Hawkeye is WAAAAY better than you thought

[Ice Dragon]

21 minutes ago, JSND said:

Almost all of them i guess lol

 

Julia, Cecilia, Nino, Spring Camilla, Titania

 

It is at this point where i realized thats the full list and even then Titania is a stretch, god damnit why is there so few greens so uhhhhh

Cherche and Frederick

Spring Camilla, Cecilia, and Nino are easily at the top for greens. Spring Camilla and Cecilia can take advantage of their respective movement-type-specific buffs to boost Gronnblade's damage, and Nino has the Spd to take advantage of a Desperation build to land two hits before a counterattack where one hit might fail to kill.

Minerva has access to the combination of Hauteclere, Bonfire, and Quickened Pulse to be extremely dangerous against melee-ranged opponents. Using Fury instead of Life and Death gives her 35 Def (17 damage on Bonfire) while maintaining 53 Atk and 42 Spd with Hone Fliers.

Cherche and Frederick have the best Brave Axe+ builds with 38 and 35 neutral Atk, respectively, on top of their movement-type-specific buffs. Cherche has the advantage of having the flying movement type to ignore terrain, and Frederick has the advantage of cavalry's increased movement range.

Titania and Fae are better than Hector against the more dominant blue mages, having 30 Res that goes up to 36 with their respective +6/6 buff. Even a physical blue unit needs at least 49 Atk (unbuffed Cordelia [+Atk] (Brave Lance+, Death Blow 3) has 49 Atk) to deal 1 damage against a Titania or Fae with a -Def nature while under Fortify. They aren't going to hold up as well against green units, but Titania can at least avoid being double attacked with her 34 Spd, and Fae has a more-than-sufficient 46 HP pool.

Sheena performs better than Hector on an armor-based team due to her incredible 45/36/33 mixed bulk, not to mention the highest Res stat among all obtainable green units in the game. Bonfire covers for her lower Atk stat and lets her kill Bride Cordelia [+Atk] (Firesweep Bow+, Death Blow 3) on the following player phase while only taking 8×2 damage (two stacks of Ward Armor and one Spur Def/Res 2 or Drive Def 2 from the dancer), as long as Cordelia isn't packing Guard.

Julia... does things.

[Refa]

Julia beats Reinhardt, best unit ever.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Refa said:

Julia beats Reinhardt, best unit ever.

+0 Julia [=] (Naga, Resistance +3) takes 8×2 damage from +0 Reinhardt [+Atk] (Dire Thunder, Death Blow 3) +6/6/0/0. Quickened Pulse Moonbow hits for 11 additional damage (total 27). Neutral Julia fails to double attack this Reinhardt without +3 Spd. Neutral Julia fails to one-hit kill without +4 Atk.

+0 Julia [=] (Naga, Distant Def 3) takes 5×2 damage (1×2 damage with Fortify Res 3). Moonbow hits for 12 (22) damage (13 (15) with Fortify Res 3)

+0 Fae [=] (Triangle Adept 3) takes 4×2 damage (0×2 damage with Fortify Dragons). Moonbow hits for 9 (17) damage (10−2 (8) with Fortify Dragons).

+0 Titania [=] (Emerald Axe+) takes the same 4×2 damage (0×2 with Fortify Cavalry or Ward Cavalry). Moonbow hits for 9 (17) damage (10 (10) with Ward Cavalry, 10−2 (8) with Fortify Cavalry).

+0 Sheena [=] +0/0/8/8 takes 4×2 damage. Moonbow hits for 12 (20) damage.

 

None of these characters typically use +Res or -Res unless the player doesn't have a choice.

EDIT: I forgot Naga gave +2 Res on enemy phase.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Junkhead]

6 hours ago, shadowofchaos said:

Thank you.

Because of Tempest Trials Hector's ridiculous HP she'd always die if I didn't have the special charged up.

Good to know that she can kill him on Arena if the need arises.

Of course, lol. Arena Hector is free as hell after the Tempest Trials. He was literally the whole reason why I even put Sanaki on a L&D+Desperation+Threaten Spd setup.

[Refa]

46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

+0 Julia [=] (Resistance +3) takes 10×2 damage from +0 Reinhardt [+Atk] (Dire Thunder, Death Blow 3) +6/6/0/0. Quickened Pulse Moonbow hits for 10 additional damage (total 30). Neutral Julia fails to double attack this Reinhardt without +3 Spd. Neutral Julia fails to one-hit kill without +4 Atk.

+0 Julia [=] (Distant Def 3) takes 7×2 damage (3×2 damage with Fortify Res 3). Moonbow hits for 11 (25) damage (12 (18) with Fortify Res 3)

+0 Fae [=] (Triangle Adept 3) takes 4×2 damage (0×2 damage with Fortify Dragons). Moonbow hits for 9 (17) damage (10−2 (8) with Fortify Dragons).

+0 Titania [=] (Emerald Axe+) takes the same 4×2 damage (0×2 with Fortify Cavalry or Ward Cavalry). Moonbow hits for 9 (17) damage (10 (10) with Ward Cavalry, 10−2 (8) with Fortify Cavalry).

+0 Sheena [=] +0/0/8/8 takes 4×2 damage. Moonbow hits for 12 (20) damage.

None of these characters typically use +Res or -Res unless the player doesn't have a choice.

Yeah, all of those guys beat Reinhardt too.  Best units ever.  I don't see why Julia doesn't have Fury 3 or Triangle Adept 3, though (both of which are far better than Resistance +3 or Distant Def 3)!  

[Junkhead]

Did I actually ever imply that.

 

[Ice Dragon]

38 minutes ago, Refa said:

Yeah, all of those guys beat Reinhardt too.  Best units ever.  I don't see why Julia doesn't have Fury 3 or Triangle Adept 3, though (both of which are far better than Resistance +3 or Distant Def 3)!  

Fury 3 performs worse against Reinhardt. She takes the same amount of direct damage as with Resistance +3, but she takes an additional 6 damage afterwards, which leaves her with 5 HP remaining. I don't consider that a win.

[Astellius]

6 hours ago, Hilda said:

eh I have Hector and never use him. he is trash in my eyes because of his poor movement and his low res. He gets trashed by my Cecilia and Xander in every arena encounter (havent lost to any Hector so far). By the Time Hector reaches the battle squad, his Teammates are allready on the floor, leaving him last lol.

Same here. Apart from the 10th stratum armor quests, I don't really use him. If I need an axe wielder, I turn to Cherche, she's awesome. Hector just slows everything down.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With respect to the topic of the thread, I sacrificed my 5* Hawkeye to give Cherche Death Blow 3, she's just been way better. Zero regrets. Hawkeye is okay, he's middling at best, and certainly not "WAAAAY better" than I thought. He's a solid unit, but he's the type of unit you use when you don't have anyone better for the role. He's infantry, so he can't be a fill-in green for Horse/Flyer teams. And then there are better infantry greens than him. And better green tanks than him. He can't nuke an opponent. So that leaves him with a role as a filler unit. He's someone you run when you don't have better options.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Astellius

[Refa]

1 hour ago, Soul~! said:

Did I actually ever imply that.

I don't know, I'm not mocking you.  I just hate dealing with Reinhardt.

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Fury 3 performs worse against Reinhardt. She takes the same amount of direct damage as with Resistance +3, but she takes an additional 6 damage afterwards, which leaves her with 5 HP remaining. I don't consider that a win.

It lets her double and kill him (also it helps her do better against other units).  It's worse defensively for sure, if she needed that 6HP for something else I guess.

[Junkhead]

19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Fury 3 performs worse against Reinhardt. She takes the same amount of direct damage as with Resistance +3, but she takes an additional 6 damage afterwards, which leaves her with 5 HP remaining. I don't consider that a win.

Don't people tend to find the 6 HP drain rather neglegible next to the +3 across the board? I see everyone and their mother use that skill as an easy buff.

12 minutes ago, Refa said:

I don't know, I'm not mocking you.  I just hate dealing with Reinhardt.

oh okay lol

Reason I mentioned Reinhardt a couple of times is because I hear people they have a hard time dealing with him. Literally never had that issue with Hawkeye.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Don't people tend to find the 6 HP drain rather neglegible next to the +3 across the board? I see everyone and their mother use that skill as an easy buff.

It matters when you're surviving a single round of combat against an opponent you have weapon triangle advantage against with one of the highest Res stats in the game with only 5 HP remaining.

[Tenzen12]

All armors need pivot or swap, so no unless you don't give Hector even most basic skills, he has no problem get where he is needed, especially as he is enemy phase unit. His low res is ok because he has ton of HP and physical units practically doesn't hurt him at all. I feel like people who complain about Hector simply never bothered learn how to use him properly....

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Tenzen12 said:

All armors need pivot or swap, so no unless you don't give Hector even most basic skills, he has no problem get where he is needed, especially as he is enemy phase unit. His low res is ok because he has ton of HP and physical units practically doesn't hurt him at all. I feel like people who complain about Hector simply never bothered learn how to use him properly....

His movement is a huge problem because it means he needs another unit around him at all times just to get anywhere. And even with a crutch unit, Pivot cannot get him to go where needs to go sometimes because pivot does not allow him to move diagonally. His stellar enemy phase performance is hampered by his low movement because he cannot get to where he needs to go.

[Tenzen12]

Pivot among other means he can have cavalry movement and ignore forests on top of that. That is actually very exploitable gimmick. 

Basically you don't get how team work works. Getting Hector across map in turn or so is most trivial task you can get. It's hardly any unit fault you are unable do even that much.

[shadowofchaos]

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

EDIT: I forgot Naga gave +2 Res on enemy phase.

It's 6x2 damage without Res+3 because of Naga, yes?

Also waiiit.

Rein has 18 spd on Neutral with Dime Thunder doesn't he?

Julia has 26 spd Neutral.

Why wouldn't she double him?

I'm just glad I have a +Spd one.

I love my weirdo Julia setup.

I need to get some spur spd for 40 spd Julia.

Edited June 27, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

7 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

It's 6 damage without Res+3 because of Naga, yes?

Also waiiit.

Rein has 18 spd on Neutral doesn't he?

Julia has 26 spd Neutral.

Why wouldn't she double him?

That was the Satan Emblem Reinhardt with the +6 Spd from Hone Demons.

I just have Death Blow 3 and Threaten Res 3 on my +Atk Julia. Stack with Spur Atk for Dragon Fang that adds over 30 damage. It's dumb.

11 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Pivot among other means he can have cavalry movement and ignore forests on top of that. That is actually very exploitable gimmick. 

Basically you don't get how team work works. Getting Hector across map in turn or so is most trivial task you can get. It's hardly any unit fault you are unable do even that much.

He needs additional help from his team just to move him across, when a different unit that counters similar things could just reach that square with no/less help, allowing the rest of the team to do something else, even if it's just moving in ways to manipulate the AI or stack buffs. Teamwork as a requirement is counted against a unit, just like how Blade mages' reliance on buffs is counted as a Con.

Edited June 27, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[shadowofchaos]

1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

That was the Satan Emblem Reinhardt with the +6 Spd from Hone Demons.

Hone Cavalry?

Then he should do 12 x 2 damage then right?

[Tenzen12]

Sorry but I don't remember anyone complain how Nino or Tharja suck. Sure it's minor inconvenience once per blue moon, but usually you don't spread your units across whole map so you just use units that is on hand anyway.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Sorry but I don't remember anyone complain how Nino or Tharja suck. Sure it's minor inconvenience once per blue moon, but usually you don't spread your units across whole map so you just use units that is on hand anyway.

People who usually do tier list does complaint about how they need support to work so they shouldn't be S+ Tier or something

Complaining about Hector requiring support to activate his Enemy Phase advantage is the exact same thing as complaining Nino requires support to become a monster. In this case instead of "Nino is a wet paper who need support to be good" its "Hector is a slog to use with 1 Mov and is only good at enemy phase"

A way better example is honestly Ursula since unlike Nino/Tharja, Ursula did not have retarded stats

 

Unless your refering to Arena Defense Hector, in which case i'd stand by my view that Hector is easilly the worst/second worst unit in the game

Edited June 27, 2017 by JSND

[Junkhead]

23 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Basically you don't get how team work works. Getting Hector across map in turn or so is most trivial task you can get. It's hardly any unit fault you are unable do even that much.

woah holy shit

19 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

It's 6x2 damage without Res+3 because of Naga, yes?

Also waiiit.

Rein has 18 spd on Neutral with Dime Thunder doesn't he?

Julia has 26 spd Neutral.

Why wouldn't she double him?

I'm just glad I have a +Spd one.

I love my weirdo Julia setup.

I need to get some spur spd for 40 spd Julia.

How in the fuck does Yuria get anything over 35 Spd, let alone 40.

12 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

He needs additional help from his team just to move him across, when a different unit that counters similar things could just reach that square with no/less help, allowing the rest of the team to do something else, even if it's just moving in ways to manipulate the AI or stack buffs. Teamwork as a requirement is counted against a unit, just like how Blade mages' reliance on buffs is counted as a Con.

If you think about it, is that much going against him? Sure, he needs someone else for the job. But what does that enable, and how does it pay off? Because really fucking strong against most units while virtually having 1-2 doubling action is not exactly something I'd take lightly. And while I see a lot of people take heavy consideration and value into glass canons and Player Phase, they're completely disregarding the enemy mechanic to sometimes have you force an approach.

Then I remember, Arena characters aren't actually that smart so screw anything I said.

8 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Sure it's minor inconvenience once per blue moon, but usually you don't spread your units across whole map so you just use units that is on hand anyway.

You have a point, lol.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Soul~!

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

13 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Hone Cavalry?

Then he should do 12 x 2 damage then right?

No, I think Ice Dragon's math was right there. 44 + 6 (DB3) + 6 (Hone) = 56 Atk for Reinhardt, and after WTD it becomes 56*0.8 = 44.8 rounded to 45 Atk. 45 - (35 + 2) = 8.

10 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Sorry but I don't remember anyone complain how Nino or Tharja suck. Sure it's minor inconvenience once per blue moon, but usually you don't spread your units across whole map so you just use units that is on hand anyway.

 

2 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

If you think about it, is that much going against him? Sure, he needs someone else for the job. But what does that enable, and how does it pay off? Because really fucking strong against most units while virtually having 1-2 doubling action is not exactly something I'd take lightly. And while I see a lot of people take heavy consideration and value into glass canons and Player Phase, they're completely disregarding the enemy mechanic to sometimes have you force an approach.

Then I remember, Arena characters aren't actually that smart so screw anything I said.

People just think he's overrated at the moment since he's S+ on the Wiki Tier List, but he's in a weird spot. He's murdered by the common Arena threats (mages), and is pretty useless on Arena Defense since only Wings of Mercy Hector is ever relevant before the fight is pretty much over, but WoM Hector doesn't have the dumbass Vantage Bonfire gig. However, if you don't actually bring said common Arena threats or a dedicated Hector counter, you're pretty much boned by Vantage Hector. So there's this weird thing where you simultaneously do and don't have to prepare for him.

Edited June 27, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Junkhead]

Are people so confident in Hector they forget to do that in the first place? His base skills work, but he can definitely take it up a whole level. I think I've only seen a badass Hector once or twice...in a sea of them. I see them pretty much every Arena match, and they're just thrown in there with rather basic sets. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use that B-slot well enough, and let alone Vantage and the whatnot. I somewhat see a similiar trend with Takumeme and Ryoma, but at least they tend to put Ryoma on Vantage.

Dude, just mix in Vantage with Pivot and Bonfire or whatever.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

6 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Are people so confident in Hector they forget to do that in the first place? His base skills work, but he can definitely take it up a whole level. I think I've only seen a badass Hector once or twice...in a sea of them. I see them pretty much every Arena match, and they're just thrown in there with rather basic sets. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use that B-slot well enough, and let alone Vantage and the whatnot. I somewhat see a similiar trend with Takumeme and Ryoma, but at least they tend to put Ryoma on Vantage.

Dude, just mix in Vantage with Pivot and Bonfire or whatever.

Like 80% of Hector i met in Arena right now have Vantage Bonfire set

The only outlier is the Special slot. Some people still run Pavise, some run Ignis, but Bonfire is still the most common overall. Hector actually jumped a lot in threat level if they have Bonfire

 

But putting my piece here, the counter to Hector is like 80% of Reds in the game. Unless you somehow make a squad that did not use one of those 80%(or use 4* Olivia vanilla as your sole red) then chances are, you almost always have a Hector counter just through natural team building.

Edited June 27, 2017 by JSND

[Arcanite]

1 minute ago, JSND said:

Like 80% of Hector i met in Arena right now have Vantage Bonfire set

Don't forget the ever so stupid Wings of Mercy set!

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

Don't forget the ever so stupid Wings of Mercy set!

WoM is REALLY rare

 

Like stupidly rare. In 30 or so battle i think i saw like 6 WoM Hector atm