Shadow Mir Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Is Protean Greninja still busted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 (edited) Only reason its not viewed as busted right now is basically Pheromosa and Tapu Koko existing on the tier. And one of those should have been the first mon to go Technically speaking Apex is a check to the Low Kick Gunk Shot +2 set that got Greninja banned in ORAS Edited December 4, 2016 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltre Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 The issue with Greninja is that depending on its set it is literally unwallable. Gunk Shot pushed it over in ORAS but if Toxapex/Tentacruel started rising to counter it they'd just run Extrasensory instead haha. Not to mention the fact that it is bar none the best offensive spiker in the entire game. I disagree with Tapu Koko being busted though. The more I think about it the more I find that it's a really average mon in general, with enough counterplay that it's almost never that big of a threat to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Was talking about Pheromosa. Everyone knows i disagree with Aegislash being Ubers lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltre Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Was talking about Pheromosa. Everyone knows i disagree with Aegislash being Ubers lol Yeah I misread that lol. Phero was probably always busted and certainly is without Aegi. The only argument for it to stay IMO is to check Lelezam, but it's not a good argument though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 ohey look at me, lurking on Smogon and forgetting that Pokemon exists here too lol. I for one am very happy that Alolawak (actually, a lot of alola versions of otherwise lower-tier Pokemon) is competitively viable this gen; it's so rare for cool dino mons like Wak to see the spotlight like this haha. Very happy about that since alolawak is probably my favorite new thing this gen. Also, my boy Flygon finally gets Dragon Dance, so that's cool. Too bad he's still too weak for OU and whatnot ~___~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 (edited) Only reason its not viewed as busted right now is basically Pheromosa and Tapu Koko existing on the tier. And one of those should have been the first mon to go Technically speaking Apex is a check to the Low Kick Gunk Shot +2 set that got Greninja banned in ORAS The issue with Greninja is that depending on its set it is literally unwallable. Gunk Shot pushed it over in ORAS but if Toxapex/Tentacruel started rising to counter it they'd just run Extrasensory instead haha. Not to mention the fact that it is bar none the best offensive spiker in the entire game. So it's still some busted shit. Go figure. My gut was that it was still busted, and it was right. Edited December 4, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Greninja does have a new solid check in AV Magearna. It comes out tomorrow for WiFi players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Greninja does have a new solid check in AV Magearna. It comes out tomorrow for WiFi players. Erm, if everyone's forced to run one specific variant of a Pokemon to check it, wouldn't that still be banworthy on the grounds of overcentralization? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltre Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 To be fair, there are lots of things that are capable of walling Greninja. It's just that, again, it can run literally anything and make it work. Mantine would wall a special variant for example, but GS would blow it away. AV Magearna is just a mon that doesn't particularly care about any set that Greninja can run, at least for a switch in or two. Lack of recovery makes it less than ideal in the long term though. AV Muk-Alolan is another one that could work, and it doubles as a decent answer to Tapu Lele as well, so its not just a gimmick. The big thing here isn't that you don't have anything to switch in, in fact most of your teams probably do. It's that you won't know that until you've scouted its set because it can work with quite literally anything. It's a lot like Genesect in that regard, really. If he does get to stay OU this time we'd probably have to steal a few UU staples like Empoleon and Vaporeon, but it's not like it can't be worked around. The frog did get a few offensive checks worth talking about too, Tapu Koko being the big one. The new mega-mechanics also allow for Zam and Aero to use Greninja as an opportunity to evolve. If more mega stones were released then popular mons such as Lopunny, Manectric, and Beedrill could threaten him as well. Sadly, this isn't possible at the moment, so that one is in GF's court. I can certainly foresee a resurgence of rain as well, which have plenty of things to outspeed and KO this guy. Scarfers still wreck him and we've gotten a few more popular choices as well, such as Tapu Lele and Kartana that he wouldn't really like to allow in for free. As for the versatility aspect though, you can generally learn a lot about the Greninja set before it uses a single move if you really look at its teammates. There are no guarantees of course, but if a team struggles with Clef for example, you can be pretty sure that 'Ninja probably has Gunk Shot. The main thing I hate about this frog is when little Timmy has a team with 5 checks to Ferrothorn but decides to run HP Fire Gren anyways. That's really a ladder problem in general though so idk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Erm, if everyone's forced to run one specific variant of a Pokemon to check it, wouldn't that still be banworthy on the grounds of overcentralization? Wasn't trying to suggest that Magearna is the only check. It's still got the few it had from ORAS as well as Toxapex and Mantine. Gear is probably the best as it only takes ~40% from HP Fire/Hydro Pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) Wasn't trying to suggest that Magearna is the only check. It's still got the few it had from ORAS as well as Toxapex and Mantine. Gear is probably the best as it only takes ~40% from HP Fire/Hydro Pump. The problem is that those checks are all crapshoots - because Greninja can run anything, I'm practically forced to sack mons just to scout it. If that ain't a sign that Greninja's still busted, I don't know what is. Edited December 5, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) As for the versatility aspect though, you can generally learn a lot about the Greninja set before it uses a single move if you really look at its teammates. There are no guarantees of course, but if a team struggles with Clef for example, you can be pretty sure that 'Ninja probably has Gunk Shot. The main thing I hate about this frog is when little Timmy has a team with 5 checks to Ferrothorn but decides to run HP Fire Gren anyways. That's really a ladder problem in general though so idk. Never forget legend of low ladder when your Defensive Landorus Therian switch in on MZardX in a squad with 5 mon that beat Landorus Therian + MZardX and the MZardX somehow uses Hidden Power Ice Speaking of which i heard Ash Greninja started to get decent uses in the higher ladder. I kinda want to see smogon banning ProNinja without banning AshNinja just to see people who says Greninja sucks without Protean cringe tbh Gear is actually a "counter level" check to Greninja. Fully invested with AV Gren only deals 28 max with LO Hydro Edited December 5, 2016 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltre Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) To be fair, Greninja would be pretty average offensively without Protean if they didn't give it Moxie on crack as an alternative ability. It'd actually be balanced if Torrent were its only option lol. They'll never ban Protean + Greninja though because other mons get Protean. Edt: This is unrelated, but SubToxic Salazzle is actually pretty hilarious. It's worth trying out if you're looking for something different, in only really loses to Volt Switch because of the 4X Bug Resist on U-Turn. If you're ever allowed to Sub and they don't have Volt Switch support it's basically a dead mon. Sub/Toxic/Protect/Flamethrower for the set, Dual STAB doesn't really help her at all since Heatran is a hard counter to your attacking options no matter what you do, and fire is a better attacking type in general. Sludge Wave or Venoshock can be slashed to smack fairies if you're particularly weak to them. Taunt is also an option over Protect, but Protect will allow you to stall out basically anything so long as it's slower. Bonus points if you stack recovery with Tapu Bulu. Edited December 5, 2016 by Deltre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) Eh honestly i'm one of very few people who legit think Greninja with Torrent would still be amazing I mean everyone says its just an average fast special attacker, but a fast generic special attacker is actually pretty rare on its own. Theres only Starmie and that one had way worse typing and speed range Edited December 5, 2016 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) Edt: This is unrelated, but SubToxic Salazzle is actually pretty hilarious. It's worth trying out if you're looking for something different, in only really loses to Volt Switch because of the 4X Bug Resist on U-Turn. If you're ever allowed to Sub and they don't have Volt Switch support it's basically a dead mon. Sub/Toxic/Protect/Flamethrower for the set, Dual STAB doesn't really help her at all since Heatran is a hard counter to your attacking options no matter what you do, and fire is a better attacking type in general. Sludge Wave or Venoshock can be slashed to smack fairies if you're particularly weak to them. Taunt is also an option over Protect, but Protect will allow you to stall out basically anything so long as it's slower. Bonus points if you stack recovery with Tapu Bulu. ^^^^ (for those who don't know, Salazzle's ability lets it poison things that are otherwise immune to poison >>) Edited December 5, 2016 by BANRYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 What's stopping anyone from switching in a Scarfer or faster mon and breaking the sub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 What's stopping anyone from switching in a Scarfer or faster mon and breaking the sub? Nothing, but presumably with something as fragile as Salazzle you're playing cautiously and not staying in against anything that super threatens you (one reason why NP isn't that great on it IMO). In that situation I imagine you're using Protect to scout the scarfer's move, then switching in an appropriate counter...?? So... what's wrong with that, exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltre Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 (edited) What's stopping anyone from switching in a Scarfer or faster mon and breaking the sub? There is very little in the unboosted game that outspeeds actually. Off the top of my head, there's Greninja, Tapu Koko, and Pheromosa, Mega Zam, and Mega Aero. If you suspect a fast Volt Switch, you can Sub again, and if they only have a scarfer to outspeed you can always scout them out with Protect or Toxic them if you're behind a Sub since nothing is immune. One round of Hazards, + 2 Turns required to actually threaten you out from behind a Sub (one to break the sub, and one more on the Protect) adds up quickly on a Poisoned target, chipping about 30% of their health, for 12.5% of your own. It also helps that many common scarfers such as Genesect, Jirachi, and Excadrill are helpless to stop you, in fear of Fire STAB. The same thing applies to Pheromosa as well, and Tapu Koko may fear you as well until you reveal which STAB option you are carrying, and even then an uninvested Flamethrower tears off a nice 50%. Also, there's not a single U-Turn in the game that can break your Substitute, assuming you run 248 HP (which you should, since you're not directly attacking most things). It's definitely not sweeping on its own in most cases, but you'd be surprised how often that reliable chip damage can open up a win for one of your dedicated cleaners. If paired with hazards, you force the opponent to play at your pace, and can gain a ton of momentum off even a single substitute. You could also use Fire Blast over Flamethrower for added power of course, I just hate missing lol. Basically this girl plays like a SubSeeder with a much better offensive typing that can do its thing vs any mon since there is nothing common immune except MSableye. Edited December 5, 2016 by Deltre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 (edited) does a defensive support A-Ninetails have merit? Its spA base is pretty low, and if you opt for a timid nature, it probably won't be killing things quickly, so i am thinking why not a more defensive spread? Edited December 6, 2016 by SlayerX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltre Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 does a defensive support A-Ninetails have merit? Its spA base is pretty low, and if you opt for a timid nature, it probably won't be killing things quickly, so i am thinking why not a more defensive spread? The main problem with going for full-on bulk with ATales is that Ice is a horrid typing defensively. I definitely think you have the right idea with a more supportive set though, as Sweeper/Breaker sets tend to brick wall against Steels very hard. Max speed is non-negotiable however, because 109 Speed is just too nice for outspeeding a ton of common threats at 108 Speed like Keldeo and friends. If I use ATales I always go with Max SpAtk Max Spe Timid Nature with Moonblast/Freeze Dry/Encore/Aurora Veil. Light Clay does work with Aurora Veil making her the best Screener around as far as I'm concerned, but Icy Rock can be used on a Hail Team if that's your thing. You definitely want Freeze Dry though, because ATales can basically dismantle Rain by itself if you play your cards right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 (edited) The main problem with going for full-on bulk with ATales is that Ice is a horrid typing defensively. I definitely think you have the right idea with a more supportive set though, as Sweeper/Breaker sets tend to brick wall against Steels very hard. Max speed is non-negotiable however, because 109 Speed is just too nice for outspeeding a ton of common threats at 108 Speed like Keldeo and friends. If I use ATales I always go with Max SpAtk Max Spe Timid Nature with Moonblast/Freeze Dry/Encore/Aurora Veil. Light Clay does work with Aurora Veil making her the best Screener around as far as I'm concerned, but Icy Rock can be used on a Hail Team if that's your thing. You definitely want Freeze Dry though, because ATales can basically dismantle Rain by itself if you play your cards right. Interesting, i dont think i can get freeze dry yet, so that will have to wait i think. I do have the moonblast and encore though. My thought with a more defensive set (mind you still keeping max speed) was to have a ninetails that could survive ust a little more under pressure with aurora veil. I think i'll follow your advise though. I ust saw her resistances... She should have kept the fire typing and added fairy lol. But then she probably wouldn't have had the veil. oh well XD Edit, nvm Smeargle can learn Freeze dry from Glalie... ugh and I ust finished making the a great Vulpix otherwise ;_; Edited December 6, 2016 by SlayerX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Interesting, i dont think i can get freeze dry yet, so that will have to wait i think. I do have the moonblast and encore though. My thought with a more defensive set (mind you still keeping max speed) was to have a ninetails that could survive ust a little more under pressure with aurora veil. I think i'll follow your advise though. I ust saw her resistances... She should have kept the fire typing and added fairy lol. But then she probably wouldn't have had the veil. oh well XD Edit, nvm Smeargle can learn Freeze dry from Glalie... ugh and I ust finished making the a great Vulpix otherwise ;_; Pre-Bank can use the Island Scan Swinub which automatically know Freeze Dry. That's what I did. I do 252 SpA/252 Spe w/ Timid. The intent isn't to kill, but there's little point in boosting something else due to the frailty. It helps against Pelipper trying to intercept the veil with Drizzle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Pre-Bank can use the Island Scan Swinub which automatically know Freeze Dry. That's what I did. I do 252 SpA/252 Spe w/ Timid. The intent isn't to kill, but there's little point in boosting something else due to the frailty. It helps against Pelipper trying to intercept the veil with Drizzle. Nice, thanks. would have gone the long way around otherwise. Glad today is a monday :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 I'm kinda surprised Hyper Offense Ninetales haven't become a thing yet. Only screen breaker that is commonly used is Tapu Fini, Latis, and Sharpedo and its really just click Aurora Veil -> Click set up move. I guess the meta kinda lacks OP set up sweeper aside from Zygarde and P-Z to make it an actual thing but idk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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