Sire's Theorycrafting Center

[Arcanite]

4 minutes ago, Sire said:

Do you still want me to try and make those builds for Jaffar and Karel? I'm over a month late, but I can still give it a try if you want.

Only Jaffar. I know what I want to do with Karel

[BANRYU]

Hey man no worries, stuff happens. 

If you want, I have a small collection of challenges/requests for you to attempt if you feel like it (totally at your discretion though; I'm only curious to see what, if anything, you come up with, no pressure or anything lol so don't feel too obligated unless you want)...

Specifically, I'm interested in units that can make the best use of the following skills: 

• Obstruct
• Windsweep
• Watersweep
• Brash Assault (not counting Lyn)
• Guard

Whoever your single best guess at who'd use it the best is what I'm interested in. For curiosity's sake more than anything. 

[Sire]

@Arcanite

Here's your Jaffar writeup! I should have BANRYU's post done later today if all goes well.

Jaffar Theorycrafting

D. Jaffar 	Deathly Dagger	|| Glimmer, ---		|| Life and Death, ---, Threaten SPD
1. Jaffar	Deathly Dagger	|| Moonbow*, Any*	|| Life and Death, Poison Strike*, Savage Blow*
2. Jaffar	Rogue Dagger*	|| Sol*, Any*		|| Close Counter*, Renewal*, Threaten ATT*

Name		HP	ATT	SPD	DEF	RES	Total
Jaffar		41	26	33	25	22	147

Jakob		39	29	31	25	24	148
Matthew		41	25	34	30	18	148

Honestly, there is not much potential for the Angel of Death besides his Deathly Dagger unique. Almost anything Jaffar can do Jakob can do better, even if Jakob has 2 less SPD.

Jaffar’s good stats are his HP and SPD, but they mean little if he can’t do any actual damage. Sure, he can chip away at enemies due to the Deathly Dagger special, but that means he requires someone else to actually finish the job. 

So, I tried making two builds for him. I recommend getting a +ATT Jaffar, with the bane either being -RES or -HP.

Jaffar 1 – Savage Angel: This Jaffar focuses on chipping away at the enemy’s health with Deathly Dagger and Poison Strike, allowing him to do 17 Damage after combat he initiates. Savage Blow lets Jaffar deal 7 area damage to opponents in the area, while Moonbow is present in case Jaffar needs to try and kill an enemy himself (Glimmer is pointless on Jaffar due to his actual low damage output. // If you do not want to run Moonbow: Draconic Aura, Draconic Fang, and Luna are decent offensive choices for Jaffar.)

Depending on how you want to use Jaffar, you can keep L&D if you want him to deal some damage. If you are just using him for the damage effects, try replacing L&D with something else.

Jaffar 2 – Guardian Angel: Taking advantage of Jaffar’s SPD and HP, this variant focuses on a more defensive Jaffar that utilizes the Rogue Dagger, Sol, and Renewal to stay alive. In comparison to Matthew, Jaffar has weaker DEF in exchange for more RES, allowing Jaffar to tank mages better than Matthew. Essentially, Matthew is a physical tank (although Saizo arguably does that better) while Guardian Angel Jaffar is more of a balanced tank.

Close Counter is present so Jaffar can retaliate against melee users. So, Jaffar can run in, debuff the enemy while buffing himself, and then finish the enemy off when the enemy retaliates on their turn. However, feel free to put something else there instead since Close Counter is a rare skill.

[dragonlordsd]

Reinhardt's place in the meta seems to be rising rapidly with Ike, Xander, and Ryoma all becoming more widely available thanks to focuses and GHB. Takumi is also circling around again.

With that said, does Wary Fighter work with him? I assume it works as it does in game, allowing him to double with his brave tome and not receive follow up damage.

Given his higher than average defenses, this should allow him to attack much more safely than he could previously.

 

[TheNiddo]

11 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Reinhardt's place in the meta seems to be rising rapidly with Ike, Xander, and Ryoma all becoming more widely available thanks to focuses and GHB. Takumi is also circling around again.

With that said, does Wary Fighter work with him? I assume it works as it does in game, allowing him to double with his brave tome and not receive follow up damage.

Given his higher than average defenses, this should allow him to attack much more safely than he could previously.

 

Only armoured units can use Wary Fighter.

[dragonlordsd]

1 hour ago, TheNiddo said:

Only armoured units can use Wary Fighter.

Unfortunate. Would have made Reinhardt extremely good.

[TheNiddo]

30 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Unfortunate. Would have made Reinhardt extremely good.

Reinhardt is already arguably the 2nd best unit in the game only behind Hector. Dude doesn't need any more help.

Now, Seliph on the other hand? The things he could do if he could use Wary Fighter...

[Sire]

Haven't had a productive week, but I did get some other stuff done...

First, I updated the Google Spreadsheet a bit with some more builds, so feel free to give it a look if you are interested in the builds themselves with minimal explanations (write-ups take a while, and that's on a good day..)

Second, I'm posting part of @BANRYU's request on how to make Brash Assault, Guard, Obstruct, Windsweep, and Watersweep useful. For now, I only have Brash Assault and Guard fully written out, with the rest receiving a mini-writeup with (maybe, hopefully) a proper one to come "Soon™"

Brash Assault
Brash Assault - Unit automatically makes a follow-up when at HP ≤ 50% and attacking a foe that can counter.
Note: Citation needed for mid-combat activation. Brash Assault does not trigger mid-combat.

I find Brash Assault to be best used on units with High ATT but are naturally slow, like Chrom, Cherche, and Lilina. Thing is, since Brash Assault only trigger under 50% HP and requires the user to attack a target that can counter, it also requires the unit to be rather bulky and survive hits when under 50% health.

So, for Brash Assault to be effective, it needs…
1. High ATT
2. Low SPD
3. Less than 50% HP (at max rank)
4. Attack an enemy that can counter so it can trigger. It does not trigger on the defense.
… makes it an extremely niche skill.

Brash Assault is best utilized when using triangle advantage and maybe even against the same color. However, using BA for when one has triangle advantage may be overkill (and Triangle Adept is a better candidate – do you want to be screwed over by the opposite color or have a skill that may not always work when under 50% health?) Then, when fighting against the same color a (weapon)breaker skill is far more useful. Despite this, Quick Riposte is superior since units are more likely to be near full health (especially with a healer) instead of half health or lower for Brash Assault.

The only saving grace with Brash Assault is that it can trigger mid-combat, so if an enemy defender knocks your character below 50% in a battle, your hero will trigger Brash Assault and get a follow-up on the attack.

[Neutral Chrom will likely overkill Greens with Brash Assault due to his high ATT, or may not even need the follow up attack. When facing Reds, say Neutral Lucina, Chrom will still end up taking 19 damage before finishing off Lucina. The fact Neutral Chrom needs to have 22 HP or lower makes Brash Assault extremely situational, unless he manages to trigger it mid-combat if he has 20-41 HP going in.]

Of course, it works well on Lyn because she is the only character capable of also running Desperation because of her weapon, so Lyn will double any melee attacker she runs into. That combined with her innate Defiant Atk makes her rather dangerous when she has low Health, but she is the only exception to Brash Assault.

Overall, Brash Assault is mostly useless. Outside of Lyn, I dare say Brash Assault is the most useless skill in the game since it requires so many conditions to utilize properly.

Guard
Guard - If unit's HP is ≥ 80% at start of combat, enemy is inflicted with Special cooldown charge-1. (If using similar skill, only highest value applied.)

Guard is an odd one, but can be considered useful for teams that prefer to outlast their opponents instead of nuking them down (Thing is, Glass Cannon metas always seem to be a thing…)

Off the top of my head, I can see Guard being extremely useful in countering units that love running Moonbow and units that run Killer Weapons. It is also good at shutting down enemies more reliant on their skills to deal damage, such as Niles, Felicia, and Henry.

To best use Guard, the unit in question should be…
1. Fast – If the unit is slow, Guard can still help, but fast units get the most benefit as they are not doubled.
2. Defensive – Having high HP, DEF, and RES are preferred. Of course, as most units tend to specialize in either DEF or RES instead of both, pick your battles wisely.

Some Heroes that are good with Guard are Titania (who comes with it innately), Selena, Erika, Shanna, and Catria. Just know that if the unit is fast and has “good” survivability, chances are they are sacrificing their ATT power so they may not be able to take out the enemy.

* * * * *

Mini Write Up- Obstruct, Windsweep, Watersweep
Obstruct - Prevents foes from moving through adjacent spaces while this unit's HP ≥ 50%. (No effect on foes with a Pass skill.)

In a world of glass cannons, who will protect these glasses from cracking? In the world of Heroes, it would be another glass cannon as if the opposition is dead, then they can't attack you! However, maybe 4 glass cannons will be too much, 3 + a defensive unit may work better. This is where Obstruct comes in.

Honestly, I don't use Obstruct, but there have been cases where "I need to kill (x), but this unit is in the way and I can't get rid of that unit to get to (x)." The biggest draw here is to safeguard squishy characters, such as glass cannons, with a hero that can actually take some hits.

Off the top of my head, I can see Xander using Obstruct well with a glass cannon team (Xander, Hana, Nino, Linde) since Xander can retaliate at range and has physical bulk despite being slow. He also has an extra movement point being a cavalry unit, which helps him maneuver to block the path of foes. // Now, in regards to Xander's weakness to magic, the girls should be able to nuke the potential threats to Xander while Xander safeguards them from harm. Then the girls proceed to nuke the rest of the map.

Watersweep - If unit initiates attack, no follow-up occurs. Against foe with magic, staff or dragonstone, if unit’s Spd - foe’s Spd ≥ 1, foe can’t counterattack.

1. Pointless against staffies, they deal next to no damage anyway. Maybe useful against Pain users in extremely niche situations.
2. Can be somewhat useful for Falchion users on Dragonslayer duty, especially against Nowi. Still fairly niche though.
3. Usually mages are attacked in melee, and melee users will want to double. The alternative is that mages are lured to attack a ranged unit for retaliation. Using a ranged unit to attack a ranged unit is a niche situation in my opinion, and chances are the player wants the mage dead and not wounded since many characters have poor RES.

In essence, Watersweep is another niche skill. I can see it becoming more prominent if lots of mages start running Close Counter, but until that day, melee units clear out mages just fine.

Windsweep - If unit initiates attack, no follow-up occurs. Against foe with sword, lance, axe, bow, or dagger, if unit’s Spd - foe’s Spd ≥ 1, foe can’t counterattack.

It's nice for chip damage and countering Vantage or Quick Riposte users (Vantage Ryoma and Hector come to mind), but otherwise the general consensus is to kill the opponent and not deal chip damage.

The problem with Windsweep is that it requires...
1. A unit with high ATT
2. A unit with high SPD

...to be used right. Thing is, units with high SPD like to double things, and if they do not double things, then what is the purpose of being speedy? Maybe if one is trying to use a speedy unit as an "HP Tank," then Windsweep may be useful (high SPD + HP is better than low SPD + a poor DEF or RES stat), but such units tend to have low ATT power.

Also, when placed on a melee unit, it makes attacking bows and daggers counterproductive as they will not be able to counter anyway.

(Bonus) Firesweep - Unit and enemies cannot use counterattacks (currently only found on the Firesweep Bow, Faye's weapon).

If Firesweep was a skill, it would automatically make Windsweep and Watersweep almost invalid.

Think of it like the skill Desperation, but instead of an HP threshold to activate, the unit simply can not counter. So, getting x2 or x4 hits on an enemy, "for free" at the cost of not being able to counter is extremely powerful when used properly on the player phase. Add a dancer or a buff blade team to the mix, and Firesweep can easily become the new meta as whoever has Firesweep must be taken down immediately or else suffer losses. (The alternative is to field a proper tank to lure the individual, then dispatch of the troublemaker.)

So, suffer losses if the Firesweep Unit attacks you or suffer losses by charging in to take out the troublesome unit, leaving your team exposed to the rest of the opposing team. While I like Skill Inheritance, I would not mind seeing "banned Arena skills" become a thing should Firesweep ever become an actual skill...

Edited May 9, 2017 by Sire
Added a correction for Brash Assault

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, Sire said:

Note: Citation needed for mid-combat activation.

That citation is definitely needed. I've never used Brash Assault, but I can't see a reason why it would be the only skill that can activate after combat has started.

[Katrisa]

1 hour ago, Sire said:

Brash Assault - Unit automatically makes a follow-up when at HP ≤ 50% and attacking a foe that can counter.

Windsweep - If unit initiates attack, no follow-up occurs. Against foe with sword, lance, axe, bow, or dagger, if unit’s Spd - foe’s Spd ≥ 1, foe can’t counterattack.

Brash Assault could also be used on Xander or Nowi (users with a distant counter and low speeds).  This effectively lets them tank a dangerous ranged counter (counter killing the unit but hitting under 50% hp) and then proceed to offensively double units (using their high defense to tank through despite at 50% health).  As you noted this isn't exactly ideal since you are likely better off running something like Quick Riposte and healing them up afterward if possible.  And hitting below 50% health can be tricky even when its your intention.

Windsweep would have been nice on fast healers.  Its extremely ironic they blocked healers from using this skill... since it would have at LEAST let fast healers apply debuffs or do some tap damage on turns they don't need to heal.  Talk about healer hatred. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Katrisa

[Sire]

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That citation is definitely needed. I've never used Brash Assault, but I can't see a reason why it would be the only skill that can activate after combat has started.

The reason I state this is because when I was researching it...

1. I read somewhere a player used Seliph and Brash Assault saved the dude's life.
2. The game automatically pre-calculates the effects of Brash Assault when doing the combat forecast.
(This entire thing is a link, click me!)

However, looking over it again, it was probably a false alarm and I just remembered it "working" instead of the finer details that went about testing it there.

As for me, I never tested it myself and got rid of my only Seliph. I do have a Barte I can try to mess around with, but finding the proper conditions will be hard...

EDIT: Test Conditions for Brash Assault

Barte HP: 36 || Activation HP: 14 HP (Brash Assault 2 || 40%)

Barte SPD: 22
S!Flier Speed: 31

1. Barte (34-> 10 || 14 ATT) vs Sword Flier (32 ->18 || 12x2 ATT) -- Result: No Mid-Combat Brash Assault
2. Barte (9 -> 0 || 11x2 ATT) vs Sword Flier (32 ->18 || 7x2 ATT)  -- Result: Brash Assault Active, Low HP when Initiating

For 3, I had Azama heal Barte instead of taking the attack at 2. The Fire Balm (inherited) activated, which is why there is an attack increase.

3. Barte (34-> 10 || 14 ATT) vs Sword Flier (32 ->18 || 7x2 ATT)  -- Result: Brash Assault Lost, HP now above 40% when Initiating.

* * * * *

Looks like it's busted and Brash Assault is as useless as ever. It requires the HP to be below 50% (BA 3) at the start of combat and does not activate in the middle of combat (like all other skills).

= = = = =

@Katrisa

It sucks that Healers get locked out from a lot of skills. They do less damage due to their special modifier, can't access skills that would make them useful (Pain + Poison Strike, Slow + Seal Atk) or even mess around with offensive skills for entertainment (Luna or Sol on a Healer.)

Edited May 9, 2017 by Sire
Did some research

[Big Smoke]

Numbers... head... owwie...

This stuff is awesome. All you guys doing tests and numbercrunching deserve a trophy

[BANRYU]

@ Brash Assault: I DID say excluding Lyn ~3o Shame, though... it looks like BA remains as useless as we all thought it was. Pretty much no reason to use Brash over QuickRip on anyone who has the stats to use BA... I thought as much.

@ Guard: Ironically, it sounds like it's a good skill for the same type of Killer Special setups that it counters.... (Selena likes Wo Dao + Moonbow for the sake of damage, for instance) Although yeah, much like... pretty much all the others I asked about, lol, it seems like it's not really worth using over Breakers or whatnot given the whole 'kill > wall' mentality of the meta....

 

Boop I started writing this yesterday lmao but I'll just wrap it up quick here...

More or less what I expected, all the shit I asked about is useless and outclassed compared to other stuff lol. Obstruct has the added condition of needing to be used on a map where it can be properly utilized, and TBH it just seems like one of those skills that's inconvenient and difficult to face, but almost even harder to make use of yourself (IE Double team in Pokemon lol). 

I suppose Windsweep/Watersweep might also be good on high speed, low-atk units like Odin/Selena/etc, but running a sweep means you can't also run something better, like Renewal, Poison Strike, or a Seal skill that such low-atk units would probably want to use. So.... I guess they're useless too lol. Shame. 

[Hilda]

dunno watersweep/windsweep can be nice on units that focus on strong debuffs. For example FCorrin could make use of Water/Windsweep as a debuffer. She doesnt have all that high atk, but has good spd and an AoE built in Debuff on Attack wiht Atk-5 and SPD-5 2 tiles around the target which is godlike. So this skill could prolong her life in a match and give your other units the advantage they need?

[BANRYU]

2 minutes ago, Hilda said:

dunno watersweep/windsweep can be nice on units that focus on strong debuffs. For example FCorrin could make use of Water/Windsweep as a debuffer. She doesnt have all that high atk, but has good spd and an AoE built in Debuff on Attack wiht Atk-5 and SPD-5 2 tiles around the target which is godlike. So this skill could prolong her life in a match and give your other units the advantage they need?

That's true, that didn't occur to me... I was thinking 'can't be used with Seal skills' but admittedly I forgot about units whose weapon can be used for debuffs, IE Dark Breath and daggers. good point o3o Heck, if I'm able to actually pull Soren (and then get another because gotta keep your favs) I just might put it on mine...

Or I guess if I get Alm but Watersweep is more thematically appropriate for Corrin than Windsweep innit >3> (although technically speaking I suppose Windsweep would be more useful for a melee unit.....)

Edited May 10, 2017 by BANRYU

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Hilda said:

dunno watersweep/windsweep can be nice on units that focus on strong debuffs. For example FCorrin could make use of Water/Windsweep as a debuffer. She doesnt have all that high atk, but has good spd and an AoE built in Debuff on Attack wiht Atk-5 and SPD-5 2 tiles around the target which is godlike. So this skill could prolong her life in a match and give your other units the advantage they need?

Felicia with Windsweep and Smoke Dagger+.

[Hilda]

Well I am playing around with my F.Corrin and the Windsweep 3 setup but I am struggling to build the Team around her. You either need a unit that saves her afterwards or a unit that can swoop in, block the path and kill the target and survive the ongoing barrage of the now debuffed enemys (somewhat bulky). Xander comes to mind but his RES is kindah meh. Dont get me wrong F.Corring has somewhat okeish Def and a little bit of RES but she can get overwhelmed pretty fast, expecially by mages on enemy phase.

Now Felicia with Windsweep and Smoke Daggers + sounds kinda hot, her high res lets her attack mages pretty careless and windsweep prevents her from being slaughtered from Archers/Distant Counter. This is actually a very scary thought ¬.¬. And due to her being a ranged unit she is faster out of danger then F.Corrin.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Hilda