The unbalanced units in Fates......

[Harvey]

I've beaten all the Fates paths and there are only few units that are well thought out.

I mean unlike Awakening where there are only a few units that can't combat well, Fates has like several of units that just have average or below average and some of them are just unbalanced.

Granted, you do get better units later on but on the retainers side, all the retainers are pretty awful....and I don't feel like using them often.

Let's start with Conquest since I love that game better than the other two games. I'm not going to rant about the units that are usable in both paths since they are decent units and that they don't really have that many issues that I can think of except Shura.

1. Laslow: This guy is literally dumb. He has low defence somehow worse than Selena, And then he can't really do all that much of offence either. I tried using this guy but he just can't seem to do so much of damage and he takes a lot of hit as soon as you get him.

2. Selena: She's slightly worse than Laslow because She doesn't have great STR. She's better on Laslow on one thing though and that's defense part. It still doesn't do much though. I did use her in Revelation and very often, I'm not so confident in her because of how her RES is terrible and that her LUC is somewhere in between.

3. Beruka: no.....she is terrible, I didn't even bother to continue to use her after chapter 10 even....no just not.

4.Arthur: Now don't get me wrong, he's really a good unit. Its just that he has no luck which is a nightmare since he can't avoid much and has a high chance of being critted. Sure, I should have made him a hero and gotten the Sol skill to save him at times but really....how will that fix his luck problem?

5. Odin: This unit is pathetically weak. Some argue that he's a good Swordmaster but really if that is the case, why make him a mage in the first place?

6. Peri: I used Peri in Revelation but she just can't seem to like be as good as even Silas. She has horrible defense, Skill, HP and mag.

7. Nyx: really.....this unit is awful. I never even bothered to use her after getting her. She's just forgettable. Her stats don't give enough justice to her so really....no.

8. Gunter: awful.....nothing to say here.

The only good units that are in Conquest are the main heroes and Niles. I never bothered using Benny, Carlolette and Effel since their characters aren't that much interesting both in design and personality nor have I ever bother to use children characters since well...... I'm not into that sort of thing.

Now let's go with Birthright my least favorite FE game (not that its bad but it just isn't memorable as Awakening).

1. Hana: She is just fragile and by the time I got Ryoma, I forgot about using her. She's the only character in Birthright that I sort of liked.

2. Hinata: As a Mymirdon ( yeah, its Samurai but I'll still say as Mymirdon) I don't really see him being that great or even passable. Again the same problem as Hana. Once Ryoma shows up, he is just hopeless.

3. Subaki: His luck like Arthur is just terrible and its only at first that he's useful but after that, he's hopeless.

4. Setsuna: I didn't use much of her but the fact that I can easily defeat her in Conquest is making me assume that she's terrible.

5. Kagero: I never bothered using her because of how I've read that many didn't use her that much because of her unbalanced stats....kinda like Peri.

6. Hinoka: She's a joke really. I tried to make her good but he just isn't good enough. She can't even beat Camilla even on Conquest side of things.

The only good units are that main heroes besides Hinoka, and Saizo and of course Reina that I used.

Now in fairness, I didn't get the kid units or even bothered to try the other units like how the others did, but I still feel as though many of the units seem to be just either average or below average.

I can't think of that many bad units in Awakening honestly.

[charlie_]

I'm not sure how not being an unstoppable killing machine makes a unit unbalanced.

Haven't finished Nohr/Rev but Hoshido definitely did a better job than 12/13 in not making most units worthless/too op.

[Thor Odinson]

...how the hell is BR Hinoka bad by any metric

And why the hell are you using stats as an enemy as a metric anyway

Edited May 27, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[DarkDestr0yer61]

4. Setsuna: I didn't use much of her but the fact that I can easily defeat her in Conquest is making me assume that she's terrible

What? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Also saying all those units are bad when they're not Ryoma is a bit unfair. And you said yourself that you didn't even use some of these units that you named

Edited May 27, 2016 by DarkDestr0yer61

[Light Strategist]

"Why make Odin a Dark Mage in the first place?" I hear you ask.

Plot reasons.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Light Strategist

[blah the Prussian]

Selena and Beruka? Really? Granted I'm biased because when I did my run of Conquest they were the badass lesbian battle couple from hell, but seriously? They worked out fine for me.

[Ycine]

My Setsuna is fine, like real fine. She is basically acing every single ennemy unit!

And all she needed was to be set up with Hinoka.

Also my Kagerou is a damn Monster too!

But I must agree with you about Subaki and Hinoka.

Mine are not really shining at all on the Battlefield.

Maybe when they got promoted. Maybe.

Edit : as for Hana and Hinata, I don't use them really much... so I can't really tell.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Ycine

[Harvey]

What? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Also saying all those units are bad when they're not Ryoma is a bit unfair. And you said yourself that you didn't even use some of these units that you named

I was just assuming. I didn't say that she's not great at all. If you find her great, then fine. Me? At first glance, she's not that interesting to begin with.

Also, its just my opinion of some of these units that I tried raising but didn't give any promising results. I get it, some people can be clever and use them in ways I can't imagine but in my playthroughs, the units I mentioned aren't promising as I hoped them to be.

And I'm not praising Ryoma here. He is too damn powerful that you don't even need to get him more skills. I'm just saying that once you get him, Hana and Hinata are worthless as Swordmasters because he aces them both.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Harvey

[Thor Odinson]

Anyone can get screwed. You can't base what you think are bad unit balance based on one playthrough without keeping their bases and growths and other potential utility usage in mind.

Saizo's one of my favorite nonroyals and someone I enjoy using greatly, but even he got incredibly bad levels for me one run because RNG is a piece of shit. It's like saying Saizo is a totally unbalancedly bad unit based on that one particular run even though in the grand scheme of things most of the time he does well. Talking unit balance requires a more analytical approach than "that unit got bad levels that one playthrough and I totally didn't look at the actual numbers but they're totally shit anyway"

[DarkDestr0yer61]

I mean your allowed to think whatever you want about any unit. If that means you think Hana and Hinata are useless, that's fine. The main thing I called you out on is the fact that assumed Setsuna was terrible based on how easily defeated her on Conquest. Which doesn't make any sense to me. It's not the fact that you think she's terrible. It's the reason why you think she's terrible

Edited May 27, 2016 by DarkDestr0yer61

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

this is some questionable logic here.

i know opinions are opinions, but opinions formed from ignorance are still not a total truth.

[General Banzai]

Oboro

[Anacybele]

Uh, yeah, just because you defeated someone easily doesn't mean they're a terrible unit. I one-shotted Effie with Hana (using an Armorslayer), and apparently, Effie is supposed to be really good.

Although to be fair, I never bothered with Setsuna when I had Takumi and Reina.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Anacybele

[eclipse]

Wrong subforum, dude. ;/

[ChaosGallade]

I don't agree with all of the retainers being bad. Oboro is one of the better ones, since she has good growths and does just fine in her default class. Out of the less than stellar retainers, Setsuna, Hinata, and Subaki spring into mind, mainly because of their growths - Setsuna is very weak, while Hinata and Subaki are unusually slow for being in stereotypically fast classes.

Peri is much better in Conquest than in Revelation. Yes, her Skill isn't the best, but why are you complaining about her Magic when she has little use for the stat and is in a physical class in Cavalier? Peri has good Strength, Speed, and Resistance, making her a good mage killer, especially as a Paladin.

Laslow is in the same boat as Peri (better in Conquest, but worse in Revelation). What he has over Selena is Strength and Skill, but Selena trumps him in Speed and Defense. It's a matter of preference on what Merc you like more.

Nyx is better than Odin, I can grant you that. Yes, she can't take a physical hit, but her Magic is monstrous.

Hinoka comes with a Guard Naginata and she has good growths. The latter is why she outclasses Subaki. That, and having her switch over to the Spear Fighter tree for a while, or even permanently, (to pick up Rend Heaven from Basara and Lancefaire from Spear Master) improves her performance.

I didn't have much problems with Saizo and Kagero; they performed okay for me.

It's weird that Azama has physically-oriented growths, yet is in a magical class. Turning him into a Great Master or Dread Fighter is worth it, IMO.

Effie is also one of the good retainers, as she's an early-game Knight in Conquest. She also has a good personal skill and good growths; she's even fast by Knight standards.

[Pepperyena]

Every unit you listed (Except Gunter, maybe) is extremely easy to make good. Beruka, for example, completely overshadowed Camilla during my playthrough of Conquest. Yes, it happened - she became a killing machine that was able to go into the fray and live, without any stat boosts.

I will admit that there are some units that are better than others - Nyx is pretty low in the tier list, but I made her an unstoppable beast once she got to be a level 20 sorcerer. Literally everything she attacked melted and her defense wasn't even that low due to growths as a Dark Knight.

What I mean to say is... There really aren't that many 'unbalanced units'. They just all have their strengths and weaknesses, and if you like them as a character, you can find a way to use them. I've even seen people use a max-stat Gunter in a competitive wifi battle, despite him having the lowest growths in the game.

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Hinoka- Good unit. She is a proper pegasus knight. Tsubaki is in fact pretty bad by comparison.

Setsuna- Not good. Problem is her lack of good growths outside of speed, which Mozu can nearly match anyway. Also, we have mr. Fujin yumi that can one shot most thing Setsuna probably doesn't have the strength to down in one arrow.

Hana's problem is the fact she's made of something weak like paper mache, or Raditz. Do not let her take a physical hit ever. Benched by Ryoma.

Hinata is worse at offense than Hana, but can take a hit physically. Like Tsubaki, uncharacteristically slow for his class. Benched by Ryoma.

Kagero- may be slow for a ninja, but she's a damn ninja. She will still double things frequently enough, and has high STR growths and caps to offset shuriken's MT problems. She's among the more powerful 1st gen characters.

Nyx- is actually better offensively than Owain. Her problem is her skill. Forge fire tomes if you want to not by tied to heartseeker. I will admit both she and Owain are inferior as casters through much of the game compared to strategist Elise, and to a lesser extent Felecia because dark mage accuracy problems can cause a really bad snowball effect with Nyx, and Owain being left behind in EXP, which will cause people to sit on the bench for the remainder of a conquest playthrough.

Beruka- solid flying physical tank. Could use wary fighter though

Peri- she has higher than normal STR, SPD, and RES. Her MAG doesn't matter. I don't use her more because the map you get her in doesn't allow for much training in conquest, and in revelations... well same problem Inigo, Niles, and Owain have when they join: unusable, and underleveled.

Severa and Inigo are just alright. They go from merc -> hero. No crazy strengths. No overly crippling weaknesses in growth.

You cannot ever say all retainers are bad when we have Oboro, Effie, Kagero, Beruka... etc. ESPECIALLY Oboro. She's one of the units that's nearly impossible to be bad.

Edited May 28, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[Time the Crestfallen]

Is nobody going to point out that he said Gunter was a bad unit, even though the entire point of the Jeigan archetype is that they will be outclassed by other units as the game progresses?

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Is nobody going to point out that he said Gunter was a bad unit, even though the entire point of the Jeigan archetype is that they will be outclassed by other units as the game progresses?

He's not worth mentioning or elaborating on. Saying he's bad is simply stating a fact really.

[Time the Crestfallen]

He's not worth mentioning or elaborating on. Saying he's bad is simply stating a fact really.

As a bad unit by himself? Yes. When you're talking about balance between the units? Definitely not. An unbalanced Jeigan would either have to be the best unit in the entire game or completely worthless as an early-game crutch, both of which go against the entire basis of the archetype.

[Xenomata]

I'll just say that any unit can be used. We aren't at the point in Fates lifetime where we need to be deeply considering who the best and who the worst are, we can all just use who we like as characters and work around their quirks. Each path can be beaten using any team of units, regardless of difficulty. Awakening has units who may as well not exist if you play Lunatic or Lunatic+, which is to say anyone who isn't a child unit.

For instance, you didn't like Benny and Charlotte as characters? I happen to rate Benny as one of, if not my absolute, favorite Male character in the cast, and he served as an immovable wall when I gave him a Guard Naginata. Charlotte is entertaining to watch with her character interactions, and she was a glass cannon straight to the end.

I know people don't really like Rinkah due to some of her growths being rather bad, but as the only ax user in Birthright for a good while without reclassing and resorting to prepromotes, I gave her a shot, and she is actually proving to be a good unit, mostly acting as my physical wall for Birthright.

..though it is stupid to think a character is bad because of how they were as an enemy unit. If that we're the case, then everyone in Conquest is freaking terrible if they can be 1-2 rounded.

As a bad unit by himself? Yes. When you're talking about balance between the units? Definitely not. An unbalanced Jeigan would either have to be the best unit in the entire game or completely worthless as an early-game crutch, both of which go against the entire basis of the archetype.

There is the Oifrey archetype, which is technically a branch out for the Jagen archetype.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

None of the unit mentioned in Conquest list is actually bad lol - Beruka flies. Selena had high speed, Laslow is workable just from having a good class set, Peri is still a horsie, Arthur is by far the best Husband for FE-MU and a solid combat unit, Odin is actually pretty broken if you know what to do with him(its not by going Samurai), Beruka is a super flying tank who have access to fighter

Fighter is good.

Even Gunter is still pretty good since he had 3-4 chapter showtime. After that he turns Nohr Noble Corrin into a god.

Seriously if you want to see some cheesing action, try Corrin as a Nohr Noble while marrying/paired up with Gunter. Shit is hilariously broken to the point that the best strategy for soloing fates with every character is essentially a worse version of this build

Edited May 28, 2016 by JSND

[Inference]

He's not worth mentioning or elaborating on. Saying he's bad is simply stating a fact really.

Those same 'facts' had scores of people claiming Donnel was broken in Awakening. Don't believe the hype. Forceful Partner is the shit.

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Those same 'facts' had scores of people claiming Donnel was broken in Awakening. Don't believe the hype. Forceful Partner is the shit.

Um... Donnel is crazy strong when you train him. His only real flaw is not having galeforce. Also, see below.

Even Gunter is still pretty good since he had 3-4 chapter showtime. After that he turns Nohr Noble Corrin into a god.

Seriously if you want to see some cheesing action, try Corrin as a Nohr Noble while marrying/paired up with Gunter. Shit is hilariously broken

I have a preference for Jakob's free AVO and damage reduction. Hard to notice that +3 damage when I use dragon fang and aether as much as I do. The hit would be alright for dodge happy swordmasters, and master ninjas I admit.

Anyway, no unit is truly unusable if trained. We just have a large cast and alot of redundancies.

Edited May 28, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[Irony]

As long as nobody says that Sakura sucks, then I'm happy. That lass is stupidly good in my current playthrough

I think the only units I've had serious issues with over the course of Fates are the ones who use Shurikens or Daggers. They can double enemies, yes, but their attacks are really weak. I'd prefer killing an enemy outright to weakening their defences and lowering their stats.