Really Fast Turn Around

[dragonlordsd]

Now, I'm not complaining or anything, but it took them four years to make Fates. And at least two years to make Awakening (too tired to look up actual timeframe). So, how on earth is this game coming out in just four months!? That's only a year and a half!

Did IS get a lot more staff or something in the interim?

[The DanMan]

They started working on Fates right after Awakening, so it was sub-3.

Fates was a massive project that also upgraded the series' engine.

Here, they already have a decent engine and a solid base to build off of-- plus, I'm personally convinced IS got some new recruits and a side-team is working on this.

[Azure Sen]

Since IntSys has been relatively quiet since the release of the last of the Fates DLC, it's hard to say how long Echoes has been in production. It's been well over a year and a half since Fates was released in Japan, after all, so they had plenty of time to work on the game, assuming that production began shortly after Fates' production ended.

[dragonlordsd]

3 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

Here, they already have a decent engine and a solid base to build off of-- plus, I'm personally convinced IS got some new recruits and a side-team is working on this.

I think you might be right.

The reason why I wasn't sure how long Awakening took is that I'm pretty sure a different team was working on New Mystery of the Emblem, while the main team was working on Awakening. After all, there wouldn't be much overlap in terms of the actual work. Awakening was in 3d, and that game was in 2d.

If they rolled staff off from Fates as they were finishing, I could see how this was done.

[Aurabolt]

I think the reason this is coming out so fast is because it's a remake. I think it's a safe bet they started working on it after the finished with Fates. Clearly they used assets from Awakening and Fates for Echoes. Unlike those two games though, there is only a 1-month gap between the Japanese and U.S. releases. So, more than likely the DLC for both regions as well as Europe will be released simultaneously.

I do think they started working on Echoes while Fates was in production, finished Fates and then finished went back to Echoes. Everyone so busy with Fates and later TMS last year I don't think we ever considered the possability they would be working FE in 2016 =O

The game being announced today tells me the DLC is being worked on as we speak.

 

[Locke087]

 This is what happens when you can build games off the same engine. Since Echoes can be built off the Fates and Awakening engine it can be built in a relatively short amount of time, it's also the reason they were able to financially pull off the three versions of Fates. It's definitely been in production since the end of Fates though they probably had smaller teams working on DLC.  Being a remake semi helps but since is the complete overhaul of the game in question it's still about about as hard as making a new game.

My more speculative ideas are that they may have had a B team working on this as well during Fates production. They likely flipped over most of their team to get this ready to show and out the door, then after this is out the door the whole team will be concentrating on the switch game. Unless they plan to have multiple teams creating more remakes who knows.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Locke087

[nordopolica]

I think it's generally an indication of the direction Kimishima's Nintendo intends for Fire Emblem. As a "major IP" now, Echoes seems to be sort of a filler or spin-off game while the 2018 Switch FE is in development. The fact that the Switch one is in development concurrently is probably evidence of a smaller team handling Echoes while the brunt works on the other.

What I worry about with this is that Echoes won't be chunky enough in its own right. I fear a rushed job with few if any meaningful supports and character building, and cut-down gameplay mechanics. But I'm cautiously optimistic. If this just means that Nintendo values Fire Emblem as an IP more because of its success, then bring it on. If not, well then at least we have a game to tide us over for the main meal. 

[Tolvir]

Nintendo could of also sent s lot of new people over for IS to use since Fire Emblem is now one of their main series. Could of easily been in production alongside Fates, or right afterwards. Since it is clearly built off of Fates/Awakening engine, they didn't have to build from the ground up. And it's a remake on top of it, which means they had more of an area to start with rather than Fates, where they started from scratch.

[Aurabolt]

4 minutes ago, Locke087 said:

My more speculative ideas are that they may have had a B team working on this as well during Fates production. They likely flipped over most of their team to get this ready to show and out the door, then after this is out the door the whole team will be concentrating on the switch game. Unless they plan to have multiple teams creating more remakes who knows.

Prettymuch what I said but I think IS will have a separate team for the unnamed Switch game. Probably the same team will be working on FE Warriors (Switch and New 3DS) since it's getting released on two consoles.

That said, I don't think Echoes was a rush job. This is Nintendo we're talking about. They don't release games unless they're 100% satisfied with the finished product. IS getting more funding also brings hope we will not only see another remake next year but a sequel down the road. Hmm...

 

[Rezzy]

Since it will be almost 2 years between this and the Japanese release of Fates, it's not a super quick turn around.  I think getting a new game every other year is reasonable.

[Hardin]

I would imagine that the bulk of the team working on Code Name STEAM was probably assigned to this, which gives them about two years of development. Maeda and his staff are most likely deeply involved in FE Switch and Heroes. 

[Locke087]

38 minutes ago, Hardin said:

I would imagine that the bulk of the team working on Code Name STEAM was probably assigned to this, which gives them about two years of development. Maeda and his staff are most likely deeply involved in FE Switch and Heroes. 

Oh I was not thinking about the team who did Codename Steam I completely forgot about that game's existence, yeah that is likely the team that worked on this game.

Also while IS do have to commit some resources in advisory and oversight for games like Warriors and TMS, Koei Temco & Atlus did the bulk of the work for these games. IS doesn't have to commit significant resources to FE Warriors so the bulk of their efforts will be focused on the switch game and getting Echoes out the door (studios often merge teams for a limited time during the ending months of development in order to get the product out the door on time). I'm sure they are deeply involved in the planning and making sure everything is right they just don't have to commit many development resources to it. I'm sure this is all you meant just clarifying for anyone reading this. 

46 minutes ago, Aurabolt said:

Prettymuch what I said but I think IS will have a separate team for the unnamed Switch game. Probably the same team will be working on FE Warriors (Switch and New 3DS) since it's getting released on two consoles.

That said, I don't think Echoes was a rush job. This is Nintendo we're talking about. They don't release games unless they're 100% satisfied with the finished product. IS getting more funding also brings hope we will not only see another remake next year but a sequel down the road. Hmm...

 Well that's what happens when we post near the same time lol. The two teams will definitely be merged for the initial point of development after Echoes is finished if they do not already have their next project planned, they will be working with the Switch team until the next project is decided and out of planning phase, but they'll likely be separated once the project is Greenlit, how people many are working on the project depends on how many resources need to be committed to Switch game as it is a more intensive project, so I can definitely see the second team being shrunken.

I wouldn't worry about the quality of the remake as far as technical concerns Nintendo is the absolute king of making sure games run well, they generally do very good quality assurance.  

Edited January 19, 2017 by Locke087

[BrightBow]

Personally what surprises me the most is how small the gap between the Japanese and international release is this time around. I suppose this is one of the perks of being a major IP.

Edited January 19, 2017 by BrightBow

[Rezzy]

46 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Personally what surprises me the most is how small the gap between the Japanese and international release is this time around. I suppose this is one of the perks of being a major IP.

I'm glad it's a smaller window this time.  I honestly have no idea why Fates took so long to translate, if they planned to localize it from the beginning.

[Aurabolt]

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

I'm glad it's a smaller window this time.  I honestly have no idea why Fates took so long to translate, if they planned to localize it from the beginning.

 

...Ever try translating a game's script from one language to another? Just anyone who's done translation patches. They'll tell you it's not easy.

It had nothing to do with weather Fates was going to be released outside Japan or not. It was simply a matter of getting it done and getting it done right.

 

 

[Rezzy]

4 minutes ago, Aurabolt said:

 

...Ever try translating a game's script from one language to another? Just anyone who's done translation patches. They'll tell you it's not easy.

It had nothing to do with weather Fates was going to be released outside Japan or not. It was simply a matter of getting it done and getting it done right.

 

 

I can't speak for translating from Japanese, but if it's someone's or much more likely a whole team's full time job to translate, I don't see why it should take a year to do it.  Doing it more or less alone as a fan side-project gives you a bit more leniency in my expectations.

[Sentinel07]

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

I'm glad it's a smaller window this time.  I honestly have no idea why Fates took so long to translate, if they planned to localize it from the beginning.

There is the possibility that they may have intentionally made Fates a February 2016 release so it'd be in the same month as Awakening's release and have similar success.

Kind of like how news is out that Super Mario Odyssey is pretty much complete yet it's not coming until Holiday 2017. Likely an intentional action.

[nordopolica]

5 minutes ago, Aurabolt said:

 

...Ever try translating a game's script from one language to another? Just anyone who's done translation patches. They'll tell you it's not easy.

It had nothing to do with weather Fates was going to be released outside Japan or not. It was simply a matter of getting it done and getting it done right.

I think the point wasn't that localisation is easy or quick to do, but that, like translation patches, the English localisation of Fates was conducted with the finished product. Now that Fire Emblem is a major Nintendo IP, perhaps it is an indication that simultaneous localisations will finally be a thing. 

[Rezzy]

1 minute ago, Sentinel07 said:

There is the possibility that they may have intentionally made Fates a February 2016 release so it'd be in the same month as Awakening's release and have similar success.

Kind of like how news is out that Super Mario Odyssey is pretty much complete yet it's not coming until Holiday 2017. Likely an intentional action.

I honestly don't know why they don't release their Mario game at launch.  Zelda is pretty much the only thing the Switch has going for it at launch, and you can just play that on the Wii U, if you have one.

Just now, nordopolica said:

I think the point wasn't that localisation is easy or quick to do, but that, like translation patches, the English localisation of Fates was conducted with the finished product. Now that Fire Emblem is a major Nintendo IP, perhaps it is an indication that simultaneous localisations will finally be a thing. 

Yes, I don't think it's an easy job, but it is a job an it's not unreasonable to expect a more or less simultaneous release with major IPs nowadays, if they are planning to release it world-wide from conception.  I can understand, if they want to see if it sells well in Japan first, like they sometimes do, but if they plan to release it anywhere from the beginning, they should have a team working on translating from the beginning.

[IGdood]

3 hours ago, The DanMan said:

Here, they already have a decent engine and a solid base to build off of-- plus, I'm personally convinced IS got some new recruits and a side-team is working on this.

 

I guess you can say...it's a "gaiden game."

[Dandy Druid]

Nintendo values FE now so you know IS got more people on the payroll, which means more teams to work on this.

With remakes, the story is already there. All they have to do is elaborate on it and flesh out the characters more. They already have a base, it's just a matter of deciding which direction to take it and how they want interpret the cast. Also Gaiden's cast is smaller than Awakening and Fates, which may be another reason it took a shorter time.

However they probably had to 

1. design all the maps/dungeons/towns

2. revamp the character designs

3. add more to the story and characters (adding anime cutscenes and normal ones, making a couple of new characters)

4. maybe alter some of the current characters (i.e. change their original class for diversity)

 

this was probably all decided when Fates was wrapping up production and once they finished Fates, began this.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Locke087 said:

 This is what happens when you can build games off the same engine. Since Echoes can be built off the Fates and Awakening engine it can be built in a relatively short amount of time, it's also the reason they were able to financially pull off the three versions of Fates. It's definitely been in production since the end of Fates though they probably had smaller teams working on DLC.  Being a remake semi helps but since is the complete overhaul of the game in question it's still about about as hard as making a new game.

My more speculative ideas are that they may have had a B team working on this as well during Fates production. They likely flipped over most of their team to get this ready to show and out the door, then after this is out the door the whole team will be concentrating on the switch game. Unless they plan to have multiple teams creating more remakes who knows.

I actually don't reckon that's the case. Not only do they have all the ground work done for the coding but they also have everyone done for the design of the game. In terms of story and aesthetic, little to no preproduction is needed where people have to work on designing a concept, submitting it only for it to be turned down or something major needs to be changed and rebuilt. Designs would of course still be over hauled and need to be tweaked but no work needs to actually go into deciding what they're actually making. The work is only about compiling things and balancing gameplay. If we're getting new maps then that'll cost a bit of time to design but it seems they are keeping at least some of the same maps. Don't want to imply it's a cakewalk but still, with the bulk of the coding and concept designs already done, it would be significantly easier to make than a typical game.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Jotari

[Kirokan]

3 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I can't speak for translating from Japanese, but if it's someone's or much more likely a whole team's full time job to translate, I don't see why it should take a year to do it.  Doing it more or less alone as a fan side-project gives you a bit more leniency in my expectations.

The process of translation is simple, but it is the process of localization that takes so long, even in the team. There are many things they go through which a fan translator does not have to worry about.

-Securing licenses, coming up with a plan of action, release, optimal times, etc discussion, even if planned from the start this sort of thing can take a little while.

-The initial literal translation run of every single piece of game text, from unused to used, all supports, story, descriptions, etc. Working without context most of the time, so have to line it up, discuss, etc.

-The next run has the editors working with translators to make it make more sense. They have to run through every bit of text again to ensure that it is up to a common standard. This is where they discuss what stays or what gets left out for the audience.

-Third run now has the writers come in and make it "flow" better. (This is where the memes sometimes happen...). These writers often don't speak Japanese and are focusing simply on the English (and why some nuisances get lost in translation).

-Final edit run, all that text, again.

-Board approval? No? Need to fix something? Go back to fix it. Present again!

-Any assets being changed? Menu's? Text size? Font? Programming changes are a big part of the process too.

-Will there be voice acting? Will someone else sing the song? They now have to outsource this part to a recording studio, prepare proper translations for them, oversee them, correct them, see what fits the ideal plan.

-During all of the above is communication with NoJ, whether it comes to something they wanted changed (and hence scrapped a part of the translation for a new one), etc.

-Advertising? Assets used for it? Logo? Other marketing tidbits?

-Then comes the question of shipment, how many copies will be prepared, when? The game can be all done but still release weeks later as a result.

-Being a regular 8-5 job, they won't work on weekends, already removing a significant amount of time to work per month. Don't forget holidays and such! Fan translators don't need to worry about any of that.

Phew! With all this, you can see why it takes that long even for a team. xD I hope that gives some perspective. This wasn't even everything to consider, I'm sure I missed a few things.

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Kirokan

[dragonlordsd]

3 hours ago, Kirokan said:

The process of translation is simple, but it is the process of localization that takes so long, even in the team.

This is true. Translating is easy. Actually making what you write work in a game is a completely different beast altogether.

Much less all the other steps you have to go through.

Edited January 19, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[henrymidfields]

I can totally see how translating between English/Japanese would be difficult. I've done a bit of that when I was quoting original Japanese and translating them into English for my final Master's paper on Tokyo Station, and that is easier said than done.

What is much less understandable is why it takes much longer to get a UK/Australian release. Most, if not all, of the TV stuff we get in Australia are the very same thing as in the UK/US, and I'd be very surprised if the same thing wasn't the case between American TV shows aired in the UK, or vice versa. Even if there are different censorship laws, licensing issues, etc, can't the paperwork of that sort be worked on simutaneously?

Related to this, why do PAL region have to have the various European language release at one single date, and why does that seem to have an "all European languages or no export at all" approach? Apart from personal preferences/bias, is there a thing against release dates in order of, say, Japanese (the original language for FE games) -> English (US/UK/Australia/New Zealand etc) -> Spanish (Europe/South America), French (Europe/Canada) -> German/Italian? (I say this, as I think we all know that French/Spanish are also relatively widely understood/spoken.) Accuse me of being Anglo-centric, and yes, ideally Nintendo (or any other game company) should aim for a full European release of all five languages. But surely an PAL version with only the three more widely spoken languages is still better than no European localisation whatsoever, no?

Nonetheless, I'm glad that FE is now a major IP, and it is finally getting the recognition we (at least for Serenes Forest members) were hoping for.

Edited January 19, 2017 by henrymidfields