Thoughts on Faye *spoilers*

[Thane]

Just now, ChibiToastExplosion said:

And, so? A lot of people in real life are just accessories to whatever fandom/religion/politics they belong to. I've met people like Faye, and they aren't my favorite people. But they do exist, and the refuse to grow up. It's a bad character trait to be sure, but it's a real one.

I'm unsure what you're trying to say here. "People like Faye exist, so we should ignore the fact that she's a boring character", is that right? 

1 minute ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

On the other half of the coin, it can be said that Conrad devalues the original story, not adding to it,

 

If that's your take on it then go ahead and make a thread. Start a debate. No one is stopping you.

[Baldrick]

5 minutes ago, Thane said:

 How can there be any form of uncertainty when the game beats you over the head with Alm and Celica's relationship while Faye is, again, an optional character who says nothing?

Because the developers think there is. You said the developers' intentions override FFM's headcanon, do you think your opinion overrides the developers' intentions?

[Thane]

Just now, Baldrick said:

Because the developers think there is. You said the developers' intentions override FFM's headcanon, do you think your opinion overrides the developers' intentions?

Because it actually aligns with the game itself. Intentions are all well and good, but sometimes they don't become more than that. Fates was meant to be a game about choices, and it isn't in practice.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Just now, Thane said:

I'm unsure what you're trying to say here. "People like Faye exist, so we should ignore the fact that she's a boring character", is that right? 

Boring is subjective; the majority of my favorites are from SD, "the flattest cast in history".

And no, but nice strawman. She obviously can't be that "boring" if she's causing this much of a stir.

As for your second point, I'd love to pull a Faye and jump the gun like the rest of this board, but I'll wait to see his english portrayal and the rest of the changes they made once iv'e seen the rest of the story before passing a wild judgement... crazy right?

All signs point to English Faye being toned down as well.

[Thane]

1 minute ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

And no, but nice strawman. She obviously can't be that "boring" if she's causing this much of a stir.

Now that is a strawman if I ever saw one. Does this mean Camilla is also well written?

Quote

As for your second point, I'd love to pull a Faye and jump the gun like the rest of this board, but I'll wait to see his english portrayal and the rest of the changes they made once iv'e seen the rest of the story before passing a wild judgement... crazy right?

Are you directing this at me? Because I've played the Japanese version; I'm not jumping the gun.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thane

[Armagon]

2 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

All signs point to English Faye being toned down as well.

Evidence: English Faye sounds more concerend over Alm and wants to keep him safe rather than actually being obbsessed with him.

[Junkhead]

She's adorable as fuck what.

[VincentASM]

Honestly, I don't have any issues with Faye and to a lesser extent Conrad. They're just side characters added to make the game more interesting for those who played the original.

As far as I'm concerned, Faye is literally just Malicia 2.0 and nobody really bat an eyelid about her. I'm assuming people just had certain expectations of Faye and were shocked to see what her character is really like. Likewise, I found Conrad to be a lot different to what I imagined, but in a good way.

Back to the Malicia comparison, she's basically a selfish child who does nothing but fawn over Marth and then latches onto Kris when he tries to intervene. Her ending is pretty much the same boat as well, but she was more of a "bad girl" than Faye.

Although unlike Mystery, you get to see a lot more Faye, so her character really shows.

Edited April 28, 2017 by VincentASM

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Just now, Thane said:

Now that is a strawman if I ever saw one. Does this mean Camilla is also well written?

Okay; revolving goalpost? Well written and boring are two different things to defend. I said Faye wasn't boring, but now that equates me to calling her well written?

She might be a lot better written in localization (because you know, it'll be a context that makes more sense for us), or she might be worse. I've chosen to wait and see instead of whine and cry. Henry got a ton of changes, and there is nothing to say Faye might not get a similar treatment if localization knows it won't resonate with us.

[Thane]

Just now, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Okay; revolving goalpost? Well written and boring are two different things to defend. I said Faye wasn't boring, but now that equates me to calling her well written?

No, I'm just, again, unsure where you're going with your arguments. Characters are automatically not a boring if people discuss them? That makes no sense, and there is no way for me to properly address such a nonsensical point.

2 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

She might be a lot better written in localization (because you know, it'll be a context that makes more sense for us), or she might be worse. I've chosen to wait and see instead of whine and cry. Henry got a ton of changes, and there is nothing to say Faye might not get a similar treatment if localization knows it won't resonate with us.

So even though this is a topic about Faye before the localization has been released, and I've played the Japanese version, I'm not allowed to offer my thoughts on the matter?

Also, how am I whining and crying? I'm just disappointed in Faye's wasted potential, and I think people are reading far too much into her writing.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

No, I'm just, again, unsure where you're going with your arguments. Characters are automatically not a boring if people discuss them? That makes no sense, and there is no way for me to properly address such a nonsensical point.

So even though this is a topic about Faye before the localization has been released, and I've played the Japanese version, I'm not allowed to offer my thoughts on the matter?

Also, how am I whining and crying? I'm just disappointed in Faye's wasted potential, and I think people are reading far too much into her writing.

If there is something to discuss, something must be there, right? How many discussions do you see about Dolph, or Vyland? It's not the only piece of evidence. To bring Camilla back in to the fold, she's not well written, and she's not likeable, but she's certainly not boring. Neither is Tharja. I don't like either of them, but I'll call a spade a spade, they aren't boring and they brought things to be discussed to the table, same with Faye.

It's not they are automatically not boring, but it's a sign they aren't.

You are allowed to offer your thoughts, and I understand you like to argue, but you haven't been overly receptive of people who don't share these thoughts. You get kind of combative, and even now you can't understand why I'm not willing to throw Faye on to a pike, or that I don't see her as "wasted potential". I see her the exact same way as I see the characters in the Gaiden chapters of SD: new additions that are easily ignored if I choose to do so.

I don't think we are going to convince each other at any rate, so I'm gonna drop it.

[Armagon]

5 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

As far as I'm concerned, Faye is literally just Malicia 2.0 and nobody really bat an eyelid about her. I'm assuming people just had certain expectations of Faye and were shocked to see what her character is really like. Likewise, I found Conrad to be a lot different to what I imagined, but in a good way.

Back to the Malicia comparison, she's basically a selfish child who does nothing but fawn over Marth and then latches onto Kris when he tries to intervene. Her ending is pretty much the same boat as well, but she was more of a "bad girl" than Faye.

Although unlike Mystery, you get to see a lot more Faye, so her character really shows.

I have to agree with this. People probably had high expecations for Faye, and when she turns out not the way they wanted, welp, she gets hated on.

Also, Malica is a prefect comparison. I've seen people saying Faye is Tharja 3.0 and i'm like "how?". And regarding their endings, Malica, like Faye, disappears. The difference is, for Malica, it's permanent, whereas for Faye, it's only sometimes. I bring up the disappearing part because that's what everyone seems to be focused on about Faye's ending. 

[Tryhard]

Vincent is pretty much on point with the Malicia comparison aside from Faye being more devoted.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Tryhard

[Baldrick]

3 minutes ago, Thane said:

Because it actually aligns with the game itself. Intentions are all well and good, but sometimes they don't become more than that. Fates was meant to be a game about choices, and it isn't in practice.

Now we've established the developers' word is not law. So is it not possible that Faye is an unintentional deconstruction?

 

9 minutes ago, Thane said:

So even though this is a topic about Faye before the localization has been released, and I've played the Japanese version, I'm not allowed to offer my thoughts on the matter?

Is FFM allowed to think Faye is a deconstruction? Am I allowed to think there's a love triangle?

[DaloDask]

I feel like tossing my two cents on the topic.

I feel a lot of the issues about Faye come down to the fact that she's a type of character we've seen done twice before in the form of Tharja and Camilla, and it wasn't exactly charming then to most people and it's not charming now.

However, from what I've read, there's a clear difference between these two and Faye. Faye's attitude isn't lorded as something great or of benefit to others around her, she doesn't have many other elements to call her own whereas Tharja and Camilla could be argued to have them.

Faye is what I'd call an extremely barebones character that represents everything the story likes to portray as bad, the unwillingness to change, to move forward and to compromise.

The issue is that it's kind of... All she is. Her personality's cute and charming, yes, but there's little there to keep people interested. There's not deep backstory, no extremely personal thing that sets her apart from everybody else.

She's meant to be portrayed as a character with a terrible mindset, and more specifically one who never grows out of it even when the world changes.

If anyone wants, they can call me completely off-base in my interpretation of things, but Faye seems like a character made because of not exactly the best of intentions, but in the end they decided to try and do SOMETHING with her.

The big issue is that's really all that's there, some big message about the themes of the game as a whole. (She's a character which, in any other case or game, would probably not get the bad ending)

Also I feel I should say something real-quick, why do some of you think it's okay for the localisation to alter an entire character for simply a release in another country? This type of talk leads to the only-good-for-memes-Effie of the localisation of Fates.

(If I'm horribly, horribly wrong about this, call me out. Please. I hate being wrong.)

[Thane]

Just now, Baldrick said:

Now we've established the developers' word is not law. So is it not possible that Faye is an unintentional deconstruction?

Highly unlikely given just how little there is to her and how the thing she's supposed to deconstruct isn't deconstructed at all.

2 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Is FFM allowed to think Faye is a deconstruction? Am I allowed to think there's a love triangle?

You're allowed to think whatever you want. However, just like most people wouldn't count a girl pining for a guy already in a relationship as a love triangle, I wouldn't call Faye part of one, either.

[Cat Villager]

I feel somewhat uneasy because adding even more shipbait for lords with canon love interests just adds more unneeded fuel to the fire. Now you're going to have more people being angry about Alm not being able to romance Faye/Clair/Silque instead of Celica or Celica not getting with...does she even have any shipbait with other characters?

I don't think it's good to compare Malicia to Faye because Malicia seems to be a comedic character with her delusions and obsession being played for laughs. Kind of like Roger.

 

[ChibiToastExplosion]

3 minutes ago, DaloDask said:

Also I feel I should say something real-quick, why do some of you think it's okay for the localisation to alter an entire character for simply a release in another country? This type of talk leads to the only-good-for-memes-Effie of the localisation of Fates.

Or the amazing cawesome-sauce that is Henry. He's definitely a +1 for localization.

I think it's fair to say Fates was a bad job with localization overall, but I'm not in the camp that thinks localization is inherently a bad thing.

[Armagon]

3 minutes ago, DaloDask said:

I feel a lot of the issues about Faye come down to the fact that she's a type of character we've seen done twice before in the form of Tharja and Camilla, and it wasn't exactly charming then to most people and it's not charming to now.

The issue is that it's kind of... All she is. Her personality's cute and charming, yes, but there's little there to keep people interested. There's not deep backstory, no extremely personal thing that sets her apart from everybody else.

Also I feel I should say something real-quick, why do some of you think it's okay for the localisation to alter an entire character for simply a release in another country? This type of talk leads to the only-good-for-memes-Effie of the localisation of Fates.

1. Except she's not Camilla or Tharja. And even if she was, she's super tame compared to them

2. Most characters don't have deep backstories. Even fan-favorites.

3. Because the average player isn't gonna care about what Japanese Faye did. For most people playing this game, English Faye will be the Faye they know.

[VincentASM]

10 minutes ago, Cat Villager said:

I don't think it's good to compare Malicia to Faye because Malicia seems to be a comedic character with her delusions and obsession being played for laughs. Kind of like Roger.

I can't disagree with the Malicia interpretation, but I really don't get the feeling Faye was being portrayed as a serious character.

I mean, I'm sure the developers wanted fans to think deeply and come up with their own interpretations, but I feel like she's no more serious than the other side characters in Echoes. Some of which are pretty silly as well.

I actually laughed pretty hard during the Prologue when Faye was like "Oh, Alm and Celica are going to get married, huh?" and looking all depressed. Maybe it's just me though.

On the other hand, I did like Alm and Faye's A conversation. The girl clearly can't move on, but she's smart and knows to make the most of her time with Alm before he leaves. I actually do think that's a bit of growth, if not the amount some people were hoping for. Likewise with her A conversation with Silque.

Edited April 28, 2017 by VincentASM

[DaloDask]

Just now, Armagon said:

1. Except she's not Camilla or Tharja. And even if she was, she's super tame compared to them

2. Most characters don't have deep backstories. Even fan-favorites.

3. Because the average player isn't gonna care about what Japanese Faye did. For most people playing this game, English Faye will be the Faye they know.

The point was to emphasise that they share an increasingly common character trait that we'd just seen in the past two games.

Yes, that is true. Your point regarding this is? She doesn't have the deep backstory, fun personality or interesting interactions that other characters possess that make them inherently likeable, or at the very least not to the degree where it's something people note all the time. You don't need a deep backstory, but it is certainly something that can help when it comes to reception.

Yes. Which is why i ask the question of why people WANT the localisation to alter her. English Faye will be the one they know, and my point is that we shouldn't want them to alter it. English Faye should receive the same ending she deserves as the Japanese version, and come off the same way, that way we judge it as 'Faye' and not 'Localisation Faye', and no separation needs to occur, like with previous shenanigans. English Faye should do the same things as Japanese Faye because they are the same character.

[Baldrick]

8 minutes ago, DaloDask said:

Also I feel I should say something real-quick, why do some of you think it's okay for the localisation to alter an entire character for simply a release in another country? This type of talk leads to the only-good-for-memes-Effie of the localisation of Fates.

Because Japanese is different from English. This is only what I've heard, but you can apparently tell a lot about someone's personality from the way they speak, that simply can't be replicated in English. So a straight translation will make characters seem blander, so you need to punch them up. Altering them may be a bit extreme, but in Faye's case it sounds like you couldn't make her any worse.

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, DaloDask said:

Yes, that is true. Your point regarding this is? She doesn't have the deep backstory, fun personality or interesting interactions that other characters possess that make them inherently likeable, or at the very least not to the degree where it's something people note all the time. You don't need a deep backstory, but it is certainly something that can help when it comes to reception.

Yes. Which is why i ask the question of why people WANT the localisation to alter her. English Faye will be the one they know, and my point is that we shouldn't want them to alter it. English Faye should receive the same ending she deserves as the Japanese version, and come off the same way, that way we judge it as 'Faye' and not 'Localisation Faye', and no separation needs to occur, like with previous shenanigans. English Faye should do the same things as Japanese Faye because they are the same character.

1. Well see, that's entierly subjective. I mean, Sigurd is a pretty popular character in the series, but i don't like him (he's my least favorite Lord). And of course "fun" is different depending on the person.

2. Because for them, the localization is the game they will experience. On that note, you can't possibly tell me that English Henry should be the same as Japanese Henry. I guarantee that most people prefer English Henry over Japanese Henry.

[FrostyFireMage]

47 minutes ago, Thane said:

I'm unsure what you're trying to say here. "People like Faye exist, so we should ignore the fact that she's a boring character", is that right? 

...Yes? Not every character needs to be fascinating

[DaloDask]

7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

2. Because for them, the localization is the game they will experience. On that note, you can't possibly tell me that English Henry should be the same as Japanese Henry. I guarantee that most people prefer English Henry over Japanese Henry.

I, personally, would have loved to have simply judged Henry as Henry instead of having to put a mental disclaimer that it's 'Localised' Henry and not actual Henry.

I'd rather just experience the script as the script of the game. I'd rather have judged Henry as an edgelord edging all those fake smiles as such instead of now having pun-Henry stuck in my head forever.

My point is that we shouldn't be asking the localisation to start changing things because at some point you hit the fanfictionalised territory of Fates and I'd rather not experience that mess again.

That's not to say there's nothing wrong with alterations here and there that don't alter the context, tone and intent behind something, but when people experience Fates and see that Soleil has 8 platonic supports it can send the wrong message about her character.

Quote

Because Japanese is different from English. This is only what I've heard, but you can apparently tell a lot about someone's personality from the way they speak, that simply can't be replicated in English. So a straight translation will make characters seem blander, so you need to punch them up. Altering them may be a bit extreme, but in Faye's case it sounds like you couldn't make her any worse.

Punching them up is certainly a good idea, but the alterations people seem to be pushing are ones that would change the core of her character.

There's nothing wrong with making Clive talk like the suave fancy-man that he is, but where exactly is the line to be drawn? Is the line drawn at her approach to Alm's refusal? Is it altering her ending? Is it changing the fact that she doesn't move on?

My main point is that there's a thin line between quality-of-life changes to make it better for the average reader/listener, and going well over the limit.

Edited April 28, 2017 by DaloDask