Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[MaskedAmpharos]

27 minutes ago, Falcom said:

So how viable would Astra be now if you stuck it with Heavy Blade? I actually wanna try that out if I ever come across another unit with that skill.

Heavy Blade wouldn't change its viability because the problem was never its cd length. 

Having a useless skill proc sooner won't make it any more useful. 

EDIT for added elaboration: With the way its damage calculations work, by the time Astra outdamages any of the other proc skills, like Draconic Aura or Bonfire, it's way overkill. And any time before that it's outdamaged by, well, other skills. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[Folt]

Here's my current 5* Xander build, to support my +Atk Reinhardt on my M!Robin/Julia/Reinhardt team:

Weapon: Siegfried

Assist: None (Thinking about maybe Reposition or Swap)

Special: Bonfire

A Skill: Fury 3

B Skill: Quick Riposte 2 (Didn't want to sacrifice my Leo for Quick Riposte 3, so I 4-starred a Subaki and sacrificed him instead)

C Skill: Hone Cavalry

Xander essentially baits someone he has weapon advantage against and finishes them off. Reinhardt sticks close by to benefit from Hone Cavalry and delete enemy units on player phase.

With this, I can send the unit on my team out in duos with M!Robin and Xander being damage dealers and physical tanks (M!Robin also doubling as a tank against red mages due to Triangle Adept), Julia nukes dragons, deals high damage in general (not to mention blicks off both Azura and Ninian) and provides chip damage and Res tanking, and Reinhardt is a player phase nuke.

[Zangetsu]

Which is the better skill Azura to use? Moonbow or Dragon Fang?

[MrSmokestack]

16 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

Which is the better skill Azura to use? Moonbow or Dragon Fang?

Moonbow. She shouldn't be attacking in the first place so Moonbow at least lets her proc every now and then. Ideally, it's an option that never needs to be exercised.

[Zangetsu]

I get that she's fragile, but really? Is it at that point I shouldn't even let her inherit a brave lance?

[MrSmokestack]

23 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

I get that she's fragile, but really? Is it at that point I shouldn't even let her inherit a brave lance?

Dancers aren't supposed to be attacking. Most Brave Lance users have 35 base Atk or higher so Azura wouldn't even use it that well at all anyway. She appreciates the defensive capabilities of her Sapphire Lance to function as an emergency check to reds, so there's no need to change her weapon nor try to make her offensive.

[Zangetsu]

I see, thx 4 the advice Mrsmokestack

[Clogon]

So the game trolled me with 3 regular 5* Camilla's when I was hunting Spring Camilla.

-Def/+Atk

-Res/+Atk

-Spd/+Res

 

The last one will probably be Brave Axe Fodder for Cherche but I don't know what to do with the others. I could try to get another Hector and give her Emerald Axe+Distant Counter but I already have a S!Camilla that is gonna go TA Raven when I get the SP and ingredients.

Her stats are way too balanced. I can't find a role for her in any of my teams that any other green or green flier can't do better. :( Any suggestions?

[MaskedAmpharos]

5 hours ago, Clogon said:

So the game trolled me with 3 regular 5* Camilla's when I was hunting Spring Camilla.

-Def/+Atk

-Res/+Atk

-Spd/+Res

 

The last one will probably be Brave Axe Fodder for Cherche but I don't know what to do with the others. I could try to get another Hector and give her Emerald Axe+Distant Counter but I already have a S!Camilla that is gonna go TA Raven when I get the SP and ingredients.

Her stats are way too balanced. I can't find a role for her in any of my teams that any other green or green flier can't do better. :( Any suggestions?

I honestly question what you would want a Camilla for if you already have a Cherche and Spring Camilla outside of favoritism. 

You have 3 pieces of Brave Axe+ fodder though, which is hard to come by. You could have a Brave Axe Cherche, Brave Axe Anna, and Brave Axe Frederick, all of whom utilize Brave Axe better than Camilla does. 

[BANRYU]

55 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I honestly question what you would want a Camilla for if you already have a Cherche and Spring Camilla outside of favoritism. 

You have 3 pieces of Brave Axe+ fodder though, which is hard to come by. You could have a Brave Axe Cherche, Brave Axe Anna, and Brave Axe Frederick, all of whom utilize Brave Axe better than Camilla does. 

I'm inclined to agree with this-- Brave Axe fodder is valuable and hard to come by, and as you mentioned, @Clogon, her balanced stats are pretty hard to make use of. If you're gonna keep one, I'd keep the -Def one and maybe try the Distant Counter thing if you really want to shoot for it, but otherwise you're better off with Bun Camilla and Cherche/Minerva/Michalis for a Flier Emblem team IMO. 

[TheNiddo]

Camilla's main contribution to to a flier team is her high res. You wouldn't want to put an Emerald Axe on her, without it she can tank all but two of the reds in the game when it comes to mages just fine, so the Emerald Axe wouldn't be helping her much in that roll. Probably hurting more than anything, seeing as several of the red mages she only survives by a whisker. 

I'd hold onto all three for now for Brave Axe fodder reasons. If you happen to have the pieces needed to make the magic tank!Camilla fall into your lap you can go for it. No need to try to force either outcome, just wait and see what happens.

[MaskedAmpharos]

1 minute ago, TheNiddo said:

Camilla's main contribution to to a flier team is her high res. You wouldn't want to put an Emerald Axe on her, without it she can tank all but two of the reds in the game when it comes to mages just fine, so the Emerald Axe wouldn't be helping her much in that roll. Probably hurting more than anything, seeing as several of the red mages she only survives by a whisker. 

I'd hold onto all three for now for Brave Axe fodder reasons. If you happen to have the pieces needed to make the magic tank!Camilla fall into your lap you can go for it. No need to try to force either outcome, just wait and see what happens.

If you're running a flier team, presumably you would be running Cordelia/Hinoka or some other blue, who would be able to take the hit from a magic hit just fine. 

[TheNiddo]

3 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

If you're running a flier team, presumably you would be running Cordelia/Hinoka or some other blue, who would be able to take the hit from a magic hit just fine. 

They would, except for Green. (Or Reinhardt with Lancebreaker, that's like one of two B passives he can really use). I would think being the character who can safely handle Reinhardt on a flier team is a pretty big bonus: there is no set up Reinhardt can pull off short of getting +11 damage in attack bonuses to kill a neutral Camilla who isn't rocking any flier bonuses. Throw those in and he can't kill her without a special activation. And she kills him for the attempt with Distant Counter.

Before Horse Emblem/Flier Emblem buffs are included for either side, just throwing on Lancerbreaker means Cordelia and Hinoka get ripped apart with overkill. If Reinhardt has Deathblow he doesn't even need Lancebreaker, his first volley flat out kills them. You can give a +Res Hinoka +12 Res from bonuses and she still dies, same with a +Res Coredila and a +12 Res bonus. While Reinhardt is getting no outside bonuses except for the Attack Seal.

[MaskedAmpharos]

6 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

They would, except for Green. (Or Reinhardt with Lancebreaker, that's like one of two B passives he can really use). I would think being the character who can safely handle Reinhardt on a flier team is a pretty big bonus: there is no set up Reinhardt can pull off short of getting +11 damage in attack bonuses to kill a neutral Camilla who isn't rocking any flier bonuses. Throw those in and he can't kill her without a special activation. And she kills him for the attempt with Distant Counter.

Before Horse Emblem/Flier Emblem buffs are included for either side, just throwing on Lancerbreaker means Cordelia and Hinoka get ripped apart with overkill. If Reinhardt has Deathblow he doesn't even need Lancebreaker, his first volley flat out kills them. You can give a +Res Hinoka +12 Res from bonuses and she still dies, same with a +Res Coredila and a +12 Res bonus. While Reinhardt is getting no outside bonuses except for the Attack Seal.

Clogon already stated that they're planning to use a Spring Camilla with Gronnraven and T-Adept, which handles Reinhardt and other blue mages just fine.

[TheNiddo]

Ah, so she does. I wasn't sure if her Res would be high enough even with TA, but as long as a special isn't activating she should be fine.

[Katrisa]

I've been looking at Xander and matchups.  And I'm a bit surprised Triangle Adept isn't being considered on him (especially paired with sword or bow breaker).

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Standard Xander build appears to be Fury + Quick Riposte + Moonbow/Bonfire:
  Which  would allow Xander to tank and kill archers, green mages, and green melee.  He'll loose almost all red matchups though.  Most swords will outspeed him and red mages/dragons will outspeed him and trash his resistance.  Likewise when fighting anything (even when he wins) he's going to come out fairly hurt from incoming damage AND fury recoil.  Making two kills of anything sketchy at best.

Triangle Adept Xander build would be Triangle Adept + Sword Breaker OR Bow Breaker + Moonbow:
  Which would allow Xander to easily tank/kill Green mages and green melee.  With sword breaker he would win most sword matchups, but require two turns to kill an archer.  While with bow breaker he would slaughter archers but loose most sword matchups.  Overall he'll take minimal damage from green fights and low-moderate from sword or bow battles so he should be able to get two kills without much of an issue.

Glancing at this functionally I think Triangle Adept Xander should fair better in most cases with you choosing bow/sword breaker based on the gap in your team comp.   Am I missing something here or overlooking a common use/matchup that people are using Fury Xander for?  The only notable green matchup change I see is he would not one turn counterkill Cherche, Minerva (without LoD) and Hector.  Hector you would just take two turns (and kill last) while Minerva without LoD would be super rare and Cherche you would have to two turn.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Katrisa

[MrSmokestack]

@Katrisa, Xander doesn't need Triangle Adept, simply put.

Greens already have a hard enough time against Xander in melee, with neutral Hector doing a grand total 5 damage. Green mages 3HKO at best and only 2HKO at worst--Nino with max buffs leaves him with 8 HP--and they are all one-shot anyway. Taking Adept reduces his bulk against reds due to lacking Fury while providing overkill coverage on greens. Distant Counter on Siegfried gives him flexibility in many matchups, and QR lets him take advantage of that more than either weaponbreaker can. Also, Fury + Vantage.

There's also Heavy Blade for the more whale-minded, which lets him spam Bonfires for even better counterkilling potential, with an Atk buff under his belt.

Edited May 5, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Clogon]

4 hours ago, TheNiddo said:

Camilla's main contribution to to a flier team is her high res. You wouldn't want to put an Emerald Axe on her, without it she can tank all but two of the reds in the game when it comes to mages just fine, so the Emerald Axe wouldn't be helping her much in that roll. Probably hurting more than anything, seeing as several of the red mages she only survives by a whisker. 

Thanks for this piece of information!

5 hours ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I honestly question what you would want a Camilla for if you already have a Cherche and Spring Camilla outside of favoritism. 

She was my first 5* and I was just hoping she could be of use. Her IV's are great and the higher res give her an edge at tanking mages over S!Camilla (this one's IV is -Res+HP so not so good at tanking mages). Having 3 of her means I can get +2 to help my Arena Score. Outside of that I don't think I will need 3 Brave Axe users so at least one of them will remain for 2k HM's. I agree though, I don't need her.

4 hours ago, TheNiddo said:

No need to try to force either outcome, just wait and see what happens.

Yeah I will just do this then.

Thank you all for the advices and information!

[Katrisa]

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Taking Adept reduces his bulk against reds due to lacking Fury while providing overkill coverage on greens.

Thanks for the metrics Smoke.  You gave me enough doubt to check the numbers myself.  Your note on Vantage is probably the most interesting, Vantage may have better raw use on Xander than Quick Riposte in the arena letting his counter and high attack stretch.  Please note my rant below isn't pointing that you're wrong on anything rather exploring how much additional coverage Fury actually nets on Xander.

---

Fury only increases your bulk if you would have died otherwise (since recoil is very damaging) or if you avoid being doubled.  The primary reason to take fury is to increase damage, increase your speed bracket, and attempt to bulk up just enough to avoid being one or two shotted.  Its been a popular skill for most red sword users because many have low bulk and are in competitive speed tiers.  Xander though is stupid bulky from a defense viewpoint.  So the primary bulk changes in Xander dying with or without Fury is from the speed bump.  

Xander's red Speed tier (Fury Xander can avoid doubles from the following units):
  Neutral Alm, Eliwood, Young Tiki(dragon), Ike, and Palla
  +Spd OR Fury Stal, Laslow, and Sanaki(Mage)
  +Spd and Fury Adult Tiki(dragon), Eldigan, Hinata, Seliph, Chrom, Alfonse, and Lilina(Mage)

So above is the answer to the question I was trying to ask.  Those are the matchups which have the potential to change for Xander vs Fury Xander.  I did the computations for his bulk and he literally can survive two hits from neutral or +Spd Lucina with Fury and Moonbow... with or without Fury 3.  

So I guess what is occurring as people look at Xander is I want to counter hit everything twice.  Which is a solid reaction and Quick Riposte does this job great.  The problem is if you eat one or two hits and eat Fury recoil you've taken some serious damage.  And I checked the numbers.  From most double sword hits Fury Xander is going to be essentially between 1-10 hitpoints depending on if they had Moonbow and or Fury/LifeOrDeath (or another +Attack skill).  So he won't be able to do another fight.

---

Anyway after looking at the numbers I think I've come to an interesting conclusion.  +Spd Xander and +Fury Xander achieve almost the exact same result with the widest possible counter coverage using Quick Riposte.  The only exception I can find is if Lucina or Ryoma have Fury3, Moonblow and the +1 Attack seal, in which case +Spd Xander will die and +Fury Xander will live.  I think there is another exception with +Atk Lucina and Ryoma with Fury3, Moonblow and the +1 Attack seal where +3Hp seal +Spd Xander will die and +3HP seal +Fury Xander will live.  (The HP seal is nice on Xander!)

---

But after looking things over Fury Xander does appear to have the widest counter coverage set, at the cost of coming out maimed.  I'll have to consider how this would work with my comp.  I'm tempted to skip Fury with him and go with his default Armored blow (or raw +3 defense) and Sword breaker.  He gives up some coverage (mostly counter doubleing archers) but could easily handle most reds and greens killing more than one per arena match.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Katrisa

[Absolute Zero]

46 minutes ago, Katrisa said:

But after looking things over Fury Xander does appear to have the widest counter coverage set, at the cost of coming out maimed

Fury doesn't change the damage a unit that always gets doubled takes (-3 def x2 = 6). What it does is get him out of his crap ass speed tier and since he has access to movement based buffs (from a free unit, no less) he can get to a decent 33 speed with fury, where the six damage will usually be less than a second hit. QR almost always breaks in one round unless your packing TA which as already has been stated is overkill on Xander.

 On a slightly different note I think as a stand alone no hone cavalry Heavy Blade Wary Fighter is a silly combo that makes him a pretty good frontliner (anything that doesn't die can't get a second hit in, bulky enough to engage a couple units). Too bad heavy blade is so resource intensive.

EDIT: Xander can't inherit wary fighter I'm dumb.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Absolute Zero

[GinRei]

6 minutes ago, Absolute Zero said:

Fury doesn't change the damage a unit that always gets doubled takes (-3 def x2 = 6).

That 6 from Fury isn't damage, so it can't kill you.  That's an important part for fights where you would otherwise take exact lethal.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Wary Fighter is also restricted to armours, so Xander can't inherit it.

[Absolute Zero]

1 minute ago, GinRei said:

That 6 from Fury isn't damage, so it can't kill you.  That's an important part for fights where you would otherwise take exact lethal.

Yes I am aware, was just trying to counter their point that fury causes Xander to take more damage than no fury. Sorry if that was unclear

[Katrisa]

35 minutes ago, Absolute Zero said:

Yes I am aware, was just trying to counter their point that fury causes Xander to take more damage than no fury. Sorry if that was unclear

Well Xander will take less damage in situations with Fury.  Xander will take less overall damage with just +3Speed.  He actually benefits relatively little from the entire Fury buff since his defense will rarely fair him when being doubled by a green or red unit.  As noted there are only a few scant situations with red sword wielders where +3Speed and Fury have a different outcome.

You are right that if Xander is passed a Hone Cavalry buff he'll push up to 33 speed.  Which is important to note.  On the other hand if you keep his Armored blow and he gets a Fortify Cavalry buff he literally only takes 4 damage per hit from a non+attack Lucina.  

So I guess the question comes in with how your Xander is being used.  I do agree after looking over all the numbers that Fury provides the largest coverage for Xander.  I do think that +3Speed provides almost the exact same coverage but reduces the damage you'll take in single attack situations (and single blow kills).

Anyway though I figured out what I wanted that Fury does have legitimate uses in terms of coverage for a number of fights.

[MrSmokestack]

1 hour ago, Katrisa said:

Thanks for the metrics Smoke.  You gave me enough doubt to check the numbers myself.  Your note on Vantage is probably the most interesting, Vantage may have better raw use on Xander than Quick Riposte in the arena letting his counter and high attack stretch.  Please note my rant below isn't pointing that you're wrong on anything rather exploring how much additional coverage Fury actually nets on Xander.

*snip calcs*

Anyway after looking at the numbers I think I've come to an interesting conclusion.  +Spd Xander and +Fury Xander achieve almost the exact same result with the widest possible counter coverage using Quick Riposte.  The only exception I can find is if Lucina or Ryoma have Fury3, Moonblow and the +1 Attack seal, in which case +Spd Xander will die and +Fury Xander will live.  I think there is another exception with +Atk Lucina and Ryoma with Fury3, Moonblow and the +1 Attack seal where +3Hp seal +Spd Xander will die and +3HP seal +Fury Xander will live.  (The HP seal is nice on Xander!)

---

But after looking things over Fury Xander does appear to have the widest counter coverage set, at the cost of coming out maimed.  I'll have to consider how this would work with my comp.  I'm tempted to skip Fury with him and go with his default Armored blow (or raw +3 defense) and Sword breaker.  He gives up some coverage (mostly counter doubleing archers) but could easily handle most reds and greens killing more than one per arena match.

Always good to have confirmation.

Although, if I could elaborate on my previous answer, I'd include that the option to not run Triangle Adept is a choice based on the meta more than on any calculations. Green mostly exists to check blue, the most popular color, though reds are ubiquitous enough that finding a dedicated "green check"  isn't as much of an issue.

Interesting note on the HP Seal though, I hadn't considered it before. Thinking about it now, it not only extends Xander's durability in tandem with Fury but it also raises Quick Riposte's uptime ever so slightly. I'd consider Moonbow if the burst from Bonfire didn't outweigh it so much, though it's far from a bad choice.

I make regular use of Fury in my Arena runs, even after the balancing update. I find that the defensive edge it offers, like keeping Nino from getting oneshot by enemy Hectors and Takumis, far outweighs the recoil; it's much easier to work with a 1 HP unit than a dead one, after all. Before skill inheritance, Eldigan showed that having buff enough stats to begin with is often enough to offset its recoil. Mind you, Eldigan is a cavalry unit, so having stats like that on a horse impressed me a great deal. Using him to great effect in a few of my early Arena runs, I was pretty set on the idea of Fury being one of the best A Passives in the game, or at least my personal favorite. Xander does it even better with his Atk and Def lead in addition to Prf Distant Counter.

Adding this to my notes, thanks.

Edited May 5, 2017 by MrSmokestack