The Official Ultima Super Battle Cruise Fortress Topic Deluxe!

[TheVinceKnight]

Static ability is the best.

Light ball for that extra boost! (If you ever get it)*

Er... PIKACHUUUU

4/10 +1 bias, 5/10

Edited June 23, 2012 by TheVinceKnight

[Ema Skye]

Pretty much the same as Lotad, only with an even crappier start. Leaf Stone does come earlier though. 100/90/60 offenses are nice, but its movepool is so narrow (Giga Drain from TM, Faint Attack from Nuzleaf, Shadow Ball, Dig and... that's pretty much everything).

4.5/10.

[frat_tastic]

5.5/10

Questionable start, solid finish.

[Strawman]

Decent enough because electric. Decent stats. But -1 for bring so popular and mascot-ish.

3/10

[Espinosa]

FR/LG Bulbasaur got a score over 8? You've got to be kidding.

Pikachu gets an 8 from me. Difficult to find and catch, and fragile, but learns Thunderbolt and has a decent physical coverage (all can be bought cheap) as Raichu for those generic Rocket battles where running out of PP is a concern. Bases are very good as Raichu, and having an electric-type STAB helps against so many Pokemon it's not funny. He's a bad Pokemon to use against Misty since Starmie is faster, unless you can 2HKO (needs a bit of favouritism on the bridge) and have 2 Pokemon to sacrifice by switching out (one to take a hit and another one to use a Super Potion on Pikachu).

8/10

[BBM]

So you're saying Pikachu > Bulbasaur?

[Espinosa]

So you're saying Pikachu > Bulbasaur?

Most definitely.

I'd give Bulbasaur a 6 probably. Razor Leaf is no longer an auto-crit, you need grinding to learn Vine Whip for Brock, and your learnset is noticeably poorer than that of the other two starters. Venusaur is also frankly quite bad in the E4 (Razor Leaf is insufficient to OHKO and being countered with ice-type moves hurts), and its usefulness starts diminishing as soon as it evolves (as its base stats gradually stop being remarkable).

It's true that it disposes of Hikers easily, but so do a lot of other Pokemon. Low Kick Mankey for example (iirc an OHKO against Brock's Onix).

That reminds me, why did we skip Mankey?

[Shadow Mir]

That reminds me, why did we skip Mankey?

The trend seems to be going by Pokedex number.

[CrashGordon94]

MY FAVORITE POKEMON EVER!

Anyway, it ends pretty well even if it doesn't start there, but even at the start you can give it Bullet Seed so 6/10 + 1 bias = 7/10

Actually, change my vote to Sharpy's, but with a +1 bias for 9.5

Edited June 23, 2012 by CrashGordon94

[MacLovin]

-1 Bias, because **** Pikachu's anime performance.

7.5/10

Solid.

[MacLovin]

Well, it's decent overall.

Decent special/physical movepool.

High HP as Shiftry.

Tengus are cool.

Well, assuming that we feed it bullet seed, and have it take care of the random Hikers with Geodudes in the first gym, and the Hikers outside Whismur Cave.

It's pretty easy to raise, and isn't that bad.

LEaf stone comes before Water stone, and Nuzleaf does get Secret/nature power with decent att/sp att.

And, Faint Attack comes early for stab, and Emerald has the Explosion tutor.

Not a bad mon, and isn't bad.

8.5/10

Solid Performance, with a few resources, only bad part is slow start.

[CrashGordon94]

Changed my vote, ZM.

[FrostyFireMage]

8/10. Seedot isn't that hard to train if you teach it Bullet Seed, and when it evolves, it becomes a fast Pokemon with strong offences.

[Shadow Mir]

MY FAVORITE POKEMON EVER!

Anyway, it ends pretty well even if it doesn't start there, but even at the start you can give it Bullet Seed so 6/10 + 1 bias = 7/10

Actually, change my vote to Sharpy's, but with a +1 bias for 9.5

Well, it's decent overall.

Decent special/physical movepool.

High HP as Shiftry.

Tengus are cool.

Well, assuming that we feed it bullet seed, and have it take care of the random Hikers with Geodudes in the first gym, and the Hikers outside Whismur Cave.

It's pretty easy to raise, and isn't that bad.

LEaf stone comes before Water stone, and Nuzleaf does get Secret/nature power with decent att/sp att.

And, Faint Attack comes early for stab, and Emerald has the Explosion tutor.

Not a bad mon, and isn't bad.

8.5/10

Solid Performance, with a few resources, only bad part is slow start.

8/10. Seedot isn't that hard to train if you teach it Bullet Seed, and when it evolves, it becomes a fast Pokemon with strong offences.

Personally, Sharpy's vote seems OK, but I'd say that the other two votes aren't well thought out at all. Because even if you give Seedot Bullet Seed, in the end, Bullet Seed's only got 45 power on average after STAB. Though to be fair, with Secret power and 70 base atk, Nuzleaf's not ineffective for as long as Lombre is. Also, I'll be completely honest - I haven't even used Seedot before (don't have Ruby).

[MacLovin]

Not to mention, that in Emerald, Seedot is availible through an In-Game trade.

[Shadow Mir]

Not to mention, that in Emerald, Seedot is availible through an In-Game trade.

1. Trading a Ralts (which is very rare) for a Seedot practically reeks of "not worth it" to me, and I don't like in-game trades that require you to offer up a rare Pokemon for trade. And knowing that Ralts eventually becomes one of my favorite Pokemon does not help at all.

2. We're supposed to be rating by the standards of the version it's most prominent in (in this case, Ruby); didn't you read the rules?

By the way, Faint Attack comes at level 31; hardly what I'd call "early".

Edited June 23, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Espinosa]

Frankly speaking, pretty bad until you evolve it with that Leaf Stone, and even then it's not spectacular. Its typing makes it decent enough to face the E4 - Brick Break for Sydney and Shadow Ball for Phoebe; however, both TMs are contested by your other Pokemon, many of whom put them to better use (such as being faster, having STAB for fighting-type moves and/or having better typing). Its best two STAB attacks - Giga Drain and Faint Attack - only have 60 BP, and the former runs out of PP too quickly. Setup capacity with Growth deserves to be mentioned. Shiftry might seem like a good Pokemon for Liza and Tate, but it doesn't have strong enough moves to OHKO, and Solrock threatens it with Flamethrower (in both RS and E).

4.5, including 0.5 for levelling fast in Emerald (I think it's a very reasonable idea to catch a Ralts just to trade it for a Seedot if you want to be using Seedot in Emerald).

[Ema Skye]

It's either this dude, or your version exclusive weed (Oddish or Bellsprout) for Misty. That fight is pretty much Pikachu's shining glory. After that, it's nice to have around but it isn't going to benefit you until Lorelei. It's movepool is nice. Dig and Brick Break can be purchased in Celedon, so you can buy as many as you want, and Raichu learns Thunderbolt from the move relearner which can save you the TM. Raichu isn't half bad.

7.5-1 bias = 6.5/10

[Raven]

It's either this dude, or your version exclusive weed (Oddish or Bellsprout) for Misty. That fight is pretty much Pikachu's shining glory. After that, it's nice to have around but it isn't going to benefit you until Lorelei. It's movepool is nice. Dig and Brick Break can be purchased in Celedon, so you can buy as many as you want, and Raichu learns Thunderbolt from the move relearner which can save you the TM. Raichu isn't half bad.

7.5-1 bias = 6.5/10

Pikachu itself also learns Thunderbolt at Lv26, if you're a little patient.

I'm giving the little runt 70%. I like him, but he's also very useful with his powerful electric attacks and good evolution.

[Venusaur]

Most definitely.

I'd give Bulbasaur a 6 probably. Razor Leaf is no longer an auto-crit, you need grinding to learn Vine Whip for Brock, and your learnset is noticeably poorer than that of the other two starters. Venusaur is also frankly quite bad in the E4 (Razor Leaf is insufficient to OHKO and being countered with ice-type moves hurts), and its usefulness starts diminishing as soon as it evolves (as its base stats gradually stop being remarkable).

It's true that it disposes of Hikers easily, but so do a lot of other Pokemon. Low Kick Mankey for example (iirc an OHKO against Brock's Onix).

That reminds me, why did we skip Mankey?

This is actually false, to get to level 10, Bulbasaur needs to gain a whole 425 experience, and that doesn't even include the first rival battle. That's not very hard to get at all, keep your team down to two and defeat some of the wilds on the way. There's a whole 4 trainers in the Forest, too, some with Metapod/Kakuna, the EXP pinatas. Sure, it's not Squirtle where you can skip nearly everything an defeat Brock at Lv. 7, but it doesn't require you to grind at all. And if that requires you to grind, poor Caterpie/Weedle, they take a massive 875 experience to be useful.

If only it had better performance in the late-game

[BBM]

Most definitely.

I'd give Bulbasaur a 6 probably. Razor Leaf is no longer an auto-crit, you need grinding to learn Vine Whip for Brock, and your learnset is noticeably poorer than that of the other two starters. Venusaur is also frankly quite bad in the E4 (Razor Leaf is insufficient to OHKO and being countered with ice-type moves hurts), and its usefulness starts diminishing as soon as it evolves (as its base stats gradually stop being remarkable).

It's true that it disposes of Hikers easily, but so do a lot of other Pokemon. Low Kick Mankey for example (iirc an OHKO against Brock's Onix).

That reminds me, why did we skip Mankey?

Wait, so what does Pikachu dispose of easily? Fishermen? Bulbasaur does that easily too, even with only Razor leaf. Bulbasaur is your best pokemon against Brock and Misty (and if you tell me level 10 for Brock is grinding, I will shoot you). He's still better than Pikachu against Surge and they're about the same against Erika, but Bulbasaur resists and can also lay down more status moves than Pikachu. I guess Pikachu wins Koga, Sabrina, and Blaine by virtue of not getting hit for SE damage/being able to hit neutrally, but he isn't amazing against them by any means, and then he loses at Giovanni. A win at Lorelei for Pikachu, but Bulbasaur takes the cake against Bruno. Pikachu wins against Agatha but they're the same against Lance. And although we should be assuming raising a pokemon if we're rating it, and this falls under the Not X rule, Raichu is outclassed by Zapdos as soon as you get it, while Venusaur is your best grass type should you ever need one (although I you probably don't).

[Venusaur]

2. We're supposed to be rating by the standards of the version it's most prominent in (in this case, Ruby); didn't you read the rules?

This is actually debatable, it's slightly easier to obtain in Ruby, but in Emerald it has that sweet 1.5x EXP, and it get to fight Team Aqua. Sure, Relaxed nature is kinda bad and it's IVs are all around awful (5 is its highest), but hey.

[Espinosa]

Are you assuming we are training one-two Pokemon for the entire playthrough and overlevelling them? Because there's no way either Pikachu or Bulbasaur (and their evolutions) are facing Lt Surge, Sabrina or Bruno, and Venusaur's usefulness against Bruno is very dubious. Sure, it OHKOs Onix, but so does anything on your team with Surf or even Water Pulse; heck, even Magical Leaf Mr Mime works. You could take it out with a neutral special attack (like Psychic) too, it's not like the thing can take any special hits it doesn't resist.

Against the E4, Raichu works wonders against by virtue of STAB Thunderbolt alone:

- all of Lorelei's Pokemon sans Jynx

- Golbat, but anybody can OHKO Golbat really

- Lance's Gyarados and Aerodactyl (doesn't run Earthquake)

- Rival's Pidgeot and either Gyarados again or Blastoise

Venusaur doesn't like facing Lorelei in spite of the offensive type advantage, resists Bruno but doesn't really have any good moves to hurt him with and doesn't have offer anything unique in the last two battles. Really, you've basically made a mistake if you're still training a Venusaur at this point (if Raticate gets a 3.2 average for losing steam by midgame, then Venusaur does essentially the same around the same time).

Bulbasaur's other problem is that its sole STAB only has 10 PP (pretty ridiculous for such a weak move), so it quickly runs out of its uses in hiker-heavy dungeons, making water-types perform a lot better.

As for training to lv. 10 for Brock, sure, it's not that hard, but that's assuming you're not training anything else, and Bulbasaur is the one starter who's far from self-sufficient (Pidgeys and Spearows with super-effective attacks all over earlygame). Choosing him as your starter implies grindfest if not for one purpose than for another.

For battling swimmers and fishermen, I'd argue Raichu is still better against Tentacools and Tentacruels, but you shouldn't be having trouble with them either way.

[Venusaur]

Are you assuming we are training one-two Pokemon for the entire playthrough and overlevelling them?

Nah, I was only assuming that up until Brock. I mean, unless you have the pressing need to use both, say, Pikachu and Mankey alongside your starter (and if you do, then don't take Bulbasaur), one along with your starter is plenty. It's definitely doable to use something else AND Bulbasaur and have Bulba at Lv. 10 before Brock.

About Vine Whip... the only dungeon it's around for is Mt. Moon, as Ivysaur learns Razor Leaf at Lv. 22. It will easily get that before Surge, which it's kinda effective against, what with all the seeding, powdering and razor leafing that's going on. Misty is obviously a given. There is a grand total of one Hiker there. Now, it does have PP problems (it's STAB is its most effective attack, after all), but there's an Ether in Mt. Moon itself (hidden in a side room with a Rocket), so why not use it? We probably won't need every one for the Elite Four.

You also forget Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, which allows it to be somewhat effective on anything that can't hurt it easily and allowing free switchins for Pokemon who are effective, but can't take an attack from what they want to switch in on. It's not completely screwed against Koga, especially when it lands a Leech Seed on that Muk that LOVES to use Minimize. And even against Sabrina, and to a lesser extent Blaine, it still has the special bulk (80/100 is not bad at all) to take a Psybeam and powder/seed back, though it still doesn't perform very good there.

I will agree it's mediocre against the E4 , but remember that Agatha's first Gengar loves to Double Team (Arbok, Haunter and the other Gengar can be seeded/powdered), and that Venusaur resists Fighting (Hello, Hitmonchan and Machamp, how do you do? With Growth over Frenzy Plant, this can turn into a sweep very easily.). Lance... is not good, but the Gyarados and Dragonair are seeded/powdered pretty easy. The Rival is the same way, though it rofls at Rhydon and can seed/powder his Gyarados. Oh, and it can be effective against Lorelei's Cloyster, which lacks an ice move. Give it Frenzy Plant and it can leave a serious dent in Dewgong/Lapras/Slowbro, though it WILL faint afterwards.

[ZemZem]

I'm counting all votes, since I find them countable.

Tallying.