Rudolf

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

I'm afraid this is not a satisfactory answer because you simply repeat what the game tells us. Rudolf's plan is still shaky as hell and borders on him being capable of foreseeing the future for him to pull it off.

That still doesn't explain why he didn't go for Duma first, why he'd need to start a war and risk pretty much every life on the continent, and trusting prophecies to make it all right is not only immensely cheap writing, but also seems to go against Rudolf's personality of believing in mankind's strength rather than something supernatural. Hell, the guy came super close to breaking Zofia and turn it into a complete and utter hellhole, yet he expected them to kill Duma for him? How does that work?

The plan I laid out requires not prophesies or foresight to complete. Hoping Alm will save everyone is what Rudolf is forced to do after Mila seals the sword away. As for not sealing Duma first, as others have explained, doing so would inevitably lead to a civil war in Rigel which would significantly weaken his ability to seal Mila. Gaining Duma's trust and help in sealing Mila and then betraying Duma is a much smarter idea. It's not directly said in game but I do think this is what they're going for. Otherwise the addition of Mila sealing Falchion away doesn't really add much to the story other than a little bit more despair at the end. Likely someone realized Rudolf could have just sealed Doma himself and that's why they had Mila nerf Falchion.

[Thane]

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The plan I laid out requires not prophesies or foresight to complete.

It still starts off at the wrong end. As far as we know, Mila is still sane and can be reasoned with, Duma is not. He was much closer to Duma, in a place where he had the vast majority of the authority. Now, we've discussed possible assassination attempts, but it's not like Alm is immune to teleporting madmen with knives.

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Hoping Alm will save everyone is what Rudolf is forced to do after Mila seals the sword away.

So he keeps waging a war against Zofia, throwing away the lives of people from both countries, just to keep up appearances, rather than informing Alm of all this.

Also, at the end of the day, Rudolf, the man who believes in mankind's strength, relies on fate, prophecies and miracles.

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

As for not sealing Duma first, as others have explained, doing so would inevitably lead to a civil war in Rigel which would significantly weaken his ability to seal Mila.

Instead, that's what happens in Zofia, which he relies on to bail him out with Duma. Also, Rudolf sealed Mila really, really easily.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Thane

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Thane said:

It still starts off at the wrong end. As far as we know, Mila is still sane and can be reasoned with, Duma is not. He was much closer to Duma, in a place where he had the vast majority of the authority. Now, we've discussed possible assassination attempts, but it's not like Alm is immune to teleporting madmen with knives.

So he keeps waging a war against Zofia, throwing away the lives of people from both countries, just to keep up appearances, rather than informing all of all this.

Also, at the end of the day, Rudolf, the man who believes in mankind's strength, relies on fate, prophecies and miracles.

Instead, that's what happens in Zofia, which he relies on to bail him out with Duma. Also, Rudolf sealed Mila really, really easily.

Mila is not sane as far as we know. She looked hella evil in that cutscene and was not doing her job. And even if she was sane it would be damn hard to convince her to seal herself away (she went berserk as soon as she saw the sword). Yes, he is much closer to Duma, and yes he probably could have sealed him away. But if he did, then how would he have sealed away Mila? His country with have broken and not fit for an invasion whether the Duma faithful could kill him or not. Sofia might be the softer of the two but its still no push over. It took years for them to achieve victory even with Desaix's help (recall there is talk of conflict in the prologue which is about eight to ten years before the story starts).

As for keeping up the war, he doesn't actually. Desaix is the one going mad and killing people at the start of the game. Rigel has a presence at Zofia castle but they haven't invaded and lands beyond what they've needed to. Alm is the one that pushes further into Rigel territory and even then Rudolf does very little to stop him from what we see. And by that point he has no other real options. He believes in the strength of men but so long as the sword's power is sealed all he can rely on is that Alm can win the day in a way that he can't.

[maybe]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Mila is not sane as far as we know. She looked hella evil in that cutscene and was not doing her job. And even if she was sane it would be damn hard to convince her to seal herself away (she went berserk as soon as she saw the sword). Yes, he is much closer to Duma, and yes he probably could have sealed him away. But if he did, then how would he have sealed away Mila? His country with have broken and not fit for an invasion whether the Duma faithful could kill him or not. Sofia might be the softer of the two but its still no push over. It took years for them to achieve victory even with Desaix's help (recall there is talk of conflict in the prologue which is about eight to ten years before the story starts).

As for keeping up the war, he doesn't actually. Desaix is the one going mad and killing people at the start of the game. Rigel has a presence at Zofia castle but they haven't invaded and lands beyond what they've needed to. Alm is the one that pushes further into Rigel territory and even then Rudolf does very little to stop him from what we see. And by that point he has no other real options. He believes in the strength of men but so long as the sword's power is sealed all he can rely on is that Alm can win the day in a way that he can't.

i feel like mila being insane could've been a little better established

like, sure, we can sort of infer it from that cutscene, but nothing else in thre game realuly points to that

the whole "we don't need gods" thing doesn't really work when mila really doesn't do much wrong and the only thing going against her is that she's slightly implied to be insane

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, unique said:

i feel like mila being insane could've been a little better established

like, sure, we can sort of infer it from that cutscene, but nothing else in thre game realuly points to that

the whole "we don't need gods" thing doesn't really work when mila really doesn't do much wrong and the only thing going against her is that she's slightly implied to be insane

Well we don't have much to go on that Duma's even insane either. Like sure he has a pretty evil aesthetic with the zombies and the bogs but it seems the most out of character thing he did was consenting to seal Mila away. Even the whole devouring people's souls angle he's only doing to willing sacrifices (which might suggest malevolence but not really insanity). Not that Mila or Duma's insanity even has much to do with Rudolf's plan since he believes humanity is better off without depending on the gods.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Jotari

[Thane]

53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Mila is not sane as far as we know. She looked hella evil in that cutscene and was not doing her job.

You mean in the cutscene where she's being confronted by the only weapon capable of killing her, showing that Duma has betrayed her? I can't imagine why her face would be twisted for a second.

54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And even if she was sane it would be damn hard to convince her to seal herself away (she went berserk as soon as she saw the sword).

More time to discuss things, more time to find another solution that doesn't involve a war engulfing the entire continent and causing famine and droughts. If Mila knew of she'd go insane, and genuinely loved her people, then she should've taken precaution and maybe even offed herself when necessary, just like Anankos should've done.

55 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But if he did, then how would he have sealed away Mila?

The game does a horrible, horrible job of arguing for why Mila should be sealed in the first place. Duma is represented by some of the most cartoonishly evil characters in the series, and Mila is praised constantly by all the good guys. Her disappearance leads to droughts and famine, and at the end of the day she saves Celica with the last of her powers. We've got no solid reason for as to why she should be sealed off. You might say it's because Zofians squander her gifts, but isn't that the Zofians' fault? And if that's all, why can't they ask her to tone it down a notch, rather than going for the most extreme solution right off the bat? 

57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

His country with have broken and not fit for an invasion whether the Duma faithful could kill him or not.

You mean just like Zofia? We've got zero reason to believe Zofia would be capable of invading Rigel. They suffered a civil war, famine, drought, blocked trade routes, rampant bandit problems and more, and yet they manage to field an army that can take on Rigel, which is supposed to be much, much stronger than Zofia in terms of military?

59 minutes ago, Jotari said:

As for keeping up the war, he doesn't actually. Desaix is the one going mad and killing people at the start of the game. Rigel has a presence at Zofia castle but they haven't invaded and lands beyond what they've needed to.

Northern Zofia is swarmed by Rigelian forces, man, and they were the ones who helped Desaix come into power. So not only does Rudolf have forces in Zofia to stop Alm, but in Rigel as well - how does he know Alm will be able to reach him with Zofia in that sorry state? 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Alm is the one that pushes further into Rigel territory and even then Rudolf does very little to stop him from what we see.

Do you mean besides having forces at strongholds and forts blocking the way and sending Berkut, the best general in the country, to the border?

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And by that point he has no other real options. He believes in the strength of men but so long as the sword's power is sealed all he can rely on is that Alm can win the day in a way that he can't.

Which should tell you just how stupid this plan is.

[B.Leu]

Thane make a good point, Ruru think that men should take things in their own hands, but believe that his kid should finish things because he has a cross-scar mark on his hand.
I know killing/sealing the local god isn't too good for popularity, but still. Or at least at first. Replaying Echoes here, and a surprising amount of NPCs doesn't seem to give much damn about it.

Imo, it make sense that Rudolf would want to take care of Mila first, she is the weaker, pacific, and probably dumber one (and annoying) one, but Duma is a true power house that is sleeping right in the castle's toilet making coffee, doujin and necro thngs. Better take care of the one far away from home first, then taking care of Duma.
Which makes me wonder why he didn't do it in the original game. Did he feel like he wwas too weak or what ?

I would also like to know why Mila believed it was a smart idea to seal the Falchion away just to make use it in the exact same manner like Rudolf intended to, and to use it as a deus ex machina later. They kinda screwed up her sealing and madness.
I'm replaying the game hard mode, maybe I missed something.

Edited May 30, 2017 by B.Leu

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Thane said:

You mean in the cutscene where she's being confronted by the only weapon capable of killing her, showing that Duma has betrayed her? I can't imagine why her face would be twisted for a second.

More time to discuss things, more time to find another solution that doesn't involve a war engulfing the entire continent and causing famine and droughts. If Mila knew of she'd go insane, and genuinely loved her people, then she should've taken precaution and maybe even offed herself when necessary, just like Anankos should've done.

The game does a horrible, horrible job of arguing for why Mila should be sealed in the first place. Duma is represented by some of the most cartoonishly evil characters in the series, and Mila is praised constantly by all the good guys. Her disappearance leads to droughts and famine, and at the end of the day she saves Celica with the last of her powers. We've got no solid reason for as to why she should be sealed off. You might say it's because Zofians squander her gifts, but isn't that the Zofians' fault? And if that's all, why can't they ask her to tone it down a notch, rather than going for the most extreme solution right off the bat? 

You mean just like Zofia? We've got zero reason to believe Zofia would be capable of invading Rigel. They suffered a civil war, famine, drought, blocked trade routes, rampant bandit problems and more, and yet they manage to field an army that can take on Rigel, which is supposed to be much, much stronger than Zofia in terms of military?

Northern Zofia is swarmed by Rigelian forces, man, and they were the ones who helped Desaix come into power. So not only does Rudolf have forces in Zofia to stop Alm, but in Rigel as well - how does he know Alm will be able to reach him with Zofia in that sorry state? 

Do you mean besides having forces at strongholds and forts blocking the way and sending Berkut, the best general in the country, to the border?

Which should tell you just how stupid this plan is.

Your quoting each individual part of my text but I don't think your actually reading what I'm saying. Zofia being broken and forced to invade Rigel was never part of Rudolf's plan. It's what came about because Mila sealed the Falchion's power. And Mila's nature and madness is irrelevant. It's unreasonable to assume that Rudolf could convince her to basically commit suicide. Maybe he could, but Rudolf has no reason to believe he can (and Mila isn't universally praised, Celica's mother, one of the only people in the game we know of to have met Mila, expressly never wanted her daughter to come into contact with the goddess). And even if he could, that's not the point. He believes humans should stand on their own two feet so sealing her himself is completely within character for him. And yes, that clashes with the idea of relying on fate and destiny to win the day when he must rely on Alm's brand to save everyone via magic. But that's when he's out of options. As for Berkut, all the evidence suggests he's not that amazing a general. One of the Zofians say he is at the start but the fact is that he keeps failing and nobody at home respects him, and they imply he was failing even before Alm showed up.

Now I have a feeling your just going to quote all that and repeat what you've said already, which will lead to me repeating what I said already without anything actually being achieved. So instead I ask you this. You are Rudolf sitting in your throne in Rigel with Falchion in Duma's possession. What do you do? And then, you are Rudolf, having just committed yourself to war in Zofia and sealed Mila only to find your secret weapon is useless. What do you do?

[Thane]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Your quoting each individual part of my text but I don't think your actually reading what I'm saying.

I do. I just find your arguments to be weak.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Zofia being broken and forced to invade Rigel was never part of Rudolf's plan.

Oh? It wasn't? Also, earlier you said it was.

Quote

Everything makes a lot more sense if you consider that Alm was likely never part of the plan. Rudolf was against the gods even before Alm was born, that's why he immediately sent Alm away. So with Alm out of the loop the plan becomes a lot more simple.

     A. Convince Duma to give him Falchion to seal Mila.

     B. Wage a war, reach Mila's Temple and seal Duma.

     C.After sealing Mila, go home and seal Duma right away under the pretense of returning the sword. He'd likely be killed by the faithful in retaliation but feck it,      he's done his job by that point.

Also, in the Memory Prism, he explicitly states he expects to meet Alm on the field of battle and for people to rise up against him. 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's what came about because Mila sealed the Falchion's power.

That makes absolutely no sense. If his plans were thwarted, why would he keep going with a war if he needs Alm to reach Rigel Castle? Why would he keep sending men to Zofia? Why would he purposefully try to keep Alm out with Berkut? Do you think he just sits on his throne going "shit, I fucked up"? Then that makes him a worthless antagonist.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

And Mila's nature and madness is irrelevant. It's unreasonable to assume that Rudolf could convince her to basically commit suicide. Maybe he could, but Rudolf has no reason to believe he can (and Mila isn't universally praised, Celica's mother, one of the only people in the game we know of to have met Mila, expressly never wanted her daughter to come into contact with the goddess).

It most certainly is not. He went for a much less high priority target rather than exercising his power on the home field. I also never said he would try to tell her to commit suicide, but rather Mila herself should if she knew she was a ticking time bomb, and she truly loved people that much. 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

And even if he could, that's not the point. He believes humans should stand on their own two feet so sealing her himself is completely within character for him.

And here is, again, where the portrayal of Mila as an unquestionable force of good clashes with the game. If Rudolf wants mankind to be strong, why not let them overcome the temptation of Mila's gifts? If he needs to kill her, how will he deal with the droughts and the like? The game never addresses any of this. In doing this, he knew he'd almost break Zofia and cripple any chances they'd have of defeating him and then Duma. Again, this is another thing the game does an incredibly poor job of: it's bullshit how Zofia manages to battle against Rigel in their state, especially given how much worse their armies are.

I like the core idea of Rudolf's plan, don't get me wrong, but it's executed and told in a horrendous manner.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

And yes, that clashes with the idea of relying on fate and destiny to win the day when he must rely on Alm's brand to save everyone via magic. But that's when he's out of options.

So, again, he goes against his own beliefs, his plan is a failure unless destiny saves his bacon, and he still doesn't think to end the war and try to negotiate with Alm and inform him of what's happening? Keep in mind that Alm believed him when he told him he was his father, and went on to honor his last wish, so saying Alm wouldn't believe him if he tried to blow off the war doesn't hold water.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

As for Berkut, all the evidence suggests he's not that amazing a general. 

And according to Luthier, you need to be of a special lineage to cast magic, yet every single villager and every single party member with a Village Fork can become one. Him losing against Alm, for example, is not proof of him being a bad general.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

One of the Zofians say he is at the start but the fact is that he keeps failing and nobody at home respects him, and they imply he was failing even before Alm showed up.

Right, one of the Zofians at the start say that, and then Alm, who's in Rigel, says the Rigelians love Berkut more than him during their confrontation. Who to believe, who to believe...

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

You are Rudolf sitting in your throne in Rigel with Falchion in Duma's possession. What do you do? And then, you are Rudolf, having just committed yourself to war in Zofia and sealed Mila only to find your secret weapon is useless. What do you do?

What would my reply here even mean to you? 

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Thane said:

I do. I just find your arguments to be weak.

Oh? It wasn't? Also, earlier you said it was.

Also, in the Memory Prism, he explicitly states he expects to meet Alm on the field of battle and for people to rise up against him. 

That makes absolutely no sense. If his plans were thwarted, why would he keep going with a war if he needs Alm to reach Rigel Castle? Why would he keep sending men to Zofia? Why would he purposefully try to keep Alm out with Berkut? Do you think he just sits on his throne going "shit, I fucked up"? Then that makes him a worthless antagonist.

It most certainly is not. He went for a much less high priority target rather than exercising his power on the home field. I also never said he would try to tell her to commit suicide, but rather Mila herself should if she knew she was a ticking time bomb, and she truly loved people that much. 

And here is, again, where the portrayal of Mila as an unquestionable force of good clashes with the game. If Rudolf wants mankind to be strong, why not let them overcome the temptation of Mila's gifts? If he needs to kill her, how will he deal with the droughts and the like? The game never addresses any of this. In doing this, he knew he'd almost break Zofia and cripple any chances they'd have of defeating him and then Duma. Again, this is another thing the game does an incredibly poor job of: it's bullshit how Zofia manages to battle against Rigel in their state, especially given how much worse their armies are.

I like the core idea of Rudolf's plan, don't get me wrong, but it's executed and told in a horrendous manner.

So, again, he goes against his own beliefs, his plan is a failure unless destiny saves his bacon, and he still doesn't think to end the war and try to negotiate with Alm and inform him of what's happening? Keep in mind that Alm believed him when he told him he was his father, and went on to honor his last wish, so saying Alm wouldn't believe him if he tried to blow off the war doesn't hold water.

And according to Luthier, you need to be of a special lineage to cast magic, yet every single villager and every single party member with a Village Fork can become one. Him losing against Alm, for example, is not proof of him being a bad general.

Right, one of the Zofians at the start say that, and then Alm, who's in Rigel, says the Rigelians love Berkut more than him during their confrontation. Who to believe, who to believe...

What would my reply here even mean to you? 

Had a big long response talking about the perception of Rudolf's character and intentions but it was tragically lost when my work computer was cut off from the internet. So to briefly sum up the points.

1.I meant it wasn't the plan to depend on a broken Zofia to win the day when I said it wasn't meant to be broken.

2. Believing in destiny is not inherently against his belief dislike of the gods. If you believed in an all powerful monotheistic god then they might be one in the same but when your faced with polytheistic and demonstrably flawed gods then falling back on providence does not result in a contradiction. Alm is still a man and is still paving the way for the betterment of mankind.

3.Telling me what you would do in Rudolf's situation would mean a lot. You say his plan was executed horrendously, then show me a step by step idea for how the same goal could be accomplished easier. I think there's certainly more moral ways than starting a war, especially after loosing access to Falchion, but forging strength through conflict is the Rigellian way. Rudolf is not meant to be a paragon. He has more interesting motivations than a typical villain but he is still an antagonist. That's ultimately why he wasn't recruited.

[Bowbow]

Rudolf was a master tactician and was playing 4D chess the entire time.

 

20 hours ago, Thane said:

The game does a horrible, horrible job of arguing for why Mila should be sealed in the first place

Did you pay attention while playing the game? It's made extremely clear that Mila spoiled the Zofian's rotten and was the reason they turned into a kingdom of laziness and entitlement. To sum up the narrators own words in the intro movie: "they sank into depravity and degeneracy"

[SavageVolug]

13 minutes ago, Bowbow said:

Rudolf was a master tactician and was playing 4D chess the entire time.

 

Did you pay attention while playing the game? It's made extremely clear that Mila spoiled the Zofian's rotten and was the reason they turned into a kingdom of laziness and entitlement. To sum up the narrators own words in the intro movie: "they sank into depravity and degeneracy"

Exactly. BOTH gods are a bad thing for their respective dominions.

[Thane]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

1.I meant it wasn't the plan to depend on a broken Zofia to win the day when I said it wasn't meant to be broken.

So you believe he'd return to seal Duma then, and that the entire war is just an accident that he later doesn't stop, is that it?

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

2. Believing in destiny is not inherently against his belief dislike of the gods. If you believed in an all powerful monotheistic god then they might be one in the same but when your faced with polytheistic and demonstrably flawed gods then falling back on providence does not result in a contradiction. Alm is still a man and is still paving the way for the betterment of mankind.

With vague, unexplained powers of prophecy, which he puts stock in. I really fail to see the difference here.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

3.Telling me what you would do in Rudolf's situation would mean a lot. You say his plan was executed horrendously, then show me a step by step idea for how the same goal could be accomplished easier. I think there's certainly more moral ways than starting a war, especially after loosing access to Falchion, but forging strength through conflict is the Rigellian way. Rudolf is not meant to be a paragon. He has more interesting motivations than a typical villain but he is still an antagonist. That's ultimately why he wasn't recruited.

I get what Rudolf is supposed to be - I even like the conflict and his plan in theory. The big problem is that he comes across as an incompetent buffoon with prophetic vision more than anything else.

I also think it's less of a question of "what would you do if you were Rudolf" and more "how would you have written Rudolf to make sense", would that be acceptable?

13 minutes ago, Bowbow said:

Did you pay attention while playing the game? It's made extremely clear that Mila spoiled the Zofian's rotten and was the reason they turned into a kingdom of laziness and entitlement. To sum up the narrators own words in the intro movie: "they sank into depravity and degeneracy"

Why yes, imagine that, I did pay attention. However, what I also did was not just take the game's writing at face value and instead analyze it as I always do, and if you stop to think for a minute or two, you'll notice the clear imbalance in how Duma and Mila are portrayed.

Duma is portrayed as a mindless husk in search for power. His disciples are all comically evil, cartoon-like villains who want the world to end.

Mila, on the other hand, is never seen directly doing anything bad. Hell, in fact it's rather the opposite, she uses the last of her power to resurrect Celica in the end. Another big difference is also that she's worshipped by a majority of the cast which is unambiguously good, as opposed to the Duma Faithful. 

"But she spoiled the Zofians!" - Yes, I'm well aware, but again, the game does a poor job of actually PORTRAYING this. The Zofians we meet are good, hard-working people who don't show any signs of having been spoiled. Lima was a corrupt asshole, but he's dead before the main plot even begins, so we never get to see the full extent of the depravity. In the same vein, the game never shows Mila as being crazy, making me wonder why her being sealed first was so damn important, given how her sudden banishment left Zofia on the brink of ruin. 

This game was supposed to be about finding a middle ground between two well-meaning but flawed ideals, two pieces of a whole and all that. Yet in spite of that, Mila is constantly portrayed as good, and Duma as evil. This cheapens the main theme of the story.

 

[Armagon]

15 minutes ago, Thane said:

Duma is portrayed as a mindless husk in search for power. His disciples are all comically evil, cartoon-like villains who want the world to end.

 

Regarding Duma's disciples, i think that's more of a case of Jedah being High Priest. Because Halceyon is also a disciple of Duma, yet he's completely normal-looking and actually helps Celica.

I would say the same for Tatiana, but given how she mentions Mila (as The Mother), she's likely from a group of Mila-worshipping Rigelians.

[Bowbow]

51 minutes ago, Thane said:

Duma is portrayed as a mindless husk in search for power

Ignoring the whole "destined to go crazy like all dragons do" thing, Duma never really did anything wrong. He wants humanity to assert their own responsibility and be strong on their own without being reliant on gods. Also, he admits in hindsight that he and Mila taking the opposite extremes of the whole "Gentle touch vs Firm Hand" thing wasn't a good idea.

56 minutes ago, Thane said:

His disciples are all comically evil, cartoon-like villains who want the world to end.

That happened when Jedah banished Halycon and took control of the Duma Faithful, prior to that it was a lot less fanatical. Also, they're not the Grimleal and want Duma to destroy the world, they just want him to reign supreme over it.

1 hour ago, Thane said:

Another big difference is also that she's worshipped by a majority of the cast which is unambiguously good

Most of the playable cast is Zofian. The only people from Rigel are Saber, Tatiana and Sonya. I guess you can maybe argue Conrad as well since he was raised in Rigel.

1 hour ago, Thane said:

the game does a poor job of actually PORTRAYING this

There are plenty of villagers you interact with that are complaining about the supposed famine/drought and how everything is going badly due to Mila not doing everything for them. When in actuality it's all blown out of proportion because by them since Zofia doesn't look like a barren waste land and you can still get various foods and water across Zofia. Only difference is that Mila isn't magically doing all the work for them. Zofians just aren't used to hardship and toil, so even a minor problem will be magnified ten fold. There's also one villager in Ram that outright doesn't like Mila and another that admits this all happening because they're too dependent on Mila. This is taken to the extreme when Fernand's entire family, kids included, is put to the sword despite being treated well.

1 hour ago, Thane said:

making me wonder why her being sealed first was so damn important, given how her sudden banishment left Zofia on the brink of ruin. 

Because as a few others have explained, going for Duma first would've led to his goal failing. He WANTS Zofia to hate him, so gets to kill two birds with one stone when he seals their god and makes their comfy lives a bit less comfy. Actually, he killed four birds with one stone since Lima being a dick and telling them to piss off when Rigel had a food problem of it's own gave him the perfect excuse to invade Zofia.

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

So you believe he'd return to seal Duma then, and that the entire war is just an accident that he later doesn't stop, is that it?

With vague, unexplained powers of prophecy, which he puts stock in. I really fail to see the difference here.

I get what Rudolf is supposed to be - I even like the conflict and his plan in theory. The big problem is that he comes across as an incompetent buffoon with prophetic vision more than anything else.

I also think it's less of a question of "what would you do if you were Rudolf" and more "how would you have written Rudolf to make sense", would that be acceptable?
 

Well basically yes. Okay not quite an accident, he did need to invade Sofia to get to Mila's Temple and seal her but then when that went south the only thing he had to rely on was that Alm (whom he knows is some kind of chosen one due to the brand) would be able to unseal the sword and defeat Doma. The armies were kept in place to make Alm stronger and also to keep the Doma sect from focusing on him. I admit it's mostly conjecture but it's what I can gather based on the fact that they added the plot point of Mila sealing Falchion. Because it's a pretty major plot hole in the original that Rudolf didn't just go and seal Duma himself given that he has the sword and physical ability.

Given the way the set up is, with Alm needing to fight Rudolf and Rudolf not sealing Duma himself for some reason, I'm not sure there's many ways they could have handled it better than how they did. Rudolf has to be nerfed in someway to stop him basically ending the game before it starts and Alm needs some way of getting around that nerf (and also fight Rudolf). The only other possible solution I can think of off the top of my head would be to make Rudolf actually a follower of Duma (which would make him much less interesting).

Just watched the original version and I note that Mycen says Rudolf started the war to find heroes in Valenetia, not necessarily Alm and not necessarily from Zofia. Which I guess takes the prophetic element out but still leaves the hole of Rudolf not being hero enough to seal Duma himself despite already being 1 for 1 in god killing. I'm also pretty sure Alm had the mark in the original too since Zeke's reason for joining remained the same. So...  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Alexmender]

Ok first we need to establish some facts before trying to understand Rudolf's logic.

At some point during his reign as Rigel emperor he started to notice Duma's degeneration (most likely due to the damage he was causing to the land and how he gave the Duma faithful those terrifying powers to summon terrors), when he was sane Duma's idea was to make humans strong by giving them hardship but not to the point of making their lives hell so this shows how he was degrading into a mindless beast just like every dragon who refused to become a manakete or leave to the next plane.

Shortly after, Lima IV was made King of Zofia and it's pretty obvious word of that would reach Rigel. After all they are neighboring kingdoms, to understand why Rudolf wanted to get rid of Mila too just look at Conrad story. His mother was a rigelian noble who was forced to marry King Lima just to secure some resources for her country, this would not give a good impresion about Lima in Rudolf's eyes. The zofians were too spoilt and self-entitled due to Mila doing everything for them which was going to bite them in the ass later on.

Now let's assume there's this legend about heroes who are capable of freeing Valentia from the gods grasp (wheter this is good or bad it's up to who reads the story) and the proof of someone being like a legendary hero is that they'll have a brand in their hand. At first Rudolf wouldn't believe this sort of thing because he wanted men to move on using their own strength, but when Alm was born with the brand of legends he started to have his doubts. If the legends were true then it would be his son who would free Valentia from the gods, and while this could also be a fairy tale it was obvious the Duma faithful would try to take him down because he was threat to their god (it also it helps that Celica's mother didn't want her daughter close to Mila at any cost, which makes sense because she would be a threat to her due to being a branded). In any case he decided to leave his son to his best friend Mycen in order to protect him and make him a hero in case it would be needed.

Later on, Duma's influence started to affect the harvests in Rigel, and left with no other choice Rudolf decided to ask Lima for some resources to help his people, but was rejected just because Lima was an ass. And ask yourself this, Mila's influence made the Zofian lands full of resources so their people wouldn't need to do anything, they had more than they needed so sharing just a bit would cause no harm. Also remember how Rigel gave Zofia the Royal Sword in the past as a gift (and this is big because that's a sword for royalty), which showed that Rigel would not mind helping Zofia if need would arise even if the kingdoms had tensions due to them being almost the opposite. This gave Rudolf the perfect excuse to invade Zofia and take down Mila first, after all he needed the Falchion to take the two gods down and to get it he needed Duma's approval which was quite easy to get because he was a husk whose only purpose was to grant power and cause damage to the land believing it was hardship. 

When Rudolf invaded Mila's temple the first thing she noticed was that Duma betrayed her due to giving Falchion away to seal her, during their fight I'm sure Mila noticed Rudolf's true intentions and decided to seal Falchion alongside herself in order to protect her brother from Rudolf. This left Rudolf with nothing to take Duma down, while also having a war to take care of (although it wasn't like it was a huge deal with Zofia being a kingdom of useless whiners who need their goddess to do everything for them). With no way to finish Duma Rudolf's only choice was to hope the legend was true and that his son would free Valentia from the gods.

Rudolf knew that trying to take the gods down would make him a villain in everyone's eyes, taking Duma first would cause a civil war with the Duma faithful which he could not afford to wage with the state of things in Rigel, taking Mila out would ensure that one day his son would take arms to take him down (he asked Mycen to train Alm specifically to do this) and then fulfill the legend. And it's right here where Rudolf's plan big flaw shows, what if Alm never took arms (if the whole Slayde incident didn't happen I'm sure he would've stayed in Ram with Celica not giving a shit about the world unless she decided to go back as the heir to the throne which is pretty unlikely). Without the Falchion no one other than the heroes could take Duma down, and Rudolf would've been a sitting duck while the Duma faithful destroyed Valentia because there was no one to stop them.

If I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but I think this gives enough proof to show Rudolf's logic while making his moves.

[maybe]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Just watched the original version and I note that Mycen says Rudolf started the war to find heroes in Valenetia, not necessarily Alm and not necessarily from Zofia. Which I guess takes the prophetic element out but still leaves the hole of Rudolf not being hero enough to seal Duma himself despite already being 1 for 1 in god killing. I'm also pretty sure Alm had the mark in the original too since Zeke's reason for joining remained the same. So...  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

in the original, alm did have the mark, but I think the implication there was more that it was just an ordinary birthmark that rudolf knew alm had, so he told zeke about the mark so he could identify him as "the boy who will save valentia" as rudolf wanted him to be, rather than the mark itself being a sign of that

both explanations are pretty bad but I think the remake did it a little better since it makes rudolf's plan more defined rather than "nah it'll work out someone will kill me sooner or later"

[B.Leu]

Huh, so at the base, it's really more like 'finding heroes' than 'finding the hero', huh ? Cool.
 

8 hours ago, Thane said:

This game was supposed to be about finding a middle ground between two well-meaning but flawed ideals, two pieces of a whole and all that. Yet in spite of that, Mila is constantly portrayed as good, and Duma as evil. This cheapens the main theme of the story.

I kinda agree with what you're saying here actually.
And, you know, it's why some people, me with it, have a problem with having Mila planning the godkilling part instead of Duma, because it kind of destroy the whole thing too. It was one of the kickass things.
But when you see that Awakening decided to praise Mila and forget Duma... you see where this is going.

It reminds me of something, when characters talk about Lima, more specifically Celica, he is shitted upon constantly, but Mila somehow get a free pass despite her being responsible of the whole thing, fancy that. Talk about double standard, eh ? :p

Edited June 1, 2017 by B.Leu

[kcirrot]

Late to the party, but here's my 2 silver marks:

Thane's first question: I don't question his motivation for a second, but his methods are ridiculous.

I don't agree that taking out Duma was the best idea though.  If Rudolf was attempting to keep the Duma Faithful and Duma himself from recognizing his goal, what better way than to play the role Duma set for him.  

While it is true that Mila was currently not a threat, it is absolutely inevitable that she would be.  It is an unerring truth in FE that dragons eventually go chaotic evil, no matter where they start.  So taking Mila out before she loses her mind is almost a kindness. 

More shaky was the effect it would have on Alm.  It seems to me it would have been A LOT better to spill the beans to Alm early; have the princeling and dad take on the Duma Faithful together.  Given the times you could easily have just made Celica marry Alm as that would have been a perfectly sensible political alliance anyway.  But it probably wasn't necessary given that Mycen shipped them pretty well when they were kids.

Re: the second question.  He died so Alm could take over the continent unburdened by his dad's baggage.  It's not clear that the vast majority of Valerians even know that Alm is the heir to the Rigelian throne. They just think he's the scrappy kid who took on the gods and an emperor and won.

Edited June 1, 2017 by kcirrot

[Jotari]

Oh yeah, re: Rudolf having armies in Sofia. The Sofia Castle Siege DLC reveals that he was invited in by Desaix who actually had the support of both the commoners and the nobility despite how evil he is. So Rudolf actually going in and dissolving the conflict could be seen as quite responsible from one perspective. I appreciate that they made the rebellion less righteous with that short story.

[Light Strategist]

On 05/26/17 at 9:17 AM, Thane said:

As for the sword, how did Rudolf even know Alm would be able to use it after Mila sealed it away inside of herself?

My guess is that sealing Mila as Rudolf did helped bring her to her senses. As has been said, she seemed to not care about what was transpiring outside of her temple and seemed to be content with the idea that only providing her blessing was enough.

On 05/26/17 at 10:29 AM, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

If Mila's blessing could make crops grow, surely it has something to do with water as well. If her blessing also supplies ground water and such, there wouldn't be much danger of drought.

Also, iirc they still had enough water for moats and stuff in some places. Makes you really wonder if there was a drought.

I remember stopping in one of the villages in northern Zofia where Alm notes that the well has water in it, but not as much as you'd hope. It's not impossible that Mila's blessing would cause water to spring up from deep underground. In fact, in Awakening, isn't the Mila Tree surrounded by a massive spring of such? Calling forth water seems pretty likely to me.