ace attorney Best and Worst Ace Attorney Case ever made

[Sasori]

Okay, I want to say this: so Dhurke, infamous rebel leader of the Defiant Dragons, managed to get to the US. How? Are the TSA really this incompetant? "Okay, sure, Mr. Infamous Terrorist, you can get on the plane, right next to Ho Chi Minh, Che Guevara, and Osama Bin Laden, all of whom are also definitely model citizens who met with great scrutiny on the plane!" Also, are they really being so obvious about the main villain? I guess Dahlia Hawthorne wasn't much of a surprise, but she wasn't the killer in that case, either. Now, if Dhurke pulled a Matt Engarde and was actually evil and was manipulating things to make the Monarchy look bad, that would be good. Ah well, that's probably just the Monarchist in me talking. Then again, they're pretty clearly setting it up so that Rayfa leads Khu'rain after Ga'ran is inevitably outed as evil (not saying this is going to happen, just a prediction, I don't actually know this, this is not a spoiler) so at least Khu'rain isn't a Republic. Also, Rayfa, you saying your country has never been invaded might be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Being on the western edge of East Asia would put the country in the crosshairs of so many Great powers it's mind boggling. I mean, the Chinese, Mongols, Russians, British, Japanese, Timurids, and Muslims would all probably be gunning for you at some point. Bullshit.

I really really don't like Dhurke, but how he got to the States without anyone noticing is actually adressed later on so thats one of the things I don't blame him for. I thought Ga'ran was a bit meh at first, but I warmed up to her quickly.

Dhurke and Ga'ran thoughts with a little bit of Fates spoilers

I fully admit i'm biased against Dhurke because I don't like the reveal in this game, but the guy keeps annoying me. He's essentially a lawyer, leader of the most clean, bloodless and moral revolution ever, the adopted father of Apollo, the real father of Nayhuta AND he's the former husband of queen Amara. Is there anything in Khura'in that this god of a man did't play a part in?

I like Ga'ran and I believe she shows everything that Garon lacked. Just because you are a ruler that screams evil does not mean you should reduce your vocabulary to "YOU DARE DEFY ME!", "HAHAHAH" and death threats. Instead Ga'ran is initially showed as a bit sinister, but still very civil. She even apologises for Inga. I like how she actually defended something as cartoonishly wrong as the DC act. "Well faith in the legal system was crumbling thanks to Lawyers so we did the DC act to protect the legal system. Laywers who win are still allowed her and oh yeah crime is down."

Sure its probably fake and definately wrong, but an actual answer is refreshing after Garon not even bothering with defending his case.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Sasori

[blah the Prussian]

Oh yeah, also: Paul Atishon's grandfather gave him a small loan of one million dollars.

[Rapier]

Ok, I just finished 6-5 and I think I can hand down my verdict on this game.

[spoiler=up to end game spoilers]

I think it deserves a 8/10, but I'm no critic and it's 1:20 AM and I'll probably judge it wrongly. Whatever.

The first case was slow and full of exposition, which made it boring on most parts, but the concepts introduced were interesting (the Séances are much improved versions of Athena's gadget, they require more attention and independent thinking from the player's part, and the interpretation of the victim' perspective brings a lot to table to discuss). Hippie Jesus was amusing witness and an average culprit. It provides some insights about what is wrong with the country and how twisted the legal system has become. So far, it's fine.

And speaking about being fine, the second case was a good debut for Apollo and a nice opportunity for Trucy to develop as a character and get some [much needed and deserved] time in the limelight. I missed seeing Valant on Troupe Gramarye's great debut, but it's just a minor nitpick. It gave her an opportunity to stand up and show that she's still there and being important.

The culprit felt like a tougher enemy to crack, like Redd White on AA1, being a big shot from a very influentional media channel who could've ended Trucy, Apollo and Athena's career right there with massive public shaming, while at the same time taking Wright's agency right when he was off. The twist - that he was the true Mr. Reus - would've been brilliant, if not for the obvious herring when he makes the camera disappear on the Lobby. A good case, regardless, and I'm thankful that I did not have to show how the magic trick worked like in that awful, 4-3 case.

Case 3 was a refreshing Nick & Maya back into action nostalgic experience, coupled with a case full of twists, which managed to show a darker side to the current affairs on Khura'in and give Rayfa some grounds for character development later on. I have issue with how much of a stroke of luck it was for Wright to get access to the rebel base and then figure out the true murder scene, without which he'd get a guilty verdict again on trial, but I think that's passable. I don't see an issue with Tahrust's suicide and his motivations. If he did not do so, his wife would be seen in Zeh'lot's Séance and prematurely judged as guilty, because no lawyers exist in Khura'in save for Wright and severe anti-lawyer customs could easily influence Tahrust on his decision to commit suicide instead of pleading for Wright's help on the matter.

Case 4 was meh, Turnabout Big Top tier except slightly better because at least it only had a single trial day, and I could bear with the Moe the Clown and Regina Berry tier witnesses. At least the interactions between Athena and Blackquill were interesting and provided more exposition to their personalities.

Case 5 was cool, but I think it could've worked better. The first part of the game tried to be like 2-4 but didn't succeed that much because it wasn't much of a surprise that Maya was being held hostage, and Paul Atishon was as obvious a villain as the culprit of 2-1 (they even have the same smug faces, I think). Wright could've told Apollo about it instead of bearing with his burden all alone, instead of making a lot of drama just for the "big clash of attorneys" to turn into an unintended accident that could've been avoided. It did not live to the premise's hype.

The trial part was predictable at some parts and I don't see how there was proof that Atishon used the suitcase to kill Archie. Moving the wheelchair does not prove that, and the possibility that it happened does not prove that either. I think Dhurke's exposition was too sudden and I thought he was being forced onto the player, but he grew on me as the case developed. Sarge made this case hilarious at some parts, or it's just me and my Hearts of Iron / Victoria fanboyism speaking as loud as her military fangirlism.

I think Ga'ran held the stupid ball far too often, and looking like Maleficent doesn't give her any credits too. I liked her when she just looked like an imposing queen who was as polite as she seemed machiavellan, as in case 3 and early case 5, before she dons her Aversa costume and prosecutes the trial. It was also full of herrings, and I was easily misguided by thinking I got it all when I figured out Nayna was Amara, when that was just the tip of the iceberg. Rayfa's character development did her justice, as I saw it.

I just wish this game did not use so many ideas from past titles.

[blah the Prussian]

To Rapier:

But she wouldn't have been. Zeh'lot didn't see her in the seance when they did it for this trial, so why would she be seen Iif Tahrust confessed?

[Bluedoom]

To Rapier:

But she wouldn't have been. Zeh'lot didn't see her in the seance when they did it for this trial, so why would she be seen Iif Tahrust confessed?

The thing is, from his point of view, Tah'rust doesn't know that Zeh'lot didn't see her in his last moments.

[blah the Prussian]

The thing is, from his point of view, Tah'rust doesn't know that Zeh'lot didn't see her in his last moments.

Now, that's a good point. Still, he could see the crime scene and deduce that his wife pushed the slab onto him, and that thus his vision would be limited. Failing that, he could say it was him in court and provide bullshit reasons for why.

[Thane]

[spoiler=6-3]The guy was a rebel who believed in Dhurke, yet didn't even talk to Phoenix. He then framed an innocent girl and took his own life, and his wife played along.

This does not show Khura'in's messed up legal system (which I thought would be the plot of Dual Destinies, but hey, it's hardly the only idea reused in this game), but rather two very selfish individuals who gambled with two other people's lives. They deserve no sympathy from the players and their shitty behavior makes me think less about the situation in Khura'in and more about how it's filled to the brim with assholes.

[Rapier]

Now, that's a good point. Still, he could see the crime scene and deduce that his wife pushed the slab onto him, and that thus his vision would be limited. Failing that, he could say it was him in court and provide bullshit reasons for why.

It's not possible to know beforehand how much Zeh'lot would've seen, and for all they knew he saw and spoke to Behleeb on his last moments and posed a threat for her should the Séance happen. That was reason enough for a desperate move based on what they thought would happen.

He couldn't just say it was him and provide bullshit reasoning if his wife were to be clearly seen on the Séance pool. While that was not what happened, it was what Tahrust and Behleeb thought would happen.

What I don't understand is, if Tahrust intended to hide Zeh'lot's body, why expose it in plain sight so the police could find him and perform the Séance that he wanted to avoid? He could've hidden it on the rebel secret base, used his own blood to cover for Zeh'lot's and leave it at that. Or just get rid of the bloody water. He had plenty of chance to do that before the festival. But I think my suspension of disbelief still works if I assume it was a desperate move from a desperate person. When emotion speaks louder, I can give a pass to illogical acts.

[spoiler=6-3]The guy was a rebel who believed in Dhurke, yet didn't even talk to Phoenix. He then framed an innocent girl and took his own life, and his wife played along.

This does not show Khura'in's messed up legal system (which I thought would be the plot of Dual Destinies, but hey, it's hardly the only idea reused in this game), but rather two very selfish individuals who gambled with two other people's lives. They deserve no sympathy from the players and their shitty behavior makes me think less about the situation in Khura'in and more about how it's filled to the brim with assholes.

He believed in Dhurke but not in Phoenix. That's plausible. Wright is a foreigner who won a case and stayed in Khura'in for only a week or two, hardly being a trustworthy figure for anyone who doesn't know him well by then. Tahrust would be faced with the [putative] dilemma of betting all of his chips on said foreigner, gambling with his pregnant wife's life, or take a safer, more drastic option, and he went with the second option. Most people prefer safer bets than risky bets, so, even without a stigma for lawyers, I can understand why Tahrust would have little faith on Wright.

As for blaming an innocent girl, his wife was also innocent, and between sacrificing his innocent pregnant wife or sacrificing that innocent foreigner, he chose the "least worst" option. Seems plausible, doesn't it?

Also, Khura'in being filled to the brim with assholes and its legal system being shit aren't mutually exclusive. I can understand why a bunch of fanatical religious fundamentalists, sunk deep on their faith, culture, tradition and preconceptions, would look down on lawyers after Dhurke was proven to be guilty of killing their queen, who should pretty much be as holy as the Pope to them, and forging evidence to save his ass. It does not make logical sense, but by association and a lot of anti-lawyer propaganda (and laws), courtesy of Ga'ran, I see how social engineery could do this "brainwashing" to those people. They're not by any means excused of being assholes, but their state is comprehensible. Can we really expect more from them?

It's not a problem with the writting.

also, I have to agree that reused ideas were a lame move.

Making references is one thing, using them as relevant plot points is another.

6-2 takes some ideas from 4-3; 6-5 takes the premise of 2-4 on the first part and Atishon is pretty much a lamer Engarde; Ga'ran acts like Damon Gant (does Yamazaki like that case so much? lol), when she threatens her detractors to bow down lest she dispose of Rayfa, and Quercus Alba, when she could've ended the trial right there but continued with it for her amusement and ego feeding, only for it to backfire on her; Sahdmadhi has a mix of Edgeworth and Lana Skye's backstories; Dhurke has a big portion of Wright's story copy pasted and the game even admits it; they have Johnny Depp as a villain.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Rapier

[Sasori]

I've finally beaten the game so I think I have my rating for all the cases ready, but I do think I spoke a bit too soon about Ga'ran and Dhurke.

Case 5 spoilers

So Dhurke is Reyfa's real father? Did they seriously need to make mister perfect even more involved in everything? With all the reveals piled on top of him he's now a lawyer, bloodless revolutionary leader, Apollo's adopted father, Nayuta's father, Reyfa's real father, the husband of queen Amara, dead all along and orchestrator of Ga'ran's downfall.

I praised Ga'ran before for being civil and not so much of a mustache twirler, despite the obviously evil signs. She kind of tosses that all out for more conventional evil when she starts procecuting. She's quite the mustache twirler in court and her arrogance gives the opposition plenty of oppertunities.

Still I kinda like Ga'ran for not going down without a fight. Even when things where going out her control she still had some things she used such as Reyfa or Nayuta getting dragged along with her or just murdering the opposition when every other option failed. She gets a few awesome points, despite being a bit too obviously evil for my liking.

There's also the ending which i'm not a fan of. I don't like the idea of Apollo staying in Kura'in at all and I hope he'll return to the States soon like he said he would.

Anyway my final ranking without spoiling things

Case 2: This might be my favourite case in the entire series. Some nice twists, an amazing villain and I don't remember this case being dragged down by anything stupid (Amazing)

Case 3: Quite the rollercoaster that ended up taking me completely off guard on several occasions. I did't feel as much symphathy for certain characters as much as the game thought they deserved, but i'll let that slide and focus on the stuff I did like. (Good)

Case 1: An amusing villain saves this case from being bad. Still its not really a good case either since its too long and consists of info dump after info dump. The villain not going down easily should be a point in its favour, but by then I just wanted this case to end already. (Acceptable)

Case 4: Its nice to see Simon again, but Athena being portrayed as extremely incompetent, an unlikeable defendent and focusing on something too Japanese for me to understand ended up dragging this case down. At least it doesn't overstay its welcome. (Meh)

Case 5: I still have no idea what to make of this case to be honest. It has some good idea's, but all the things I did not like about Spirit of Justice kept getting shoved in my fave. (No idea)

Edited September 25, 2016 by Sasori

[Thane]

He believed in Dhurke but not in Phoenix. That's plausible. Wright is a foreigner who won a case and stayed in Khura'in for only a week or two, hardly being a trustworthy figure for anyone who doesn't know him well by then. Tahrust would be faced with the [putative] dilemma of betting all of his chips on said foreigner, gambling with his pregnant wife's life, or take a safer, more drastic option, and he went with the second option. Most people prefer safer bets than risky bets, so, even without a stigma for lawyers, I can understand why Tahrust would have little faith on Wright.

As for blaming an innocent girl, his wife was also innocent, and between sacrificing his innocent pregnant wife or sacrificing that innocent foreigner, he chose the "least worst" option. Seems plausible, doesn't it?

Also, Khura'in being filled to the brim with assholes and its legal system being shit aren't mutually exclusive. I can understand why a bunch of fanatical religious fundamentalists, sunk deep on their faith, culture, tradition and preconceptions, would look down on lawyers after Dhurke was proven to be guilty of killing their queen, who should pretty much be as holy as the Pope to them, and forging evidence to save his ass. It does not make logical sense, but by association and a lot of anti-lawyer propaganda (and laws), courtesy of Ga'ran, I see how social engineery could do this "brainwashing" to those people. They're not by any means excused of being assholes, but their state is comprehensible. Can we really expect more from them?

It's not a problem with the writting.

also, I have to agree that reused ideas were a lame move.

Making references is one thing, using them as relevant plot points is another.

6-2 takes some ideas from 4-3; 6-5 takes the premise of 2-4 on the first part and Atishon is pretty much a lamer Engarde; Ga'ran acts like Damon Gant (does Yamazaki like that case so much? lol), when she threatens her detractors to bow down lest she dispose of Rayfa, and Quercus Alba, when she could've ended the trial right there but continued with it for her amusement and ego feeding, only for it to backfire on her; Sahdmadhi has a mix of Edgeworth and Lana Skye's backstories; Dhurke has a big portion of Wright's story copy pasted and the game even admits it; they have Johnny Depp as a villain.

[spoiler=6-3]I'm sorry, but I can't share your opinion of such an outrageous a move. Sure, Tahrust may not trust Phoenix enough to put all of his eggs in the latter's basket, but he also had no idea his own plan would work either. There's also the fact that he took his own life and will be unable to raise his child no matter the results. That, coupled with him gambling with two other people's lives, automatically makes this unable to be considered the "least bad" option.

[spoiler=On Khura'inians all being assholes]Yes. Yes we can expect more from them because the very premise of the game is based on something that shatters any suspension of disbelief. No sane person would assume that all people of a certain profession are all evil - not even politicians are that hated since all but the most ignorant people know most politicians work on a regional and local level. Like it or not, but this happens in modern world, where there are international laws and rules to follow, and we know the country is at least somewhat well off since it has never suffered from participating in a war.

However, that's not even the main issue. The biggest problem is that we're supposed to be interested in Khura'in and approve of Apollo moving there to make things better, but it's hard to get involved with a nation where we primarily see selfish, rude, arrogant, racist, superstitious and downright horrible people.

[spoiler=Yamazaki reusing ideas]The problem isn't reusing ideas, the problem lies in reusing so many ideas to such an extent. Sadhmadhi is just a combination of Edgeworth and Blackquill, the latter being introduced in the blood prequel. Khura'in having a messed up legal system that needs to be fixed is far too similar to the failed dark age of the law subplot. I've listed more examples, but you get the idea. If it feels like I've already read something which is actually new and it hinders my enjoyment, it's not written well at all.

[blah the Prussian]

Man, guys, I can't wait to go to the UK and see the Elizabeth Royal Guard!

More seriously, I'm starting to think that most of the issues with the narrative could have been fixed by removing the DC act.

[RealShouzouKaga]

The DCAct is a masterpiece of writing, only trumped by the amazing villain that is the phantom

[RealShouzouKaga]

The DCAct is a masterpiece of writing, only trumped by the amazing villain that is the phantom

[Thane]

A Gamexplain video about Apollo Justice. Sadly, I don't have time to listen to it right now, but so far I don't really agree with everything they've said.

I've been considering writing a review for Spirit of Justice later. I had practically forgotten about the game already, but seeing Apollo Justice getting so much shit while people love the latest installment is something that really bothers me. Opinions are opinions, yes, but I just have too many problems with Yamazaki's writing and I feel like a lot of people ignore the issues with his style.

[secondworld]

A Gamexplain video about Apollo Justice. Sadly, I don't have time to listen to it right now, but so far I don't really agree with everything they've said.

I've been considering writing a review for Spirit of Justice later. I had practically forgotten about the game already, but seeing Apollo Justice getting so much shit while people love the latest installment is something that really bothers me. Opinions are opinions, yes, but I just have too many problems with Yamazaki's writing and I feel like a lot of people ignore the issues with his style.

I have listened to the discussion and am also a fan of SomecallmeJohnny and BrainScratch Commentaries, so I have also heard most of their points before. Ted is basically the dude driving the AJ-hate train, you'll see many comments on that video hating on him as well(I'll come back to this in a bit). Now I don't always agree with him on... quite a few things really, a couple points in that discussion even, but one thing I do agree on is the overall quality of the game and its story. I've ranted about AJ on several occasions including early in this thread but I'm getting off-topic. The point I was getting to is that Ted the AJ rant extraordinaire actually wasn't too fond of SoJ from what I understand. Now I am aware your point isn't necessarily about this discussion, but seeing as you posted it in your... post... I figured I'd share.

I wanted to bring up those comments on the video because many of them state that his opinion about AJ is apparently invalid because of his SoJ review that didn't praise it as one of the best in the series. The world can be a funny place sometimes.

(I probably went a bit too wordy there but so much talk about Ace Attorney recently that I can't participate in, which bothers me more than it should. Guess I got a bit excited about having something to say.)

EDIT: I went and watched that review(here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHFVqsp_PTM) and wow that dislike bar. The comments as well. As someone who hasn't played SoJ yet, I didn't see anything particularly wrong with the review, so unless there was something in there that he just got objectively really wrong, these reactions seem more than a bit ridiculous.

Edited September 27, 2016 by SecondWorld

[Ace Pelleas]

I recently watched this video and I found the opinions rather interesting. It establishes some notable points in the plotholes. Like the Case 3 contradiction and the Mason System(This one hasn't convinced me). I should point the fact that Apollo Justice is my favourite entry in the series. We see a new perspective of some characters and the prosecutor is finally useful(Besides Miles in 2-4). It may lack in some aspects,but it did way better in many ways (especially OST)

[Ema Skye]

I just have too many problems with Yamazaki's writing and I feel like a lot of people ignore the issues with his style.

Ngl I love Yamazaki's writing and I know I'm not the only one.

I've read your post on the "issues" and those are the reasons why people like his writing.

[Thane]

Ngl I love Yamazaki's writing and I know I'm not the only one.

I've read your post on the "issues" and those are the reasons why people like his writing.

Lack of personality in his characters, repeating or downright copying ideas for characters, cases and subplots and constantly failing to execute his grandiose plots are reasons to like his writing?

[MCProductions]

Lack of personality in his characters, repeating or downright copying ideas for characters, cases and subplots and constantly failing to execute his grandiose plots are reasons to like his writing?

Opinion, inevitable eventually in a series with this many characters, and again opinion.

[solrocknroll]

Opinion, inevitable eventually in a series with this many characters, and again opinion.

like seriously

there's a way to present your opinions without pretending they're law

I think Takumi isn't a good writer considering how PLvsPW, AJ, and DGS turned out. PL and AJ weren't terrible, but they did leave some to be admired. I enjoyed DGS's use of Iris and Sherlock, but the game has a lot of issues in other areas. Meanwhile Yamazaki has written some really enjoyable games. The original trilogy was really good, but it's also got it's fair share of plot holes and annoying characters (lol Wendy/Lotta/Larry). I actually think Justice for All is the best game in the series because of how great Turnabout Big Top is, but I'm not going to say Turnabout Big Top is perfect. The only other case in the series I like as much is Recipe for Turnabout though.

In fact, the only issue I have with Yamazaki's games are the character designs, which I feel are pretty inferior to older designs like Furio Tigre or Ron DeLite and so on.

[Thane]

Opinion, inevitable eventually in a series with this many characters, and again opinion.

You can't possible tell me Yamazaki's characters are particularly well developed, can you?

Also, as for point two, let's take a look at case 1-5 and 5-5 and see if we can find a few similarities in the premise, shall we? I'll take this from Bad Player at the Court Records forum, who phrased it better than I ever could:

Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D]discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D] insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor[Person D], but actually [Person A].

That goes well beyond any natural similarity in a case.

Also, as for the final point about failing with the grandiose plots: did you think the dark age of the law thing was well done? Did you think Khura'in and the bloodless revolution was done well?

[MCProductions]

You can't possible tell me Yamazaki's characters are particularly well developed, can you?

Also, as for point two, let's take a look at case 1-5 and 5-5 and see if we can find a few similarities in the premise, shall we? I'll take this from Bad Player at the Court Records forum, who phrased it better than I ever could:

Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D]discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D] insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor[Person D], but actually [Person A].

That goes well beyond any natural similarity in a case.

Also, as for the final point about failing with the grandiose plots: did you think the dark age of the law thing was well done? Did you think Khura'in and the bloodless revolution was done well?

For starters, your assuming I'm a Yamizaki defender, I'm not, I don't hate his writing, but I don't absolutely adore it either.

That said, no, not all of his characters are developed, but neither are all of the characters in the original trilogy so it's a moot point. It's been a long while since I've played DD, but wasn't the final case being similar to the first a plot point? I explicitly seem to remember the 1st case taking place at damn near the same time as the final, tho I may be remembering wrong. And finally, considering how much I've bashed Khurain since I've played AA6, I clearly don't think it was done well, but many others disagree with me, and as much as I LOATHE the Khurainites, I think they allowed Apollo's much needed character development the space it needed to shine, asspull nonewithstanding.

My entire post was made to show you the perspective of Yamizaki defenders, and while I did enjoy DD and SOJ, I would not consider myself a Yamizaki defender

[blah the Prussian]

Dammit. Ga'ran was a good villain, too, until it was decided that she didn't need subtlety. Talk about going from your own character to gender swapped Manfred Von Karma.

[Water Mage]

Dammit. Ga'ran was a good villain, too, until it was decided that she didn't need subtlety. Talk about going from your own character to gender swapped Manfred Von Karma.

Gotta admit, while I didn't mind her "second form" much, there was something about her "original form" that gave off a frightening vibe and the way she used the Royal We made her quite scary and threatening.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Water Mage

[blah the Prussian]

Gotta admit, while I didn't mind her "second form" much, there was something about her "original form" that gave off a frightening vibe and the way she used the Royal We made her quite scary and threatening.

Yeah, exactly. Her original look and mannerisms were subtle, and they gave her a distinct personality. This? Well...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m3mIb5R1VIo