Poll Results Update - Current Top 20 of each gender

[DeoxyRibose]

Am I the only one who at least partially likes all the characters up there? The only problem I have with the polls is the the huge gap between Female and Male Corrin (mostly because I think he deserves more credit), but I do like all of the guys higher up than Male Corrin more than I like him.

Also, I'm really glad to see some characters like Lute, Henry and Donnel up there! I'd say Nino, too, but I never finished FE7. I should probably get around to that.

[Sunwoo]

13 hours ago, Sylphid said:

B-but my boy Tormod

Hey, I like Tormod as well and I would've really loved to have him in Heroes. Unfortunately, it's just all too apparent that Tormod doesn't meet many of the marks of what constitutes a popular male character. He just can't complete with "heartthrobs" like Takumi or Leon or Marth or Ike.

That said, I'm perfectly fine with having Roy and Micaiah on the poll. Even if Eliwood isn't on there.

[Ertrick36]

2 hours ago, dap005 said:

Either way I don't think people shouldn't enjoy the characters or story still, I mean you can like something and be critical of it after all :).

That's something that I believe we all should keep in mind when reading someone's opinions or even thinking about our own opinions.  At the very least, it's how I am with Fates.  I mean, I don't really like Camilla, but I can't say I hate her.  I am also that rare breed of person who likes Rhajat, but I bitch about her supports with Corrin constantly.  I like Soleil, but bitch about her controversial supports.  So on and so fourth.  I never really get all up in a bunch about fictional stuff, even when I act like it.  Same goes for others' opinions.

That being said, I do agree with your stance on the sex appeal characters.  I wish they were more like Tethys.  It feels like the whole theme of these characters being evil or dark characters is due to the stigma of sexualization being sinful or an "underhanded" trick; like these women are wrong for being sexually appealing or using their sex appeal.  And thus are punished with poor characterization and pervy cameras being shoved up in their crevices.

2 hours ago, dap005 said:

one of Forrest's quote really stood out to me...

You referring to that quote at the top of the page?  I already like Forrest, but that quote is truly an amazing piece.  "Being both our unique selves and quite ordinary"...  When people wonder why I like Forrest more than, say, Libra, I'll just point them to that quote.  And to my SF profile pic and member badge while telling them to "do the math". 

[BANRYU]

Forrest was a really good and progressive character to have in these games, especially for the west, which has more stigmas about crossdressing and trans characters than Japan (IIRC?) does. That boy is truly a blessing. Really glad he didn't get his representation censored like Vivian in Paper Mario and Gracie in Animal Crossing did. 

[dap005]

3 hours ago, BANRYU said:

Forrest was a really good and progressive character to have in these games, especially for the west, which has more stigmas about crossdressing and trans characters than Japan (IIRC?) does. That boy is truly a blessing. Really glad he didn't get his representation censored like Vivian in Paper Mario and Gracie in Animal Crossing did. 

Ye, glad the localisation team did Forrest's character justice. Now that I think about it IS has always tried putting lgbt+ characters in their games regardless of at times problematic potrayal (tbf it's bc there's very little of them) but they don't shy away from it. I remember an interview with the staff about Heather and the interviewer was asking why she liked ladies did she have  a traumatic past? And the FE staff just replied: 'Maybe she was born that way.' And well the truth is there's a lot of stigma in Japan towards the lgbt+ and the realism of their situation doesn't really reflect the fantasies in manga/anime so I thought that was quite something for the dev staff to say esp at that time. 

@Ertrick36 100% agreed we should have more characters like Tethys (or a cast at ss level really haha) and it's the top quote of Forrest's I'm referring to (it's really relatable and touching to me, being gay and part of the lgbt+ community):  "Being both our unique selves and quite ordinary"  I hear ya Forrest lol. 

 

[Thane]

8 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

@Thane Eh, I'd say selfishness is also a personality trait. It's no secret that Fates' supports generally suck, but a character being selfish isn't a bad thing. You may not like the character, but it still develops the character, so it says nothing about the quality of said support. Also, I don't personally remember Camilla being selfish, but I haven't read all of them, so you might be right.

Yes, it may develop the character, but people are more likely dislike traits they find obnoxious, hence why there's more dislike for Camilla than Tharja in general. I'd like to point out that I wouldn't have minded Camilla being selfish if she had been portrayed as such, but the game wants us to think she's a warm, loving character when she's really not. It's for the same reason a lot of people don't like Nohrrin; I've seen a lot of people saying it would've been fine with them being a villain as long as the game portrays them as one, but you're told you're heroic for slaughtering innocents, which doesn't sit well with people.

It's not just a matter of actually giving someone a personality trait, either; you've actually got to make it appealing. 

Well, for starters, she says she'll break Severa's legs if she plans to leave her service, just so that she couldn't leave her side. She's not joking, by the way, and this stands in stark contrast to Xander and Leo, who says their retainers' happiness is more important than them remaining by their side. 

 

8 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Idk, ridiculous clothes have never bothered me. I just roll with most things in fantasy games. Fanservice is just "ayy lmao" and then I don't pay much attention to it.

Then why even bring it up?

Edited January 27, 2017 by Thane

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

14 minutes ago, Thane said:

Yes, it may develop the character, but people are more likely dislike traits they find obnoxious, hence why there's more dislike for Camilla than Tharja in general. I'd like to point out that I wouldn't have minded Camilla being selfish if she had been portrayed as such, but the game wants us to think she's a warm, loving character when she's really not. It's for the same reason a lot of people don't like Nohrrin; I've seen a lot of people saying it would've been fine with them being a villain as long as the game portrays them as one, but you're told you're heroic for slaughtering innocents, which doesn't sit well with people.

It's not just a matter of actually giving someone a personality trait, either; you've actually got to make it appealing. 

Well, for starters, she says she'll break Severa's legs if she plans to leave her service, just so that she couldn't leave her side. She's not joking, by the way, and this stands in stark contrast to Xander and Leo, who says their retainers' happiness is more important than them remaining by their side. 

 

Then why even bring it up?

I don't see why a character can't have a few flaws. It makes them more complex. A major complaint about the Avatar system in Awakening and Fates is how "perfect" the Avatars are, and how much everyone loves them.

And that's how war works; you get praised for killing as many people as you can. It's not black and white.

I bring it up because a lot of people seem really bothered by fanservice, an opinion that I am unable to understand.

Edited January 27, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Sunwoo]

1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I don't see why a character can't have a few flaws. It makes them more complex. A major complaint about the Avatar system in Awakening and Fates is how "perfect" the Avatars are, and how much everyone loves them.

Flaws are only flaws if they mean something. This is a trap I've seen a lot of Mary Sue characters fall into in fanfiction. Writers who don't know what they're doing will give a character a flaw just so they can say, "see, they're not perfect and so they're not a Mary Sue," without realizing why characters need flaws. Clumsiness is not a character flaw, but it's one I've seen in quite a few characters who can be classified as Mary Sues, like Bella Swan from Twilight. Her clumsiness only exists to make her more "appealing", and it never really affects the plot or causes real consequences for her.

A character whose flaw is "doesn't do well with people" could go one of two ways. That "doesn't do well with people" could be something that we're told but never actually shown, and so therefore not a real flaw the character has. Or the character could notice a major problem that they never bring up because they are nervous about speaking out, and it leads to people getting killed because they don't do well with people. That's a flaw because now it has actual consequences.

Of course, there are also characters with flaws but their flaws are either purposely ignored by the narrative or we're told that the flaw doesn't exist and that they're perfect. And that's not the way to go. Flaws have to have consequences, or actually affect the character in a meaningful way, and they have to be acknowledged by the narrative as something that exists.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

I know about endearing "flaws", and I know they're not actual character flaws. I don't think that's related to this discussion, since in the example Thane gave of Camilla's selfishness, it may be written as a "hahaha" moment but it's clearly not supposed to be endearing.

[Sunwoo]

6 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I know about endearing "flaws", and I know they're not actual character flaws. I don't think that's related to this discussion, since in the example Thane gave of Camilla's selfishness, it may be written as a "hahaha" moment but it's clearly not supposed to be endearing.

I see his point on Camilla's selfishness more as being a flaw that's not acknowledged by the narrative, because it really isn't. It feels like the player is supposed to be flattered that Camilla "loves" them so much and that the narrative doesn't really point out that it's a bad thing to be this unhealthily attached to people you're supposed to love.

[Thane]

15 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I don't see why a character can't have a few flaws. It makes them more complex. A major complaint about the Avatar system in Awakening and Fates is how "perfect" the Avatars are, and how much everyone loves them.

Like Sunwoo said, this flaw doesn't mean anything and isn't even brought up; we're supposed to think she's a warm, caring person regardless of being shown evidence of the contrary. 

Just because Camilla is selfish doesn't mean she's a complex character. Just because a character is given many traits does not mean that character is deep or engaging. That's just not how writing works.

 

16 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

And that's how war works; you get praised for killing as many people as you can. It's not black and white

What on earth are you talking about?

 

17 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I bring it up because a lot of people seem really bothered by fanservice, an opinion that I am unable to understand.

But...I just explained my opinion; you don't have to agree with it, but how can you not understand where I'm coming from? 

If we take Camilla as an example, she's a monarch who walks around in overly revealing clothing, even around her own family. The cutscenes she's in focus only on her looks as opposed to her as a character. Intelligent Systems have shown they didn't want her to be more than eyecandy, yet she's still somehow marketed as a main character just because people like the way she looks, even though she's a despicable person and a shallow character meant to please the player. 

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

5 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I see his point on Camilla's selfishness more as being a flaw that's not acknowledged by the narrative, because it really isn't. It feels like the player is supposed to be flattered that Camilla "loves" them so much and that the narrative doesn't really point out that it's a bad thing to be this unhealthily attached to people you're supposed to love.

That's true. That's a general problem with the royals in Fates, though. They appear to have bearing on the plot compared to the side characters, but they really don't, and most of their interactions are meant to bring out the Avatar's importance or personality instead. Unfortunately. All four sisters in the game pretty much unconditionally love the Avatar, and all the brothers have this deep respect for him/her. Only Takumi ever remotely generates conflict, and it is done in a way that only makes Takumi look idiotic.

4 minutes ago, Thane said:

Like Sunwoo said, this flaw doesn't mean anything and isn't even brought up; we're supposed to think she's a warm, caring person regardless of being shown evidence of the contrary. 

Just because Camilla is selfish doesn't mean she's a complex character. Just because a character is given many traits does not mean that character is deep or engaging. That's just not how writing works.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

 

But...I just explained my opinion; you don't have to agree with it, but how can you not understand where I'm coming from? 

If we take Camilla as an example, she's a monarch who walks around in overly revealing clothing, even around her own family. The cutscenes she's in focus only on her looks as opposed to her as a character. Intelligent Systems have shown they didn't want her to be more than eyecandy, yet she's still somehow marketed as a main character just because people like the way she looks, even though she's a despicable person and a shallow character meant to please the player. 

I was responding to your statement about making a character "appealing", and when I read your earlier post, the message I got was that Camilla's selfishness made her unlikeable, and therefore presents a problem. I was arguing more generally, but using Camilla as the background of the discussion doesn't really help my stance, I guess.

You pointed out that people complain about Nohrrin getting praised as heroic for killing innocents, even though it's not. My reply was hastily written because I didn't want the topic to just go undiscussed, but anyway, I don't understand said complaint. Soldiers get medals for killing, even now, and the people who hand out the medals don't really care about who exactly you're killing, as long as they're part of the enemy. It's natural for Nohrrin to receive praise for that. But honestly, I don't remember any part where Nohrrin ordered innocents to be killed in the game to begin with, so that's also a point of confusion.

I can't understand the complaints, pretty much because in my mind, I don't ask "Why are you upset?" Instead, my question is, "Why do you care?" It simply just doesn't register as a problem to me. That's why when you explain to me why you get upset, I can't really...understand. It's a huge gap in values.

Is Camilla really that despicable of a character? To me, her obsessive love and murderous tendencies are clearly mental illness, and I don't hate her for that. I suppose if you consider IS' intent behind Camilla, she really is just meant to be eye candy and Mary Sue reinforcement, but as a character, I just think she's a troubled individual. And again, I simply don't care about IS' marketing intent in that regard.

[Thane]

17 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I was responding to your statement about making a character "appealing", and when I read your earlier post, the message I got was that Camilla's selfishness made her unlikeable, and therefore presents a problem. I was arguing more generally, but using Camilla as the background of the discussion doesn't really help my stance, I guess.

It all comes down to a matter of opinion, but seeing as Camilla is a selfish, mentally unstable person who's ready to sacrifice other people's happiness in order to maintain her own yet consistently portrayed as a warm, loving person, I'd say that yeah, she's unlikeable. Some people might enjoy despicable people as characters, and I think they can be fun, too, but Camilla is there as fetish fuel, fan service and with only informed traits rather than shown ones, thus resulting in a character that's horribly written without the intention of ever being deep in the first place.

17 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

You pointed out that people complain about Nohrrin getting praised as heroic for killing innocents, even though it's not. My reply was hastily written because I didn't want the topic to just go undiscussed, but anyway, I don't understand said complaint. Soldiers get medals for killing, even now, and the people who hand out the medals don't really care about who exactly you're killing, as long as they're part of the enemy. It's natural for Nohrrin to receive praise for that. But honestly, I don't remember any part where Nohrrin ordered innocents to be killed in the game to begin with, so that's also a point of confusion.

Corrin goes back to an invading nation, obeys the orders of a madman who's killed their parents and tried killing them twice and is directly responsible for a lot of people's deaths. Then, when they have to invade Hoshido, they start talking about sacrificing their own happiness, rather than thinking about what it'll actually cost Hoshido. 

This is not heroic. This has nothing to do with receiving praise for being a good soldier. This is the narrative twisting itself to make it look like Corrin is in the right when they're really not. The Hoshidans were never their enemy; Garon was, yet it was the Hoshidans who paid the price. Not only that, but they're forgiven BY THE ROYAL FAMILY OF THE NATION THEY INVADED at the end of the game as if it was no big deal. 

17 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I can't understand the complaints, pretty much because in my mind, I don't ask "Why are you upset?" Instead, my question is, "Why do you care?" It simply just doesn't register as a problem to me. That's why when you explain to me why you get upset, I can't really...understand. It's a huge gap in values.

Then I'm just baffled that you bring it up. You're not even interested in a reply, you just seem to want to air your own opinions. I've given you a list of reasons why I care: it removes focus of the character itself, it feels insulting to be pandered to and frankly, Camilla's portrayal is downright sexist. 

If you've got no intention of entertaining other people's opinions, then what are you doing on a public forum bringing up topics like these only to disregard said opinions?

17 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Is Camilla really that despicable of a character? To me, her obsessive love and murderous tendencies are clearly mental illness, and I don't hate her for that. I suppose if you consider IS' intent behind Camilla, she really is just meant to be eye candy and Mary Sue reinforcement, but as a character, I just think she's a troubled individual. And again, I simply don't care about IS' marketing intent in that regard.

"Just a troubled individual" is one way of putting mentally unstable, self-serving and unsympathetic. 

If you want to continue talking about this, send me a PM; we're derailing the thread.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Thane

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Well, I'll just leave it at this: I meant no disrespect to your opinion, or anyone else's. I was interested, which is why I continued the discussion. I listened to it, thought about it, and somehow it just didn't click, even after your explanation.

[Dinar87]

I wonder who's going to win... just hope my boi Ike keeps DOMINATING ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) the competition.

[The Lord Of Gems]

17 hours ago, Quintessence said:

Holy shit these posts.

Time to RALLY MICAIAH

#VoteCanas

[Sylphid]

10 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Hey, I like Tormod as well and I would've really loved to have him in Heroes. Unfortunately, it's just all too apparent that Tormod doesn't meet many of the marks of what constitutes a popular male character. He just can't complete with "heartthrobs" like Takumi or Leon or Marth or Ike.

That said, I'm perfectly fine with having Roy and Micaiah on the poll. Even if Eliwood isn't on there.

Yeah I got that from your original post, that was more of a "let's not lose hope" kind of thing

That said, Tormod should make it to the game eventually, since presumably IS is planning to have everyone in it. The voting is for some special version (top male&female) and calendar (top10) artwork after all. The question is more when "eventually" is.

[BANRYU]

6 hours ago, Thane said:

Yes, it may develop the character, but people are more likely dislike traits they find obnoxious, hence why there's more dislike for Camilla than Tharja in general. I'd like to point out that I wouldn't have minded Camilla being selfish if she had been portrayed as such, but the game wants us to think she's a warm, loving character when she's really not. It's for the same reason a lot of people don't like Nohrrin; I've seen a lot of people saying it would've been fine with them being a villain as long as the game portrays them as one, but you're told you're heroic for slaughtering innocents, which doesn't sit well with people.

Well, for starters, she says she'll break Severa's legs if she plans to leave her service, just so that she couldn't leave her side. She's not joking, by the way, and this stands in stark contrast to Xander and Leo, who says their retainers' happiness is more important than them remaining by their side. 

5 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Is Camilla really that despicable of a character? To me, her obsessive love and murderous tendencies are clearly mental illness, and I don't hate her for that. I suppose if you consider IS' intent behind Camilla, she really is just meant to be eye candy and Mary Sue reinforcement, but as a character, I just think she's a troubled individual. And again, I simply don't care about IS' marketing intent in that regard.

I think 'despicable' might be a bit harsh; Camilla clearly has attachment issues, and her presence as a mother figure for Corrin is somewhat justified by Corrin's lack of a mother figure in their life as well as being used and not cared for by her own. It's pretty clear that the manipulative way she was raised results in her being fairly manipulative in her own right, even if she's aware of how bad her mother treated her and tries to be different-- but she can't. The 'yandere' part of Camilla's personality is actually one that makes perfect sense to me, given what we know about her. Now, do I think they went WAY overboard in the whole 'obsessive motherly big sister' fanservice? 100% absolutely. It's quite evident that what @Thane said is true about how greater care and emphasis was put on objectifying her, rather than furthering her character (which being sexy CAN be a part of-- it was just handled in a very poor/tasteless way). 

Honestly, I would have rather IS go a step further with the stuff like threatening to break Selena's legs, threatening people who try to leave her, etc-- I would have actually liked to see some payoff for one of those moments. Not for Selena perhaps (lord knows she doesn't deserve it), but perhaps another significant figure in the plot. Maybe SHE could have been the one to kill Zola after he proved problematic in Conquest? But nope we can't have that, a woman can't be the one to take initiative in the plot, that'd be compromising her status as fanservice icon, wouldn't it? ¬__¬ Ohhh, Japan.

Her class is another area where a lot of character-building (as well as worldbuilding) potential is lost IMO. Malig Knights are supposed to be sorcerous wyvern riders with undead mounts, right? That's so unique. In her class alone, there's the potential to explore 1) how a wyvern rider becomes a malig knight (do they have to resurrect a wyvern? KILL their own even? think of the psychological impact that ALONE could have), 2) Camilla's relationship with her wyvern (doesn't even have to be touched on that much, maybe in 1-2 supports), 3) her mix of proficiencies between combat, magic, animal-handling, how she trained, etc.... She, as the sole playable character unit who starts as a Malig Knight (not counting Nichol, he has no writing), stood to add SO much to the world of Fates purely by virtue of her class. 

Make no mistake here. I like Camilla, but I'm very aware of her flaws-- writing flaws as well as character flaws-- and will never hesitate to point out or criticize all the lost potential she  had to be a truly grim and/or tragic character in Fates' plot (making her be depressed and pass rule to Leo in Birthright is about the bare minimum of what they could have done with that). Even if I still like her design (to some extent) and her in-game utility. 

Still, I think the discourse we're even able to have over this proves that there WAS something more to Camilla than just the fanservice... Even if it wasn't much. 

[Thane]

35 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Still, I think the discourse we're even able to have over this proves that there WAS something more to Camilla than just the fanservice... Even if it wasn't much. 

By that logic the Awakening cast is the most developed one in the entire franchise because the debates about how bad it is never ends!

[Gima]

8 minutes ago, Thane said:

By that logic the Awakening cast is the most developed one in the entire franchise because the debates about how bad it is never ends!

Part of me wonders how much of that is just "get your animu out of my FE", since I can find a couple of things to criticize about almost every Fates character (the fact that they're your relative and you can romance them, their obsessiveness towards their master, the pedophilia inherent in marrying them at all, their violent nature, and the variety of excuses made to make the player forget all of these things, while in one case (and possibly more) creating new problems...) while I can only come up with a couple of things for a couple of members of the Awakening cast.

[BANRYU]

29 minutes ago, Thane said:

By that logic the Awakening cast is the most developed one in the entire franchise because the debates about how bad it is never ends!

I think that depends on how much of THAT discussion is actually making good points. If the debates are neverending circles of shitty logic and closeminded opinions, then no, not really. The point I was trying to make is that there are solid points being brought up both for and against Camilla (in these last few responses from people at least...).

For instance when it comes to people hating on Tharja their reasons for claiming she's a bad character are rarely ever good or backed up by what's in the game fight me /shot

Edited January 27, 2017 by BANRYU

[Thane]

Just now, BANRYU said:

I think that depends on how much of THAT discussion is actually making good points. If the debates are neverending circles of shitty logic and closeminded opinions, then no, not really. The point I was trying to make is that there are solid points being brought up both for and against Camilla (in these last few responses from people at least...).

I was just joking, buddy. Maybe I should've used the strikethrough font like I often do to make sure people understood it wasn't a serious post.

[BANRYU]

Just now, Thane said:

I was just joking, buddy. Maybe I should've used the strikethrough font like I often do to make sure people understood it wasn't a serious post.

Oh sorry lol ;; Yeah maybe so; it might also just be me though, I do have a tendency to let things like that fly over my head haha ;;;

[Sartek]

32 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

For instance when it comes to people hating on Tharja their reasons for claiming she's a bad character are rarely ever good or backed up by what's in the game fight me /shot

You mean like how she has no qualm about cursing the man she supposedly love or even use her comrade as guinea pigs for curses she intend to use on the man she supposedly love? Or even her own daughter. (To me the only good things about Tharja is that she choose to not become the even greater monster that raised Noire)

Edited January 27, 2017 by Sartek

[Tuvy]

3 minutes ago, Sartek said:

You mean like how she has no qualm about cursing the man she supposedly love or even use her comrade as guinea pigs for curses she intend to use on the man she supposedly love? Or even her own daughter. (To me the only good things about Tharja is that she choose to not become the even greater monster that raised Noire)

See, he gets it! I really like Noire and to think that anyone would treat another human being like that makes me sick!