipse]

This part was really interesting to consider, because I feel that you're right about it. I had a bit of a mind blow moment because my take on this part was that Iago was lying through his teeth to save himself and everyone kinda just knew he was lying and executed him. But if he was actually telling the truth then this makes this scene very different... at least to me.

I think Iago was telling half of the truth. He did follow Garon's orders to the letter. However, if he decided to disobey orders, he sure as hell wouldn't have allied with Corrin. The debriefing after the Ice Tribe and the Rainbow Sage after-party should've made that clear. So killing off Iago, even if he was just "following orders" was still a good move, because he sure as hell wasn't going to help Corrin.

[Sunwoo]

I keep hearing a lot of things about Hoshido bias. And in a way I agree that there are a lot of aspects that are biased towards Hoshido. HOWEVER … there are definitely things that can arguably be NOHR bias present in the games.

The mere concept of a split path can be argued as Nohr bias. Because the previous games all had enemy nations, and some of those nations were more sympathetic than Nohr (Grado and Kilvas, maybe FE10!Daein and Bern). I sure as hell do not remember playing as any of those factions except for FE10!Daein, and FE10 was not a split faction game the same way Fates is. Whether IS succeeded or failed, they clearly wanted to make Nohr a more sympathetic "evil" faction, to the point where "oh, Nohr isn't bad, they're just ruled by a slime monster!" was their plan of action.

World building. It sucks in Fates. But Nohr gets more world building in BOTH paths. In Hoshido, when you breach Nohr's borders you learn about the underground city of what-was-it-called-again and its extreme poverty and Nohr family politics. You get Nohr world building (or, what we would call world building) in Nohr. In Hoshido, we get less Hoshido-based world building and the Hoshido family tree somehow ends up EVEN MORE convoluted than Nohr's concubines. And unlike Nohr, WE DON'T GET A GOOD EXPLANATION FOR THIS BECAUSE OF SCHROEDINGER'S INCEST THAT'S NOT ALL THAT SCHROEDINGER IN THE DLC.

The only bit of Hoshido-related world building we get in Nohr is that Hoshido is male primogeniture (sons inherit before daughters regardless of age).

And since we're on that note … the Nohr siblings are portrayed more "sympathetically", or at least more realistically on the Hoshido path. At the very least their roles are less forced and Kamui-centric on Birthright. Takumi is the most often fought of the Hoshido siblings, and fan opinion on him is very split (his reasons are understandable vs. HE IS THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME), and the game itself thinks that his justified reasons for disliking Kamui after the route split are wrong. Can't argue with that! Ryouma has chapter 12, and the fanwank over that WILL NOT DIE. Hinoka is an awful sister to anyone not Kamui, why does she exist. Even Camilla got a better deal on Birthright, at least she came to save Elise in chapter 23. I think Sakura is the only Hoshido sibling who got a good deal on Nohr, proving her willingness to shoot you in the face. And even then, what happens to her in Conquest is probably worse than what happened to the surviving siblings in Birthright. Elise and Marx may have died, but at least they had more agency in how they died. Ryouma was stuck between "die and die harder", and Takumi never had agency since the writers decided to fuck him over.

Finally, Conquest has the better map. We can argue about story all we want, but this is a game. Most people play a game primarily for gameplay.

tl;dr Nohr bias exists as much as Hoshido bias, and I'm not talking about the fanbase. You just need to look at where the bias for each path is.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Time the Crestfallen]

I keep hearing a lot of things about Hoshido bias. And in a way I agree that there are a lot of aspects that are biased towards Hoshido. HOWEVER … there are definitely things that can arguably be NOHR bias present in the games.

The mere concept of a split path can be argued as Nohr bias. Because the previous games all had enemy nations, and some of those nations were more sympathetic than Nohr (Grado and Kilvas, maybe FE10!Daein and Bern). I sure as hell do not remember playing as any of those factions except for FE10!Daein, and FE10 was not a split faction game the same way Fates is. Whether IS succeeded or failed, they clearly wanted to make Nohr a more sympathetic "evil" faction, to the point where "oh, Nohr isn't bad, they're just ruled by a slime monster!" was their plan of action.

Perhaps, but have we ever been given a reason to side with the enemy nations before? Sure those nations are perhaps more sympathetic than Nohr, but Corrin actually has personal ties with Nohr and has a reason to side with them, while Ephraim and Eirika have no reason to side with Grado. And on that note, while IntSys perhaps wanted Nohr to seam sympathetic, they failed spectacularly. 'Nohr isn't that bad' except for the fact that I don't remember the need for resources ever being mentioned, Nohrian NPC's are pretty much all evil or at the very least selfish and despite Hoshido being willing to share resources (a can of worms by itself), they don't take the offer.

World building. It sucks in Fates. But Nohr gets more world building in BOTH paths. In Hoshido, when you breach Nohr's borders you learn about the underground city of what-was-it-called-again and its extreme poverty and Nohr family politics. You get Nohr world building (or, what we would call world building) in Nohr. In Hoshido, we get less Hoshido-based world building and the Hoshido family tree somehow ends up EVEN MORE convoluted than Nohr's concubines. And unlike Nohr, WE DON'T GET A GOOD EXPLANATION FOR THIS BECAUSE OF SCHROEDINGER'S INCEST THAT'S NOT ALL THAT SCHROEDINGER IN THE DLC.

The only bit of Hoshido-related world building we get in Nohr is that Hoshido is male primogeniture (sons inherit before daughters regardless of age).

Hoshido doesn't get much development compared to Nohr, but the other Eastern nations get some instead. I could tell you more about Izumo, Mokushu and Kohga than I could about Chevalier and Nestra for example.

On that note, where is the inheritance of Hoshido mentioned? I'd be interested in reading that.

And since we're on that note … the Nohr siblings are portrayed more "sympathetically", or at least more realistically on the Hoshido path. At the very least their roles are less forced and Kamui-centric on Birthright. Takumi is the most often fought of the Hoshido siblings, and fan opinion on him is very split (his reasons are understandable vs. HE IS THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME), and the game itself thinks that his justified reasons for disliking Kamui after the route split are wrong. Can't argue with that! Ryouma has chapter 12, and the fanwank over that WILL NOT DIE. Hinoka is an awful sister to anyone not Kamui, why does she exist. Even Camilla got a better deal on Birthright, at least she came to save Elise in chapter 23. I think Sakura is the only Hoshido sibling who got a good deal on Nohr, proving her willingness to shoot you in the face. And even then, what happens to her in Conquest is probably worse than what happened to the surviving siblings in Birthright. Elise and Marx may have died, but at least they had more agency in how they died. Ryouma was stuck between "die and die harder", and Takumi never had agency since the writers decided to fuck him over.

Takumi's base breaking seems less to do with his role in Nohr to me and more to do with the fact that he's a dick. He's a lovable dick in my opinion and a justified one at that considering his issues, but he's still a dick. Not to mention that his issues being 'justified' or not seems more to do with the game wanting a happy ending than it is him being 'wrong' per-say. Ryoma's actions in Chapter 12 is, like you said, fanwank and not explicitly said to be wrong in story. Hinoka is more like Kamui-bias than Nohr-bias and Sakura is treated very sympathetically as far as I remember.

Finally, Conquest has the better map. We can argue about story all we want, but this is a game. Most people play a game primarily for gameplay.

tl;dr Nohr bias exists as much as Hoshido bias, and I'm not talking about the fanbase. You just need to look at where the bias for each path is.

And Conquest and Birthright offer different types of gameplay for different types of people. Not everyone wants a game to fuck them until they love it.

tl;dr You have good points, but some of them are Kamui-bias rather than Nohr-bias, and others are the result of fanwank.

[NekoKnight]

Erm, I'd say that Xander is more than a bit shaky, considering that he more or less threatens you with death if you're wrong in chapter 27. As for the other siblings, Kamui has every reason to believe that they won't trust him on it considering that he's saying Garon is dead and replaced by a slime monster, but doing so without any means of proving it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGOmTYwMiM#t=1m25s

And as for the second option, I think it's pretty commonly agreed that one of the main problems with Fates' narrative as a whole is being heavily bias towards Hoshido. If people are getting all bent out of shape over Corrin regretting siding with Nohr, can you even begin to imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if he worked with Hoshido on the route where he explicitly sides with Nohr? And on that note, why would Hoshido work with him at all at that point?

I get that Kamui isn't a perfect protagonist, but he's much better than people give him credit for, especially considering that many of the problems came about as the result of actions by either the actions of other characters (Azura, Xander and the Hoshidan siblings being force-fed idiot balls comes to mind) and IntSys being such extreme rail-roaders that it feels like Conquest is one step away from ending with 'rock falls, everyone dies'.

If I were Kamui in chapter 15, the first thing I'd do is discuss with Azura all the possibilities of dealing with Gooron, besides the invasion. First and foremost, I'd tell her to pick up another god damn crystal and show it to the others. If, after a lengthy discussion of their options, they determine that invading Hoshido is their only resort, then I'd go along with it. Kamui learns an important truth about the world but he doesn't make any effort to share this knowledge (and he had the perfect chance to after the Nohrian and Hoshidan siblings are all together in chapter 18). Obviously there is almost nothing he can do by himself (something made apparent by the massacre in Chevalier) so he should be seeking help from others, not trying to keep everything a secret. Marx is a terrible person but I like to think Kamui would have a sympathetic ear from the others. We'll never know because he never asked.

A lot of people wanted the story to be about reform and rebellion, so I don't think enlisting the aid of Hoshido would be poorly received (that would be a pretty cool chapter, actually). Kamui and the Hoshidans have a common goal in wanting to dethrone Garon so it really makes more sense to get them on his side than fight them.

[saisymbolic]

I honestly feel like Corrinmui would have been the type of character to sacrifice themselves to tell their siblings about Valla, just like good ol' Aunt Arete.

Then, they would have been screwed because Corrinmui is apparently the only one who can wield the Yato and it's necessary to defeat Anankos. I think?

[blah the Prussian]

Well, I missed a lot, but essentially I cut the siblings a bit of slack; I think they were just paralyzed with indecision. What I don't like, that I touch on with the whole no human villains rant, is that the game basically outright states that no, the siblings wouldn't fight Garon unless he was a slime monster. Claus Von Stauffenburg didn't need Hitler to be a slime monster, dammit!

Well, I'm more sympathetic to Corrin than most of you; he's making peace the Roman way: "They make a desert and they call it peace."

[Time the Crestfallen]

If I were Kamui in chapter 15, the first thing I'd do is discuss with Azura all the possibilities of dealing with Gooron, besides the invasion. First and foremost, I'd tell her to pick up another god damn crystal and show it to the others. If, after a lengthy discussion of their options, they determine that invading Hoshido is their only resort, then I'd go along with it. Kamui learns an important truth about the world but he doesn't make any effort to share this knowledge (and he had the perfect chance to after the Nohrian and Hoshidan siblings are all together in chapter 18). Obviously there is almost nothing he can do by himself (something made apparent by the massacre in Chevalier) so he should be seeking help from others, not trying to keep everything a secret. Marx is a terrible person but I like to think Kamui would have a sympathetic ear from the others. We'll never know because he never asked.

A lot of people wanted the story to be about reform and rebellion, so I don't think enlisting the aid of Hoshido would be poorly received (that would be a pretty cool chapter, actually). Kamui and the Hoshidans have a common goal in wanting to dethrone Garon so it really makes more sense to get them on his side than fight them.

1: What other crystal? It's bullshit that she even has the one, but it seems pretty clear that she only has the one.

2: What other options? Azura already tried to assassinate Garon and it didn't work since he has guards that can shut that shit down and I doubt that a slime monster will be vulnerable to more mundane methods.

3: So you're saying that he should've attempted to share the knowledge that Garon is a slime monster, even though he has no evidence? At best, he'll get dismissed as insane and at worst executed for treason.

4: The invasion is happening with or without him. Not going along with that is going to fall under 'obey Garon's orders or you'll be executed, lolkek I'm such a good villain' material for Iago and Hans.

5: Enlist aid from Hoshido, the nation that considers him a traitor, who he has fought multiple times already and would likely involve working with Takumi, who at this point in the story probably whacks it to the thought of violently murdering them while Oboro cheers about how manly and amazing he is in the background. And mind you a hefty portion of the internet considers the game to be bias towards Hoshido and won't stop complaining about Ryoma being 'dishonourable' for the way he acts in Chapter 12. It makes sense for Kamui to do that in the story, but it also makes sense for Takumi to dislike Kamui and half the fanbase can't stand him. Working with Hoshido during Conquest is only gonna make that particular problem worse.

Again, I get that Kamui is a flawed protagonist, especially based on the story we're given, but a lot of the hate they get for Conquest is ridiculously exaggerated for what actually happens.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Phillius

[Sunwoo]

Perhaps, but have we ever been given a reason to side with the enemy nations before? Sure those nations are perhaps more sympathetic than Nohr, but Corrin actually has personal ties with Nohr and has a reason to side with them, while Ephraim and Eirika have no reason to side with Grado. And on that note, while IntSys perhaps wanted Nohr to seam sympathetic, they failed spectacularly. 'Nohr isn't that bad' except for the fact that I don't remember the need for resources ever being mentioned, Nohrian NPC's are pretty much all evil or at the very least selfish and despite Hoshido being willing to share resources (a can of worms by itself), they don't take the offer.

I'm sure there's someone who's wanted to side with the enemy faction. Heck, I have friends who've either wanted a more sympathetic Plegia, or outright wanted to side with Gangrel in squashing Emmeryn. It is not unheard of. Also, what a lot of people just do not seem to realize is that without "Hoshido bias" there is literally no in-story reason for Kamui to pick them. Even if they're "blood" (unrelated issue I will not get into here), if their side is just as bad or even worse as the Nohrians, then why the hell would Kamui pick them anyway? In this case, both factions are equally sketchy but one is stranger to you.

Hoshido doesn't get much development compared to Nohr, but the other Eastern nations get some instead. I could tell you more about Izumo, Mokushu and Kohga than I could about Chevalier and Nestra for example.

Chevaleir, Nestra, Izumo, Mokushu, and Kohga are not running the show. While world building for the smaller countries is nice, if you don't have world building on the LARGER COUNTRY THAT WE'RE OBVIOUSLY SUPPOSED TO CARE ABOUT, it feels like an empty gesture.

On that note, where is the inheritance of Hoshido mentioned? I'd be interested in reading that.

Technically, it may be Japanese Conquest epilogue only. Apparently, localization changed Hinoka's line to make it sound like the throne would be hers to pass onto Takumi, while original text implied that she never thought she'd get the throne over her brothers, implying sons inherit first. So basically localization may well have taken out the only "interesting" thing about Hoshido.

Takumi's base breaking seems less to do with his role in Nohr to me and more to do with the fact that he's a dick. He's a lovable dick in my opinion and a justified one at that considering his issues, but he's still a dick. Not to mention that his issues being 'justified' or not seems more to do with the game wanting a happy ending than it is him being 'wrong' per-say. Ryoma's actions in Chapter 12 is, like you said, fanwank and not explicitly said to be wrong in story. Hinoka is more like Kamui-bias than Nohr-bias and Sakura is treated very sympathetically as far as I remember.

Except I feel it DOES count as Nohr bias if you have to twist Hinoka and Takumi's personalities for their vision of the story to work. I'll concede Ryouma, although for all of Kamui's bitching and whining about Ryouma not giving them the medicine sometimes I'm not sure what the game itself thinks of this. Takumi is definitely abrasive, yes, but I would put his getting possessed in the end, what happens in the epilogue (you know what I'm talking about), and his overall portrayal as "Kamui bias that still falls slightly under Nohr bias". Leon, Marx, and Camilla are not required to be possessed for them to work in Conquest. And the game treats them far more sympathetically. Game outright thinks that Takumi is wrong, despite his having a pretty good reason for disliking Kamui. The fact that Takumi, despite coming off as a jerk, can STILL be painted in the wrong even though he's justified in hating Kamui in Nohr just shows how much the game revolves around Kamui that you have to twist his character that far for it to even work. And I do call that Nohr bias because Hoshido doesn't have to do that to the Nohr siblings. Same story with Hinoka. I call it "Kamui bias that still falls under Nohr bias" when we're expected to believe that Hinoka being a dick to the rest of her siblings is "right".

tl;dr You have good points, but some of them are Kamui-bias rather than Nohr-bias, and others are the result of fanwank.

I can't tell if you're just copying me or if you're mocking me, but it feels like the latter. If you're mocking me, I don't appreciate it ;/

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Time the Crestfallen]

I can't tell if you're just copying me or if you're mocking me, but it feels like the latter. If you're mocking me, I don't appreciate it ;/

Neither. I don't normally tl;dr, but I didn't think my overall point was clear enough and I sure as shit wasn't gonna go back and edit all that :D

But again, you have good points, but a lot of the stuff you're classifying as Nohr-bias (barring the lack of Hoshidan world-building) falls under Kamui-bias imo. Is Takumi getting flak because he's paranoid and acting like a dick just generally or is he getting flak for being paranoid and acting like a dick to the player specifically. Sure, you see a mention of shooting Elise (he shot the enemy princess?! Oh, the hu-fucking-manity!) and being a douche to Azura (he can burn for that tho...), but it mostly seems like 'he's a dick to my Avatar, so he sucks'. Besides, Xander has every reason to despise Kamui on Birthright and he's still treated as being in the wrong, so eh.

[Sunwoo]

Except I do see Elise and Aqua still brought up as examples of "why Takumi sucks". Granted, I can't tell if that's in conjunction with his being a dick to Kamui, or if those people are just using Elise and Aqua as an excuse, but it is brought up. And Marx, while he may still be portrayed as wrong in Birthright, still gets a more dignified end. At the very least, I can believe why Marx may have some fondness for Kamui, the kid he knew growing up, and Nohr is technically still the aggressor. In Conquest, Hoshido is the defending country and it gets crushed because Kamui, Aqua, and the Nohr siblings are dicks. Plus, Takumi has less reason than Marx to forgive Kamui by the end of it. And yet, Kamui still manages to wheedle out an apology for Takumi even though the only thing Takumi is guilty of is being a jerk to Kamui, and that's all because he was possessed by a hate monster all along! That's just seriously frustrating AND insulting.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Except I do see Elise and Aqua still brought up as examples of "why Takumi sucks". Granted, I can't tell if that's in conjunction with his being a dick to Kamui, or if those people are just using Elise and Aqua as an excuse, but it is brought up. And Marx, while he may still be portrayed as wrong in Birthright, still gets a more dignified end. At the very least, I can believe why Marx may have some fondness for Kamui, the kid he knew growing up, and Nohr is technically still the aggressor. In Conquest, Hoshido is the defending country and it gets crushed because Kamui, Aqua, and the Nohr siblings are dicks. Plus, Takumi has less reason than Marx to forgive Kamui by the end of it. And yet, Kamui still manages to wheedle out an apology for Takumi even though the only thing Takumi is guilty of is being a jerk to Kamui, and that's all because he was possessed by a hate monster all along! That's just seriously frustrating AND insulting.

Eh, I do see them a fair bit, but 8/10 times it's either 'Takumi sucks because he's a dick to Kamui' or 'I totally ship Takumi with Kamui because I'm a filthy heretic who hasn't heard of Takumi x Oboro'. Oh well, we could argue back and forth about it all day, but my point is that Takumi being treated as wrong has more to do with Kamui-bias than Nohr-bias.

[blah the Prussian]

Hey whoa, I haven't reacted to this yet! Do you folks want my blind reactions or not?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Hey whoa, I haven't reacted to this yet! Do you folks want my blind reactions or not?

Nobody comes to blind react threads for the blind reactions blah. Get with the times! XD

[eclipse]

Hey whoa, I haven't reacted to this yet! Do you folks want my blind reactions or not?

I'm over here, patiently waiting for The End.

And then redo this on Hard, because there's a lot of stuff that Conquest Normal is missing. Gameplay stuff, that is.

Edited April 29, 2016 by eclipse