More Unpopular Fire Emblem Opinions

[General Banzai]

Would it be an unpopular opinion that I really don't get the amount of criticism the story of 7 gets? Its a competent escalation of events from fighting bandits to corrupt nobles, an assassin guild all the way to the evil sorcerer pulling the strings. That and the smaller, more personal scale does make it stand out among the other stories.

The world building is definitely up to snuff thanks to the focus on only three countries. As a result all three are reasonably fleshed out.

You gotta read my QUINTESSENCE? DON'T UNDERSTAND thread

I claim credit for singlehandedly changing people's views on FE7's story, yes that was me I did it

[Locke087]

You gotta read my QUINTESSENCE? DON'T UNDERSTAND thread

I claim credit for singlehandedly changing people's views on FE7's story, yes that was me I did it

Link? The post is not in your post history. Anyways I've already read thread similar and it was the weakest arguments I've ever seen (it relied mostly on how the game has video game logic like every video game).... Anyways if I ever get around finishing my essay mabye I'll convince you the other way around. :)

Anyways I'd appreciate it if you link it for me, if it's actually good it will help me with my essay. Not that it will change my opinion considering I've studied the game from top to bottom, so there's literally nothing you could point out to me that I don't already know. It will just help me understand where other people are coming from.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Locke087

[Tryhard]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27311

it's old and it's why it doesn't show in history

[Jave]

You know I had this nice little write up for you, but my browser crashed (really have to start typing in notes more I can't tell you how many times this has happens to me)... so I'm giving you the super tldr version of this post.

First Awakening resurrected every single plot important character though time travel bullcrap. So sorry if I find a singular resurrection in a plot where resurrection is well-established as possible, as several magnitudes less bad than that. Oh and not one playable character stays dead in Fates either they all "retire" even Scarlet. It's not like FE 7 does not already high body count, only one person comes fully back to life, and unless you do the incredibly cruel thing and marry Ninian to Eliwood ,she and Nils will go back though Dragon gate and never be seen again anyways.

I never said fire emblem 4 was the pinnacle of writing I said it was on par the stories mentioned. Also I love Gen 2, but it should be noted that all fire emblems have absolutely horrible endings. IS has no idea how to end stories, so I have a hard time faulting Gen 2 for that. Though I will admit that it would be flippin incredible if fire emblem 4 just ended at Gen 1, I would respect it just for the balls of ending like that.

I'm talking about the story-scripted deaths in Fates, not the characters that die and "retire", which has been a thing since... FE4 I think.

The time-travelling in Awakening is not to revive characters, it's to PREVENT deaths from happening and to create a better future. It's generally implied that the bad future still exists as an alternate timeline, and the kids from the future don't stick around in the "fixed" timeline.

And sorry, but I just can't like Ninian's revival in FE7. I feel it's so anticlimatic that it pretty much ruined the game for me.

[Locke087]

I'm talking about the story-scripted deaths in Fates, not the characters that die and "retire", which has been a thing since... FE4 I think.

The time-travelling in Awakening is not to revive characters, it's to PREVENT deaths from happening and to create a better future. It's generally implied that the bad future still exists as an alternate timeline, and the kids from the future don't stick around in the "fixed" timeline.

And sorry, but I just can't like Ninian's revival in FE7. I feel it's so anticlimatic that it pretty much ruined the game for me.

1. I know that other games have some units that "retire" but Fate's entire cast "retires" in the epilogue.

2. Still stupid all it does is create plot holes and take away all stakes. But if someone dies don't worry about we can just get another copy of them in a different timeline. Whereas in FE 7 it is very clear the Reviving people is very hard to do. That currently only one people can do it and he only had the power to do it once, so the stakes are still clearly in place.

3. That perfectly fine, It is definitely the worst part of the game (as all fire emblem endings suck). I just think the series has far done worse than a single revival.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27311

it's old and it's why it doesn't show in history

Thank you for linking that...

Okay so it is that essay I already read... It is better then I gave it credit and you have some good point on ultimately unimportant things. But some of your criticism apply to every Video Game ever made, like why doesn't Nergal send his most powerful generals to get Nils and Ninian, which the answer to is because it is a Video Game. Anyway I have more thoughts on it but I don't want draw this tread any more off topic, so I will end here.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Locke087

[MCProductions]

Would it be an unpopular opinion that I really don't get the amount of criticism the story of 7 gets? Its a competent escalation of events from fighting bandits to corrupt nobles, an assassin guild all the way to the evil sorcerer pulling the strings. That and the smaller, more personal scale does make it stand out among the other stories.

The world building is definitely up to snuff thanks to the focus on only three countries. As a result all three are reasonably fleshed out.

I agree with this for the most part, but there is one tiny detail of FE7's plot I just can't like

And sorry, but I just can't like Ninian's revival in FE7. I feel it's so anticlimatic that it pretty much ruined the game for me.

And it's exactly this, I get that the sole reason she was revived was so if Eliwwod had an A support with her, Roy could still exist, and you know, I could accept that, so long as it ONLY happens if Eliwood had that A support. I never pair Eliwood with Ninian, so her revival always felt ultimately pointless to me, especially considering Nils could've done what Ninian did just as easily without the bullshit plot revival.

[General Banzai]

But some of your criticism apply to every Video Game ever made, like why doesn't Nergal send his most powerful generals to get Nils and Ninian, which the answer to is because it is a Video Game.

In Chapter 3 of Sacred Stones, Vigarde assigns Glen and Valter to capture Eirika and Ephraim.

[Etrurian emperor]

In Chapter 3 of Sacred Stones, Vigarde assigns Glen and Valter to capture Eirika and Ephraim.

In Por Ashnard also sends out Petrine to hunt Elincia who is a pretty high up the Daien ladder.

But Nergal doesn't really have ''generals''. He and his morphs seem a pretty small operation and the Fang aren't fully his. He does have powerful servants though and he actually does send them after the pair. Ephidel personally captures Ninian at one point and Ursula is overseeing the hunt on them . Nergal himself also shows up to do the job.

Big guns aren't exactly needed though because Ninian and Nils are children without any way to defend themselves. Any random goon would be enough and that would have been the case if Eliwood hadn't shown up. Them being captured pretty soon after leaving Lyn's party would indicate that it really isn't to hard to kidnap them.

And thanks for the Link. I believe I read parts of it some time ago. Its a loooooong post so I'l reserve final judgement but from the things I glanced over I do get the impression you're a bit overly harsh like looking for something behind Ephidel clearly just telling Laus what he wants to hear.

Also some things seem up for interpretation. I always thought Hector just punched the guard out cold rather then killing him.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[Locke087]

In Chapter 3 of Sacred Stones, Vigarde assigns Glen and Valter to capture Eirika and Ephraim.

First off Glen is not very powerful.

Second Valter should have killed Seth.

Third would you really prefer that Lyn somehow beat Lloyd or Linus. Or that we are given a powerful Jagen for the already easy Lyn Mode.

Fourth Nergal has no reason to believe that anyone other then him is after Nils and Ninian. The army he sent would be more then enough to handle the average person.

Fifth the equivalent of what you talking about is having Riev Rewarp kill Eirka during the night. That is what it would be like to send Jaffar after Hector or Nils or Ninian. Video games are rarely logical.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Locke087

[Rapier]

- I really can't bring myself to like FE8. The only things that I liked on it were the class branches, some of its tunes (which were really good) and gameplay (which wasn't anything special, but enjoyable). Otherwise, the ridiculously easy difficulty, boring characters (with few exceptions) and mediocre maps disincentive me to continue playing. With that said...

- I don't like Ephraim. I don't buy the tactical genius portray that the writers try to force me into accepting. He actually does many stupid things (invading a fort while undermanned and being lucky enough that this is not Game of Thrones is one) and never quite shows what the narrative has been telling me about him. I prefer Eirika because she is the exact opposite. She starts as a weak, gullible person, which is enforced by the own game's narrative, and becomes better with plot proggression. By the end of the game, she is still naive, but we can see that her campaign did develop her character, and it is satisfying.

- I don't think FE10's story was bad. Convoluted, yes, but not bad. And the characters' actions made sense within [the convoluted] context, which says more than games like Awakening and Fates, where characters need to hold the stupid ball and compensate for story mistakes, harming the plot.

- I don't think Micaiah is a Mary Sue. It is understandable why Daein worships her, given the background and what she did.

- Marth is a generic, boring Lord.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Rapier

[kantoorfarina]

I really don't like Lyn. She's not a very good unit and she's shoehorned in to the story past Chapter 10 despite adding literally nothing to the plot.

Sakura and Elise are two of, if not my two least favorite characters in the series. At least Camilla, despite her outfit and Corrin worshiping, has some good supports and is one of the more well-written characters in Fates when she's not worshiping Corrin, but literally the only personality Sakura/Elise have past Corrin worship is the two default imouto personalities. They have literally no depth.

Sigrun is the most attractive character in the series.

[spoiler=tldr version: I like Micaiah.]Micaiah has a hundred times more depth than almost every other lord in the series and most people who call her a "mary sue" are probably Ike fangirls that hate her because she stole the spotlight from their husbando in FE10. She actually has reasons for being liked by most of Daein such as fighting the Begnion occupation and defending poor towns from bandits, but apparently according to most people those are completely invalid reasons and a war hero being liked by their people is completely unrealistic. She faces a lot more moral struggles than other lords (most of whom have literally no moral objection to what they're doing) and is forced to do terrible things like killing dozens of enemy soldiers by pouring hot oil on them and killing Laguz soldiers that're fighting to end the greed and corruption of the Begnion senate. Granted, the plot device that forces her to do all of that is stupid, but I wouldn't blame that on her character.

Edited June 5, 2016 by kantoorfarina

[Water Mage]

I really don't like Lyn. She's not a very good unit and she's shoehorned in to the story past Chapter 10 despite adding literally nothing to the plot.

Sakura and Elise are two of, if not my two least favorite characters in the series. At least Camilla, despite her outfit and Corrin worshiping, has some good supports and is one of the more well-written characters in Fates when she's not worshiping Corrin, but literally the only personality Sakura/Elise have past Corrin worship is the two default imouto personalities. They have literally no depth.

Sakura worships Corrin? When? In which supports Sakura worships Corrin? The only support that she mention Corrin is the one with Silas, and even then, they are talking about Corrin's memory loss.

She's the female Royal who praises Corrin the least.

And she's even willing to fight against him

Edited June 5, 2016 by Water Mage

[Anacybele]

most people who call her a "mary sue" are probably Ike fangirls that hate her because she stole the spotlight from their husbando in FE10.

Excuse me, but I kind of take offense to this as an Ike fangirl. I don't hate Micaiah because she "stole" anything from Ike, nor do I consider Ike a "husbando." In fact, I was always quite satisfied with the amount of attention Ike got in RD. And I don't even like the term husbando because I think it's dumb. And even if I did, Frederick and Silas would be the ones I call that since my Avatars married them in Awakening and Fates (and because I ship Ike with Elincia anyway).

I hate Micaiah because I felt she was poorly written and had too many Sueish traits for my liking. I'm not calling her a full Mary Sue, just a character with too many Sue traits. That is all. Please do not lump me with people that have stupid reasons like what you just said.

[kantoorfarina]

Sakura worships Corrin? When? In which supports Sakura worships Corrin? The only support that she mention Corrin is the one with Silas, and even then, they are talking about Corrin's memory loss.

She's the female Royal who praises Corrin the least.

And she's even willing to fight against him

Maybe worship isn't really the right word for her, and her praise is definitely to a lesser extent than the rest of the female royals, but I think it's really unrealistic how she loves and cares about Corrin so much and starts crying when he chooses Nohr when he's really just someone from Nohr that she met half an hour ago that's apparently her brother. I understand that Sakura is a nice person, even to strangers so her being nice to him is completely realistic, but I feel like it's slightly unrealistic how she already loves him as much as she does. Although you do have a point, and I was mostly talking about Elise when I said that.

Also, sorry about derailing this topic with yet another argument about FE14's writing.

Edited June 5, 2016 by kantoorfarina

[blah the Prussian]

I really don't like Lyn. She's not a very good unit and she's shoehorned in to the story past Chapter 10 despite adding literally nothing to the plot.

Sakura and Elise are two of, if not my two least favorite characters in the series. At least Camilla, despite her outfit and Corrin worshiping, has some good supports and is one of the more well-written characters in Fates when she's not worshiping Corrin, but literally the only personality Sakura/Elise have past Corrin worship is the two default imouto personalities. They have literally no depth.

Sigrun is the most attractive character in the series.

[spoiler=tldr version: I like Micaiah.]Micaiah has a hundred times more depth than almost every other lord in the series and most people who call her a "mary sue" are probably Ike fangirls that hate her because she stole the spotlight from their husbando in FE10. She actually has reasons for being liked by most of Daein such as fighting the Begnion occupation and defending poor towns from bandits, but apparently according to most people those are completely invalid reasons and a war hero being liked by their people is completely unrealistic. She faces a lot more moral struggles than other lords (most of whom have literally no moral objection to what they're doing) and is forced to do terrible things like killing dozens of enemy soldiers by pouring hot oil on them and killing Laguz soldiers that're fighting to end the greed and corruption of the Begnion senate. Granted, the plot device that forces her to do all of that is stupid, but I wouldn't blame that on her character.

Well, I mean, Micaiah is fighting for a racist regime allied to another racist regime. She'd damn well better have a moral objection to what she's doing. I don't see why any other Lord should have a moral objection. Let's break it down:

Marth: fighting against four evil aggressor states, one of which is explicitly racist towards humans.

Alm and Celica: fighting against an evil Empire/death cult.

Marth again: fighting against an evil batshit insane Emperor and motherfucking Gharnef.

Sigurd: fighting against corrupt nobles who have his country in their grasp and want to kill him for being in their way.

Seliph: Mother. Fucking. Child. Hunts.

Leif: see above.

Roy: fighting against an expansionist kingdom whose king wants to kill literally everyone because his dad was a dick.

Eliwood, Hector, Lyn: fighting against professional killers and an evil sorcerer who wants to sacrifice his own children.

Erika and Ephraim: It's the Demon King, did you expect moral ambiguity? Although Lyon does provide that and they do occasionally have second thoughts.

Ike: Fighting against a brutal dictatorship that aims to rule the continent, and whose King is basically FE's Hitler.

Micaiah: fighting against people who want to restore the legitimate monarch to her throne which has been usurped by a racist senate who whipes out an entire race except for three.

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong...

[Sunwoo]

I think Sakura is easily a lot better than her older sister, Hinoka, who really gets hit with the "worship Kamui" stick, to the point where it feels like she doesn't give a fuck if her other siblings (especially the younger two) die. I wish I was kidding, but just as an older sister I've reached the point where I will never have any respect for Hinoka, ever.

Excluding Hinoka, though, I vastly prefer the Hoshidan royals over the Nohrian royals and don't think that the Hoshidans are boring at all. They're just subtle, kind of like Japanese/Eastern culture as a whole, and most people can't be arsed to see through the subtlety for the depth. (I don't like either Camilla or Hinoka, though. It seems like all big sisters in FE are just doomed to be eh.)

Edited June 5, 2016 by Sunwoo

[kantoorfarina]

Well, I mean, Micaiah is fighting for a racist regime allied to another racist regime. She'd damn well better have a moral objection to what she's doing. I don't see why any other Lord should have a moral objection. Let's break it down:

Marth: fighting against four evil aggressor states, one of which is explicitly racist towards humans.

Alm and Celica: fighting against an evil Empire/death cult.

Marth again: fighting against an evil batshit insane Emperor and motherfucking Gharnef.

Sigurd: fighting against corrupt nobles who have his country in their grasp and want to kill him for being in their way.

Seliph: Mother. Fucking. Child. Hunts.

Leif: see above.

Roy: fighting against an expansionist kingdom whose king wants to kill literally everyone because his dad was a dick.

Eliwood, Hector, Lyn: fighting against professional killers and an evil sorcerer who wants to sacrifice his own children.

Erika and Ephraim: It's the Demon King, did you expect moral ambiguity? Although Lyon does provide that and they do occasionally have second thoughts.

Ike: Fighting against a brutal dictatorship that aims to rule the continent, and whose King is basically FE's Hitler.

Micaiah: fighting against people who want to restore the legitimate monarch to her throne which has been usurped by a racist senate who whipes out an entire race except for three.

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong...

I didn't really mean that every other Lord should have a moral objection, or that they're bad characters because they don't. I just think that characters that do have moral objections and doubts are more interesting than ones that are undeniably the heroes of the story.

[blah the Prussian]

I didn't really mean that every other Lord should have a moral objection, or that they're bad characters because they don't. I just think that characters that do have moral objections and doubts are more interesting than ones that are undeniably the heroes of the story.

I somewhat agree, but not when they're outright the villains, which Micaiah and Daein unquestionably are in Pert 3. They can still have interesting character arcs in a black and white setting, like, for example, Marth in Shadow Dragon, who must learn to accept his responsibilities as King of Altea even at the cost of his personal happiness. That is quite an interesting character arc, and it's all internal. Elincia's character arc in Part 2 is similar, and it is again entirely black and white. Characters can have doubts that aren't simply moral.

[Rapier]

How is Micaiah a villain in part 3? She's an unwitting pawn at worst. She recognizes that what she is doing is wrong and embrances her fate for the people of Daein (who aren't all xenophobes), facing all the odds to keep the Blood Pact on check even if it that means almost reaching out to the moral event horizon. She's clearly under coercion, doing stuff against her will.

Compare her to Xander, who is a moral relativist who pretends to be a hero while not objecting to the unjustified atrocities of Nohr.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Rapier

[kantoorfarina]

I somewhat agree, but not when they're outright the villains, which Micaiah and Daein unquestionably are in Pert 3. They can still have interesting character arcs in a black and white setting, like, for example, Marth in Shadow Dragon, who must learn to accept his responsibilities as King of Altea even at the cost of his personal happiness. That is quite an interesting character arc, and it's all internal. Elincia's character arc in Part 2 is similar, and it is again entirely black and white. Characters can have doubts that aren't simply moral.

I'm certainly not trying to call Daein itself morally gray. Daein and Begnion are the bad guys in Part 3, no doubt, but I find it interesting how Micaiah is fighting for something that she has admitted is wrong and unjust out of loyalty to her king and to the well-being of her people. This dialogue in one of the base conversations is what made me really like her:

Sothe: I know how you feel, Micaiah. That’s why we started all this. We’ve always been fighting for them. But this war we’re in… It’s not just. We’re fighting on the wrong side.

Micaiah: I know. I don’t want to see anyone die. It’s ironic… I’m killing with no malice, because I don’t want anyone to be killed. I… What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to stand back and let all of Daein perish? Is that the “just” thing to do?

Sothe: …

Micaiah: If that’s what it takes to be just, then I want nothing to do with justice. I’d rather be hated and feared like Mad King Ashnard. I’d rather the dark god take my soul. I’m going to save my people, Sothe. If the rest of the world paints me as a beast to be reviled and hated, so be it.

Edited June 5, 2016 by kantoorfarina

[blah the Prussian]

After she finds out about the Blood Pact, I have no objection to Micaiah fighting for Daein. Before that, though, she's just like any other Camus: stupid, and unwilling to own up to the fact that she's going along with evil. Again, I hate the Camus archetype, but RD is the only game where the Camus is presented as a good guy.

[Loki Laufeyson]

You gotta read my QUINTESSENCE? DON'T UNDERSTAND thread

I claim credit for singlehandedly changing people's views on FE7's story, yes that was me I did it

I read this ages ago and you never changed my opinion on it. Honestly, i think your little tirade made me appreciate that story more. And that is my unpopular opinion for the day.

[NekoKnight]

After she finds out about the Blood Pact, I have no objection to Micaiah fighting for Daein. Before that, though, she's just like any other Camus: stupid, and unwilling to own up to the fact that she's going along with evil. Again, I hate the Camus archetype, but RD is the only game where the Camus is presented as a good guy.

Xander

Also, RD keeps Micaiah pretty morally ambiguous.

[Magical Glace]

After she finds out about the Blood Pact, I have no objection to Micaiah fighting for Daein. Before that, though, she's just like any other Camus: stupid, and unwilling to own up to the fact that she's going along with evil. Again, I hate the Camus archetype, but RD is the only game where the Camus is presented as a good guy.

She clearly objects to it. However, she loves her country, people and king to the extent that she's willing to go along with it, it's been shown several times she's loyal to a fault.

I honestly think you're missing the point of Micaiah's character here.

[FrostyFireMage]

- I like Conquest's plot for the sole fact that it feels like actual effort was put into it

- I don't really care for Defend/Seize/Escape missions

- Xander is a terrible character

- I like using Hayato

- Birthright's cast > Conquest's cast

- I'm not really a fan of the Pegasus Knight class

- Charlotte isn't a bad unit

- I wish people would stop focusing on the gay aspect of Niles's character