And Fates Worst Character Award Goes To...

[RedEyedDrake]

@Azure:

I'll have to disagree with you on the second paragraph for the following reasons:

1. This much more severe then just "being a jerk".

2. As I said before, "blaming a toddler for being insensitive". One is being deliberate while the other is a mindbroken person. Just because the one's actions are worse doesn't instantly mean that said person deserves to be more hated for it. And, once again, said "deliberate" person has another person who went through circumstances that are either comparable or worse and yet acts better anyway. Which just makes him come of as even worse by comparison. Or that is how I see it anyway. As in, he has a choice about it but chooses to do what he does anyway. Meanwhile, one of the women I just brought up doesn't do that sort of thing at all while the other doesn't have true, honest-to-goodness agency in the matter.

Edited January 21, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[NekoKnight]

Jakob and Niles got a fair share of flak back in the day, but they aren't quite as bad as Azama or Pieri. Jakob is abrasive and rude sometimes but he's not the 100% asshole Azama is. Niles is lewd and purposely unnerves people (his sadism was toned down in the localization) but he's not the literal serial killer that Pieri is.

@RedEyedDrake Even if you took the stance that the mentally disturbed are innocent of their crimes (something the law doesn't agree with), it would still be in the interest of everyone to either isolate her or put her down. I feel worse for the people she has killed, not for the murderer. 

[RedEyedDrake]

I'm not saying that she is innocent. I'm saying that it is pointless to hate the person themselves over it and that the person themselves doesn't deserve to be hated. They only deserve for us to feel sorry for the state that they wounded up in. Especially when it isn't trough their own actions and/or faults. And when I say to "feel sorry for them" I don't mean that via action but on an emotional level instead. I'm not annoyed but people wanting for her to be restrained. I'm annoyed by people who think that she is a deliberately malicious person, emphasis on the "deliberate" part, when that is the one thing she is not.

So no. I'm not approving her actions but she is very much a victim of her father's and the one butler's actions. And she became one at a very young age with no say of her own in the matter, too. She isn't the sort of psycho you revile but the sort that comes of as tragic. This is the sort of case where you can empathize with a person even though you don't approve of their actions in the slightest.

Edited January 21, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[NekoKnight]

I guess I don't share your sympathy for psychopaths. Lots of people are born without the ability to feel empathy or lose it because of emotional trauma, and yet we still hold them accountable for their actions. "I kill people because I'm full of hate" and "I kill people because I'm emotionally stunted" really makes no difference, especially to the victims.

[RedEyedDrake]

There is a difference between understanding why someone would behave the way they do and approving of a given way of behavior. Please don't mix the two up.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

9 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Jakob vs. Azama is a conflict I have no investment in because I don't really like either of them, but I and other people will pick Jakob if given the choice because he can actually act like a decent human being to people who aren't Kamui on occasion, while Azama is 99% jerk and 1% not (and even that 1% is debatable). Unless there's a lot of people excusing Jakob for his actual jerk moments that I'm missing, which is always a possibility.

As for Niles vs. Peri, another conflict I don't really have an investment in because I dislike both sides...I'm pretty sure in most people's books, sadistic jerk vs. gleefully psychotic actual serial killer will always end in favor of the jerk, especially if he does have some depth to him like Niles does.

I get where you're coming from. Fandom double standards are a frustrating thing to deal with, but it kind of loses its double standard status when the side on the receiving end of fandom scorn is demonstrably worse than the other (except when fandom absolves one side completely of all their wrongdoing, but that's always a problem). 

Azama is not an asshole to everyone either (even if less than Jakob), Jakob has shown to be one of the most abusive parents of the 3DS games (and he is petty with his son to the point of being silly), and Niles and Peri have both the same amount of backstory and depth. If Niles looked ugly and was not romanceable by the Male Avatar, he would be getting much more hate than he does.
I'm not saying people should not dislike Peri and Azama (I can see why they would), but that it's silly how if they do they do not dislike also Jakob and Niles. Niles especially gets praised for being such a deep character when he is simply on par with other Nohrians (they usually have a rather detailed backstory for a FE character with some dark quirk thrown in), so honestly not that different in depth from Peri. I'd say Niles might even be worse than her because he understands that what he does is wrong and twisted, and that excites him (and very possibly sexually), while Peri is unaware that her actions are wrong. I'm just tired of seeing a character like Peri be brought down all the time when Henry and Niles are on the same boat, in the end, but they are among the most popular guys in their respective games. Not to mention all the defense I've seen for Niles and Henry being different from Peri did not really hold a candle in the end.

8 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I've never really understood why Jakob receives so much hate. Was he made ruder from the Japanese version to the English one? I always just found his snarkiness funny. Occasionally I'd go "lol that's fucked up Jakob", then I just don't think much about it.

I don't hate Jakob, I think he is ok, but as I said before he has a petty rivalry with his son and is rather abusive towards him, being too harsh and jealous that he might surpass him as a butler. Also if Corrin is his mother it just becomes worse, really.

[Just call me AL]

I'm feeling like I'm one of the few who can tolerate Azama. I mean, sure. He is a jerk. But there are instances where I find him funny. He kinda reminds me of Discord or Q in that regard.

[OpheliaNohrPrincess]

I 100% completely politely disagree.......she's one of my favorite girls and Waifus besides Ophelia, Azura, Selkie and Charlotte to me its Reina had potential lacking supports and she's just there in Revelations same for Shura he falls under this as well as Azama, Niles and Hisame(bland, generic and boring) for me.

Edited January 21, 2017 by OpheliaNohrPrincess

[eclipse]

Shura is a goddamn wasted opportunity, just like a bunch of other things in the game.  Currently rewriting Conquest for giggles, and he's one of those characters that runs away with the story (though he has to fight with Velouria for "most interesting").

[RedRob]

11 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

@RedEyedDrake Even if you took the stance that the mentally disturbed are innocent of their crimes (something the law doesn't agree with),

Apparently you never heard of the insanity defense. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html

And before you point out it rarely works, the fact that it exists as an option implies the law agrees with it to some extent.

And Drake isn't trying to say she's innocent but more that she's an example of Cry for the Devil,    where one's tragic past isn't meant to excuse the tragedies one caused, but to heighten that feeling of tragedy by showing that the perpetrator themselves are, in a way, a victim too. Granted, this doesn't fit her exactly, but it's the closest trope I could find.

 

Honestly, the problem with Peri is more how her insanity is played for laughs, instead of drama like it should be.

 

[NekoKnight]

3 hours ago, RedRob said:

Apparently you never heard of the insanity defense. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html

And before you point out it rarely works, the fact that it exists as an option implies the law agrees with it to some extent.

Here's a quote from that page:

Quote

• What happens to a mentally ill defendant who is acquitted of a violent crime?

According to the American Psychiatric Association, studies show that defendants acquitted by reason of insanity are likely to spend as much or more time confined in a psychiatric institution as they would have if convicted and sentenced to jail or prison for the same crime

"Innocent" doesn't mean you go free after committing violent crime. Society still deems you a threat regardless of your lack of maliciousness. To quote Cersei of all people, "A disease doesn't decide to kill you, all the same you cut it out before it does." .

3 hours ago, RedRob said:

And Drake isn't trying to say she's innocent but more that she's an example of Cry for the Devil,    where one's tragic past isn't meant to excuse the tragedies one caused, but to heighten that feeling of tragedy by showing that the perpetrator themselves are, in a way, a victim too. Granted, this doesn't fit her exactly, but it's the closest trope I could find.

Honestly, the problem with Peri is more how her insanity is played for laughs, instead of drama like it should be.

The second paragraph explains why Cry for the Devil doesn't work. Unlike other examples of this trope, Pieri's actions are not played for drama. How can I feel sorry for Pieri when "tragedy" is never the feeling the story wants to convey for her? Did you read any of her supports and take away that we're supposed to feel pity for her?

Edited January 21, 2017 by NekoKnight

[RedRob]

36 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Here's a quote from that page:

"Innocent" doesn't mean you go free after committing violent crime. Society still deems you a threat regardless of your lack of maliciousness. To quote Cersei of all people, "A disease doesn't decide to kill you, all the same you cut it out before it does." .

 

I was arguing more against your statement that the law doesn't view the mentally disturbed as innocent than anything else with that link.

 

39 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

The second paragraph explains why Cry for the Devil doesn't work. Unlike other examples of this trope, Pieri's actions are not played for drama. How can I feel sorry for Pieri when "tragedy" is never the feeling the story wants to convey for her? Did you read any of her supports and take away that we're supposed to feel pity for her?

Which I acknowledged, and said it was the closest I could find. I was just trying to clarify Drake's view on her, though maybe using a trope wasn't the best way to do so.

[NekoKnight]

1 minute ago, RedRob said:

I was arguing more against your statement that the law doesn't view the mentally disturbed as innocent than anything else with that link.

Which I acknowledged, and said it was the closest I could find. I was just trying to clarify Drake's view on her, though maybe using a trope wasn't the best way to do so.

I think we both understand her equally and it's not beyond my comprehension that Pieri is not inherently malicious. My opinion is that the tone of the writing does not support the conclusion that we ought to feel sorry for her.

[RedRob]

2 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I think we both understand her equally and it's not beyond my comprehension that Pieri is not inherently malicious. My opinion is that the tone of the writing does not support the conclusion that we ought to feel sorry for her.

Fair enough.

[Loki Laufeyson]

4 hours ago, RedRob said:

Honestly, the problem with Peri is more how her insanity is played for laughs, instead of drama like it should be.

 

Yeah, which is why she should never be viewed as 'edgy", "dark", or gritty. Because all of this is played too much in the lighthearted sense and thus the intention isnt edginess or even tragedy, but shits and giggles. We arent supposed to take her seriously. That makes me a bit sad cuz theres a hella interesting character potential there and part of the reason i like her. Its just disappointing shes just a "murder doll" for the shiggles.

[Slyfox]

Here's my two cents.

Niles is a jerk, sometimes he can be quite cruel and he fully knows it. He intends on causing emotional pain, and loves it. Backstory notwithstanding, his character could be interpreted as more evil than Peri.

Peri has no sense of right and wrong, due to trauma, upbringing and being nobility. She really has the mentality of a small child (children can still do evil, btw). I can actually understand her, feel sorry for her. However, despite her not understanding the consequences of her actions and not being as morally corrupt as Niles, her actions are by far the worst of the two.

Intentions can only go so far, and you need to stop once said intentions start harming others. Basically, I consider Niles a worse human being (I actually like Niles, before anyone burns me at the stake), but far less harmful. Peri may have "better character", but her actions are devastating.

I don't think anyone arguing in this thread is completely right or wrong here.

 

Anyway, Peri does have bad supports. As previously mentioned by others, killing people is played for laughs and very few characters try to correct her. It does stick out like a sore thumb. That, however, is a big shame..

[NekoKnight]

Pieri would fit comfortably in a gag series where violence is just exaggerated for comedy. She'd fit in a series that treats her behavior with the gravity it deserves. But she doesn't fit in Fates, where we're supposed to say "What a goofball!" when she enjoys killing people and "What a monster!" when Hans enjoys killing people. This isn't the only time when Fates wants to have its cake and eat it too.

[RedEyedDrake]

See, here's the thing. Personally, "writer intent" is something that I don't consider all that important. Especially when it comes to badly written works. For example, an apocalypse doesn't become any less of an in-universe disaster for me just because it is a parody oriented Sugar Apocalypse.

Edited January 22, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[ruruo]

It's not Camilla's fault. She's just drawn that way x'D I think she's great, and liked her a lot more than I thought I would. I always reclass her to Wyvern Lord asap too ;) 

Unit 

Takumi. And it's a really childish reason - I always feel like I'm forced to use him as the main Sniper because of Fujin Yumi, Dragon Veins and his personal skill >->;; F-- you Takumi honestly and truly. I can't even bench him out of spite because I love that bow too much. If I could, I'd give Fujin Yumi to Mozu. 

Leo. I really wanted to like him because of all the good things said about him. Maybe I've just been unlucky with RNG, or my play style isn't that good with DKs, but he always ends up falling short. I can't just ignore and bench him like Nyx since he's so central, so I want him on the team, but sometimes he ends up needing more babying than Elise >->. So I guess I dislike him a lot because out of all of the supposedly reliable units, he's the worst.   

Portrayal

Corrin. Definitely one of the worst MUs, I feel sorry for the other characters sucked into this Mary Sue blackhole that is Corrin. I can't get over how (s)he can be so unrealistically naive, yet still have the world spinning around the choices they make. I just can't take Corrin seriously. 

Garon. eeeeh.... He's such a wasted oppertunity. Story-wise he's just the mandatory evil king. I wish they delved more into his relationship with Xander, and how his change impacted the Nohrian family. I could have been such a sad and tragic story but nope. 

[DragonFlames]

20 hours ago, komasa said:

It's not Camilla's fault. She's just drawn that way x'D I think she's great, and liked her a lot more than I thought I would. I always reclass her to Wyvern Lord asap too ;) 

Unit 

Takumi. And it's a really childish reason - I always feel like I'm forced to use him as the main Sniper because of Fujin Yumi, Dragon Veins and his personal skill >->;; F-- you Takumi honestly and truly. I can't even bench him out of spite because I love that bow too much. If I could, I'd give Fujin Yumi to Mozu. 

Leo. I really wanted to like him because of all the good things said about him. Maybe I've just been unlucky with RNG, or my play style isn't that good with DKs, but he always ends up falling short. I can't just ignore and bench him like Nyx since he's so central, so I want him on the team, but sometimes he ends up needing more babying than Elise >->. So I guess I dislike him a lot because out of all of the supposedly reliable units, he's the worst.  

THANK YOU! I KNEW I wasn't alone in my views! Thank you truly, good lady!

Even a chronic Takumi hater like me has to admit that unit-wise, the dude is pretty much unmatched as a Sniper precisely BECAUSE of the Fujin Yumi... which pisses me off, too. I still use Mozu over him despite that, because my hatred for the dude is just THAT strong. He's also the sole reason why I haven't played Hoshido in a while, despite that side having my 'waifu' Hana in it.

On the topic of Leo, I agree 100%. His weapon isn't worth it, honestly. Get Elise to level 20 and promote ASAP or simply get Ophelia for maximum mage goodness.

On the topic of Camilla, I don't necessarily HATE her, but you can read more on why I personally don't like her on my post in this topic. #shamelessselfpromotionftw

[ruruo]

lol I'll take the bait messere 

On 1/11/2017 at 5:34 PM, DragonFlames said:

Camilla - This is less about her personality, which I actually think is justified by a (barely) explored backstory, but more about her character design. She's 'too' fanservice-y. Now, I don't mind fanservice, far from it, but when a game that's not usually about that kind of stuff is THIS in your face about it, it gets annoying. I mean, at least with Hilda's ridiculous outfit in Stella Glow, you forget to notice after the second time you see her, but with Camilla, whose *cough* assets are the focus of any cutscene she's in, it feels like she's only there because of them, if you catch my drift.

Personality-wise, I do find Camilla refreshing, maybe it might be that I haven't come across her character type that much, but I do like how she can be so doting, yet so twisted at the same time. Default costume-wise, agreed, Camilla is way over the top. but at the very very least, I think it suits her characterization. In context with the art style in Fates, I feel like I can let it pass. I tend to notice her beautiful hair more than "them" anyway x'D

Arguably, Kagero is worse than Camilla in the fanservice department. I can think of no justification for them. Sure, I get that it's practically mandatory for all ninja in Hoshido to have amazing cleavage, but does it really need to be overblown to the point of gag boobs?? She could have had a perfectly nice cleavage with normal sized ones but noooo >->;;

And let's not get started with jiggle physics and some character models in Fates. I feel like there will always be some controversy with the fanservice in FE because of Awakening and Fates. A pity, since it used to be one of the few games series that had great female armour. Echoes looks as if it's more dialed down, I really like what art has been released so far.  Let's keep our fingers crossed. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by komasa

[Dunal]

Not sure how people can say Azama is a "bad character". An asshole? Definitely. Badly written? ...No? One of the better written characters, if anything.

'Worst' character indicates they're written badly, are inconsistent with their motives and actions or forces other characters to break their character to make interactions work. Peri is a prime example of this. Camilla as well (concept of her character is certainly interesting-- execution... not so much). 

[RedRob]

So I'm just going to bring up a character that while isn't the worst character in game, is one I dislike that hasn't been covered before. Reina. She's like the Hoshidian version of Hans or Peri. She's a sadist who loves to hear the cries of her enemies, yet was somehow retainer to Emmeryn 2.0. She's just out of place compared to the Hoshidians that the game likes to portray as having the higher moral ground, and unlike the similar Peri, the game doesn't even try to explain why she's like that. At least Niles and Peri have the excuse of a crappy childhood for their behavior.

[NekoKnight]

9 hours ago, DLuna said:

Not sure how people can say Azama is a "bad character". An asshole? Definitely. Badly written? ...No? One of the better written characters, if anything.

'Worst' character indicates they're written badly, are inconsistent with their motives and actions or forces other characters to break their character to make interactions work. Peri is a prime example of this. Camilla as well (concept of her character is certainly interesting-- execution... not so much). 

Part of bad writing can be how the story treats them. Shinon can be abrasive but the other characters don't just shrug their shoulders and accept that. Azama is just an asshole that people keep around and potentially fall in love with for some reason. 

53 minutes ago, RedRob said:

So I'm just going to bring up a character that while isn't the worst character in game, is one I dislike that hasn't been covered before. Reina. She's like the Hoshidian version of Hans or Peri. She's a sadist who loves to hear the cries of her enemies, yet was somehow retainer to Emmeryn 2.0. She's just out of place compared to the Hoshidians that the game likes to portray as having the higher moral ground, and unlike the similar Peri, the game doesn't even try to explain why she's like that. At least Niles and Peri have the excuse of a crappy childhood for their behavior.

I think IS just likes their contrasting tropes. Pieri is cute and childish but a psycho, Reina is a caring, motherly type, but a sadist on the battlefield.

[Wolfen09]

Unit: Felicia/Arthur...  Felicia suffers from jiegan syndrome and just eats up exp early on, arthur's skill growth sucks so he cant hit jack

Personality:  Felicia/Takumi....  I dont know, Felicia just annoys the crap out of me and i only use her as a spare baby maker if i need one...  Takumi, just no...  STFU and go sit in the corner you jealous turd...

Design:  Peri....  I dont mind peri, shes usually halfway decent for me...  But that hair is by far the worst design choice, everyone else has character designs that all kind of conform to a sort of normal pattern color and cut wise... Peri, just got thrown out in left field and was left there to rot... (the only other characters who comes close to hair that doesnt fit are elise and charlotte... not a big fan of the drills)