Brexit

[Excellen Browning]

How is support for national sovereignty, unfettered by the whims of busybody bureaucrats, "right wing". Let's be clear on this: The European Union is a collectivist nightmare, and opposition to that is not automatically on the fringes of the economic spectrum. To say so is to suggest that a majority of voters in the referendum are right wing or have been co-opted by the right wing, which is precisely the sort of elitist snobbery that led to folks wanting to leave the EU in the first place.

Lol no. I suppose that you, being an american and all, have very little understanding of the EU and the way it functions, or the debate that lead up to the referendum in the UK.

Most of the Leave campaign was was about the worries and fears maybe half of Britons regarding immigration and having to live with people of other ethnicities and persuasions. The Leave campaigners called it like that and the Remain acknowledged their concerns. All the nonsense spewed by the Leave campaign was called out for the crock it was. This was not elitist snobbery rubbing people the wrong way, that's pretty much unthinkable in the political system the UK has to begin with, but perhaps a sizable minority of the British public thinking that politicians are full of shit snobs anyway.

[Duff Ostrich]

I realize the role mass unchecked immigration played in the results of the referendum. It is still not right wing to believe in limits on immigration, or to worry about a flood people that don't share your language or values potentially imposing their way of life on the greater society.

Given the demographic distinctions that characterize the Leave and Remain campaigns, with well off urbanites, celebrities, and the Powers That Be falling firmly in the latter camp, I'd say that there is a certain tone of snobbishness at work here. I'd be very surprised if that didn't play at least a small part in many folks voting Leave. A conservative magazine like The Spectator is certainly willing to make that characterization: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/voting-remain-is-an-act-of-heartless-snobbery/

[Excellen Browning]

There was never any sort of "mass" "unchecked" immigration, and certainly not due to schengen/the EU.

Also this snobbishness you keep talking about is blatant prejudice.

[Light Strategist]

My stance on the matter VERY similar to chapter 6 of Fates.

Stay in Europe.

Gain Independence.

→ Refuse to choose a side.

[Duff Ostrich]

There was never any sort of "mass" "unchecked" immigration, and certainly not due to schengen/the EU.

Also this snobbishness you keep talking about is blatant prejudice.

Is that not why they call it a migrant "crisis"?

Prejudice on the part of whom? If it's the high and mighty moralizing from folks that look down on those who don't want to be part of The Plan, then yes I would agree that's partially why Remain lost.

[Irysa]

I can't believe even AFTER the referendum is over people are still confused about what powers the EU has.

The EU has no sovereignity over anything. There is no EU police or EU army to go after a country if they decide they're not going to obey particular laws or agree to demands (and creating an EU army would be impossible unless every single state agreed to it btw). The EU is merely a collective block of nations who come to agreements, using the power of their interconnected markets as a leveraging force against external and internal forces. All EU law must be signed into law by each member's own parliaments, and if a member violates those rules the worst that can happen is that they get sent fines they can refuse to pay, people get upset at them and don't vote with them on other issues, or they eventually get kicked out of the single market.

EU law cannot be imposed on any of its members anymore than NATO can keep its members to keep their commitment to spending 2% of their GDP on defence (protip, only the US, UK, Greece and Estonia honor that commitment). One only has to look at how pathetic the EU's response to the migration crisis has been to understand this, the EU can't MAKE any of the member states who refuse to take any migrants in do anything.

The Luxembourg Compromise is a pretty blatant example of how flimsy the framework of the EU really is.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Irysa

[Wist]

Is that not why they call it a migrant "crisis"?

Prejudice on the part of whom? If it's the high and mighty moralizing from folks that look down on those who don't want to be part of The Plan, then yes I would agree that's partially why Remain lost.

When people talk about the migrant crisis in Europe, they're talking about the increase in asylum seekers entering Europe. The UK was never in Schengen and would never have been party to any EU-wide refugee distribution process. Its separate border controls are why, for example, the camp in Calais exists. The UK was actually in an extraordinarily privileged position with regards to the migrant crisis.

Edit:

Also, Irysa's last post is excellent. It should be thoroughly considered by anyone who assumes the EU was an oppressive government the UK has just unshackled itself from.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Wist

[Tryhard]

The referendum was continuously called on and only came about because of noted far-right party UKIP having the sole goal of leaving the EU, and fringe groups in the Conservative party. I'm not embellishing anything to make the left look good, hard euro-scepticism (wanting to leave the EU outright) is just legitimately more of a right-wing thing.

As for sovereignty, the most ardent Euro-sceptics would try to sell you the conspiracy that the EU were purposely hiding plans for an EU army until after this referendum. Not that I really pay any credit to what they say.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Tryhard

[CyborgZeta]

One of the things I find interesting about Brexit is that even Europe has a strong cultural/political divide between major cities/urban areas and rural areas. Probably not on the level of the US, but noticeable nonetheless.

[Excellen Browning]

Interesting article by der Spiegel about how a brexit is likely to go down, and how it might actually benefit the EU:

http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-1099797.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=

In summary, getting rid of the UK means we finally get rid of the people who have been doing their best to frustrate collaboration that most other members want.

Added bonus in my opinion is that we'll also finally be rid of the lawlessness of The City, and finally have a way to force them to listen to their risk management departments. Or just have them pack up and relocate to countries where they'll be forced to do that, anyway.

[Irysa]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

I'm actually amazed at how things continue to escalate.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Irysa

[tuvarkz]

The referendum was continuously called on and only came about because of noted far-right party UKIP having the sole goal of leaving the EU, and fringe groups in the Conservative party. I'm not embellishing anything to make the left look good, hard euro-scepticism (wanting to leave the EU outright) is just legitimately more of a right-wing thing.

As for sovereignty, the most ardent Euro-sceptics would try to sell you the conspiracy that the EU were purposely hiding plans for an EU army until after this referendum. Not that I really pay any credit to what they say.

Except that Juncker, president of the EU commission, has been calling for an army for a good while, and there's already stuff involving the Dutch and the Germans merging their armies. When the president of the EU is pushing for an army, it's not a conspiracy theory, it's something that is as clear as daylight.

[Tryhard]

What Juncker wants is irrelevant, any EU member has the ability to veto and not to be dragged into it, including the UK... if it decided to stay in the EU. Specifically, the idea that the UK would be dragged into an emerging EU army is indeed a conspiracy.

That's beside the fact that voting based on a possibility of what could happen is rather bizarre considering the UK could have always chose to leave the EU at a later time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

I'm actually amazed at how things continue to escalate.

My, it certainly would be a shame for England to have no say as Scotland drag them through the mud again.

Seriously though, I don't foresee anything like this happening.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Tryhard

[Excellen Browning]

Again, I don't think you people understand how the EU works. Most of what top level EU politicians say doesn't matter because they're not the ones making or enacting policies. People like Juncker, Tusk and van Rompuy are there to get people on one line so the EU can function. Again, they don't make policy, that's entirely in the hands of national government and the European council.

[Tryhard]

If it wasn't already obvious by what was said, there is no exit plan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNe-yHr7uJc

Edited June 26, 2016 by Tryhard

[かベリー]

I have absolutely zero understanding of politics or any of that, so I barely even understood what happened. UK left the European Union and sorry if I sound rude, but how does that do anything?

[eclipse]

I have absolutely zero understanding of politics or any of that, so I barely even understood what happened. UK left the European Union and sorry if I sound rude, but how does that do anything?

Read the rest of this topic, and every last linked article before posting stuff like this. There's a lot of information of what happened, and why it's important. Assuming I read everything correctly, one of the things it does is drag Scotland out of the EU, against their wishes.

[Naughx]

I have absolutely zero understanding of politics or any of that, so I barely even understood what happened. UK left the European Union and sorry if I sound rude, but how does that do anything?

Well for Canada & the United States there is CETA and TTIP as trade deals that will now exclude the United Kingdom.

[Excellen Browning]

No. The UK did not leave the EU(yet).

The UK held a referendum on whether or not to stay in the EU. Their prime minister initially said, that if the leaving wins, he'd start the procedure for leaving immediately.

The UK voted to leave. The morning of the day after that, the prime minister resigned and said in so much words that he will not be the one to start procedures.

As far as I'm aware, from a British perspective, a new prime minister now needs to be appointed by the reigning political party, and only then can the British parliament pass a law that it will leave the EU. This process will probably take months.

From the perspective of the EU, leaving it is done by invoking article 50, after which the Brits will enter a two year period in which they will negotiate leaving terms and any trade agreements with the European Council. Depending on the terms, the EC needs to vote with a 72% majority, or the EC and all member states need to vote unanimously to ratify the treaty.

From the EU various voices have come up that they do not want the European economy held hostage during the time the Brits need to sort their things out. And because this is a situation without precedent, the EU might end up trying to force the UK out, though right now nobody knows if that's even possible.

[Water Mage]

You know how there is the petition to have a 2nd referendum?

Apparently it was set up by a Leave campaingner before the voting happened because he thought Remain would win.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-petition-second-eu-referendum-latest-news-vote-leave-a7104076.html

You can just taste the irony. Wonder how he feels that it's being used the opposite way he intended.

And if the petition will work at all.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Water Mage

[blah the Prussian]

The petition right now is being investigated for fraud. The whole affair is a complete farce.

[Water Mage]

The petition right now is being investigated for fraud. The whole affair is a complete farce.

To be honest, I'm not so sure if the petition would achieve anything, either real or fraud.

[Tryhard]

All it requires is 100,000 signatures to justify a response from parliament. The Petitions Commitee removed 77k of the votes already there, many others either being fraudulent or through botting scripts but there is still ~3.5 million listed currently.

Whether it'll do anything or not, probably not. It does highlight that the entire thing has been a shambles, though.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Tryhard

[Excellen Browning]

The referendum is non-binding now that Cameron has broken word about serving the divorce papers.

[Rezzy]

I'm not British, and I was neutral about Brexit, but I'm against a second referendum. The vote was 52-48 with the largest turnout in over two decades. In America, even landslide elections rarely reach the 60% threshold they are demanding. The people who didn't vote had their chance, and now people have to live with the decision of the majority. You can't just keep callin for additional referendums until you get the result you want. If Britain wasn't willing to follow through with the will of the majority, they shouldn't have had the referendum in the first place.