Hawkeye is WAAAAY better than you thought

[dragonlordsd]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Olwen needing investment does not discount how powerful she is. +Atk, Blade, L&D, Lbreaker, and vanilla Eirika buff allows her to kill 125 neutral vanilla units. That is enough to carry a team. With a Hone Cavalry teammate, Olwen can kill 133.

+Atk Hector with Moonbow on enemy phase with vanilla Eirika buff kills 108.

+Atk Olwen with Dire Thunder, L&D, Lbreaker, and no buffs can achieve 106 kills.

Factoring in their movement range, Olwen is going to do a lot more work than Hector.

GHB battles are predictable, so Hector's low movement can be mitigated.

Your calculations are right, but, here's the problem. In the arena, you're much, much more likely to be seeing the handful of units that Olwen can't kill than the 133 units she can.

(cough) Julia (cough)

This really does warp the viability of certain unit types. Life and Death I believe also opens her up to a few hard counters that she doesn't have to worry about otherwise...

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

14 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Your calculations are right, but, here's the problem. In the arena, you're much, much more likely to be seeing the handful of units that Olwen can't kill than the 133 units she can.

(cough) Julia (cough)

This really does warp the viability of certain unit types. Life and Death I believe also opens her up to a few hard counters that she doesn't have to worry about otherwise...

4B LnD Olwen survives, and ORKO +5 Fury Neutral Julia in combat

She's basically set up fodder under this condition

Edited June 27, 2017 by JSND

[XRay]

1 hour ago, komasa said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. How much support are you imagining Hector to needing? 

At bare minimum you can just get away with one person who he can Pivot over. Repositioning skills are also great with him, but those kind of skills are also useful for anyone on the team too.

Also why are we comparing Hector with the likes of Olwen, -bladetomes and archers? He's an EP unit that serves a different purpose to those glass cannons. With Hector (at least imho) it's never about positioning him into someone's face, or across an entire map. He's there to get in range and ruin formations.

I'm not saying Hector is the most amazing thing since sliced bread, but he's hardly trash tier. 

 

I did not say he is trash tier. The problem with Hector is that other EP units have better movement range than he does at the cost of being slightly less effective combat wise. Having a little less combat potential while having twice or triple the movement of Hector is a very good trade off.

Frederick [+Atk, Silver, Moonbow, Counter, QR] has 89 wins, 24 losses, and triple the movement.

Bartre(!) [+Atk, Silver, Moonbow, Counter, QR] has 94 wins, 19 losses, and double the movement.

Xander [+Atk, Siegfried, Moonbow, Fury, QR] nearly rivals Hector with 97 wins, 11 losses, and triple the movement.

Nowi [+Atk, Lightning Breath, Moonbow, Fury, QR] is better than Hector with 109 wins, 7 losses, and double the movement.

 

42 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Your calculations are right, but, here's the problem. In the arena, you're much, much more likely to be seeing the handful of units that Olwen can't kill than the 133 units she can.

(cough) Julia (cough)

This really does warp the viability of certain unit types. Life and Death I believe also opens her up to a few hard counters that she doesn't have to worry about otherwise...

Those she cannot kill is easily covered by a red or green ally, and Hector will have trouble covering those due to lower movement. Out of all the green units Olwen cannot handle, Hector is the only one that Olwen's green ally will have trouble tackling.

You can run Swift Sparrow if you are worried about a drop in offense. She then has 131 wins, 2 losses. That is still carrying the team. Any unit that can achieve 120 kills with skill inheritance and an Eirika buff or Hone Cavalry/Flier can practically carry the team.

[dragonlordsd]

2 hours ago, JSND said:

4B LnD Olwen survives, and ORKO +5 Fury Neutral Julia in combat

She's basically set up fodder under this condition

Umm.... No she doesn't. Calculations?

Yeah, doing the math, unless the battle sims calculations are off, there's no way Olwen can one shot fury 3 Julia, or survive the counter, even with cavalry bonuses.

Neutral Julia counters for 37, which is enough to take out a +hp or + res Olwen. Unless you're running ward cavalry, but that's a whole second set of maths that I don't have time for.

edit: ok, I do have time for the maths. If you run ward cavalry instead, the most a fully buffed Olwen can possibly hit for is 18. That's with life and death, +att nature, fully buffed, with attack deal, and with blade tome. Neutral Julia has 38 hp. So yes, it is completely impossible for Olwen to ORKO Julia under any circumstances. (Unless she's like +5 or whatever, but I've thrown you enough bones for this argument.)

Edited June 27, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

20 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Umm.... No she doesn't. Calculations?

Yeah, doing the math, unless the battle sims calculations are off, there's no way Olwen can one shot fury 3 Julia, or survive the counter, even with cavalry bonuses.

Neutral Julia counters for 37, which is enough to take out a +hp or + res Olwen. Unless you're running ward cavalry, but that's a whole second set of maths that I don't have time for.

edit: ok, I do have time for the maths. If you run ward cavalry instead, the most a fully buffed Olwen can possibly hit for is 18. That's with life and death, +att nature, fully buffed, with blade tome. Neutral Julia has 38 hp. So yes, it is completely impossible for Olwen to ORKO Julia under any circumstances. (Unless she's like +5 or whatever, but I've thrown you enough bones for this argument.)

 

4B Life and Death Olwen vs +5 Fury 3 Julia

• Olwen adds total bonuses to attack, increasing attack by 24 [Blárblade+].
• Julia gains 2 defense by getting attacked [Naga].
• Julia gains 2 resistance by getting attacked [Naga].
• Olwen attacks. Triangle disadvantage reduces attack by 20%. 21 damage dealt.
  Julia HP: 40 → 19
• Julia counter-attacks. Triangle advantage boosts attack by 20%. 33 damage dealt.
  Olwen HP: 34 → 1
• Olwen makes a follow-up attack. Triangle disadvantage reduces attack by 20%. 21 damage dealt.
  Julia HP: 19 → 0

 

Yes this is a lopsided 4B Horse vs normal unit match up, but i already gave Julia a realistic +5 merge advantage over Olwen so it evens out to simulate Arena situation. On equal footing(as in, both Olwen and Julia have close merge level), Julia have no chance to beat 4B Olwen even as +ATK

Edited June 28, 2017 by JSND

[dragonlordsd]

15 hours ago, JSND said:

 

4B Life and Death Olwen vs +5 Fury 3 Julia

• Olwen adds total bonuses to attack, increasing attack by 24 [Blárblade+].
• Julia gains 2 defense by getting attacked [Naga].
• Julia gains 2 resistance by getting attacked [Naga].
• Olwen attacks. Triangle disadvantage reduces attack by 20%. 21 damage dealt.
  Julia HP: 40 → 19
• Julia counter-attacks. Triangle advantage boosts attack by 20%. 33 damage dealt.
  Olwen HP: 34 → 1
• Olwen makes a follow-up attack. Triangle disadvantage reduces attack by 20%. 21 damage dealt.
  Julia HP: 19 → 0

 

Yes this is a lopsided 4B Horse vs normal unit match up, but i already gave Julia a realistic +5 merge advantage over Olwen so it evens out to simulate Arena situation. On equal footing(as in, both Olwen and Julia have close merge level), Julia have no chance to beat 4B Olwen even as +ATK

Look, I'm not trying to say Olwen is a bad unit. She is a great unit. I was just trying to make a point about cost/value ratio for more players.

 

That said, I do believe you are incorrect in your math, although I may have made a mistake.

+5 Julia has 54 attack, +20% from weapon triangle advantage gives her +10.8, which I believe rounds up to be 65.

Olwen has 25 res thanks to life and death, and takes 40 damage, if all offense buffs. (side note, at +5, her res is still only 27, within margin of error)

If only one ward cavalry, she gets +4, bringing her up to 29. Still takes 36 damage, which is fatal. Two ward cavalry brings her up to 33, which is enough to survive.

However, if she is receiving two ward cavalry buffs, that means she can only be receiving at most one offense buff (+4att/spd), which, the battle sim calculates as meaning she will do a total of 18 damage.

Edited June 28, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, dragonlordsd said:

+5 Julia has 54 attack, +20% from weapon triangle advantage gives her +10.8, which I believe rounds up to be 65.

No calculation in this game, if performed in the same order as the game, rounds up.

 

1 hour ago, dragonlordsd said:

Olwen has 25 res thanks to life and death, and takes 40 damage, if all offense buffs. (side note, at +5, her res is still only 27, within margin of error)

Olwen has 30 Res base. Life and Death 3 subtracts 5 and Fortify Cavalry adds 6 for a total of 31 Res.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

@dragonlordsd Here is the calculator. It beats doing it manually.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

52 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Look, I'm not trying to say Olwen is a bad unit. She is a great unit. I was just trying to make a point about cost/value ratio for more players.

 

objecting against this was never the point

i perfectly agree with the idea that weighted calculator is always better than unweighted one. But Julia isn't exactly a good example. In a 4B Olwen(Standard 3 member Horse Emblem buffset), vs +5(Standard Merge) Julia with Fury scenario, Julia only wins if she is +ATK. Otherwise Olwen kill her off for free, and get put in a desperation range

 

[shadowofchaos]

1 hour ago, dragonlordsd said:

*stuff*

Minor nitpick (I'm mostly staying out of this)

You round down for damage.

This game is biased to reduce damage during rounding.

Edited June 28, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Johann]

Remember Hawkeye? I remember Hawkeye.

[XRay]

15 minutes ago, Johann said:

Remember Hawkeye? I remember Hawkeye.

Hawkeye has nice muscles.

[Tenzen12]

Hawkeye has nice daughter.

[Okigen]

I love it when any 'best unit' topic automatically becomes a Hector discussion. The guy deserves all attention. What a cool character! What a nice axe! The design alone deserves S+ tier 

Anyway, I guess the edge Hawkeye has over Hector is that he's available as 4 stars. I have 3 5* and 3 4* in stock right now - that is, already after sacrificing one  5* for DB fodder and sending home at least 5 4* in one row. As long as I keep pulling green I'm sure I'll get 11 Hawkeye in no time. Will be nice to have +10 something - anything really - even if he is as slow as a snail.

[dragonlordsd]

21 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

No calculation in this game, if performed in the same order as the game, rounds up.

 

Olwen has 30 Res base. Life and Death 3 subtracts 5 and Fortify Cavalry adds 6 for a total of 31 Res.

No rounding: good to know. Thanks. I did wonder about that.

That must be where the mistake was. If it rounded up, Fortify Cavalry wouldn't be enough to survive, so she'd have to run two ward cavalry, which would cut her offense down.

So she would survive with 1 hp.... good thing I run hone attack hector/reinhardt. Account for those inconsistencies.

Edited June 29, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[MrSmokestack]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:48 AM, Ice Dragon said:

No calculation in this game, if performed in the same order as the game, rounds up.

If I'm not mistaken...

Neutral Nino does 20x2 to Xander:

(46 * 0.8 = 36.8 --> 37 - 17 = 20)

If it rounded down, she would be doing 19x2 instead.

Conversely, neutral Xander does 38. This is where rounding down gives the correct damage:

(48 * 1.2 = 57.6 --> 57 - 19 = 38)

In other words, weapon advantage rounds down, weapon disadvantage rounds up. This was mentioned in your Research thread too, if I recall correctly. Unless something else came up after the fact?

 

I assume fort tiles behave the same way as weapon advantage, since we're on the subject?

@shadowofchaos @dragonlordsd

[Vaximillian]

@MrSmokestack, WTD rounds up if you’re multiplying by less than one (46 × 0.8 = 36.8↑; 37 –17 = 20)

But if you’re doing it the way the game is supposedly doing, by first calculating the WT bonus, you do round down (46 × 0.2 = 9.2↓; 46 – 9 = 37; 37 – 17 = 20)

In the end, it’s the same either way, but the calculations are still a tiny bit different.

[MrSmokestack]

@Vaximillian Ah, that makes more sense now.

Practically speaking, it's still easier to multiply by 0.8 rather than taking 0.2 and subtracting it, but hey, that's how the game works.

But what about forts?

Edited June 30, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

53 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

@Vaximillian Ah, that makes more sense now.

Practically speaking, it's still easier to multiply by 0.8 rather than taking 0.2 and subtracting it, but hey, that's how the game works.

But what about forts?

IIRC forts is just Def with +20%. Say Xander, 46 Def = 46 + 9.2 = 55.2(55). Its kinda true that its basically WTA

 

Also i object to that statement because 0.8 multiplication is somewhat complicated due to 8 being in the middle, and not really a simple numbers. In contrast calculating 20% is either a division by 5 and 5 is the simplest number, or 2 which is a smaller number of multiplication to process. multiply by 0.8 have 8 process, division of 5 is variative but its simple anyway, multiplication by 2 and substraction is 5 process. The simplified version of 8 is 2 repeated 4 times, but if you shorten 0.8 into 0.2 in this calculation your not being efficient with the processing anyway

 

Wait why are we discussing it again?

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by JSND

[Vaximillian]

22 minutes ago, JSND said:

IIRC forts is just Def with +20%. Say Xander, 46 Def = 46 + 9.2 = 55.2(55). Its kinda true that its basically WTA

Wait why are we discussing it again?

Forts are (damage – ((Def or Res) × 0.3)↓), aren’t they? They don’t increase Def or Res, they decrease damage taken.

Maths are fascinating, that’s why.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Vaximillian

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Forts are (damage – ((Def or Res) × 0.3)↓), aren’t they? They don’t increase Def or Res, they decrease damage taken.

 

According to KC calcs, which i personally used for in game calcs, its 30% defense increase which is why they scale ridiculously well with high def character. The easiest way to notice it is on character like Xander/Hector who have high enough defense that the increase can turn damage to 0, when multiplication would make that impossible

 

Abel have 49 Attack to Xander 37. He deals 12 damage

Abel attacks. Triangle advantage boosts attack by 20%. 12 damage dealt.

 

The same as above, now with DT Xander. 37 x 1.3 = 48.1 which is 49 - 48 = 1

Abel attacks. Triangle advantage boosts attack by 20%. Opponent reduces damage by 30% of their defense by standing on defensive terrain. 1 damage dealt.

 

Of course this is coded in a different way to combat stats, otherwise we would be seeing 29 damage bonfire

Edited June 30, 2017 by JSND

[MrSmokestack]

36 minutes ago, JSND said:

Also i object to that statement because 0.8 multiplication is somewhat complicated due to 8 being in the middle, and not really a simple numbers. In contrast calculating 20% is either a division by 5 and 5 is the simplest number, or 2 which is a smaller number of multiplication to process. multiply by 0.8 have 8 process, division of 5 is variative but its simple anyway, multiplication by 2 and substraction is 5 process. The simplified version of 8 is 2 repeated 4 times, but if you shorten 0.8 into 0.2 in this calculation your not being efficient with the processing anyway

 

Wait why are we discussing it again?

Every day I'm glad we have calculators on our smart phones for this very reason.

Math is everything!

[Vaximillian]

1 hour ago, JSND said:

Opponent reduces damage by 30% of their defense by standing on defensive terrain. 1 damage dealt.

Of course this is coded in a different way to combat stats, otherwise we would be seeing 29 damage bonfire

Did you read what I posted? Forts do not increase defence. Forts reduce damage by a fraction of defence.

Which is exactly what it says in the KC comment.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

19 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Did you read what I posted? Forts do not increase defence. Forts reduce damage by a fraction of defence.

Which is exactly what it says in the KC comment.

I read it. I just didn't get it lul

[Junkhead]

3 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Did you read what I posted? Forts do not increase defence. Forts reduce damage by a fraction of defence.

Which is exactly what it says in the KC comment.

So how much do they decrease damage.