[Hacking] Build testing? How does the community feel about this?

[shadowofchaos]

So, as the community talked about the ethics of "hacking" vs. "cheating" in that thread I made regarding heroes... it was clear that most people don't care in regards to messing with the game, as long as you don't mess with rankings/experiences of others, even through indirect means.

 

That means, if I get a duplicate account and banned deliberately, most people wouldn't care if I messed around with hacks.

That said, there's also the fact that playing heroes being able to get everything you want without effort or investment... almost makes it stale in a way.

Since you also don't get to interact with friends and use any of the social aspects of it.

That said, I want to go and do that... but also want to have at least some sort of purpose for it.

I mean, getting the characters I like, being able to 5 star them, manipulate their nature, and give them skills has no fun or point if you're isolated other than having a creative mode like minecraft.

Things I can do for the community with that isolated account I'd say are three things:

1. My silly skill/quote exhibition videos I'm known for.

2. Shitposts for comedic value.

3. Skill build testing.

If you get banned... it's like shadowbans in fates. No friend interaction. And you don't get ranked in the arena. No one will fight your team. You can only fight others.

So, how do you guys feel about this?

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Roflolxp54]

I honestly don't mind since it would be like playing a single player sandbox game. See what silly or awesome combinations a player can come up with given basically infinite (or near infinite resources).

I actually want to hack Heroes (on a side account, of course) just so that I can use my favorite characters.

[Fei Mao]

I think its great to have a build to test and mess around with stuff for the sake of entertainment and discovery. Definitely would help out a lot if you plan on making an ultimate character guide and stuff.

[VincentASM]

I think it would be fun TBH.

...And I do need a bunch of Level 40 stats for 1-5 stars (including impossible ones)...

[Elieson]

As long as I never ever see your team on Arena defense maps, then I literally could not care less if you hack or smack~

[Silith13]

Aaaargh. Stop any form of hacking. Don't give them incentive to make playing on an Emulator even harder!

[Lushen]

I actually don't think anyone should be hacking/cheating in an online game.  Even if you think you're not affecting the game for others, you are.  If you get caught hacking, that means more strict regulations on hacking which could mean as little as an updated terms of service I have to re-agree to or as much as applying captcha codes to this or that.  Additionally, a lot of decisions for these kinds of games come out of statistics that you might be altering with your hacks (maybe Nintendo sees x% of people use this unit regularly and you're only using it because its been altered).

That being said, if you could somehow get the game offline or look into the files without playing, go crazy.

EDIT:  And what @Silith13 said, you could hurt emulator potential.

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Lushen

[shadowofchaos]

15 minutes ago, Silith13 said:

Aaaargh. Stop any form of hacking. Don't give them incentive to make playing on an Emulator even harder!

Here's the thing: The datamining you take for granted for knowing natures and event info is also involved with you blaming hacks for making it difficult for you.

So if you're going to make that argument, you should tell the rest of the community that as well. (You should probably look in the discussion thread for why I'm getting this vibe of "hacking is okay as long as you're not cheating" from the community)

Edited April 6, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Lushen]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

Here's the thing: The datamining you take for granted for knowing natures and event info is also involved with you blaming hacks for making it difficult for you.

Silith13 never said she uses/cares about datamining.  Maybe she does, I don't know but I think its an unfair conclusion.

And I don't know the details, but can't you datamine without playing the game?

[shadowofchaos]

17 minutes ago, Lushen said:

EDIT:  And what @Silith13 said, you could hurt emulator potential.

 

They already hate emulators in the same fashion as regular phones that don't pass safetynet.

Basing all blame onto people with root access and taking apart the game is exactly the kind of attitude that let's uneducated accusations fly around.

Edited April 6, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Elieson]

Just now, Lushen said:

Silith13 never said she uses/cares about datamining.  Maybe she does, I don't know but I think its an unfair conclusion.

And I don't know the details, but can't you datamine without playing the game?

You can gut a car for parts without even having a key.

You can also datamine a game without playing it

[shadowofchaos]

5 minutes ago, Elieson said:

You can gut a car for parts without even having a key.

You can also datamine a game without playing it

You, however have to have root access and essentially break the terms of service.

Emulators technically also break the terms of service. So blaming the restrictions solely on hacking is hypocritical.

I'm calling on a whale to weigh in. They have a lot more stake in the game than most of us do.

@Ice Dragon

Edited April 6, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Lushen]

12 minutes ago, Elieson said:

You can gut a car for parts without even having a key.

You can also datamine a game without playing it

Exactly so what does datamining have to do with this form of hacking?

12 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

They already hate emulators in the same fashion as regular phones that don't pass safetynet.

They don't hate emulators.  It's not on the google play store because they can't confirm that your device is compatible with the game.  They don't allow orb transfers because they can't guarantee you will receive those orbs on a non-compatible device.  Why do you think they just ban orb transfers on emulators and not the game itself?  They can obviously detect it, so if they wanted it stopped they would have put an end to it. However, if people start hacking things this may change because modifying apk files is easier through an emulator to my limited understanding.  I will freely admit I don't know much about apk hacking but I've got the common sense to differentiate it from emulation and rooting.

I feel like you made this thread to argue that hacking is ok and not to actually receive other's opinions.  I mean, you literally told Silith13 to take her comments eleswhere.  But I've made all the points I'd like to so I won't refute it any longer.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Lushen

[shadowofchaos]

17 minutes ago, Lushen said:

Exactly so what does datamining have to do with this form of hacking?

They don't hate emulators.  It's not on the google play store because they can't confirm that your device is compatible with the game.  They don't allow orb transfers because they can't guarantee you will receive those orbs on a non-compatible device.  Why do you think they just ban orb transfers on emulators and not the game itself?  They can obviously detect it, so if they wanted it stopped they would have put an end to it. However, if people start hacking things this may change because modifying apk files is easier through an emulator to my limited understanding.  I will freely admit I don't know much about apk hacking but I've got the common sense to differentiate it from emulation and rooting.

I feel like you made this thread to argue that hacking is ok and not to actually receive other's opinions.  But I've made all the points I'd like to so I won't refute it any longer.

No, I made the thread to ask for opinions that don't assume things.

1. The data mining and hacking is outlined in the code of conduct we agree to when installing the game in any device. It doesn't have to involve you playing it. You are legally bound to the agreement as soon as you install it as outlined in that same document.

"Uploading,  posting, emailing, or transmitting:

(i) Any content or data you do not have any legal right to make available."

That includes "attempting to derive source code/resources".

Which means, part of the info on serenes we use on a daily basis is attributed to breaking the terms of service. Which means that to them, it's on the same level as "hacking".

2.

You are basing all of your views on one thing: That emulators are the main subject. That all of the policies are tailored to people having unknowns.

For example: The orb purchases: Why does it affect and ban phones as well? The devices are compatible. They can run the game. And their device data gets transmitted to the server.

There is no monetary gain in banning emulators from purchases. And yet why did they do it?

The standard conclusion is that they want all non-standard devices off anything involving money transfers... the same reason why android pay is locked behind saferynet. Which means they would have locked it regardless of hacks.

What I am saying is that I don't appreciate accusations from an uneducated party.

They came into the thread being a drama queen and said "OH MY GOD STOP RUINING FOR ME" essentially.

Edited April 6, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Lushen]

4 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

No, I made the thread to ask for opinions that don't assume things.

1. The data mining and hacking is outlined in the code of conduct we agree to when installing the game in any device. It doesn't have to involve you playing it. You are legally bound to the agreement as soon as you install it as outlined in that same document.

"Uploading,  posting, emailing, or transmitting:

(i) Any content or data you do not have any legal right to make available."

That includes "attempting to derive source code/resources".

2.

You are basing all of your views on one thing: That emulators are the main subject. That all of the policies are tailored to people having unknowns.

For example: The orb purchases: Why does it affect and ban phones as well? The devices are compatible. They can run the game. And their device data gets transmitted to the server.

There is no monetary gain in banning emulators from purchases. And yet why did they do it?

The standard conclusion is that they want all non-standard devices off anything involving money transfers. Which means they would have locked it regardless of hacks.

What I am saying is that I don't appreciate accusations from an uneducated party.

I really don't want to argue the topic further, as I've said, but your reply didn't seem to respond to what I've said.

First of all, I can't for the life of me figure out what accusations you're referring to.  I have deleted like four sentence while typing this where I was trying to guess what you mean. Unless by accusation you mean opinion which makes more sense.  Otherwise, I am just confused.

I told you why they blocked orb purchases.  Like very blatantly - I said they do it to prevent users from purchasing orbs and not receiving them because they're using a device they cannot confirm compatibility for.  It's a liability issue.  My point wasn't that they're going against hackers/data miners but rather that they are not currently but could in the future if emulators/rooted devices create a problem. 

I actually edited in the discussion of emulators as a single sentence at the end of my first post.  I would definitely not say it was the main point I was trying to discuss but rather a side point I didn't think about until I read Silith's post that ninja'd me.  So, it wasn't even an original thought of mine but rather a side point that peaked my interest.

Please don't refer to someone as an uneducated party.  It makes more assumptions than I think you intended to.  Opening up an .apk file is not exactly a complicated subject.  I've never opened them specifically, but I've modded plenty of more complicated games so I do understand enough relevance to have an opinion.  Finally, everyone in your "educated party" would be people who have either done it or follow it very closely.  That's like asking liberals what they think of climate change.

Sorry, I know I said I wouldn't discuss this further but I found most of the quoted post to be incredibly inaccurate to what I have posted and I felt like I had the right to correct it.

However, you did bring up a good point showing data mining and hacking are both in the same basket.  In light of this, I would say I think none of it should be done.  I don't 'worship dataminers' or whatever you think. I'd rather have a clean experience where Nintendo can be trusting of me than know something a week early.  I will discuss them when they're leaked in their respective threads, but I wouldn't care if they went away.

[Ice Dragon]

29 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

You, however have to have root access and essentially break the terms of service.

Emulators technically also break the terms of service. So blaming the restrictions solely on hacking is hypocritical.

I'm calling on a whale to weigh in. They have a lot more stake in the game than most of us do.

@Ice Dragon

My opinion is still basically, "As long as you aren't causing trouble for legitimate players, do whatever the fuck you want."

The developers have every right to enforce their terms of service and players did agree to those terms of service whether they read them or not.

My view, though, is probably less from the perspective of a Mega Wishiwashi as it is just how I feel about the subject.

 

Now, I haven't read the terms of service (because they basically all say the same thing and I don't do anything that risks breaking them to care to read them most of the time), so I don't know how it applies to emulator use. If a valid argument can be made that emulator use is against the terms of service, then so be it; that's how it's written. If there isn't a valid argument, then it does fall under causing trouble for legitimate players (because then emulator players are considered legitimate).

So far it looks like all they've done is prevent players from making purchases from emulators, which is not unreasonable (they aren't permanently banning accounts or anything), though it does mean that I really, really hope my phone doesn't break anytime in the near future. (Thankfully, my new phone doesn't overheat to concerning levels while playing the game, which is what bricked my last phone.)

I do understand, though, that some people simply don't have the budget to spare for a phone and phone plan, but at the same time that technically does fall into the same bucket as not being able to afford a game console or PC. (If you do have the budget and are just lazy, then you really have no excuse.)

[Sire]

I am going to make a simple-minded response and just say this: "If it doesn't affect me, then I don't care."

Honestly, I don't mind people datamining or hacking things for the sake of entertainment or science. It's when hackers deliberately ruin the experience of other players (the "normal definition" of hackers, such as FPS aimbotters or multiplayer-hacked super teams) when it becomes an issue.

So, if one "hacks" heroes to make a "sandbox account" that is isolated away from the rest of the world, then I am completely fine with it. If I begin seeing hacked Arena teams or hacked results in the Voting Gauntlet, then that is when I take issues with hacking, Otherwise, just have fun and be responsible while doing so.
* * * * *
Hackers are going to hack. Pirates are gonna pirate. It mostly comes down to the company that runs the service. Provide a better service and/or access to the information, and some may not hack or pirate and just use the service instead. Putting up a massive barrier (a normal one is fine and expected) will begin to harm legitimate consumers. The question here then becomes, is the company to blame for over-protecting their product, or the hackers that may have prompted the response? Perspectives will differ, but I lean more toward the company being overprotective.

[shadowofchaos]

1 hour ago, Lushen said:

Please don't refer to someone as an uneducated party.  It makes more assumptions than I think you intended to. 

I don't intend to badger you with an argument you no longer wish to continue.

However, for the record, you weren't the target of the statement.

The other person who shifted blame immediately towards hackers for something that could be, arguably, been inevitable due to the terms of service/code of conduct. They didn't need to know how to hack to be educated about the ethics to know that what they said wasn't exactly backed up. While sifting through the terms of service can literally group emulator users in the same group as said hackers, from the company's perspective.

Their post was literally the kind of thing a mod I consulted with would cause an immediate lock on the other thread.

Edited April 6, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Augestein]

From what you've said, it's fine. No interaction with others? Sounds great. It's fun seeing crazy hypothetical builds anyways. 

[Ryu Yuki]

Well, like many others here, I don't see too much of a problem with it, as long as legitimate users are not affected. In this day and age, any remotely popular game will inevitably get hacked by someone, and I've kind of come to accept it as an inevitable part of life. It can sometimes even be beneficial, as we all know that datamining has been a very consistent and reliable source of information for many games. Although personally speaking, FE:H is one of those rare exceptions where I feel like we didn't really need it too much because we would have figured out the complete nature system on our own, given a week or two. There isn't really anything else worth datamining besides the occasional GHB focus summon that gets leaked, although even then the images simply might not exist until the day it arrives (It's happened often enough now).

At the same time, I'm pretty sure Nintendo / Intelligent Systems doesn't appreciate this behavior, although anyone is free to dispute me on that if they think I'm wrong. From a "Would the developers condone this practice" standpoint, then yeah, this is probably not the best idea ever. And perhaps this is an "uneducated response", because I certainly don't work for them (and I doubt anyone else here does either), but it really does seem like dealing with hackers has indeed been at least part of the reason behind certain decisions at Intelligent Systems headquarters. I won't say it's the only reason, because any respectable company-based decision is obviously considered with many factors in mind. But still, the early days of Arena were rampant with hilariously illegal teams such as 40+10 Anna or 10+10 Xander. I ran into them so much, and many over at the FE:H subreddit did as well, and thousands of complaints were probably sent in about the issue. I would like to think at least one of those decisions were inspired by the wave of feedback from the players, considering Intelligent Systems is admittedly really responsive to that.

But yes, while I doubt the developers would appreciate it, as for me, I don't see too much of a problem as long as my Arena ranking or score isn't screwed over as a result. Someone is going to do it no matter what, and the fact you're honest about it is a plus I think. Not to mention, certain content such as Custom SC's was only made possible through screwing with the game files a bit, and I really do enjoy those. Admittedly, I treat online game hacking and non-online game hacking as somewhat different, because games like FE:H are far more community-based and everyone is working hard because they want to show off their hard-earned (or luckily-pulled) teams to others. Many people would probably feel understandably upset should some random schmuck come along and poof a $1000+ team into existence without paying a single penny for it.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Ryu Yuki

[Katrisa]

Your whole topic basically points at one of the huge pain points in this game.  Skills being so highly valuable and being unable to pass them around more freely results in seriously hard decisions which do NOT promote healthy play.  

Essentially by binding abilities to another unit on one and only one transfer, no one is able to practically experiment.  On one hand this design is probably advantageous to people who are built for incredible strategy, plotting and calculating, and forming extremely well formed parties.  But the other 95%+ players likely survive on trial and error.  

So how do I feel about single player hacking.  When a game is online, I hate it in all its forms.  But when a game fails to grant players legitimate control of changing builds/abilities etc within reason.... then I don't frown so hard on the hacking.  Because internally I'm pissed off at the bad game design.  

So the long about answer is I think people will continually hack the single player game often separate of their core account) in order to explore what the developers failed to grant in terms of build design/support.  Personally I think they should have had a more reusable system... where say every character had "training points" enough to teach another unit say three core abilities.  And then on skill inheritance the training points are consumed.  The training points could then be restocked by, killing things with the ability owners unit.  Well tuned enough this would be a much more FUN and fair design.  Problem is it consumes of their monetary value... but as I've stated before I think their monetary design is horrible IMO.

[shadowofchaos]

1 hour ago, Katrisa said:

Problem is it consumes of their monetary value... but as I've stated before I think their monetary design is horrible IMO.

That's always the bad part about gacha games.

They are always designed to promote grinding and keep you working for the thing you want.

To make you personally invested in each and every one of the characters you choose to train.

Which really isn't for everyone.

At all.

[Ryu Yuki]

1 hour ago, shadowofchaos said:

That's always the bad part about gacha games.

They are always designed to promote grinding and keep you working for the thing you want.

To make you personally invested in each and every one of the characters you choose to train.

Which really isn't for everyone.

At all.

I know this is totally off-topic, but I gotta throw it out there. That's a really cute signature you have there. Also, if you don't mind, what does URL stand for in that message below your username? (Or is it a typo?)

But back to the topic, with your level of skill, how much of the game can be changed? Like, besides creating new units and manipulating stats, is there anything else of interest you might be able to do? Admittedly there isn't much in the game to mess around with, but the isolated account idea sounds like it has some potential and I'm rather curious about it.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Ryu Yuki

[Lyrai]

As long as I don't end up meeting with hacked accounts because of this, I'll be fine. But aside from the discussion itself, this does make me think of this instead:

If Nintendo is willing to entrust someone with an isolated account with unlimited access to every content, now, and in the future, but disables arena ranking, then it would be a nice thing to have. On a marketing strategy, I think this can lead to promotions and advertising on a third-person standpoint, increasing the likelihood of spending more on gacha through the use of trusted third-party involvement. I wonder if this is possible.

[shadowofchaos]

9 hours ago, Ryu Yuki said:

I know this is totally off-topic, but I gotta throw it out there. That's a really cute signature you have there. Also, if you don't mind, what does URL stand for in that message below your username? (Or is it a typo?)

But back to the topic, with your level of skill, how much of the game can be changed? Like, besides creating new units and manipulating stats, is there anything else of interest you might be able to do? Admittedly there isn't much in the game to mess around with, but the isolated account idea sounds like it has some potential and I'm rather curious about it.

Off topic stuff:

You must not have Japanese fonts/support enabled. It's the last set of lyrics on the vocal version of Tiz's "You are my Hope" from Bravely Default (which I still need to finish the game).

As for the game:

Sp

Rarity

Nature

Level/Merge (ban in a timely manner)

(The first three is why people got away with hacking for the most part)

Summon manipulation (insta-ban)

Morphing (insta-ban)

 

I don't know much else. I haven't actually gone into anything else.

Edited April 7, 2017 by shadowofchaos