Elieson Talks Teams & Units | Today, The Starting Three, Alfonse Day, Not a Fun Day

[Sire]

@Korath88 @Elieson

I somewhat enjoy speculating on occasion. With this new "Camus" info, if it is real, I'm definitely leaning towards Cain (maybe Xander), Gunter, Reinhart, and Camus. Camus has 171 over Ursula's 154, and is a Physical Blue to complement Reinhart being a Magical Blue. That, and I like Camus more than Ursula.

Now, as for Arena, Gunter/Camus/Reinhardt/Eldigan may have a total of 666 rating. My current Arena team (Ryoma/Marth/Emphraim/Camilla) may have a rating of 682. If trying to go for super high ratings, I may try to replace Reinhart with Abel to gain a new total of 671. If Xander's story stats are his caps, replace Eldigan with Xander for an additional 4 points, giving a new total of 675.

However, an important note on the Arena - set a ranking goal and stick with it. If you are comfortable with making it into the top 30000 for 1.5k feathers, then I think you will be fine running more "for fun" and "gimmicky" teams. However, if you plan on trying to make it within the top 10000 for 2k feathers or more, be prepared to put more value on units with higher stat values and units that you have merged that are 5* rank.

Here are some total stats for Cavalry units. Source: FE:Heroes Wiki - Stats Table

 

Total Stats
- Xander: 186 (Using Chapter 9-5 as a basis. May not be representative of his true playable stats.)
- Eldigan: 182
- Eliwood: 171
- Stahl: 169
- Leo: 159
- Cain: 157

- Frederick: 165
- Gunter: 164
- Cecilia: 155

- Sully: 176
- Camus: 171 (Possible datamined information.)
- Peri 168
- Abel: 162
- Ursula: 154 (Possible datamined information.)
- Reinhart: 149
- Jagen: ???

Clarine: 162
Elise: 151

* * * * *
As for my closing thoughts, I apologize to Elieson for potentially hijacking his thread with my own ramblings and observations. I tend to do a lot of theorycrafting in my own time, and sometimes I get caught up typings out walls of text without realizing it.

Now, as for the Eldigan write-up, it is amazing! However, under "who I suggest to run" it still says Reinhardt instead of Eldigan. May want to get that fixed. :)

Edited March 1, 2017 by Sire

[Elieson]

30 minutes ago, Sire said:

@Korath88 @Elieson

I somewhat enjoy speculating on occasion. With this new "Camus" info, if it is real, I'm definitely leaning towards Cain (maybe Xander), Gunter, Reinhart, and Camus. Camus has 171 over Ursula's 154, and is a Physical Blue to complement Reinhart being a Magical Blue. That, and I like Camus more than Ursula.

Now, as for Arena, Gunter/Camus/Reinhardt/Eldigan may have a total of 666 rating. My current Arena team (Ryoma/Marth/Emphraim/Camilla) may have a rating of 682. If trying to go for super high ratings, I may try to replace Reinhart with Abel to gain a new total of 671. If Xander's story stats are his caps, replace Eldigan with Xander for an additional 4 points, giving a new total of 675.

However, an important note on the Arena - set a ranking goal and stick with it. If you are comfortable with making it into the top 30000 for 1.5k feathers, then I think you will be fine running more "for fun" and "gimmicky" teams. However, if you plan on trying to make it within the top 10000 for 2k feathers or more, be prepared to put more value on units with higher stat values and units that you have merged that are 5* rank.

Here are some total stats for Cavalry units. Source: FE:Heroes Wiki - Stats Table

  Hide contents

Total Stats
- Xander: 186 (Using Chapter 9-5 as a basis. May not be representative of his true playable stats.)
- Eldigan: 182
- Eliwood: 171
- Stahl: 169
- Leo: 159
- Cain: 157

- Frederick: 165
- Gunter: 164
- Cecilia: 155

- Sully: 176
- Camus: 171 (Possible datamined information.)
- Peri 168
- Abel: 162
- Ursula: 154 (Possible datamined information.)
- Reinhart: 149
- Jagen: ???

Clarine: 162
Elise: 151

* * * * *
As for my closing thoughts, I apologize to Elieson for potentially hijacking his thread with my own ramblings and observations. I tend to do a lot of theorycrafting in my own time, and sometimes I get caught up typings out walls of text without realizing it.

Now, as for the Eldigan write-up, it is amazing! However, under "who I suggest to run" it still says Reinhardt instead of Eldigan. May want to get that fixed. :)

I may start listing the ratings & stats of units to run in the "theme" or "who to run with" area in full, just like you did here, for convenience. I built an excel sheet that basically sums up what's already known (like FEHWrangler.com already did, but I optimized some filter options and threw in battle calculations for kicks).

Thanks for the catch though on the last part, and good suggestion on how to approach Fun in the Arena. FWIW Jagen is 175 btw. You also forgot Olwen in your list (lol149)

Edited March 1, 2017 by Elieson

[ExpendableExtra]

I hear that Lunatic inflates enemy stats by 10% so Xander is definitely going to have a lower total stat number when he comes out. Overall I would think he will be much like Eldigan in being a physically tanky and have a powerful strike, but is slow and magically brittle sword cavalry. Main difference is that he will have less stats in exchange for having distant counter built into his legendary weapon that doesn't hurt him every time he gets into a fight.

[Arcanite]

Looks like Klein won the poll, so when are you gonna put that up? Not to tell you what to do or anything but can you make a comparison/analysis with him vs. Gordin when it comes to compatibility and whatnot?

[Elieson]

3 hours ago, Arcanite said:

Looks like Klein won the poll, so when are you gonna put that up? Not to tell you what to do or anything but can you make a comparison/analysis with him vs. Gordin when it comes to compatibility and whatnot?

Tomorrow is Klein day. I'd make it Reglay Day just for the sweet name but I'll probably spend most of my time crunching numbers between Gordin and Klein, with some comparison to Niles and Jeorge somehow. There's not too many archers, but Brave Bow archers have weird stats (well, more like no stats). ayyyyyy

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, Elieson said:

Tomorrow is Klein day. I'd make it Reglay Day just for the sweet name but I'll probably spend most of my time crunching numbers between Gordin and Klein, with some comparison to Niles and Jeorge somehow. There's not too many archers, but Brave Bow archers have weird stats (well, more like no stats). ayyyyyy

No Attack stat, you mean.

Klein looks interesting on paper, to say the least.  I've enjoyed your write-ups so far, and look forward to what you have to say about Clarine's older bro.

[Elieson]

Well guys like you decided, it's Klein Time. The elder Reglay child and son of Pent and Louise, Klein comes into the game as a confident big brother with...something to prove? Well, he really does have something to prove, since he has a Brave Bow, which automatically means that he's competing with Gordin as the only other ranged Brave melee attacker in the game. He's also a brother, and that's the theme of this game, right? Is he worth the time and Orbs? If you already have Gordin, should you replace him with Klein? What about Takumi...how does he compare to the S-tier headache that is Takumi? Let's see what he has first.

Count Klein's Account

When Klein was first announced, the internet was hopeful. His skillset came out first from the bulletin board, and he was immediately known to have a Brave Bow? What? Another Brave Bow user? Wait a second, Brave Bow & Death Blow? Everything looked so good for him on paper. Wait, he also has Quick Riposte? This lets him return two strikes to anyone who attacks him, meaning he has a psuedo-Brave effect for EP if unharmed, which nobody else in the game has. AND A PROC? Glacies is a pretty intense skill, what with its 4 point cooldown meaning that after two turns, you can drop it out and probably deal some hefty damage with it. Fir and Felicia both have it and they both have sky high res (31 and 38 respectively) so this means that where Gordin is a more physical absorber, Klein may be a more magical absorber. This gives Klein an interesting niche, since it lets him bait mages with Quick Riposte, then return fire on the next turn and have Glacies prepped immediately after. What the heck, IS?!

Then we saw his stats. Atk average of 37? Yawn. 28 Spd after Brave's -5 applied? Blah. 20 Defense? No way. 24 Avg Res?! The stars almost aligned for our Archer meta, giving us something else to hope for that might compete with the oodles of Sword Lords and Manaketes that fill the Arena, but these stats aren't anything to write home about. Aside from Res, Klein boasts some of the lowest stats out of any archer in the meta, and most notably, -4 Atk compared to Gordin, who runs Vantage and some pretty high defense. 

And that abyssmal 149 Rating for the Arena...well, he's still a good unit right?

Wait a sec though. Deathblow gives +6, making that 37 into a 43 on Player Phase, when Brave's effect naturally kicks in. 37 Atk vs most mages is also respectable, so maybe it's not all that bad. As long as he isn't doubled, or one shotted with his super middling 40 Hp, he should be ok, right? Pick your battles, and he should pop out on top, right? Quick Riposte for enemy phase lets him double back if he's able to attack back at all, yea...

Currently, Klein is only available at 5*, so I'll update the list with skill unlockables as other versions become available.

Stats:

HP     45
ATK   37
DEF   20
SPD   28 (includes -5 from Brave)
RES   24
RATING 149

Maximum Skills:

☆☆☆☆☆

1. Brave Bow+ (7Mt, Attacks Twice on Player Phase, 2 Rng)
2. Glacies [4-turn Cooldown] (Adds 80% of Res to strike)
3. Death Blow 3 (+6 Atk on Player Phase)
4. Quick Riposte 3 (If Current HP is greater than or equal to 70% of Max HP, performs a second attack if attacked).

On the Offense

Now we get to the nitty gritty numbers.

• Neutral Atk (v Anyone that isn't a Flier) [37]

This is where Klein's mediocre stats begin to shine in a strange light due to his skills on Player Phase. Brave weapons exists to rock during your turn, and that's just what he needs to do to maximize his offense. Assuming he has no support, 37 Attack is tiny, but when buffed by himself to 43 attack, it's respectable and since there are no units in the game with a natural defense of 43 or higher (+Def Hinata would actually meet this requirement, and is the only unit to do so even with a +Def nature), he's capable of harming pretty much everyone.

28 Speed keeps Klein safe from getting doubled by anyone running less than 33 speed, which is respectable. He's not going to naturally double many people with his stats, but Quick Riposte 3 ensures that Klein could have 0 speed and give no f*cks on the defensive, as he'll double you anyway just because he wants to (if you're silly enough to attack him from range). This means that on opening, Klein boasts 43*2 attacks to everybody in the game on Player Phase. This positively ensures that any flier will be killed, Even Beruka with her massive 37 Defense and 46 HP. This is due to the damage calculation of:

• ([Unit Atk Stat] * 1.5[Effective v Type bonus]) - [Enemy Def] = Damage
  • (43*1.5) - 37 = 64.5 - 37 = 27.5, rounded down to 27 per hit.
  • 27 *2 will still kill all Berukas, meaning that even without the Quick Riposte 3 bonus, Klein can typically kill any flier. With QR3 bonus, all fliers are obliterated.

Obviously, Klein wants buffs to his attack stat, with supplementary buffs to speed available on the chance that he is being used to tank slower or less powerful ranged units, so that his Glacies counter goes out a little faster. Healing support can help him maintain his QR3 bonus, which fortunately, his sister can help him with, but it's risky due to his 28 speed being doubled by common threats like Takumi and Linde, and 20 Def getting him nowhere fast.

Two physical strikes on Player Phase for 43 damage is alright, but is this better than Gordin's always double strike of 41 with Vantage? Let's put it into perspective:

• Vs Fliers, let's just assume they both win. Gordin runs 41 attack even with his Attack +3 skill
• 43*2 vs 41*2, the math is downright silly to compare. 
  • Klein outdamages Gordin on any and all player phases. Enough said.
• Enemy Phase Combat
  • Klein's fluxuating 43 -or- 37 attack is of course, inconsistent, but 37*2 often beats 41*1 in terms of enemy phase combat, Gordin's 41 Atk will never outdo Klein's 37*2 Atk in terms of damage to opponents (33 Defense is the key value here). If an opponent has buffs or a +Def nature that would push them over 33 Defense, Gordin would outdamage Klein. Saizo runs a natural 33 Defense and has 2-range and Henry has 32 Defense, but the next closest option would be opposing Gordins with a +Def nature (29+3) and the difference is inconsequential.
  • Gordin's Vantage requires him to be harmed and the risk of Gordin getting attacked and then getting attacked again, when the meta doesn't run more than 2 ranged units in matches under normal circumstances, Gordin's rarely facing this situation and therefore is unlikely to utilize Vantage more than once per game, and therefore cannot take advantage of it to attempt to outdamage defense-buffed enemies.
    • Klein > Gordin in terms of damage on Enemy Phase
  • Quick Riposte 3 ensures second strikes, while Vantage ensures initial strikes. Vantage requires Gordin to have successfully survived with his 43HP/24Spd/29Def/17Res, which is entirely possible as long as Minerva or Hana [Melee] and Nino/Tharja/Merric/Odin/Robins don't attack him (since they one-round kill neutral Gordin). Based on this, anyone with more than [50 Physical attack / 34 Magical attack] and [29 speed]will kill Gordin, so watch out for those natures and buffs.
    • QR3 triggers upfront and works on Enemy Phase only, if attacked from range
    • Vantage which requires Gordin to be hurt, and doesn't do that much to help unless Gordin is attacked by a Mage/Archer/2-range Manakete/Dagger user.
      • QR3 > Vantage in this scenario, as even in defensive play, letting your archer get whalloped as bait is risky and largely unnecessary, but Klein gets much more out of being hit than Gordin, despite Gordin being able to take physical abuse more safely.
  • Klein has Glacies, which means every 5th attack gets a 22 point boost (+/- 1 based on Res nature).
  • Gordin has Attack +3, pushing his raw number up from 38 to 41
    • Gordin's PP attack is still less even with this boost. Klein wins
• Klein > Gordin in terms of raw damage

Versus 1-range Opponents (Manaketes included): 

   This needs to be looked at differently, since colors don't matter to archers.

   Klein's 28 speed after Brave deficit makes him one of the slower archers. 

   At its core, 43Atk*2 means that Klein has the ability to ORKO a lot of units with hefty Atk support, but on its own is not super impressive. Units in particular that get ORKO'd at a neutral HP/Def nature...

• Reds: Caeda, Eliwood, Hana, Lilina, Palla, Raigh, Sanaki, Tharja
• Blues: Azura, Catria, Cordelia, Est, Florina, Hinoka, Linde, Olwen, Peri, Shanna, Tsubaki
• Greens: Anna, Beruka, Cecilia, Camilla, Cherche, Julia, Minerva, Narcian, Nino
• Colorless: Clarine, Elise, Felicia, Gaius, Jeorge, Kagero, other Kleins, Lachesis, Sakura, Setsuna, Wrys

Additionally, while taking a hit back (if possible, depending on the opponent), Klein will double with his 28 speed for a KO to add to the above list:

• Reds: Leo, Sophia
• Greens: Hawkeye
• Blues: Reinhardt
• Colorless: -N/A

With a +Atk nature, assume +8 damage. This offsets many +Def natures (turning damage into +2 for most units) and +HP natures (turning into +5 for most units) in terms of damage. Frustratingly enough, being +Atk and battling people with +Def natures doesn't make enough of a difference with +1 dmg per hit.

If you're running +Atk and they are +HP, you can also add to the above lists of units that don't need to be doubled to be killed:

• Reds: Lon'qu, Olivia, Lucina, A!Tiki
• Greens: Raven
• Blues: Jagen, Sully, Odin
• Colorless: Takumi

Lastly, if you're +Atk and they're neither +HP or +Def, add to the above lists of KO-able units:

• Reds: Eirika, Lyn, Fir
• Greens: Fae
• Blues: Abel
• Colorless: -No others

Bottom line, this means that in terms of key kills, +Atk Klein kills any variant of Takumi that isn't +Def, and also has potential with +Atk to kill common lords of Eirika/Lyn/Lucina/Eliwood and lots of other key units (Tharja, Cordelia, Camilla, Nino, Kagero) with minor stat variances of his vs their own. Since +Def, +Res and +HP are rarely run by choice in the arena by the most optimal of MinMaxers, 

Also, assume that all 4* units have 3 less HP and Defense (potentially 4 less HP, if they naturally have a very high HP count, thank you Ice Dragon for that). This means that +Atk Kleins can kill 4* Sharenas, Marths, Ryomas and  This also includes 4* Roy, as Roy suffers from having -5 Def and -3 HP, which Klein can capitalize on. 

Versus 2-range Opponents (Mages/Daggers/Bows/Staves):

   Quick Riposte 3 allows Klein to double back people on Enemy Phase that attack him, but since that exists only on Enemy Phase, we still have the raw 43 Atk (47 with +Atk). In short, if their name is mentioned above, they die without getting the chance to counterattack. Key info to be aware of is that anyone not mentioned that has 2-range access can counter Kleins attempting to chip, and the units that Klein doubles and kills will secure a hit on him (Leo, Sophia, A!Tiki with Lightning Breath, etc).

On the Defense

Durability? Klein? Hah! Not really. Klein's 28 speed is as I said, an almost safe speed. If you choose to run the suboptimal +Spd version of Klein, you have 31, a speed still doubled by key Arena units like Lucina, Lyn, Linde, Nino, Sharena, +Spd Takumi, +Spd Eirika, +Spd Marth, +Spd Ryoma. +Spd F!Corrin and even +Spd Olivia. Popular heavy single-hitters like armors and most greens/colorless aren't strong enough to eliminate him without help.

Units getting one hit on you will likely pull you out of QR3 range, and even though you may receive a nice buff to your Glacies counter, you want to avoid getting hit as much as possible to prolong the effectiveness of QR3's quad-hit potential. 

Additionally, getting doubled yourself is bad. 20 Defense means that you're most likely dying to anything that doubles you, and since you want to run a +Atk or +Spd nature above all else, you'll likely have a -Def, -Res or -HP nature to balance it out. Assuming neutral though, anything that doubles you with 40 Atk (physical) or 44 Atk (magical) will kill you.

Dealing with Reds:

If you're closed in on by any of the sword lords, you're gonna take a beating. Chrom/M!Corrin/Roy won't double you but they will leave you with only a handful of HP. Alfonse fits in here too, with his huge 51+6 attack leaving you with 3 HP. Him being +Atk will oneshot you unless you are +HP/+Def. Fortunately, red magical units aren't as threatening. +Atk Tharja can double you for the kill, but running +Res/+HP yourself lets you avoid this. +Spd Y!Tiki can do the same, but a +Res nature will save your skin. Running -Def or -HP lets Olivia score KOs on you

Dealing with Blues:

   A bit less terrifying are the Blues. While most will knock you out of QR3 range, few will outright kill you. Azura, Catria, Linde, Peri, M!Robin, Sharena, Shanna and Sully will wreck you via doubling for high damage (Linde will take a high powered single hit back from Klein though), Giving yourself a +Spd nature will save you from getting ORKO'd by Neutral speed Catria/Shanna, and a +Res or +HP nature will save you from Neutral or not +Atk Lindes. Linde commonly runs +Spd to hit a paramount 42 speed for doubling all variants of Takumis and Sword Lords, so this may not be an uncommon sight.

Dealing with Colorless:

   This batch is interesting. Saizo has the power to just barely ORKO you, as he has exactly enough Atk and Spd to so do naturally. Takumi is a bit more threatening, having some extra attack to dish out pain with. Running +Spd vs a +Atk Saizo would save your bacon. Setsuna also walls you with Bowbreaker, but not insurmountable. A +Atk nature lets your Brave hit kick in and still kill her on the offense, but on the defense, a +Atk nature from her with Bowbreaker will do you in, by cutting QR3 out of the equation and letting her double you no matter what speeds you have. +Atk Gaius can also defeat you, with 22*2 damage just barely snagging the KO. Kagero doubles you with effective, and will kill you, but takes a hit back.

Dealing with Greens:

   If you're going to get hit by a green, let it not be Anna/Minerva/Nino. They all double you for a smooth KO. No nature variants on Klein will save him here...actually, a +Res would save Klein from unbuffed Ninos, but who runs Nino without buffs readily available? Nobody else, not even with a +Atk or +Spd nature, can ORKO you. Fortunatly, Anna's extremely rare, Minerva gets annihilated by you even without a QR3 bonus and Nino does too, so just be careful.

Other Synergy and Team Options:

• Dancers
  • Olivia, Azura
    • Two turns to nuke is nuclear. 4 strikes on a single turn assures that your second round of combat will open with Glacies, giving you some extra punch that even without buffs, can make a difference in being able to do things that you couldn't normally do, like ORKO Fae and OHKO Takumi. Combine with Hone Attack 2 from Olivia at Level 3 (Lv3 Olivia grants you +3 Attack from her Hone Attack 2, and she unlocks Dance here as well), and you've got a neutral nature 50 Attack that is extremely threating. Hone Attack only lasts for your next action, so if you're going full burst, you won't have the +3 for your second round after being danced, but you'll have Glacies available if you've exhausted all of your 4 shots in the first round, which will be useful 100% of the time.
• Attack Buffing Units
  • Sharena, Olivia, Eirika, Hector, Lilina, Sanaki, Alfonse...and many more
    • Klein's not sticking around for his stellar defense, but his impressive offense. Units that run Hone Attack gives +4 Attack to Klein, letting him do his job harder. He can snipe over barriers like rivers and mountains, and can blast units from range with safety, that an attack buff could secure a smooth KO with, like against Takumis and Lyns. Nino, F!Corrin, Olivia and Gwendolyn all run Hone Atk for buffs here, and are all valuable units,
    • Sharena and Hana run Rally Attack, which last for the entire turn. These don't stack with Hone Atk but do with Spur Atk, and offer +4 Attack. Sharena is a great unit in that she also buffs Defense, giving Klein some added help to keep his arrows flying and saving him from a few narrow KOs by offsetting Neutral Def or -Def natures. 
    • Units that run Spur Atk 3 grant +4 to adjacent battling Klein, and stacks with Hone Attack or Rally attack to give a full +8 Atk (55 attack with potential four-striking). It's very likely going to die unless it's an Armor unit by now, and fortunately, high value units run Spur Atk 3, including Lucina, Hector and Lilina. Other Brave-wpn units like Ogma and Barst also run Spur Atk 3
• Common coverage units
  • Sharena, Ephraim, Effie, Gwendolyn
    • Klein's biggest threats are those that can hurt him, and Reds have the most potential to kill him outright. Blues that can tank Sword Lords can offer the most general protection while also giving buffs in their own way, while other coverage for heavy walls like Hector and Draug can slow down other high-defense opponents that would otherwise tank out the arrows and close in to kill on their own
• Units that can move Klein
  • Swap/Reposition/Smite/Shove/etc
    • Sometimes Klein needs to poke in, fire some arrows and jet out. Units with these skills can get him out of danger, if you need to retreat and reposition and make the followup turn more effective. Selena's Reposition and Nino/Fae's Draw Back let Klein get pulled around very effectively.
• Defense Debuffing Units
  • Peri, Ephraim, Raven
    • If you can't improve your Str, lower their Def. This gives other units the role of chipper in some cases, but also lets other units push ahead and bait with Threaten Def dropping their defense by quite a lot (-5 at full level), while Seal Def from Ephraim lets him heavily decrease the survival requirements for units like Draug, Effie and Gwendolyn that your opponent may have. Ephraim's Siegmund also runs Hone Atk 2, which can allow for more flexible positioning.
• Attack Debuffing Units
  • Sharena (5* via Fensalir), Fae, Cain, Hawkeye, Azama
    • You can afford to let Klein tank a hit here or there if you reduce the Attack of nearby enemies while maintaining Klein's position. This goes against Klein's job but if you need him to take a hit, he can still dish out heavy damage via double strikes on Player phase, and the reduced Atk can occasionally allow him to utilize QR3 and double back on Enemy phase. It's a gamble, and a low priority at that.
    • Fae runs fantastic durability and with Renewal, will definitely do her job tanking out greens/reds/colorless herself, while dropping their attack. The best option here would be to reduce the attack of an opponent that Klein can't kill without taking a hit, in the hopes that QR3 remains in effect. Azama can help maintain Klein's QR3 while debuffing attack himself and chipping where he can.
• Speed Debuffing Units
  • Takumi, Shanna, Selena
    • If you can't make them weaker, double them. Takumi offers some good coverage for dancer+Klein teams, and the -Spd allows injured Kleins to continue their efforts and potentially double opponents, or avoid getting doubled by threats like Sword Lords himself. It's more of a survival tool than a killing aid.

Who I suggest to run?

• Klein wants to shower his enemies with arrows. Since he is a huge threat to so many characters, he wants units that let him push his attack power to the max, while also offering coverage against common threats.
  • Olivia: A Dancer that buffs Attack? Sign me up. You'll be sacrificing red offense somewhat, so you'll want some heavy green and blue powerhouses to offset the lack of a strong swordie, especially to tackle Manaketes that can counter via 2-range
  • Azura: Azura can dance and while she can't buff Klein's offense, she does offer him Res to let him bide a bit more time when dealing with mage, in particular, Tharja, whom Azura herself hard counters with her Sapphire Lance
  • Sharena: Rally Attack and the combination of Fensalir/Fortify Def give Klein what he wants, more attack & durability. Her good stats cover many challenges, as she's safe from most Sword Lords that commonly threaten any team, and can even hold off Manaketes that Klein has trouble ORKOing himself
  • Lucina: Strong red coverage and Spur Attack lets her stack offensive powerups with everyone mentioned above, along with tackling Hector, Klein's biggest threat even with buffs
  • Ephraim: Siegmund and Threaten Def allow Ephraim to buff Klein's Atk & lower enemy Def at the same time, giving him loads of utility. He's a heavy hitter himself, and can tank most reds for a while, but he's a bit slow.
  • Eirika: Buffs Speed and Attack power, complimenting Nino nicely and also giving Klein exactly what he needs to push offense out the roof
  • Nino: Offers strong magical coverage against physical tanks and also buffs Klein while doing so via Hone Atk. The Passive buff lets her improve Klein then go off to do her own thing.
    • Cain/Abel/Camilla/Barst/Ogma: Brave weapon users that reap benefits from your atk-boost heavy team
    • Blue Armors: Effie/Gwendolyn can pull in 
    • Marth/Cain/Frederick: Teleporters via Wings of Mercy that can swoop in and block retreating Kleins from enemies that he can't finish and threaten him hard
• I'd Ideally run a team of:
  • Lucina/Azura/Hector/Klein
    • Covers every color with a heavy hitter, and grants attack buffs via Lucina and Hector
  • Eirika/Nino/Olivia/Klein
    • Buffs circulate from Eirika/Nino/Olivia, and while raw offense is a bit low, high burst damage from Nino and Klein can cover anything that comes in. Eirika can't easily hard-cover Hector, but she does knock him out of Armads' force counter range, letting Nino score the kill on a followup. Klein can handle Reds on his own with an attack buff and Olivia dancing, with Eirika and Nino offering enough even with WTD to finish what Klein may be unable to finish himself.
  • Sharena/Nino/Olivia/Klein
    • Sharena/Nino/Olivia all boost offense in some way, and Olivia dances. Sharena is a very safe Blue option, and Nino can power through Blue/Green threats with ease. Stacking buffs won't happen here, so unit placement is relatively flexible

 Final Words

Klein's scary. Scarier than Gordin, and much scarier than any other common archer. He needs coverage though, and unlike Takumi, plays a more Wait-and-Prey game, where he bursts out to maximize damage. This is a common playstyle for units like him, such as Nino, Julia, Linde, Lucina...it's not the most unique, and therefore, is outclassed. Klein runs a pitiful sub-150 Rating, meaning that he's not the most rewarding in Arenas...heck, he's very unrewarding. He, like Reinhardt, makes up with it for sheer power in a team designed to maximize his offensive capabilities. His misleadingly middling numbers are offset by his Brave weapon being neutral against everybody and Death Blow makes him naturally threatening, so to capitalize on it, a +Atk > +Spd nature is recommended, with probably a +Def nature to let him dodge death from intimidating reds being the next best thing.

Personally, in terms of Archers, I'd call Klein the second best after Takumi. He requires specific assistance to push his strong points to the max, while Takumi is pretty strong on his own. Defensively, Klein offers some unusual but still helpful support via Quick Riposte against weaker foes that Gordin simply cannot match with Vantage support, as you shouldn't let your archers be getting assaulted more than once per game anyway, especially from 2-range. I'd rate Klein high on the fun meter but low on the reward meter, if I was qualified to do so.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Elieson
Misrepped Quick Riposte 3. More accurate numbers up now.

[Elieson]

Also, I've updated my poll, having talked about three units from the current Focus (Lachesis/Sanaki/Olwen don't seem as interesting to me to cover now, and the public doesn't seem super interested in them either).

[ExpendableExtra]

Sorry to burst the bubble here but QR only works if he is attacked. It is the same effect that Hector has built into his legendary weapon.

"Unit automatically makes a follow-up attack if attacked at HP ≥ 70% "

So Klein is not likely to 4x enemies while attacking unless he gets a speed buff and they get a speed nerfed. QR only works as a bait against mages and other 2 ranges on EP.

Edited March 2, 2017 by ExpendableExtra

[ILikeKirbys]

Wow, these are really well-done, mate. Very in-depth. Makes me wish I had pulled Reinhardt or Eldigan (Klein sounds cool, but the other two sound like they would be amazing with a little support... and I have Jagen and Frederick, so I can probably pull off a weaker version of your cavalry team). And that I hadn't turned all the Gunters I got into feathers weeks ago, haha. Well, at least I'll probably pull them during the next focus, given my luck with these things...

And you kinda did cover Olwen briefly back in the Reinhardt post, didn't you? Basically, she trades Reinhardt's high power and Vantage/Goad Cavalry for better (but still not great) SPD and RES (with Warding Blow to make her a bit tankier vs mages on her turn) and Spur RES... except that the SPD and RES gains aren't really substantial enough to matter, the lack of power makes her not as big a threat offensively as Reinhardt, and Spur RES isn't as good a buff as Goad Cavalry, right? Or did I misunderstand?
Though I suppose Olwen could possibly be a good Reinhardt substitute for teams that aren't comprised entirely of cavalry, since her stat-buff skill doesn't require her allies to be on horses to benefit from it... Might even fit slightly better than him if you paired her with Nino, which might actually work fairly well for both of them. Olwen gets Hone ATK's +4 ATK to patch up her lower damage, Nino gets Spur RES for 5 extra damage on Gronnblade (do Spur skills give additional damage to the -Blade weapons like the Hone/Fortify skills do?) and Olwen's Blue brave tome to soften up or KO Red units for her. Dunno if that would work, and there are probably better choices than Olwen for a Nino team, but it's a thought.

Also, I can't vote in your updated poll for some reason (maybe because I voted on the original one? I dunno how polls work here so...), but for your next topic, I'd like to see you cover Nino, partially because she'll be a focus unit soon and people should probably have some idea how she works (primarily all the various ways to abuse Gronnblade, of which I'm sure there are many) before they throw her at Ursula, partially because I'd like to know how exactly Gronnblade works.

Or maybe Hana, since she's required for a Lunatic quest this month and has such weirdly lopsided stats with Life and Death (Alright HP, super-high Attack and Speed, paper-thin defenses). I know she's amazing for murdering armors (Armorslayer + aforementioned super-high Attack = dead armors, probably always but I feel like there might be a Blue one that lives through this), but is there any reason to run her over a different swordy?

[Elieson]

22 minutes ago, ExpendableExtra said:

"Unit automatically makes a follow-up attack if attacked at HP ≥ 70% "

 

I can read >.<

 

I completely misunderstood Klein's QR3 approach then, and need to cut many of my numbers in half. UGH I may as well invalidate my entire above analysis!

[Elieson]

1 hour ago, ExpendableExtra said:

Sorry to burst the bubble here but QR only works if he is attacked. It is the same effect that Hector has built into his legendary weapon.

"Unit automatically makes a follow-up attack if attacked at HP ≥ 70% "

So Klein is not likely to 4x enemies while attacking unless he gets a speed buff and they get a speed nerfed. QR only works as a bait against mages and other 2 ranges on EP.

I re-ran all of my numbers and updated my stuff accordingly. After spending hours on Klein today, I'm a bit burned out and not up for calculating all of the Defensive counter options for Archers/Dagger users/Tomes that can attack him and get countered back with or without Quick Riposte 3 in effect. 

[Kiran]

18 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Or maybe Hana, since she's required for a Lunatic quest this month and has such weirdly lopsided stats with Life and Death (Alright HP, super-high Attack and Speed, paper-thin defenses). I know she's amazing for murdering armors (Armorslayer + aforementioned super-high Attack = dead armors, probably always but I feel like there might be a Blue one that lives through this), but is there any reason to run her over a different swordy?

Blue armors will defiantly live through it (but will take considerable damage) and will attack you back to ORKO. I used her for the sword mastery quest and it was painful. The problem with Hana is that she basically wants to avoid getting hit at all costs. She is the glassiest of glass cannons.

On the positive side, she has some of the best stats for both attack and speed. So she'll double most units, even neutral Lucina, and hit hard while doing so. She can easily dispatch practically most if not all greens (Hector will hit back as he lives by 1 freaking hp, assuming you are both neutral, but he dies in one round as Hana doubles him), colorless, and reds (Marth, Lucina, Roy all get ORKO but both versions of Tiki live) in one round. But often she is only able to do this ONCE. Because due to her horrible defenses, the counter from the enemy can easily put her in the single digits. A healer (especially one with rehabilitate, as Hana will surely be below 50%) might be some help in this situation.

Her main flaw is that she dies too easily. Many blue units can easily ORKO her and she is a one-time use unit.

Sorry for kinda hijacking the thread on Hana. Her stat distribution really annoyed me when doing the sword mastery quest. 

[Elieson]

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Or maybe Hana, since she's required for a Lunatic quest this month and has such weirdly lopsided stats with Life and Death (Alright HP, super-high Attack and Speed, paper-thin defenses). I know she's amazing for murdering armors (Armorslayer + aforementioned super-high Attack = dead armors, probably always but I feel like there might be a Blue one that lives through this), but is there any reason to run her over a different swordy?

 

2 minutes ago, Kiran said:

On the positive side, she has some of the best stats for both attack and speed.

For clarity, she has the 2nd highest natural speed in the game (second to Lon'qu by 1 point), and the only units with more physical power than a full grown Hana (assuming same natures of course) are Alfonse [on Player Phase with Death Blow active], and Effie (well, by a lot).

[Sire]

Another great analysis! I would like Klein to mess around with, but I don't see him being on my Arena teams unless he is a Focus and I actually have him.

As for the updated poll, it seems I cannot vote in it. I assume it is because I participated in the last one, but since the poll is new and different, I am not sure why it will not let me vote.

[Elieson]

2 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Also, I can't vote in your updated poll for some reason (maybe because I voted on the original one? I dunno how polls work here so...), but for your next topic, I'd like to see you cover Nino, partially because she'll be a focus unit soon and people should probably have some idea how she works (primarily all the various ways to abuse Gronnblade, of which I'm sure there are many) before they throw her at Ursula, partially because I'd like to know how exactly Gronnblade works.

 

12 minutes ago, Sire said:

As for the updated poll, it seems I cannot vote in it. I assume it is because I participated in the last one, but since the poll is new and different, I am not sure why it will not let me vote.

How odd. I just tried updating my Poll again. I overwrote the same question by adding choices, rather than deleting that question and adding a new one. Try voting again and let me know if it works. I haven't used the new forum's poll function yet so this is a learning experience for us all.

[Kiran]

7 minutes ago, Elieson said:

 

How odd. I just tried updating my Poll again. I overwrote the same question by adding choices, rather than deleting that question and adding a new one. Try voting again and let me know if it works. I haven't used the new forum's poll function yet so this is a learning experience for us all.

Sadly its a no-go. The poll still won't allow me to vote. 

[ILikeKirbys]

45 minutes ago, Elieson said:

 

For clarity, she has the 2nd highest natural speed in the game (second to Lon'qu by 1 point), and the only units with more physical power than a full grown Hana (assuming same natures of course) are Alfonse [on Player Phase with Death Blow active], and Effie (well, by a lot).

Wow, that's amazing. I almost can't believe they gave her away for free until I look at her Defense and Resistance

51 minutes ago, Kiran said:

Blue armors will defiantly live through it (but will take considerable damage) and will attack you back to ORKO. I used her for the sword mastery quest and it was painful. The problem with Hana is that she basically wants to avoid getting hit at all costs. She is the glassiest of glass cannons.

On the positive side, she has some of the best stats for both attack and speed. So she'll double most units, even neutral Lucina, and hit hard while doing so. She can easily dispatch practically most if not all greens (Hector will hit back as he lives by 1 freaking hp, assuming you are both neutral, but he dies in one round as Hana doubles him), colorless, and reds (Marth, Lucina, Roy all get ORKO but both versions of Tiki live) in one round. But often she is only able to do this ONCE. Because due to her horrible defenses, the counter from the enemy can easily put her in the single digits. A healer (especially one with rehabilitate, as Hana will surely be below 50%) might be some help in this situation.

Her main flaw is that she dies too easily. Many blue units can easily ORKO her and she is a one-time use unit.

Sorry for kinda hijacking the thread on Hana. Her stat distribution really annoyed me when doing the sword mastery quest. 

Thanks, mate. Confirmed basically what I thought about her (she's basically how I remember her being in Fates, except she can't dodge here so her defenses being awful matters more), and helped me figure out who I want to use on a party with her.

And, sorry for kinda-hijacking the thread too, Elieson. Though I do have one more set of units to suggest for future analysis: Alfonse, Sharena and Anna. I know Sharena can be pretty good, but I know next to nothing about the other two (Anna I dropped very quickly since she kept dying due to poor defenses, and Alfonse joined her on the bench after he had 6 Speed at level 10 so I switched him out for Marth) and am curious about them, and you seem like you'd be able to explain what makes them work.

And I still can't vote in the new poll (I've been writing this post for a while, your update happened while I was writing this).

[Elieson]

Ugh. I can't figure out how this poll thing works. I tried deleting it to re-add it and now I can't even re-add it. 

 

If you have thoughts/requests for me to cover, post it underlined in your replies and I'll note them down for coverage. That'll make it easy to find and keep track of!

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Spur Atk 3 is actually +4, not +5.

[ILikeKirbys]

20 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Ugh. I can't figure out how this poll thing works. I tried deleting it to re-add it and now I can't even re-add it. 

 

If you have thoughts/requests for me to cover, post it underlined in your replies and I'll note them down for coverage. That'll make it easy to find and keep track of!

Alright then.

Nino, Olwen, Alfonse, Sharena, and Anna are the units I'd like to see you cover in the future. Nino for reasons I gave in a previous post, Olwen because you already covered Reinhardt and I'm curious about the other brave tome user that's in right now, and Alfonse, Sharena and Anna because I'm curious as to how the Heroes original characters hold up compared to the various other characters in this game (and what makes Alfonse stand out compared to the various other sword lords).

Edited March 2, 2017 by ILikeKirbys
Forgot Olwen

[Sire]

There's gotta be a better way to do this, otherwise this topic will be flooded with "Suggestion" posts mixed in with the analysis and comments about said analysis. Anyways, I got two. Actually, make that three... no, four now...

1. Next Focus - Nino, Felicia, Setsuna, Effie: While I sorta know how effective Nino and Effie are and the fact I like Felicia, the detailed information would be nice and hopefully prove to be helpful for individuals wanting to spend their orbs.

2. Askr Heroes  - Alfonse, Sharena, and Anna: Starter heroes and the main characters of FE:Heroes. New and veteran players may like to know how useful (or useless) these units are.

3. Starter Heroes - Matthew, Viron, Raigh: The "free heroes" the player gets from the start of the game.

4. Free Rotation Heroes - Sophia, Viron, Hana, Subaki, Donnel, Lissa, Hunter, Cecilia, Felicia, Wrys, Olivia, Stahl: Other "free heroes" the player may obtain.

[ExpendableExtra]

3 hours ago, Elieson said:

I can read >.<

 

I completely misunderstood Klein's QR3 approach then, and need to cut many of my numbers in half. UGH I may as well invalidate my entire above analysis!

Sorry about that, but I wouldn't want people thinking that Klein is some automatic 4x attacker on player phase. Also Leo and Subaki also has QR as well.

[Elieson]

1 hour ago, ExpendableExtra said:

Sorry about that, but I wouldn't want people thinking that Klein is some automatic 4x attacker on player phase. Also Leo and Subaki also has QR as well.

No apology necessary! This is why I post on a forum, to promote understanding and share -facts-! If i got it wrong, some guide I'd be writing!

[Quintessence]

Awesome post about Klein, well-informed and detailed.

I currently have a +Atk -Def Klein and he obliterates almost everything, literally.

His strongest threats are Takumi and Hector, both if which counter no matter what and counter really hard. My Klein one rounds most Takumis safely, but he can't touch Hectors, hence why he needs a strong red unit like Lucina, Lyn, Roy, etc. Probably Sanaki or Lilina as well if they one shot Hectors. He can handle the rest of the chars pretty safely on PP no matter who they are. The rest is just common coverage, throw Olivia for Hone Atk and someone you want. However, Kleim has the advantage to snipe kill Hectors with Glacies, due to the added dmg, almost like +20 ~ with average Res.

I prefer to call his EP as non existant unless you tank a mage and know you will counter kill, else don't throw him at melee range.

I'd argue he's the best archer if it weren't for Takumi's Close Counter.