Lord's Love Interests

[Augestein]

1 hour ago, Ebony said:

Unfortunately in games with m/f options, the male option is the canon one just about 100% of the time. The only exception I can think of is in Fate/Extra where they both exist, but then the female dies anyway.

Not really. It seems pretty even split as a lot of games that have you able to choose which sex you are either: 

a) Doesn't matter, like some games like Gladius, Monster Racers, Digimon games and there's no actual sequel to confirm.

b) Seems to be pretty random. Like Knights of the Old Republic Revan is canonically male, but KOTOR2 the Exile is canonically female. With the "canon" being dubious at best because it's technically all non-canon now. Or Bioware games  in general where the default has been back and forth-- like Dragon Age, it's been female Warden, male Hawke, and we don't know what the inquisitor is. 

c) Forces a canon based on decisions that you made in the sequel ala choosing to be Ashe in Mega Man ZX-Advent makes "Vent" the male canon for that playthrough while choosing Grey makes "Aile" the female canon for that playthrough. 

I can think of more games where it doesn't force a sex over a force of the sex. 

 

Quote

Or it could mean M!Corrin is canon.

Heirs of Fates would disagree. And so would the Outerrealm Gates. Those things seem to imply that everything is canon. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Augestein

[Acacia Sgt]

I would think that it comes down to how much focus the interactions between the Lord and its Love Interest, implied or otherwise, are. Both in the amount of coverage and how it develops. But also, I don't think FE has ever had the right format for this. Mostly, in that I think it has to happen through non-optional means. Back in the days where pairings were set, you had hardware limitations on text, and/or how much "If" conditions you could have, or afford to have. Which also brings to my other point, the permadeath aspect FE has had since Day 1. This is what has mostly kept characters from having non-optional scenes much. Nowadays, we have characters that don't die even in Classic Mode, but ultimately we still have PC's not showing up, or with "If" conditions tied to them. After all, in the early games, dialogue was pretty much between the Lord and NPC's (Marth had Malledus and Nyna, Leif had August and Dorias, etc.), and PC's that were only just joining or would join eventually. And nowadays, we have "free-range shipping", which discourages the practice of a "main" Love Interest, as some don't take it well (like with Sumia, for example); not that it stopped people in the past, but still.

---

As an aside, in the whole discussion about canon and ability of choice, one needs to understand that it is ultimately the creators' desicion if they want to leave things open-ended or not. It's their choice. As well, the ability of choice for things like customizable characters is mostly for the sake of the gameplay, not so much the story.

[a bear]

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm aware but two people talking to each other once or twice does not a relationship make. I thought this was a "Love interest" thread not the "Who I imagine would make a good couple if they actually had a meaningful relationship" thread. On that subject, however, I hope I'm not the only one who ships Bobo Fett x Sarlacc pit.

You thought wrong!

Micaiah x Zelgius is just one of those things I like based off potential rather than what can explicitly happen. It's the same case for almost every single romantic pairing in RD anyway, including Ike's bro endings for not being any more clear than Ike x Elincia in English PoR.

Also the idea of canon romances or player genders in Awakening or Fates is just plain silly. Canon is for sequels and such to clarify on old variables for the sake of simplicity. Very few exclusive events actually require that level of unambiguity, things like "Abel survives the events of FE1" or "Ike beats the Black Knight in FE9."

[Jonnas]

I think a good love interest needs to A. Be a compelling character in their own right (even a satellite character can be written well); and B. Believably be someone that the other party would want or need in their life (romantically).

So, obsessive characters like Faye, Clair or Cordelia can fulfill A, but not necessarily B (because Alm and Chrom clearly don't care for them). Meanwhile, Sothe is the other side of the coin, since he fulfills B (Micaiah relies on him for emotional support), but is absolutely uninteresting as a character.

---

Now for what I would choose for each lord (I'll skip Fates, Akaneia, Valentia and Jugdral, since I only played a handful of chapters from each at the most)...

Lilina is the obvious choice for Roy, Sure, he's got plenty of potential wives, but Lilina's his childhood friend, would gladly marry another Marquess, and actually looks his age. If Roy was more developed as a character, maybe I'd prefer Shanna, Sue or Larum, but as it stands, Lilina makes the most sense to me.

I love the Eliwood/Ninian pairing, much more now than when I first played the game as a teenager. As a teen, I thought it was boring, a generic fairytale "White Knight and Damsel in Distress" pairing, but now I appreciate that they're those archetypes done right. They actually have dialogue building up their relationship (looking at you, Sigurd), their supports actually evolve believably (unlike most supports that feel like 3 conversations one after the other, their supports feel like a montage of snippets from their relationship. C is asking her out, B are the long talks they share as a couple, A is dealing with serious issues), and their archetypes fit each other perfectly. I know Fiora and Lyn are also options, and they would be decent by themselves, but Ninian works so much better. The only thing souring the pairing is that the writers tried to have their cake and eat it too by imposing a tragedy that didn't really stick.

For Lyn... I really like the chemistry she's got with Hector, I do, but I don't think they would ever get married, as their goals in life don't gel. No, her best ship is Lyn/Plains . But if I were to choose a person instead, then Rath, Kent or Florina would all be good for her. Maybe Rath, since she seems to have a crush on the guy from the start.

To me, Hector's best choice is Farina. Sadly, their support conversation ends abruptly (really needed an S to tie the whole thing together). He's great with Lyn but she wouldn't stay for him. Florina is just a terrible choice (always felt like wish fulfillment for awkward shy girls, honestly). Though to be honest, the likeliest possibility is a diplomatic marriage with some noblewoman from some Lycian house (considering his character arc, tying his marriage to his responsibilities as Marquess makes sense).

I like Ephraim/Tana, and it sounds the likeliest. She's got a crush on him, shows emotional support when needed (in my first playthrough, I legit thought that conversation was tied to the A support I had unlocked with her), and it makes sense from a political perspective.

Eirika goes well with either Seth or Forde (I prefer the latter, but both are good). I dislike her support with Innes too much to include him.

PoR pushes Ike/Elincia, and does a good job of it. I just wish RD had written a good break-up to go along with it. Speaking of RD, Ike's ending of "leaving the continent" makes so little sense. What, are the Greil mercenaries fine without him? Regardless, Ike remaining single fits his characterization in RD best. His pairing with Soren doesn't really work romantically (one-sided affection at best), and his pairing with Ranulf feels rushed.

And in Awakening... I'm only halfway through, and don't want to declare favourites (though I do find Chrom/Sumia to be delightfully dorky).

1 hour ago, Ebony said:

Unfortunately in games with m/f options, the male option is the canon one just about 100% of the time. The only exception I can think of is in Fate/Extra where they both exist, but then the female dies anyway.

In such games, the male option is often the default option, not necessarily the canon one. It's an important distinction. For example, in Super Smash Bros, Wii Fit Trainer's default choice is female, but Wii Fit has no canon to speak of. Corrin's default choice in that same game is male, but in his home game, there's no definite canon choice (it's "either/or" for Corrin's gender).

[NekoKnight]

3 hours ago, Jonnas said:

I think a good love interest needs to A. Be a compelling character in their own right (even a satellite character can be written well); and B. Believably be someone that the other party would want or need in their life (romantically).

So, obsessive characters like Faye, Clair or Cordelia can fulfill A, but not necessarily B (because Alm and Chrom clearly don't care for them). Meanwhile, Sothe is the other side of the coin, since he fulfills B (Micaiah relies on him for emotional support), but is absolutely uninteresting as a character.

>Faye and Clair
>Compelling, well written characters

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Is there a reason why Sothe is uninteresting compared to the other characters you mentioned?

6 hours ago, Augestein said:

Heirs of Fates would disagree. And so would the Outerrealm Gates. Those things seem to imply that everything is canon. 

Do you realize how pointless it is to add "Technically everything is canon in a multiverse of infinite possibilities" to the discussion? We can't even have a discussion if all possible realities are treated as equal. Imagine if someone said "I hate how people always say Alm x Celica is canon. There is probably a parallel world to SoV where he decides to go back to Ram village and marry Faye. That's just as canon." Wouldn't that be silly?

Edited May 3, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Augestein]

Just now, NekoKnight said:

Do you realize how pointless it is to add "Technically everything is canon in a multiverse of infinite possibilities" to the discussion? We can't even have a discussion if all possible realities are treated as equal.

Uh... Yes we can. Let's think about the questions asked by the OP: 

Quote

What are your feelings about what makes a good love interest? Do you think any of the ones provided have met that? What would you change if you were to make your own?

What does that have to do with canon or not? Not much. Let's use an example: Sothe x Micaiah is a pairing that isn't canon, however, the relationship they have with one another is, and if it were a romantic pairing, it's a good one on the account that they are way passed the fledgling "I love you! I LOVE YOU MORE!" Stages. Incest or not, it's still one of the better pairings in the series in terms of how it's handled. 

[NekoKnight]

1 minute ago, Augestein said:

Uh... Yes we can. Let's think about the questions asked by the OP: 

What does that have to do with canon or not? Not much. Let's use an example: Sothe x Micaiah is a pairing that isn't canon, however, the relationship they have with one another is, and if it were a romantic pairing, it's a good one on the account that they are way passed the fledgling "I love you! I LOVE YOU MORE!" Stages. Incest or not, it's still one of the better pairings in the series in terms of how it's handled. 

I'm not talking about OP's original question, I'm talking about the current discussion going on concerning canon love interests. If all possibilities are deemed equal, then nothing and everything is canon.

[Augestein]

4 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm not talking about OP's original question, I'm talking about the current discussion going on concerning canon love interests. If all possibilities are deemed equal, then nothing and everything is canon.

When there are distinct pairings for them? Yes. I don't see what's wrong with that. It's not like we're suddenly talking about say... Pairings like Scarlet x Ryoma, as those are 100% non-canon as they cannot be done. So yes, even if we're talking about the discussion at hand, they still can be talked about. 

And more pressingly, Heirs of Fate would disagree with Male Corrin being canon as there is a male and female Kana which would imply that there is a male and female Corrin respectively. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Augestein

[NekoKnight]

Just now, Augestein said:

When there are distinct pairings for them? Yes. I don't see what's wrong with that. It's not like we're suddenly talking about say... Pairings like Scarlet x Ryoma, as those are 100% non-canon as they cannot be done. So yes, even if we're talking about the discussion at hand, they still can be talked about. 

I don't care for the multiverse shenanigans because something becomes a possible canon as soon as anyone writes it. Scarlet x Ryoma is 100% non-canon... or is it? Who's to say that they don't hook up in an alternate continuity of Fates? If Heirs of Fates can insert a brand new alternate canon, really anything else can be canon too. Which completely devalues the meaning of the word and the basis of the discussion. 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Caeda x Marth is my favorite, liked both character, really like Caeda, and it manage to limit itself at the right point and funny enough it singlehandedly exposes everything that can go wrong with Lord x Love Interest relationship in the future.

[a bear]

46 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Scarlet x Ryoma is 100% non-canon... or is it? Who's to say that they don't hook up in an alternate continuity of Fates?

Fates says, that's who. The implication of alternate universes here is that every choice a player can make in Fates has been made somewhere, sometime, by someone, and each option is as correct as every other. It works as long as IS leaves things open-ended, which they generally do outside of using specific designs for Robins and Corrins in Smash and Heroes and such.

Granted, yes, there are some options that are pushed harder than others for whatever reason (Roy x Lilina, Revelation, etc.), and you're free to consider some of these more worthy of discussion. You'd be robbing yourself of some primo material for the conversation everyone else is actually having, but that's your decision. You do you.

[NekoKnight]

3 minutes ago, a bear said:

Fates says, that's who. The implication of alternate universes here is that every choice a player can make in Fates has been made somewhere, sometime, by someone, and each option is as correct as every other. It works as long as IS leaves things open-ended, which they generally do outside of using specific designs for Robins and Corrins in Smash and Heroes and such.

I'm more inclined to think that player choices are representative of flexible gameplay rather than legitimate story decisions. Could Xander make a Hoshidan peasant (Mozu) the next queen of Nohr? Yes, by gameplay and multiverse logic, you could say that's as equally canon as any other pairing, but I find it unlikely.

11 minutes ago, a bear said:

Granted, yes, there are some options that are pushed harder than others for whatever reason (Roy x Lilina, Revelation, etc.), and you're free to consider some of these more worthy of discussion. You'd be robbing yourself of some primo material for the conversation everyone else is actually having, but that's your decision. You do you.

I'm aware that Heirs of Fate and other Outrealms nonsense opens the door to "choose whatever canon you like" but I think it's more harmful to good storytelling. I don't find that to be "primo material" for discussion. I'd rather bring up evidence for certain pairings (such as Sumia vs Olivia for Chrom or Hector vs Rath for Lyn) rather than default to "everything the game lets you do is canon lel"

[L9999]

I honestly want old school pairings back. The varied pairings just create flamewars that waste everyone's time. 

4 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

>Faye and Clair
>Compelling, well written characters

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Do you realize how pointless it is to add "Technically everything is canon in a multiverse of infinite possibilities" to the discussion? We can't even have a discussion if all possible realities are treated as equal. Imagine if someone said "I hate how people always say Alm x Celica is canon. There is probably a parallel world to SoV where he decides to go back to Ram village and marry Faye. That's just as canon." Wouldn't that be silly?

Faye is hilarious, you just don't get it.  Also, multiverses are just a cheap device for desperate people to validate their views, and I find that cowardly and lazy from the writers. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by L9999

[bethany81707]

6 minutes ago, L9999 said:

I honestly want old school pairings back. The varied pairings just create flamewars that waste everyone's time. 

Case in point, this topic. I'm only slightly joking there.

While it has largely devolved into ship wars, I have learned some things pertinent to Sammy's development. Namely, make him/her their own character: and I imagine that I can get some good stuff just by spinning their main character trait out a little further (that being they're attracted to kindness like a moth to flame).

You've got an arc where he's remembering the roots of his fear, and why he left his home to join Riley so readily. You've got an arc where she fears Riley's turned against the traits that attracted her to him in the first place, and takes a stand to make sure he knows that. And then you've got the one where she starts repaying Riley's kindness to make sure she knows she's made an impact.

Spoiler

And absolutely none of that made sense because of the fact that there was no indication that there is a many-worlds take on the story. There are three Rileys and three Sammys in three distinct interpretations of the same story, with different gender match-ups each time. Each 'arc' described is in a different one of the many-worlds.

That's why the two names are gender-neutral.

 

[Jonnas]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

>Faye and Clair
>Compelling, well written characters

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Is there a reason why Sothe is uninteresting compared to the other characters you mentioned?

Well, that'll teach me to write a post when I'm sleepy :P Not sure why I mentioned those two, as I'm not that familiar with Gaiden/Echoes yet. I should've mentioned Soren, who illustrates the point far better (and makes for a better comparison to Sothe, since they're from the same game and all).

Thinking about it, Roy/Lilina (much like Micaiah/Sothe) is also an example of a pairing that makes sense, but one of the characters is not interesting at all. True to form, I don't feel too strongly about it, and chose it by default more than anything else.

[Augestein]

4 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm more inclined to think that player choices are representative of flexible gameplay rather than legitimate story decisions. Could Xander make a Hoshidan peasant (Mozu) the next queen of Nohr? Yes, by gameplay and multiverse logic, you could say that's as equally canon as any other pairing, but I find it unlikely.

I'm aware that Heirs of Fate and other Outrealms nonsense opens the door to "choose whatever canon you like" but I think it's more harmful to good storytelling. I don't find that to be "primo material" for discussion. I'd rather bring up evidence for certain pairings (such as Sumia vs Olivia for Chrom or Hector vs Rath for Lyn) rather than default to "everything the game lets you do is canon lel"

I'm not. Selena, Odin, and Laslow are a prime example that the game utilizes the multiverse theory even without resorting to DLC. We know that these three are Awakening children. But what gives away the fact that there is a multitverse of some sort. The fact that they even exist is a multiverse thought as we have Selena with red hair, and that's no even possible for her with any of her possible parents. Sure, we could argue that this means that Cordelia could have married someone with red hair (note, we still aren't using DLC so no magic to know how), but if we DO use DLC, it gets even worse where the game goes out of its way to say that her hair could have been *any* color aside from the red we  have here. Which again, is a blatant contradiction of her "canon" artwork. And with Xander, who is to say he's didn't? After all, his single ending says that he was unpopular as a ruler, so who knows what he did to become unpopular besides being Xander. 

Um... That is evidence for why certain pairings might be better. What it isn't are arguments about what's supposed to be canon. Multiverse does hurt storytelling in the fact that things can't be as developed because there's a multiverse, but it's already a thing in game, so I don't even understand what you're trying to argue here. That's not the same as going "everything is canon. No point in discussing the merits of each pairing!" This whole thing started because you were saying "male Corrin is canon." When the reality is that he's not. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Augestein

[shadowofchaos]

9 hours ago, Augestein said:

And more pressingly, Heirs of Fate would disagree with Male Corrin being canon as there is a male and female Kana which would imply that there is a male and female Corrin respectively. 

Or this:

In a game that had DLC that had specific lines to address that there are no canon pairings for Awakening, and the fact that a couple has (supposedly) has a honeymoon in a distorted time dimension that is pretty much sounds like something from an eroge and has a kid that grows up in said time dimension... also not being able to address siblings being separated because that is a coding disaster...

Taking the outrealms seriously for pairing justification is something I can't do.

Especially since the game literally does not change without the children.

Same with Awakening.

The pairing system is largely optional and does not serve the plot. Hell, it essentially kills any plot if the spouse is a main character.

Xander in Conquest especially. Would he just unhesitatingly kill his wife for speaking bad of his father if that were the circumstances?

Edited May 3, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[a bear]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm aware that Heirs of Fate and other Outrealms nonsense opens the door to "choose whatever canon you like" but I think it's more harmful to good storytelling. I don't find that to be "primo material" for discussion. I'd rather bring up evidence for certain pairings (such as Sumia vs Olivia for Chrom or Hector vs Rath for Lyn) rather than default to "everything the game lets you do is canon lel"

The thread is about the quality of love interests, specifically for the sake of the OP's writing skillz. There's absolutely nothing to gain by indiscriminately excluding tons of concrete examples -- which are still worth examining despite generally sucking -- for the sake of honoring (head)canon, and derailing this thread to seek the almighty "correct" choice because that's what you wanna do is pretty shitty.

@phineas81707 Do be careful when writing three parallel stories, them's frightful bad luck.

[bethany81707]

10 hours ago, a bear said:

The thread is about the quality of love interests, specifically for the sake of the OP's writing skillz. There's absolutely nothing to gain by indiscriminately excluding tons of concrete examples -- which are still worth examining despite generally sucking -- for the sake of honoring (head)canon, and derailing this thread to seek the almighty "correct" choice because that's what you wanna do is pretty shitty.

@phineas81707 Do be careful when writing three parallel stories, them's frightful bad luck.

That's the fun part.

[darkblade2814]

I go for every thing that is canon or most likely canon (Chrom and Sumia, Azura and Corin, Ninian and Eliwood, Roy and Liliana)

[SSbardock84]

I'll do ones not listed in OP that I think make the most sense:

Rath x Lyn

Hector x Farina

Male Corrin x Azura

Eirika x Innes