Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)

[Roflolxp54]

Whoa, got 2 more defense wins while asleep though neither of them beat out 572 for this week's best.

Screwed over a player that owns a lv. 37 vanilla +Atk and -HP or -Spd Azura for 554 points.

Screwed over a player that owns a vanilla +Res/-HP Lucina for 562 points.

Total of 6 defense wins for this week, which is a lot in recent times; I usually don't get more than 1 defense win per week.

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[GinRei]

Darn, I was on the edge of breaking into tier 18 this morning (at like, 12,300 or so with a cutoff in the 12,600 range).  I'm now at 12,871 with a score of 4754.  Without spending a ton of crests to get optimal enemy point teams, I don't think this current team can go any higher.  Well, I guess maybe if I gave some assist skills to people, but even then...

[MrSmokestack]

@GinRei Filling out all of your skill slots and maxing out passive levels makes more of a difference in scoring than you might think. My score jumped almost 14 points after maxing out two of the missing passive skills on my own team, personally.

What's your team looking like right now?

Edited May 28, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Cute Chao]

13 minutes ago, GinRei said:

Darn, I was on the edge of breaking into tier 18 this morning (at like, 12,300 or so with a cutoff in the 12,600 range).  I'm now at 12,871 with a score of 4754.  Without spending a ton of crests to get optimal enemy point teams, I don't think this current team can go any higher.  Well, I guess maybe if I gave some assist skills to people, but even then...

I'm only four points above you and I'm currently at rank 11,831. Likely won't take much. However, I reckon I'll be slipping down to stay in this tier, too. 

[Ice Dragon]

10 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

(Lyn's Brash & Prf combo has good synergy, for example, but no one bothers with it because a Brave Weapon alone is basically the same thing.)

Except that Brave Sword+ costs her 8 Atk and 5 Spd, both of which she desperately wants to keep, with the only benefit being that it frees up her passive B slot.

[GinRei]

33 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

@GinRei Filling out all of your skill slots and maxing out passive levels makes more of a difference in scoring than you might think. My score jumped almost 14 points after maxing out two of the missing passive skills on my own team, personally.

What's your team looking like right now?

Currently Xander/bLucina/Ephraim/Azura.  Went and tossed an assist skill on the first three as they were missing them, and upped Xander's C-skill to level 3.  Of the two remaining crests for the day, it's looking like I'll end up with the same enemy range but with a better chance at 680 enemies rather than them being rather rare.

 

31 minutes ago, Cute Chao said:

I'm only four points above you and I'm currently at rank 11,831. Likely won't take much. However, I reckon I'll be slipping down to stay in this tier, too. 

Yeah, that's why I'm not too worried about using a bunch of SP/Crests/SI fodder.  Especially since I know the team will change up a lot next week when the rotation happens and it's only for like, 1 orb and 100 feathers.

[Cute Chao]

22 minutes ago, GinRei said:

Yeah, that's why I'm not too worried about using a bunch of SP/Crests/SI fodder.  Especially since I know the team will change up a lot next week when the rotation happens and it's only for like, 1 orb and 100 feathers.

I'm currently in denial that Xander won't keep being a bonus unit. I'm dreading having to rethink my team... unless they include a handy green mage as one of the bonuses... Though we've had Cecilia and Soren fairly recently. Unless they do Nino, and then my Nino is definitely being 4*'red :D 

Whatever happens, I hope these maps don't come back. While I came to enjoy the other tiled ones, these mostly felt like a slog throughout :/

[Fei Mao]

@MrSmokestack Nice! congrats on getting your deathless. I'll try, if I can get a deathlesss with my remaining two crests after reset I'm safe, if I fail I'm getting demoted since my rank is at 17,365 currently

[ignis_z]

3 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Whoa, got 2 more defense wins while asleep though neither of them beat out 572 for this week's best.

Screwed over a player that owns a lv. 37 vanilla +Atk and -HP or -Spd Azura for 554 points.

Screwed over a player that owns a vanilla +Res/-HP Lucina for 562 points.

Total of 6 defense wins for this week, which is a lot in recent times; I usually don't get more than 1 defense win per week.

 

Wich is your defensive team, i only got 1 Defense this week.

[Hawk King]

Just now, ignis_z said:

Wich is your defensive team, i only got 1 Defense this week.

Hey you got one!! Congratulations.

 

 

In Tier 17, a score of 4834 is good for rank 614 right now. Looks like me and 12,669+ other people are moving on up to Tier 18.

[DehNutCase]

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Except that Brave Sword+ costs her 8 Atk and 5 Spd, both of which she desperately wants to keep, with the only benefit being that it frees up her passive B slot.

Speed only prevents doubles once you're using brash & desperation. Unless you're hitting mages. Moreover, once you have a lot of speed, which Lyn does, having Brave let's you do things at 10 speed over the opponent while normally, 5 speed more is the cap. (In the brash & desperation case, 4 speed less is the cap for how much speed is useful.)

Besides, it doesn't have to be Lyn---Sol & Brash is Lyn only, and thus limited by her spread, but you can replicate her damage with, say, Brave-sword Chrom, and he'll have B-slot free for breaker etc.

Edit: 

13 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Well, Nino has the aura and Lilina has Rally as an emergency button (emergency button when -blades are concerned sounds ridiculous now that I say it aloud).

I'll probably go with Folkvangr/Swordbreaker with intent to switch to Brave Sword. I have an Ogma at 4*, but there are several promotions that need to occur first- such as Lilina and Nino. And if I really want, I can always promote Ogma before Alfie and have a 4* Brave Sword+ as a stop gap (it's not like Alfie's doing anything except being a bonus unit).

Promote Alfonse first---he hits like a bloody truck with Prf, and the overall stat increase is very nice, and you'll get more arena points that way too. (Since you both get a 5* Prf weapon and become 5 star, versus merely gaining a generic 5* weapon.)

Edited May 28, 2017 by DehNutCase

[ignis_z]

23 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Hey you got one!! Congratulations.

 

 

In Tier 17, a score of 4834 is good for rank 614 right now. Looks like me and 12,669+ other people are moving on up to Tier 18.

Hahah thanks but only 283 500 feathers

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Besides, it doesn't have to be Lyn---Sol & Brash is Lyn only, and thus limited by her spread, but you can replicate her damage with, say, Brave-sword Chrom, and he'll have B-slot free for breaker etc.

My statement was directed at Lyn in particular. Positive 39 Atk before passive skills is kind of pathetic.

Brave Sword on Chrom is obviously good because of his high base Atk and dumpable Spd, neither of which Lyn has.

[DehNutCase]

7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

My statement was directed at Lyn in particular. Positive 39 Atk before passive skills is kind of pathetic.

Brave Sword on Chrom is obviously good because of his high base Atk and dumpable Spd, neither of which Lyn has.

Lyn has 37 speed. Brave Sword at least let's her hit 4 times with it versus people who are slower than 32 (A-slot L&D). With her regular kit she doubles people below 35 speed with Fury or 37 with L&D. Without Brash. With brash the only people she needs speed for are the ones who don't hit back---unless prevent the double counter hit matters, in which case that'll be people with 45 speed for Fury 3, 47 speed for L&D. Who the hell is she hitting that has so much speed and doesn't get doubled to death?

She's in the 'Setsuna' zone of having way too much speed unless she uses a brave weapon. Having more speed than needed to double is completely pointless, and she has way more than needed versus most of the cast.

Edited May 28, 2017 by DehNutCase

[GinRei]

On the Brave Lyn discussion: my issue with using her with anything but the Brash Sol combo is that someone else always does it better.  Need high attack/speed?  Lucina has -1 speed and +6 attack.  Need high attack and physical bulk?  Alfonse, Chrom, Seliph, Ike, Xander, and Eldigan are all better.  Lyn's only other relatively unique trait is that she has higher resistance than most other red sword lords, but even then she's worse off than Roy and Eliwood.  So better to have her do what she excels at rather than trying to force her into a role that doesn't really fit her.

Unless you just really like the way that role functions, really like Lyn, and don't have room for anyone else to use said role on your team, I guess.

[Clogon]

29 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

With brash the only people she needs speed for are the ones who don't hit back---unless prevent the double counter hit matters, in which case that'll be people with 45 speed for Fury 3, 47 speed for L&D. Who the hell is she hitting that has so much speed and doesn't get doubled to death?

Without her Prf, the opponent can counter back which is not a good idea if you are using Brash. The combo allows her to run Death Blow giving her 9 more damage per attack than Brave+ LaD.

The biggest pro for the Sol Katti and Brash combo is that is that even at low HP, unless the opponent has Vantage, she will do 16-18 more damage before the opponent can counter at the cost of a B slot. This allows her to kill more things while low HP than the Brave+ build. Both builds have pros and cons.

[Ice Dragon]

25 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Lyn has 37 speed. Brave Sword at least let's her hit 4 times with it versus people who are slower than 32 (A-slot L&D). With her regular kit she doubles people below 35 speed with Fury or 37 with L&D. Without Brash. With brash the only people she needs speed for are the ones who don't hit back---unless prevent the double counter hit matters, in which case that'll be people with 45 speed for Fury 3, 47 speed for L&D. Who the hell is she hitting that has so much speed and doesn't get doubled to death?

She's in the 'Setsuna' zone of having way too much speed unless she uses a brave weapon. Having more speed than needed to double is completely pointless, and she has way more than needed versus most of the cast.

More Spd than is needed versus most of the cast is a scary place to be when the things that aren't in the "most of the cast" are really, really scary, like Ryoma, Lucina, Marth, Minerva, and Spring Camilla. Furthermore, 44 Atk (+Atk, Life and Death 3) is dangerously low to be dealing with the bulkiest of the slow units, like Eldigan, Xander, and Sheena (both Eldigan and Sheena will have Bonfire charged for the first counterattack).

Setsuna can get away with attacking enemies that cannot counterattack her back, which is not something Lyn can boast.

 

This is also made worse by where I am in the arena. When your offense team is half composed of +10 units, the +5 and +0 members are dealing with opponents with 2-4 points more of every stat than they're "supposed" to have.

[DehNutCase]

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Furthermore, 44 Atk (+Atk, Life and Death 3) is dangerously low to be dealing with the bulkiest of the slow units, like Eldigan, Xander, and Sheena (both Eldigan and Sheena will have Bonfire charged for the first counterattack).

That's more of an issue with Lyn's spread than Brave on a high-speed unit, to be honest. Even 53 damage (DB 3, +Atk, Sol Katti) isn't enough to KO someone like Eldigan.

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

More Spd than is needed versus most of the cast is a scary place to be when the things that aren't in the "most of the cast" are really, really scary, like Ryoma, Lucina, Marth, Minerva, and Spring Camilla.

Lyn has issues versus people around Ryoma's spread regardless---first, she'll almost never have the speed to double Ryoma no matter what she does. Fury 3 Ryoma has 4 speed less than L&D Lyn, this means you'd need buffs just to double him. If Ryoma has 4 more speed from merges than Lyn (which is pretty rare), then you'll need spurs to double him, since the +4 cancels out a buff's +4.

Lyn can't afford +Spd boon because Ryoma with Fury 3 has enough bulk to survive the 2HKO from a +Spd Lyn.

High speed units with passable bulk is troublesome no matter what variant of Lyn you're running, it's, again, just the problem of Lyn being Lyn. (And Brave-sword Lyn can at least run Sword-breaker or something to actually Kill Ryoma & activate Galeforce to get the fuck out. This is actually a minor plus for Brave-Sword Lyn, since there's not much Brash Lyn can do vs. Ryoma without buffs.)

 

S!Camilla should be one-shotting Lyn, and both Lyn variants KO her with a double. (Brave-sword Lyn would need a buff if S!Camilla has a merge speed advantage and +6 speed from hone. So this is a minor plus for Sol Katti Lyn, due to Brave-sword needing buffs or separating/eliminating the Hone flier provider.)

Minerva is actually a minor advantage to Brave-sword Lyn: Brave-sword Lyn manages the 2-shot with versus +10 Minerva one extra Atk (obtainable at +2 merge), Sol Katti Lyn fails to double. Minerva runs L&D, not running Brave isn't enough to double her, you need buffs, and lots of it. (+4 spd isn't enough for +2 Sol, +Atk, L&D Lyn to double.)

 

 

You've basically listed all the units Lyn has trouble with, not the units Sol Katti Lyn beats but Brave-Sword Lyn doesn't.

 

 

Edit:

Brave-sword Lyn actually has similar or better performance on the simulator too, vs +10 enemies:

Sol Katti, +Spd, L&D, Brash, Moonbow Lyn @ full hp:

48 wins vs. default enemies, 32 wins vs. people with Fury 3.

+Atk gets 46 vs. default, 31 versus Fury 3

 

Brave Sword+, +Atk, L&D, empty B-slot, Luna Lyn @ full hp:

50 wins vs. default enemies, 31 wins vs. people with Fury 3.

 

Sol Katti, +Spd, L&D, Brash, Moonbow Lyn @ 15 hp:

43 wins vs. default, 27 versus Fury 3. (Number goes down because Moonbow no longer procs).

+Atk gets 48 vs. default, 33 vs. fury 3. (Number goes up, even compared to full hp, despite the loss of Moonbow, because speed is a really shitty stat for a unit with desperation brash.)

 

Brave Sword+, +Atk, L&D, desperation, Luna Lyn @ 27 hp (ardent sacrifice):

50 wins vs. default, 31 wins vs. fury 3. Kind of obvious, but just listed to show that, if more than 1 combat is needed, Lyn keeps her full combat abilities with Brave Sword+ & Desperation. Usually you'll go breaker for more coverage.

Edited May 28, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Roflolxp54]

Holy cheese, another player fell victim to my defense team. 7 defense wins total for this week; best defense score is still 572.

Screwed over a player that owns a 5* vanilla +Spd/-HP Tharja that has yet to learn Spur Res 3 for 556 points.

[LordFrigid]

Update for 5090 (T18)

6am PDT 5/23: 29

4:45pm PDT 5/24: 48

4:45pm PDT 5/25: 70

4:45pm PDT 5/26: 77

4:45pm PDT 5/27: 83

4:45pm PDT 5/28: 86

Teams faced detailed in the previous post. Defense score is still 574.

I wonder if that'll stay top 100...not that it really matters with the tier system.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

That's more of an issue with Lyn's spread than Brave on a high-speed unit, to be honest.

And as I've already mentioned, I'm only talking about Lyn here. I'm not talking about Brave Sword being good or bad. I'm taking about Lyn-with-a-Brave-Sword being good or bad.

 

19 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Minerva is actually a minor advantage to Brave-sword Lyn: Brave-sword Lyn manages the 2-shot with versus +10 Minerva one extra Atk (obtainable at +2 merge), Sol Katti Lyn fails to double. Minerva runs L&D, not running Brave isn't enough to double her, you need buffs, and lots of it. (+4 spd isn't enough for +2 Sol, +Atk, L&D Lyn to double.)

Minerva can counterattack (unlike Spring Camilla), meaning if you've set up Brash Assault and Sol Katti's effects before-hand (which is kind of the entire point of using Brash Assault Lyn), +0 Lyn safely one-round kills even +10 Fury Minerva without needing buffs (assuming Minerva has no defensive buffs).

At +0, Brash Assault Lyn needs 4 Spd to one-round kill +0 Life and Death Minerva if Brash Assault isn't active for whatever reason, and Brave Sword Lyn needs 2 Atk to one-round kill +0 Fury Minerva.

 

40 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Lyn has issues versus people around Ryoma's spread regardless---first, she'll almost never have the speed to double Ryoma no matter what she does. Fury 3 Ryoma has 4 speed less than L&D Lyn, this means you'd need buffs just to double him. If Ryoma has 4 more speed from merges than Lyn (which is pretty rare), then you'll need spurs to double him, since the +4 cancels out a buff's +4.

Lyn can't afford +Spd boon because Ryoma with Fury 3 has enough bulk to survive the 2HKO from a +Spd Lyn.

High speed units with passable bulk is troublesome no matter what variant of Lyn you're running, it's, again, just the problem of Lyn being Lyn. (And Brave-sword Lyn can at least run Sword-breaker or something to actually Kill Ryoma & activate Galeforce to get the fuck out. This is actually a minor plus for Brave-Sword Lyn, since there's not much Brash Lyn can do vs. Ryoma without buffs.)

Again, the entire point of using Brash Assault Lyn is to have Brash Assault active, which allows Brash Assault Lyn to double attack Ryoma (assuming Ryoma isn't using Swordbreaker). +0 Brash Assault Lyn will kill +0 Fury Ryoma with damage to spare (assuming Ryoma doesn't have +Def), and +10 Brash Assault Life and Death Lyn is only short of killing +10 Fury Ryoma by only 1 HP (assuming Ryoma doesn't have +HP or +Def). As long as Ryoma doesn't have defensive buffs active (which is generally a fair assumption for infantry), Brash Assault Lyn will manage just fine with a Hone Atk buff (which can cover a difference of around 7 or 8 merge levels).

[Rafiel's Aria]

Oh well. It's looking like I probably won't get any defense wins this week. I think I may be able to push up my score a little bit when the day resets, but I'll be moving up regardless. Horses make my life so much easier. I've just been grinding SP all weekend, and finally got Xander Fury 3 and an assist skill for Ursula. Ursula still needs to max out her C skill and Titania needs close to another 500 SP to max out Guard and Hone Cavalry. I'll say that's a weekend well spent. Sooooo much HM for grinding. I love swimming in feathers.

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

And as I've already mentioned, I'm only talking about Lyn here. I'm not talking about Brave Sword being good or bad. I'm taking about Lyn-with-a-Brave-Sword being good or bad.

 

Minerva can counterattack (unlike Spring Camilla), meaning if you've set up Brash Assault and Sol Katti's effects before-hand (which is kind of the entire point of using Brash Assault Lyn), +0 Lyn safely one-round kills even +10 Fury Minerva without needing buffs (assuming Minerva has no defensive buffs).

At +0, Brash Assault Lyn needs 4 Spd to one-round kill +0 Life and Death Minerva if Brash Assault isn't active for whatever reason, and Brave Sword Lyn needs 2 Atk to one-round kill +0 Fury Minerva.

 

Again, the entire point of using Brash Assault Lyn is to have Brash Assault active, which allows Brash Assault Lyn to double attack Ryoma (assuming Ryoma isn't using Swordbreaker). +0 Brash Assault Lyn will kill +0 Fury Ryoma with damage to spare (assuming Ryoma doesn't have +Def), and +10 Brash Assault Life and Death Lyn is only short of killing +10 Fury Ryoma by only 1 HP (assuming Ryoma doesn't have +HP or +Def). As long as Ryoma doesn't have defensive buffs active (which is generally a fair assumption for infantry), Brash Assault Lyn will manage just fine with a Hone Atk buff (which can cover a difference of around 7 or 8 merge levels).

People Sol Katti Lyn fails to KO but brave sword manages:

Alfonse (he's a bonus unit this week, so it sort of matters), Celica, Chrom (expected, since he's basically Alfonse, and not very relevant), Eldigan (Brave-sword procs Luna for lethal, only 1 damage to spare, however), Florina, Gordin, Hector (lol), Henry, Hinoka  (L&D dies to both, but Fury 3 and empty-A lives through Sol katti), Jaffar, Jagen, Linde (lol---even L&D lives through Sol Katti), Odin, Reinhardt, default Robin (not very relevant, since TA3 walls both), Seliph (basically another Chrom), Stahl, Tiki (both versions, but Y!Tiki is more relevant---3 speed from Y!Tiki would prevent the x4 hit from brave, however, meaning +Spd buff would be needed to KO merged or Fury variants. That said, still a brave-sword+ advantage because Fury and +1 merge puts Tiki out of even +4 Atk buffed Sol Katti's range. Brave Sword and +4 speed kills up to +5 Fury 3.), 

People brave sword Lyn fails to KO but Sol Katti manages:

Eirika, Fir, Karel, Lon'qu, Lucina, S!Lucina (Fury 3 saves her from both variants, Life and Deaths saves her from Sol Katti but gets her killed by Brave-Sword), Lyn, Marth, Matthew (Fury 3 and L&D saves him), Olivia, Peri, Ryoma, Saizo (Fury 3 and L&D saves him---very common theme amongst people who can't counter Lyn), Selena (Fury 3 saves her, interestingly enough, but not really relevant), Takumi.

 

Taking only the people who matter into account, it's : Alfonse, Celica, Eldigan, Hector, Hinoka, Reinhardt, Linde, and Tiki versus Eirika, Lucina, S!Lucina, Olivia, Ryoma, and Takumi.

Four out of the six actually relevant people Brash gives an advantage against folds to sword-breaker, admittedly at the high cost of a B-slot skill. However, Sol Katti's advantage over brave-sword is 'narrower' in that it's easy for a strong blue to completely cover the people brave-sword Lyn misses, whereas Sol Katti Lyn somehow lets Hector through, meaning it has to be a blue unit capable of killing Hector if you want to cover for Sol Katti's misses compared to Brave Sword.

 

 

 

In terms of pure numbers, brave sword has: 92 wins vs. +0, 67 wins vs. +0, Fury 3, 50 wins vs. +10, 31 wins vs. +10, Fury 3.

Sol Katti has: 86 wins versus +0; 72 wins versus +0; Fury 3; 48 wins vs. +10; 33 wins vs. +10, Fury 3.

[After testing A-slots for a bit: Speed increasing skills other than Life and Death favor Sol Katti, while other skills favor Brave sword. Life and death goes either way, since it saves the faster ranged units from Sol Katti, but usually not brave, while also saving the medium speed melees against brave sword. It also kills a few people who are 'barely hanging on,' of course.]

 

And, of course, Brave Sword keeps all its wins if you use desperation for the B-slot, or it can take sword-breaker to go up to:

102 wins vs. +0; 84 wins vs. +0; Fury 3, 68 wins vs. +10; 49 wins vs. +10, Fury 3.

Edited May 29, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Korath88]

So even with my 1 death score of 4,732, I'm still around rank 5k in tier 16, while the promotion cutoff is 16k+. I guess everyone's getting screwed over by the new maps.

[ignis_z]

6 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Holy cheese, another player fell victim to my defense team. 7 defense wins total for this week; best defense score is still 572.

Screwed over a player that owns a 5* vanilla +Spd/-HP Tharja that has yet to learn Spur Res 3 for 556 points.

Dude could u write ur team? with skills etc for defence? Thanks.