I don't feel entirely satisfied with the current direction of FE

[Jedi]

As long as the Gameplay remains good, thats all that matters to me.

[Jotari]

Another thing to do with options is grinding. In conquest, correct me if I'm wrong, there's some forms of grinding disabled. This is to simulate the experiences of older fire emblem games where you couldn't grind at all...yet they also let you play the pay-to-win DLC that can negate pretty much any challenge the game throws at you...provided you grind long enough. This begs the question of why they even prevented some forms of grinding in the first place if they still let you do it in the end.

What I think would've been better is to make the decision every new save file to allow access to the world map and DLC. This would allow those who want a more classic experience have their needs met without compromising others who want to experience the DLC on their chosen path. Again, this isn't a massive issue but it'd be cool to see.

I don't believe anyone has clarified this point. The way Conquest prevents grinding isn't by locking off grinding based chapters. It's by simply not giving you exp when you do a non main story chapter. So you can't really use DLC to grind anything. You can use it to farm money and get certain skills but none of them break the game like over grinding would. Additionally a lot of the DLC in Fates doesn't even use your main game party, you get (in terms of stats) original characters to use for the duration of the chapter. You still get rewards for your save file but it doesn't actual make your party stronger even if you have exp turned on. So really Fates DLC cannot be used for grinding in Conquest (if you have no grinding turned on). It can make a life a little easier by giving you access to things like the Witch class and Point Blank but by no means should it be equated to standard grinding the likes of which is prevalent in some of the other games.

[Harvey]

um...isn't this thread a bit similar to the one I made here?

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=64731&hl=

I got nothing against this thread....its just that you can save the effort by posting it on a similar thread rather than recreating another thread that's the same as the one I've made.

[Dinar87]

um...isn't this thread a bit similar to the one I made here?

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=64731&hl=

I got nothing against this thread....its just that you can save the effort by posting it on a similar thread rather than recreating another thread that's the same as the one I've made.

No offense but your thread's poll was a bit all or nothing. I wanted to know in greater detail where people stand with the games and it seems most people are happy with the current direction, though they do dislike certain elements. Plus I wanted to vent a bit as well (which I guess I could've done on your thread).

I don't believe anyone has clarified this point. The way Conquest prevents grinding isn't by locking off grinding based chapters. It's by simply not giving you exp when you do a non main story chapter. So you can't really use DLC to grind anything. You can use it to farm money and get certain skills but none of them break the game like over grinding would. Additionally a lot of the DLC in Fates doesn't even use your main game party, you get (in terms of stats) original characters to use for the duration of the chapter. You still get rewards for your save file but it doesn't actual make your party stronger even if you have exp turned on. So really Fates DLC cannot be used for grinding in Conquest (if you have no grinding turned on). It can make a life a little easier by giving you access to things like the Witch class and Point Blank but by no means should it be equated to standard grinding the likes of which is prevalent in some of the other games.

That's pretty cool! I actually didn't know that. It's looking like at least the game play of fire emblem is as good as ever which is fantastic. If only we could say the same about the story, characters and fan service!

Edited November 5, 2016 by Dinar87

[Harvey]

No offense but your thread's poll was a bit all or nothing. I wanted to know in greater detail where people stand with the games and it seems most people are happy with the current direction, though they do dislike certain elements. Plus I wanted to vent a bit as well (which I guess I could've done on your thread).

Umm....its pretty much the same thing that's mentioned here. People like the current direction the series is taking while mentioning some of the dislikes of certain elements.

Again, not a big deal but you can save the effort into puting your concerns in my thread so all the doom and gloom stuff only happens in one thread and nowhere else. Its actually less depressing in doing so.

[Quintessence]

No offense but your thread's poll was a bit all or nothing. I wanted to know in greater detail where people stand with the games and it seems most people are happy with the current direction, though they do dislike certain elements. Plus I wanted to vent a bit as well (which I guess I could've done on your thread).

That's pretty cool! I actually didn't know that. It's looking like at least the game play of fire emblem is as good as ever which is fantastic. If only we could say the same about the story, characters and fan service!

There's actually an EXP DLC that grants exp in Conquest, so you definitely can grind in Conquest. Not the same with Birthright (where every DLC gives you exp as a normal chapter); although I don't know about Revelations because I didn't play it. Edited November 5, 2016 by Quintessence

[Dinar87]

There's actually an EXP DLC that grants exp in Conquest, so you definitely can grind in Conquest. Not the same with Birthright (where every DLC gives you exp as a normal chapter); although I don't know about Revelations because I didn't play it.

....well that sucks.

I'll admit, while awakening and fates were pretty ok, I'm VERY worried about the future of fire emblem. I'm worried that, since characters like camilla are incredibly popular, that fire emblem 15 will be filled to the brim with sexual fan service and jiggle physics! If it ever reaches that point, I'm be extremely disappointed and won't be sure whether I want to remain a fan anymore. I advise IS to allow for multiple suits for each class so there can be skimpy versions (to appease the otakus) and "prudish" versions to appease, well, "prudes". I just don't want fire emblem to turn into hunniepop-strategy edition! If it does...I won't be able to continue being a fan anymore.

The sad thing is, is that no matter how bad the stories and characters become, no matter how bad the fan service gets, as long as the game play is fun for most people IS will still be widely supported. It breaks my heart to see all these otaku-pleasing elements in a game series that was praised not only for its game play but also characters and stories.

[eclipse]

Grinding has been around since forever (see: arena/boss abuse). Fates just made it a lot harder to do so without paying extra. I think trying to shut down the lamer ways of grinding is a good thing, but I would've made that particular DLC free. Meh, what do I know.

While the core of Fire Emblem hasn't changed, everything else is open to debate/experimentation, and THAT is what I support. Things like art/story bug me, but aren't enough to deter me. I like Fire Emblem's gameplay, and consider the rest aesthetics (which can be conveniently turned off via the Start button or Options menu). As long as Fire Emblem is a fun game to play, I'll keep on playing.

[Harvey]

Grinding has been around since forever (see: arena/boss abuse). Fates just made it a lot harder to do so without paying extra. I think trying to shut down the lamer ways of grinding is a good thing, but I would've made that particular DLC free. Meh, what do I know.

While the core of Fire Emblem hasn't changed, everything else is open to debate/experimentation, and THAT is what I support. Things like art/story bug me, but aren't enough to deter me. I like Fire Emblem's gameplay, and consider the rest aesthetics (which can be conveniently turned off via the Start button or Options menu). As long as Fire Emblem is a fun game to play, I'll keep on playing.

This. I've played games like Binding Blade and Holy War and the games are fun in their own right. Actually, there's a lot of things that I like about Binding Blade like the Fog of war and its much simpler mechanics. I don't understand why IS decided to bring everything in Awakening when they could just re use the mechanics that are in Binding Blade only better.

Still doesn't make Awakening or Fates any less good though.

@Dinar87 I'm worried about FE in a different matter than you. FE isn't as big as Pokemon or even Mario and if one game flops hard, it may end up being dormant like Metroid and that's what really scares me. Its pretty easy for IS to end up like that unless FE manages to sell over 50 million copies worldwide.

But you might as well give up on IS/Nintendo making great stories because....well first of Nintendo's always about gameplay and the reason why Holy War story worked well was because of its mechanic love system which worked regardless.

Secondly, if they were to focus a whole lot on the story, then it could possibly end up a whole lot like Metroid Other M...that game had a weak plot and its gameplay is ruined because of its plot. So I wouldn't bet on Nintendo making a true story like that.

and lastly, no...Nintendo will never consider removing fanservice because that's what ended up making Fire Emblem what it is now...a major IP for Nintendo. But honestly, people need to get used to it. I don't mind it, infact..I like it a little as dirty as it sounds.

[Sire]

I'll just quote myself from a different topic...

I had a long post that I was going to type out and put here regarding my pros and cons of FE 7-14 (minus 12 since it was never localized), but then the editor decided to quit on me and I lost all of my progress... So, instead of that, I'll try to be more general instead.

Classic and Modern FE both have their ups and downs. The main points of contention of modern FE (Awakening and Fates) are the subpar story and the extreme amount of fanservice (My Room, Marriage + Kids, Unit Designs that show off panties or have boob windows, Character Designs like Nowi, Tharja, Ophelia, Camilla, and so on.) A minor point of contention is the inclusion of self-insert Avatars, which can improve or lessen the experience for players. (Yes, Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword did have an "Avatar", but I saw that inclusion was done fairly well as the Avatar mostly worked behind the scenes. When it had a story moment, it made sense, and it was cool to see characters talking to the "player".)

Gameplay wise, Modern FE is still all right, with Conquest having some of the most memorable gameplay of Fire Emblem with its varied objectives. Awakening introduced Pair Up, which is an interesting mechanic, and Fates refined the concept further and also allowed the enemy to use it. The music is still amazing with memorable tracks, and the modern artist does a good job of portraying characters (It is said that the designs are from the art director, the artist simply draws what is asked). Fates brings back some of the over the top animations which is nice to see. The Skill System is fun to play around with... Again, Modern FE is still good, but the story and anime fanservice is a bit too much for some of us veterans, and some of us fear that this trend will only get worse.

What I miss from the classic FE are the interesting support conversations, especially that from Sacred Stones which I believe may have the best Supports in the entire franchise. Not all character endings end up in marriage, one is a father & son ending, another is the old war veteran and the new recruit, and there is even the Male Guardian and the Princess, where the Princess is married off to someone else while the Guardian cries on how much she has grown. I much rather have a lower number of support conversations that are excellent in quality than a bunch of them that rely on gimmicks and cliches.

Also, I miss the lore. Sure, Fire Emblem may not always have a good story told in game and may overly rely on "Big Kingdom invades Small Peaceful Kingdom", but having interesting background lore about the world is amazing. Tellius, for example, has a bunch of different countries (Daein, Crimea, Bengion, Gallia), with a whole backstory on ancient heroes, the Great Flood, and the different Laguz tribes. Fates just has two countries with some minor factions mixed in that are never really expanded upon. Maybe Fates lore is so secret one will die if they talk about it.

Essentially, dial down the fanservice, make a good story, continue with the awesome gameplay of Conquest, keep the awesome music, and the next Fire Emblem should turn out fine. It's just that the anime fanservice (avatar, My Room, marriage + kids, character designs, etc) has been overbearing as of late.

Edit: I was going through my posts, and I think this sums up my thoughts fairly well. It was made back in March of this year.

"The fanbase will need to sort itself out between the old players and the influx of the new generation. I started off with the Sacred Stones and played every game released stateside since (including Blazing Sword), but in the words of Honest Game Trailers, I saw Fire Emblem transition from a "balls hard tactical game to a balls hard tactical game wrapped in an anime visual novel." I don't mind fanservice, and I get a kick out of the nonsense every now and then, but I am worried about how far they will go. The "My Room" models were nice and the dialogue added a little more to their character, but I could live without the petting and cooling them off. I'll take the swimsuits over that, there are some armor designs that are somehow more revealing and suggestive than a simple swimsuit.

I guess I suggest simply tread with caution. Swimsuits seems to be the easy way for fanservice, and that I can deal with. Having virtual characters proclaim their love to you and make suggestive remarks is when I start slowly backing away from my 3DS, saying "What did I get myself into?" That said, my daughter Kana is too adorable. I thought female Morgan was adorable, but Kana is another beast entirely. Please send help.

Overall, I think Fire Emblem has a good future ahead of itself. They still have the gameplay mechanics down, as demonstrated in Conquest, and they still have memorable characters (Arthur, Benny, Felicia, F!Kana, the trio, too many list...) I would like to see them improve on story some more and maybe tone down the fanservice a little bit, but otherwise, I'm still fairly happy with the series as a "veteran" player."

Now, to expand a little on fanservice (revealing designs) and conversations...

Classic FE did have some revealing designs, but it made sense for the character to have said designs. For example, Sonia was a femme fatale character who uses her charms to take over the Black Fang. Some female mages or myrmidons would have exposed legs, dancers are self explanatory, etc. The only real designs I remember being somewhat revealing is Nailah from Radiant Dawn and Malice from New Mystery, but they do it in a manner that extrudes confidence and being a bad*** instead of just being an eye magnet. Then there are also the shirtless men running around too, but when they did so, it made sense.

I would also love to see proper Base Conversations return, demonstrated in FE 9 & 10. It adds a lot more dialogue to side characters and can help flesh out their personality, the world, and offer insight on current story events. One off lines managing a shop, recruitment, death, or plain support conversations are not really enough to flesh out a character, so more would be appreciated. Heck, instead of children paralogues, have character paralogues! Imagine how much more character development and world building one may discover...

Edit: Looks like Sentinel Nephenee (battle model) in Radiant Dawn may be one of the first signs of armor going the panty route, not quite sure though.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Sire

[Troykv]

Classic FE did have some revealing designs, but it made sense for the character to have said designs. For example, Sonia was a femme fatale character who uses her charms to take over the Black Fang. Some female mages or myrmidons would have exposed legs, dancers are self explanatory, etc. The only real designs I remember being somewhat revealing is Nailah from Radiant Dawn and Malice from New Mystery, but they do it in a manner that extrudes confidence and being a bad*** instead of just being an eye magnet. Then there are also the shirtless men running around too, but when they did so, it made sense.

That is the kind of fanservice I like, the one that makes sense and/or makes the design more powerful.

I would also love to see proper Base Conversations return, demonstrated in FE 9 & 10. It adds a lot more dialogue to side characters and can help flesh out their personality, the world, and offer insight on current story events. One off lines managing a shop, recruitment, death, or plain support conversations are not really enough to flesh out a character, so more would be appreciated. Heck, instead of children paralogues, have character paralogues! Imagine how much more character development and world building one may discover...

Yes! I would love to see more extra character-driven content... But we also need the return of Game's Lore.

.Edit: Looks like Sentinel Nephenee (battle model) in Radiant Dawn may be one of the first signs of armor going the panty route, not quite sure though.

I perfectly fine with that kind of fanservice (I'm already used to see a lot of panty shot from a lot of animes and some video games... I won't negate it... I actually like it xD)... The problem is when this panty shots just doesn't make sense (like Camilla's Heavy and absurd armor).

Edited November 6, 2016 by Troykv

[Jave]

That is the kind of fanservice I like, the one that makes sense and/or makes the design more powerful.

I perfectly fine with that kind of fanservice (I'm already used to see a lot of panty shot from a lot of animes and some video games... I won't negate it... I actually like it xD)... The problem is when this panty shots just doesn't make sense (like Camilla's Heavy and absurd armor).

The funny thing is that, while there weren't as blunt as the fanservice designs in Fates, a common complaint about the Tellius games was how some of the models were pretty generous in how much leg they showed.

Sage Ilyana in FE9 was probably the worst offender.

[Magical Glace]

Isn't Ilyana's sage model just a palette swap of Calil's?

[Loki Laufeyson]

As long as the Gameplay remains good, thats all that matters to me.

pretty much.

The narrative is the only real beef i have with current FE. They just arent putting enough effort in the stories. Other than that, i honestly dont give a rat's ass about the rest. The gameplay has got to be good and the rest is just a freaking afterthought. Im one of the few who doesnt mind and actually enjoys the fanservice because its so evenly distributed.

The funny thing is that, while there weren't as blunt as the fanservice designs in Fates, a common complaint about the Tellius games was how some of the models were pretty generous in how much leg they showed.

Sage Ilyana in FE9 was probably the worst offender.

ha. that entire character is completely fanservice. She has no actual character and no basis for doing anything. Shes just a really pretty, yet really mindless girl whos hungry. She was so goddamn gimmicky, i think people forget about Ilyana when talking about gimmicky FE characters. (either that or nostalgia prevents them from realizing it.) Mia was basically the same way.

[Jotari]

There's actually an EXP DLC that grants exp in Conquest, so you definitely can grind in Conquest. Not the same with Birthright (where every DLC gives you exp as a normal chapter); although I don't know about Revelations because I didn't play it.

Oh really? Even when you have grinding turned off? I guess I just never played that one on Conquest. Sort of odd...Still though, I can see it as a good thing if there's some kind of Apotheosis equivalent coming which I assume there is (I haven't been paying attention to the upcoming DLC or even the ones released in the past few months. On European serve anyway so I'm bound to be behind the times regardless).

Edited November 6, 2016 by Jotari

[Quintessence]

Oh really? Even when you have grinding turned off? I guess I just never played that one on Conquest. Sort of odd...Still though, I can see it as a good thing if there's some kind of Apotheosis equivalent coming which I assume there is (I haven't been paying attention to the upcoming DLC or even the ones released in the past few months. On European serve anyway so I'm bound to be behind the times regardless).

Yes, the Boo Camp, one of the first DLC maps distributed. Also, I wasn't aware there's a turn off grind option ~

I pretty much agree with what Sire said, a precise, yet, detailed point.

Regarding fanservice, it's not inherently bad. Fanservice done correctly pleases the public and attracts more people to the content, while the one done in extreme generates a polarized public: one part that loves extremely the content, and the other that hates it because it makes no sense and is beyond what needed.

Edit: For instance, what bugs me with modern designs is that, man, female units are showing their underwear pretty much everywhere. Why can't they have an appropriate clothing or attire? Not that they have to be nuns or show mages like Sofiya, but one can even stuff with some good fanservice. For instance, Nino and Ilyana wear mini skirts which is sexy but still fine because they are girls that can wear it and they're not showing more than beautiful long legs and a slender figure. But man, Ophelia, Nyx, Orochi and Camilla are too much. Same with Tharja, although she's fine in her Mirage form.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Quintessence

[Dinar87]

So it seems that a lot of you are satisfied with the direction of the franchise because, as long as the game play is good, you won't mind a bit of fan service here and there. I also agree that fan service was handled better in older games as it was the exception not the norm. It'd be nice for IS to have a good story next time with the game play of conquest. I think that'd make a great FE game.

As for fan service being vital to the modern success to modern fire emblem...I strongly disagree. I think that the advertising combined with casual mode (so it wasn't one or the other) combined with stellar review scores, made awakening and fates sell extremely well. I highly doubt that all the sexual fan service is absolutely crucial to the success of the modern games. However, I can understand not wanting elements like fan service removed as you'd be worried that fire emblem wouldn't sell as well and as a result could get axed like metroid. In response to this, I'd like to point out that again, I don't think the fan service played a massive part in the success of the modern games and that, as long as nintendo doesn't axe franchises if they don't make all the money possible, Fire emblem would've and could be fine without such elements.

I think what I'm going to do is, while I'll continue to predict what I will/won't enjoy, I'll save my final opinion on fates until I actually have played it. I still talk about it though because I'm bored waiting for it and talking about it helps ease the wait.

I have another question for you guys though...how could the game play of fates be improved for next time?

Edited November 6, 2016 by Dinar87

[Gradivus.]

I have another question for you guys though...how could the game play of fates be improved for next time?

More playtesting. There are a lot of good concepts and good map designs in Fates, but in various cases (like BR midgame, CQ lategame and Rev in general) I have the feeling they weren't thorough enough at finding flaws and removing them.

[Jedi]

They also added too many gimmicks in general, Dragon Veins & Rev as a whole. Less of those would be great.

[Locke087]

Rebalancing weapons again IS, did a commendable job in trying to balance out the weapons for no durability, but it didn't really work, Knifes are a bit to OP, E weapons add annoyance rather than strategic depth, and forged iron/steel weapons break the whole system. But i'm a real man I have no illusions that IS is going to backpedal and bring back durability, so they to go to there rooms and think long and hard about how to nerf Forge (they were on to the right idea a duel Currency but they need to make that second Currency actually rare and hard to obtain), rebalance knives and fix E weapon and the poor weapon EX system.

Keep fixing skills in Fates IS has gone a long way in making skills more skill oriented, so I need to keep going down this path and add more reliable predictable skills that actually add strategic depth. There's still some outliers skills that do not add strategic depth or are half baked in the game.

Personal skills are a great idea with horrible execution IS next time you do this don't waste your time coding that something that has little to no in game effect make the skills matter.

And since the next ones likely going to be on Console bring in Radiant Dawn's height mechanics. Also I'm weird and I unironically want Fog of War back. Also I'd like a new mechanic that's not pair up that adds to the gameplay because I like each generational switch of Fire Emblem to feel different, nothing against pair up it's a good mechanic I just think it should stay unique to the Awakening/Fates though.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Locke087

[Harvey]

They also added too many gimmicks in general, Dragon Veins & Rev as a whole. Less of those would be great.

Dragon Veins are actually optional for the most part. And even then, they are a huge blessing especially in Conquest. I'm the opposite as I would want them to come back again because it adds the strategy further.

[Jedi]

Dragon Veins are actually optional for the most part. And even then, they are a huge blessing especially in Conquest. I'm the opposite as I would want them to come back again because it adds the strategy further.

Dragon Veins could have been replicated with most any older FE thing, like snags or traps, instead they decided to make the nobles all special little snowflakes for gimmicky little optional things that may or may not be good for the map.

I personally see them as a pointless addition.

[NekoKnight]

Rebalancing weapons again IS, did a commendable job in trying to balance out the weapons for no durability, but it didn't really work, Knifes are a bit to OP, E weapons add annoyance rather than strategic depth, and forged iron/steel weapons break the whole system. But i'm a real man I have no illusions that IS is going to backpedal and bring back durability, so they to go to there rooms and think long and hard about how to nerf Forge (they were on to the right idea a duel Currency but they need to make that second Currency actually rare and hard to obtain), rebalance knives and fix E weapon and the poor weapon EX system.

Personal skills are a great idea with horrible execution IS next time you do this don't waste your time coding that something that has little to no in game effect make the skills matter.

And since the next ones likely going to be on Console bring in Radiant Dawn's height mechanics. Also I'm weird and I ironically want Fog of War back. Also I'd like a new mechanic that's not pair up that adds to the gameplay because I like each generational switch of Fire Emblem to feel different, nothing against pair up it's a good mechanic I just think it should stay unique to the Awakening/Fates though.

Weapons: Bronze weapons could be made a whole lot better by removing that stupid "no critical/no skill proc" trait. Personally I'd rather just see E rank removed entirely, or at least make all promoted classes have a minimum of D rank in applicable weapons. For the forging issue, I'd get rid of the "combine two of the same weapon" mechanic and just have you alter existing weapons. The resources could still be from melting down unused weapons, but instead the resource could be from any weapon. Let's say you could get rid of those iron axes you don't need to buff your steel sword.

Personal skills: Personal skills should create a unique niche for that character, something that can be exploited to maximize their potential. Beruka's personal skill is what I'd describe as the perfect type, something that you can activate at will and lets her perform better in a certain play style. Selena's is the worst kind, something that will rarely activate, can't be controlled and will have minimal effect.

Pair-up: Now that Fates has made so many improvements on the mechanic, I would be happy to see pair-up for at least another game. It's good for the games to innovate but it would be a waste, in my opinion, to toss out all the progress they made on it after two games.

Dragon Veins could have been replicated with most any older FE thing, like snags or traps, instead they decided to make the nobles all special little snowflakes for gimmicky little optional things that may or may not be good for the map.

I personally see them as a pointless addition.

I describe them as a decent idea but in need of a little refinement. Some DVs are fairly pointless, only helping the player and just an extra condition of playing the map efficiently. Others do require strategic timing (such as the wind level in Conquest) or can be exploited by the enemy to make your life harder (the infamous C10).

I agree on the special-snowflake issue however.

[eclipse]

A little more refinement regarding enemy skill/placement would do it. Some of the weapon effects/stats could be easily tweaked (because Dual weapons are seriously OP, while WTF is up with the A-rank weapons).

[Jotari]

E ranked weapons should stay, but their purpose should be for levelling weapon ranks. They should be weak but give more wexp per hit than iron weapons and maybe even steel weapons. This would take a lot of pain out of levelling weapon ranks, making it simply something you need to shift your focus to accomplish rather than a grindfest.