And Fates Worst Character Award Goes To...

[twistedxgrace]

They probably could have made some interesting social commentary if she was forced into a hetero-normative role because of the society she lives in but she's just another anime trope. I just can't fathom why IS would design a character who is practically a lesbian (and the localization ramps this up even more) for a game that insists on pairing almost everyone in heterosexual relationships. If it weren't for children and eugenics, I'm sure IS would have more room to explore non-standard relationships.

Because she wasn't written as a lesbian to begin with? She is not in love with girls, per say, not their personalities, but their looks/aesthetics. It is not uncommon in Eastern cultures for people of the same gender to admire each other for their looks without being homosexual, and Soleil is an extreme of this. She loves to look at girls but (in the Japanese version at least) is also fully willing to actually fall in love with a man. This is her trope, and it is not as controversial in Japan.

[Thane]

I think it boils down to IntSys not realizing the implications of what they wrote, and so they way they present it in game is...questionable.

I was thinking it would be more along the lines of something like "...a charade" or "...a gilded cage." But I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Having finally gone back and reviewed the scripts for the chapters where you fight Flora, the whole situation is only hinted at in that one ambiguous conversation in Conquest and not brought up at all in Birthright. This is what I get for being lazy.

Female Kamui does have a different support with Flora, at least in the English version, but it similarly does not address anything about Flora's issues. Actually, thinking about it now, there is a weird dissonance between Flora and Felicia and how they're written. It's almost like the writers almost completely forgot about the whole thing when it came time to write Felicia, given that it only has a token mention in one support and nowhere else, even though it's a pretty important part of Flora's character. It makes me wonder if perhaps Flora was created later and they just didn't bother changing Felicia's supports/story role to match, or perhaps Flora and Felicia weren't originally related and were only made sisters at the last minute.

Don't worry, you're not coming off as snarky or rude at all. Really, the only reason I don't agree is that there's just not enough focus or insight into Felicia's feelings on the matter, and one support is not enough for me to definitively say that Felicia has Stockholm Syndrome. Flora, on the other hand...

I'm sorry my friend, but I think we just have to agree to disagree, because I find this theory has very little to stand on.

We do, however, agree that it's a waste of a very interesting subplot. Hell, Flora's by far one of my favorite characters in Fates just because of her past and how it makes her act, which stands in such stark contrast to Felicia, for whom it isn't even important.

[Loki Laufeyson]

The worst for me is either Setsuna or Azama. Azama has utility as a healer and is ok at combat when reclassed but hes outclassed by other guys. His personality is bullshit gasbag mansplaining rubbish and its too awful to stomach that. Setsuna is really useless, has zero insight, and doesnt do anything unit-wise thats worth a damn. Hinoka, your squad is fecal matter.

[NekoKnight]

Because she wasn't written as a lesbian to begin with? She is not in love with girls, per say, not their personalities, but their looks/aesthetics. It is not uncommon in Eastern cultures for people of the same gender to admire each other for their looks without being homosexual, and Soleil is an extreme of this. She loves to look at girls but (in the Japanese version at least) is also fully willing to actually fall in love with a man. This is her trope, and it is not as controversial in Japan.

Yes, but when you take admiration to such an extreme degree, it becomes disingenuous to say "She's totally straight, guys". If I made it my business to constantly talk about, stalk and grope other men, it would certainly give people good cause to think that I'm gay (and probably have deep psychological issues) but when Soleil does it, it's just her 'quirk'.

As far as her falling in love with men (mostly suggested by the super dubious S supports that always make people fall in love?), yeah I can see her making the exception to men she really connects with but again, something is wrong when she doesn't have a single pairing of the orientation she professes so loudly to. At best she "grew out of loving women", and at worst she was always a fake lesbian/bisexual. Neither of those say good things about her portrayal.

And now I've already talked too much about Soleil, more than I ever wanted to in a single year.

Edited January 14, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Thinks Their Own Way]

Hana's victim blaming of Corrin in their supports so rubbed me the wrong way (Peri and Camilla don't bother me in the slightest but Hana does) and none of her other supports made me feel bad for disliking her in the first place. At least she's a decent Samurai/Swordmaster on Birthright (Revelations loves screwing her strength for me).

[Just call me AL]

On 2017年1月8日 at 7:19 PM, vanguard333 said:

I'll start with unit. Unit: there are a few bad ones, but I think the worst is Gunter. Overleveled with bad stats in chapters 2 and 3, unavailable afterwards in Birthright (so wasted experience, and give all his items to Corrin if you can), underleveled with bad stats and bad growths when you get him back in Conquest, and in Revelations he is the most Jagen Jagen in the history of Jagens since the original Jagen. He cannot even support anyone, not even Corrin, in Revelations. He is utterly useless.

Fun fact: The original Jagen can be used all the way to Endgame in his games. Which is more than can be said for Gunter. If anything, Gunter's more of an Oifey on Revelations.

[nyainou]

Portrayal wise, I really hate Peri. Edgy character was done right with Henry; he was still likable, and not overbearing, or embarrassing. I can't stand the sight of Peri, and all of her lines are horrendous. Can you imagine somebody introducing themselves to you the way Peri does? 
 

Quote

I'm Peri! P for pulverize, E for eviscerate, R for ruin, and I for impale! Kee hee!

Also, design-wise.. She's kind of an eyesore. The blue --> pink gradient hair is so.. eh. The styling of her pigtails is too much. Also, the heterochromia... eugh. I love Kozaki's designs, but this one was really a huge miss for me. 

Keep in mind, I have nothing against "dark" characters. In fact, they're one of my favorite archetypes. And of course, everything I just said is super subjective.. but Peri just doesn't do it for me.

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Fun fact: The original Jagen can be used all the way to Endgame in his games. Which is more than can be said for Gunter. If anything, Gunter's more of an Oifey on Revelations.

I thought Gunter (outside of being a pair-up bot) was underwhelming even in his opening chapter. Is there an archetype for bad growths, bad bases?

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Yes, that archetype is called a SHITTY UNIT. In all seriousness though right now I cannot think of an unit like Gunther but I would not say he is bad at the beginning, especially with his skill.

Anyway, all the units I dislike as characters are great in gameplay. Camilla and Corrin are pivotal if you do not want to suffer in Conquest. I also an not fond of Hinoka, Ryoma and probably even Kaze, but they're still all excellent and I soloed the Birthright endgame chapters with Ryoma lol.

Thinking about it, I dislike Hayato a lot, but I heard he is good in Rev.

[TsundereBread]

Worst, unit wise for me is Kana. My Kana's were all weak, could barely do any damage to enemies. Potrayal wise, Corrin. I can't really say anything other than that I thought he/she was boring as a character.

[Just call me AL]

7 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I thought Gunter (outside of being a pair-up bot) was underwhelming even in his opening chapter. Is there an archetype for bad growths, bad bases?

Gunter's bases are fine for what they do. It's just that he's not very long-term. On Conquest, he's not any kind of Jagen because he joins at a point where he outlived his usefulness before he even gets to work, being rendered obsolete by Silas and Xander. On Revelations, I mentioned that he's more of an Oifey there because he ends up falling behind your other units come midgame. Despite having good growths, Oifey does fall behind in his own game arguably quicker than Jagen does in his. And that's despite the latter's infamy for bad growths. For this reason, some people feel that "Oifey" and "Pure Jagen" are misdefined, and some of the "Jagens" are mislabeled. Under the definitions such people use, Seth for instance would be classified as a "Pure Jagen", because of his inability to "fall behind" throughout his game.

[Mackc2]

It is a close three way tie for me between Peri for her terrible personality that is not okay, and secondly because she basically creates plot holes and get treated by other characters like a bloody Mary Sue.

Speaking of which we have corn cob one of the most irritating character who partially suffers from the badly written story (such as the CQ moping or the fact that he has bonded with the hoshidan royals so closely despite literally knowing them for a day.) and partial from being a total mary sue who is too easily forgiven for everything and partially for being a bad avatar and main character because his relation to the conflict make and the heroic personality make it impossible to see him as the player where the blank slate character just drags the story. They really should have been more like robin, a side character who had some importance but was mostly a blank slate with a little bit of dorky charm.

The last one is Camilla but I have nothing to say about her that hasn't already been said

[RedEyedDrake]

Oh look, its another "its ok when X does it" OP and thread.

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

Oh look, its another "its ok when X does it" OP and thread.

You have one post to clarify this, because this goes beyond the thread straight to OP, and that is NOT okay.

If I see you on here later, with no answer to this, I'll assume you're trolling, and act accordingly.

[Res]

10 hours ago, CrimeanRoyalKnight said:

Thinking about it, I dislike Hayato a lot, but I heard he is good in Rev.

He has been for me! Rhajat's helped in previous games a lot, too. 

[RedEyedDrake]

@eclipse:

My point is that I'm sick of the same old song and dance. The constant condemnation of a given set of characters while having some who display some really horrible behavior being praised as some of the best.

I would have elaborated about how people are too caught up in the things that the game tells them in a given moment while ignoring the implications that arise, if they even realize that said implications exist at all. But I decided to not do it because I'm well aware that I'd be talking to a wall. Hence my kicking at a proverbial 'wall' out of frustration. Not to mention that this sort of topic has been brought up since Fates was revealed in Japan. The very fact that the vast majority don't stop to think about such things in greater depth really grinds my gears.

For example. I'm sick of people treating Peri like some horrible person that needs to be put down instead of the mentally broken and scarred person that she is who is probably only still alive because Xander's appropriate channeling of her behavior prevents her from pissing off the wrong people. Yes, her actions are horrid. But actually blaming her for them is like blaming a toddler for insensitive behavior.

I'm also sick how Niles gets away with his deliberate and spiteful sadism and/or trying to get under people's skin for a genuinely malicious sort of 'fun' just because he is bisexual. Honestly, I can't see him getting this much leeway if he weren't a homosexual marriage option but behaved the same as he does now and yet I've yet to see any forum goers call him out in his behavior. Especially when we have  Beruka, who suffered through comparable if not worse circumstances but still holds herself to a standard that is higher than lashing out in one way or another despite her own issues, be present on the same side as him. I get the idea of not outright despising him to the point of wishing death upon him but actually praising him? Really?

In summary, I'm just sick of the shortsightedness and the repetition of the same complaints over and over when they are either about something that isn't even part of the character in question's actual 'character', as in the sort of person they are, or when they are just another example of failing to take everything, or at the very least to take more, into account and instead responding only to what you are being told and/or something that is only seen on a surface level instead of stopping to think about it on a deeper level. This is a recurring trend in the vast majority of forums about this game, if not every single one of them, and it drives me up the wall. I mean, this like the sort of behavior where someone who doesn't stop to think about what they have seen or heard so far and/or someone who doesn't read item descriptions and other such bits of information complaining that "Dark Souls has no plot".

But no, you're right. The fault is my own for expecting a higher degree of objectivity. Not even trying to be passive-aggressive here, it really is a pointless gesture for me to do. Its just that it is in human nature to hope for better things no matter what and I keep falling for the same trap. I just never posted in such a blatant manner about it before.

Edited January 21, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[eclipse]

36 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

@eclipse:

My point is that I'm sick of the same old song and dance. The constant condemnation of a given set of characters while having some who display some really horrible behavior being praised as some of the best.

I would have elaborated about how people are too caught up in the things that the game tells them in a given moment while ignoring the implications that arise, if they even realize that said implications exist at all. But I decided to not do it because I'm well aware that I'd be talking to a wall. Hence my kicking at a proverbial 'wall' out of frustration. Not to mention that this sort of topic has been brought up since Fates was revealed in Japan. The very fact that the vast majority don't stop to think about such things in greater depth really grinds my gears.

For example. I'm sick of people treating Peri like some horrible person that needs to be put down instead of the mentally broken and scarred person that she is who is probably only still alive because Xander's appropriate channeling of her behavior prevents her from pissing off the wrong people. Yes, her actions are horrid. But actually blaming her for them is like blaming a toddler for insensitive behavior.

I'm also sick how Niles gets away with his deliberate and spiteful sadism and/or trying to get under people's skin for a genuinely malicious sort of 'fun' just because he is bisexual. Honestly, I can't see him getting this much leeway if he weren't a homosexual marriage option but behaved the same as he does now and yet I've yet to see any forum goes call him out in his behavior. Especially when we have  Beruka, who suffered through comparable if not worse circumstances but still holds herself to a standard that is higher than lashing out in one way or another despite her own issues, be present on the same side as him. I get the idea of not outright despising him to the point of wishing death upon him but actually praising him? Really?

In summary, I'm just sick of the shortsightedness and the repetition of the same complaints over and over when they are either about something that isn't even part of the character in question's actual 'character', as in the sort of person they are, or when they are just another example of failing to take everything, or at the very least to take more, into account and instead responding only to what you are being told and/or something that is only seen on a surface level instead of stopping to think about it on a deeper level. This is a recurring trend in the vast majority of forums about this game, if not every single one of them, and it drives me up the wall. I mean, this like the sort of behavior where someone who doesn't stop to think about what they have seen or heard so far and/or someone who doesn't read item descriptions and other such bits of information complaining that "Dark Souls has no plot".

But no, you're right. The fault is my own for expecting a higher degree of objectivity. Not even trying to be passive-aggressive here, it really is a pointless gesture for me to do. Its just that it is in human nature to hope for better things no matter what and I keep falling for the same trap. I just never posted in such a blatant manner about it before.

My issue with Peri is that her supports focus more on world-building than herself.  I got more information about Nohr's social hierarchy out of her than actual personality traits (other than "I miss mommy").  Though it would've been tricky, her supports about her trauma would've been a great way to showcase both her own coping methods as well as the state of mental health in Nohr, but that would be insanely ambitious.  Instead, we have two sort-of coping methods (killing servants and taking up cooking), and very little about how Nohrians are supposed to deal with trauma.  Several other characters had this same potential, too (Soliel, for one).

Tharja also had the same divide, where people just wrote her off, despite the fact that her supports show quite a bit of depth.  My wish is for a barebones story with minimal characterization (a la Shadow Dragon), because the amount of truly in-depth discussion I see about characters is maddeningly low.  Since IS isn't designed to cater to me, I predict "supports for everyone" is how it will go.  Instead of posting cryptic comments that do nothing for the thread, I'll post my own opinions on the characters who I think are criminally misread (like Peri), while doing my best to find a balance between a cited paper and a summary.

EDIT: Since I can't figure out tagging, this will have to do.

Edited January 20, 2017 by eclipse

[Azure Sen]

Just put an @ and the board will bring up a list of suggestions for the tagging, @eclipse.

The issue I have with Peri as a world-building device is that Peri pretty clearly falls into the trope of "cute girl that's actually a violent psychopath," and I don't think she was intended to be anything but that. I'm not saying that reading her as a world building device is wrong, because with some exceptions there's not really any right or wrong way to read a character or a text, but I do think it is an interpretation based on assigning deeper meaning to things that weren't intended by the writers to have one.

@RedEyedDrake: Alternatively, people did take everything into account when forming their opinions, and just didn't come to the same conclusions as you.

Also, telling other people to be objective while simultaneously using your own subjective views of Niles and Peri as proof of how people aren't reading characters the right way undercuts your entire point.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

He is right though. Not trying to be a martyr here because I also dislike characters for petty reasons, but there are a lot of double standards for Fates' characters.
Jakob VS Azama comes to mind, and the Niles VS Peri debacle. Niles is not even that good as a character, he is very much like somebody out of a trashy yaoi manga, but since he hits all the right spots for his demographic, nobody can hate him for being a sadist and somebody who probably pops a boner when killing people, because he is handsome and charismatic.

[Water Mage]

The difference between Niles and Peri, is that while he is a sadistic bastard, he's very much aware that it is a horrible thing to be, he doesn't drag other characters down nor does he was to. He also has standards and is capable of empathizing with others as shown in his supports with Mozu. He knows he's a horrible person, and doesn't other people to follow his example, as shown in his interactions with Nina. 

[Loki Laufeyson]

On 1/19/2017 at 5:05 PM, lordcorrin said:

Portrayal wise, I really hate Peri. Edgy character was done right with Henry; he was still likable, and not overbearing, or embarrassing. I can't stand the sight of Peri, and all of her lines are horrendous. Can you imagine somebody introducing themselves to you the way Peri does? 
 

Also, design-wise.. She's kind of an eyesore. The blue --> pink gradient hair is so.. eh. The styling of her pigtails is too much. Also, the heterochromia... eugh. I love Kozaki's designs, but this one was really a huge miss for me. 

Keep in mind, I have nothing against "dark" characters. In fact, they're one of my favorite archetypes. And of course, everything I just said is super subjective.. but Peri just doesn't do it for me.

 

If you thought Peri was supposed to be edgy, im afraid you are mistaken. Theres literally nothing edgy about her other than the fact she likes murder. Due to how that is even presented, i doubt edgy was the aim. She is an anime trope of a cute girl who likes to stab things and smiles about it. While i understand it gets people's wands in a knot that people in-game dismiss this (sorta. Some dont), this character isnt supposed to be more than she is presented and certainly not supposed to be really dark. Nothing about Nohr is really dark or gritty. Edgy is guys like Naesala. Peri isnt like that at all. I agree with @eclipse that Peri provides some worldbuilding and insight to Nohr, but i dont think it was really intentional. I also think people take the character too seriously thinking shes something shes not. (read: edgy) 

 

23 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

The difference between Niles and Peri, is that while he is a sadistic bastard, he's very much aware that it is a horrible thing to be, he doesn't drag other characters down nor does he was to. He also has standards and is capable of empathizing with others as shown in his supports with Mozu. He knows he's a horrible person, and doesn't other people to follow his example, as shown in his interactions with Nina. 

 

Agreed. Niles is a deeper character and more fleshed out. He explains his actions and theres a measure of self-loathing there that makes me appreciate him more. Again, its not a big deal if people dont dig him as a character due to his attitude. Understandable. But i appreciate him a great deal because he does get called out, answers to it at times, and is just a pretty interesting character. Shame theres not MORE to him. 

 

I thought it was almost unanimously agreed that Jakob was a bit of a twat...? Or did i miss something?

[Slyfox]

Jakob is arguably the most unrepentant jerk in Fates, you aren't alone. Although the Jakob hate has died down quite a bit.

 

Anyway, at the end of the day, having a standard set of C-B-A+S supports will kill any attempt at genuine character development / story / world building. Why not have some supports that end at C, or maybe E, simply based on the importance of what needs to be discussed or developed? Supports with multiple characters at the same time? New supports after certain events, with previously supported characters if need be? Supports after certain characters get paired, like how the royal family will act if a character marries into said family? The DLC in Awakening and Fates give us a taste of what a more dynamic approach would be.

I know I would have trouble writing something interesting if I had to rigidly follow the 3-4 support rule, for so many different characters. It's an inflexible system, no creative person can flourish when only allowed to follow one kind of plan.

[Azure Sen]

6 hours ago, CrimeanRoyalKnight said:

He is right though. Not trying to be a martyr here because I also dislike characters for petty reasons, but there are a lot of double standards for Fates' characters.
Jakob VS Azama comes to mind, and the Niles VS Peri debacle. Niles is not even that good as a character, he is very much like somebody out of a trashy yaoi manga, but since he hits all the right spots for his demographic, nobody can hate him for being a sadist and somebody who probably pops a boner when killing people, because he is handsome and charismatic.

Jakob vs. Azama is a conflict I have no investment in because I don't really like either of them, but I and other people will pick Jakob if given the choice because he can actually act like a decent human being to people who aren't Kamui on occasion, while Azama is 99% jerk and 1% not (and even that 1% is debatable). Unless there's a lot of people excusing Jakob for his actual jerk moments that I'm missing, which is always a possibility.

As for Niles vs. Peri, another conflict I don't really have an investment in because I dislike both sides...I'm pretty sure in most people's books, sadistic jerk vs. gleefully psychotic actual serial killer will always end in favor of the jerk, especially if he does have some depth to him like Niles does.

I get where you're coming from. Fandom double standards are a frustrating thing to deal with, but it kind of loses its double standard status when the side on the receiving end of fandom scorn is demonstrably worse than the other (except when fandom absolves one side completely of all their wrongdoing, but that's always a problem). 

Edited January 21, 2017 by AzureSen

[Loki Laufeyson]

i think people just need to leave other people alone about who they like in fiction. Because its freaking fiction. Everyone has reasons to like or dislike a character and these things are pretty harmless. Liking Peri as a character or a unit doesnt mean one is ok with cavalier murder (oh theres a pun there!) and liking someone like Sakura doesnt mean someone is a doormat. So you know...

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

I've never really understood why Jakob receives so much hate. Was he made ruder from the Japanese version to the English one? I always just found his snarkiness funny. Occasionally I'd go "lol that's fucked up Jakob", then I just don't think much about it.

Edited January 21, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy