Scorched Grand Hero Battle: Valter, the Moonstone

[Ice Dragon]

16 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Well with TA3 she can still take him out when she is initiate.

You're the one who didn't want to talk about player phase.

 

17 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

And if she doesn't initiate she still 2RKO

And takes another 10 damage from the Vantage hit, leaving her with 10 HP (assuming -Res and not -HP (6 HP) or -Def (1 HP)).

 

[Tenzen12]

Yes, but that also means she just tanked two rounds and lived (with third of her life), as I said that's how I would describe great tank. And even after that she is still capable deleting enemies in player turn or reposition.  

Edit: Of course considering UI is dumb you can expect have buffs on your side which makes it much more one sided fight.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Ice Dragon]

35 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Yes, but that also means she just tanked two rounds and lived (with third of her life), as I said that's how I would describe great tank.

That also means she killed only one enemy (two rounds of combat is meaningless if that only resulted in one enemy dying) and is now completely out of commission for enemy-phase combat, which is pretty bad for a tank when most can kill two or three benchmark-level opponents before becoming unable to continue, and some can simply tank indefinitely.

 

43 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

(with third of her life)

One quarter. 10/40 = 25%.

If Ryoma were running Moonbow, you'd be at 4 HP (which means you're dead if you have -HP or -Def). If Ryoma were running Draconic Aura or Luna, you'd be flat out dead.

 

38 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Of course considering UI is dumb you can expect have buffs on your side which makes it much more one sided fight.

In the Arena and Tempest Trials, it's not uncommon for units to be carrying buffs and Rallies (and the double Rallies are annoyingly common in Tempest Trials for some reason). The AI might not know to use Hones and Fortifies, but the AI definitely knows how to use Rallies.

[Tenzen12]

That also means she defeated worst possible match in her niche. It's not much different from Effie vs Selena with same set up. That doesn't make Effie bad thank though.

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, Tenzen12 said:

That also means she defeated worst possible match in her niche. It's not much different from Effie vs Selena with same set up. That doesn't make Effie bad thank though.

Winning a match-up you're supposed to win is not an accomplishment.

[Tenzen12]

Of course it is. As I pointed out on example no tank has can do it's job flawlessly, Effie is weak against Armorslayers (and magic), Hector against magic (ie Reinhardt). Among flyers Subaki is better because QR, but considering pass is ditchable skill anyway you can give Cordelia can weild it almost as much effectively. Well, that would require additional SI, but considering your ideal build pretty much require replacing her A skills I don't see problem here.

Hmm... Actually giving Cordelia QR sound like really good idea. I guess I will go for that.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

As I pointed out on example no tank has can do it's job flawlessly

That just means your tanks weren't tanky enough.

Tiki tanks every green unit in the game that isn't running Cancel Affinity, which is rare to see on anything not named Bride Cordelia, who isn't green, and Mathilda, who isn't green.

Julia with her standard build cannot double attack and deals a mere 12 damage, which fails to even break Quick Riposte 3. Spring Camilla deals less damage unless she has both flier buffs. Tiki also one-round kills every green unit in the game on the counterattack except for a buffed Sheena.

An axe user needs to break 64 Atk to deal damage to Tiki. Hector has 55 Atk with his standard set, so that's not happening.

Tiki's performance is even better at higher merges due to bulk scaling faster with merges than Atk.

That's effectively flawless.

[Tenzen12]

With exception of Nino who (Running LoD or fury) still leave  either version of Tiki with half of her hp without any buffs involved. Tiki's  saving grace is that green is pretty weak colour and NIno only unit  that stand out can't run vantage effectively, so Tiki needs tank only once. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

With exception of Nino who (Running LoD or fury) still leave  either version of Tiki with half of her hp without any buffs involved. Tiki's  saving grace is that green is pretty weak colour and NIno only unit  that stand out can't run vantage effectively.Otherwise Tiki would be toast. So yeah not much different from Cordelia vs Ryouma.

This is a proper tank build: Mystery Tiki [+Spd/+Atk, -HP] (Lightning Breath+, Triangle Adept 3, Quick Riposte 3).

 

Nino has 33 Atk with neutral Atk (Nino, like Ryoma, standardly runs +Spd). Life and Death 3 is +5 Atk. Gronnblade+ is +13 Atk. That's 51 Atk.

Tiki's Triangle Adept lowers 51 Atk to 31 Atk. Tiki has 29 Res. Nino does 2×2 damage. This is with no buffs.

 

On a proper tank build, you're also running an ally with Fortify Dragons, which increases Tiki's Res to 35. A decent Arena team might be able to give Nino +3/4/4/2 if the stars align just right.

Nino has +16 Atk from buffs. That's 65 Atk.

Tiki's Triangle Adept lowers 65 Atk to 39 Atk. Tiki has 35 Res. Nino does 4×2 damage.

 

Let's take that to +10. Nino how has 69 Atk from merges.

Tiki's Triangle Adept lowers 69 Atk to 42 Atk. Tiki has 39 Res. Nino does 3×2 damage.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

7 hours ago, eclipse said:

Iote's Shield exists (and would honestly be pretty funny on Valter)

Hm, he does have good defense, but I feel like that's a bit too passive for such an offensive beast. It goes well with Subaki because of his role...

[DraceEmpressa]

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Hm, he does have good defense, but I feel like that's a bit too passive for such an offensive beast. It goes well with Subaki because of his role...

My Takumi was -atk and a Subaki without that can survive. That's how tanky he is . 

[Sonnua]

On 03/08/2017 at 1:56 AM, eclipse said:

I run an archer with a Brave Bow+.  Flier Emblem doesn't concern me overly much (yet).  Iote's Shield exists (and would honestly be pretty funny on Valter), but a lot of things don't do well against 54x2 damage, pre-Defense.

Running an archer is a viable option but unfortunately  my BST gets hit thanks to that. I don't think I'll stand a chance in remaining in tier 20. 

 

Valter with lote shield would had been fun + more memes to make fun of Michaels

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Sonnua

[Tenzen12]

On 8/3/2017 at 4:58 AM, Ice Dragon said:

This is a proper tank build: Mystery Tiki [+Spd/+Atk, -HP] (Lightning Breath+, Triangle Adept 3, Quick Riposte 3).

 

Nino has 33 Atk with neutral Atk (Nino, like Ryoma, standardly runs +Spd). Life and Death 3 is +5 Atk. Gronnblade+ is +13 Atk. That's 51 Atk.

Tiki's Triangle Adept lowers 51 Atk to 31 Atk. Tiki has 29 Res. Nino does 2×2 damage. This is with no buffs.

 

On a proper tank build, you're also running an ally with Fortify Dragons, which increases Tiki's Res to 35. A decent Arena team might be able to give Nino +3/4/4/2 if the stars align just right.

Nino has +16 Atk from buffs. That's 65 Atk.

Tiki's Triangle Adept lowers 65 Atk to 39 Atk. Tiki has 35 Res. Nino does 4×2 damage.

 

Let's take that to +10. Nino how has 69 Atk from merges.

Tiki's Triangle Adept lowers 69 Atk to 42 Atk. Tiki has 39 Res. Nino does 3×2 damage.

You convinced Tiki is awesome tank Cordelia can't compare to. My point still stand, though. Cordelia can consistently shrug most of reds in enemy phase. Which make great tank on that count. Same can be said about Palla or Titania (who is alrighty (I know it's not word), even after getting LoD). Olivia probably too, but I didn't tried her yet.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Tenzen12

[MrSmokestack]

10 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

You convinced Tiki is awesome tank Cordelia can't compare to. My point still stand, though. Cordelia can consistently shrug most of reds in enemy phase. Which make great tank on that count. Same can be said about Palla or Titania (who is alrighty (I know it's not word), even after getting LoD). Olivia probably too, but I didn't tried her yet.

I think you're missing his point completely.

Cordelia existing solely as a red check isn't making good use of her 35/35 bases at all.

If you want a flier that can check reds, Catria does it much better than Cordelia. Cordelia is better used for an all-out offensive set with LaD / Brave Lance, since she already makes quick work of red units with or without Triangle Adept.

That way, there won't even be an enemy phase because the enemy team is too busy being dead to attack you.

[Tenzen12]

LoD is unnecessary overkill though. Better use A slot to cover some other role. 

As for Catria with basic skill set is pretty comparable (against fury Ryouma she got +5hp  after combat), but without option to delete him when she initiate.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Ice Dragon]

16 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

LoD is unnecessary overkill though. Better use A slot to cover some other role. 

Life and Death gives unbuffed +0 Cordelia [+Atk] a kill against vanilla neutral +0 versions of Sharena, Ephraim, Donnel, Oboro, Jagen, Abel, Catria, Tsubaki, Robin (M), Odin, Nowi, Corrin (F), Camilla, Julia, Spring Camilla, Virion, Matthew, Jakob, and Matthew that she fails to get without it.

[Tenzen12]

Most of these are blue or green. Thus units meant for other units. Plus there is no really reason run flyer without buffs in first place. 

Being able kill almost anyone and being being able control enemy movement is much more useful  than unit than can kill few more than that but have trouble get close.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Tenzen12

[MrSmokestack]

7 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Most of these are blue or green. Thus units meant for other units. Plus there is no really reason run flyer without buffs in first place.

Those KO's are without flier buffs. Ergo you can run her on any team that can use an offensive blue.

What's so bad about a unit being able to KO units of the same color as well as units that they're supposed to have a disadvantage against? Cordelia's offensive coverage is much worse with Triangle Adept compared to LaD. Not only that, but you can run Drag Back as her B Passive to move out of enemy range as well as Reposition on her allies to keep her from getting hit.

I find it odd how you're writing off LaD as "overkill" when Triangle Adept is even more so against a color she already beats.

Edited August 4, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Tenzen12]

TA isn't meant to be offensive on Cordelia she kills good enough even without it, but it buff up her defense against reds, which is pretty good trade.

Anyway I will stop here as this is not SI thread, even if it's bit late already.

[eclipse]

On 8/2/2017 at 5:38 PM, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Hm, he does have good defense, but I feel like that's a bit too passive for such an offensive beast. It goes well with Subaki because of his role...

It's a reference to the Sacred Stones game, where Valter has their version of Iote's Shield.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

5 hours ago, eclipse said:

It's a reference to the Sacred Stones game, where Valter has their version of Iote's Shield.

Oh, that he does.

[silverserpent]

Narcian shall destroy. The only iffy part is that red mage in the corner. F!Corrin can nuke it. Or Cordelia...some blue unit.

*watches a second mage/archer tacked into infernal* FML if that happens. But I think I'll throw my newly improved flyer team at this one. Aerial combat FTW!

[DraceEmpressa]

Valter attacking portrait from.... Source is already on image. 

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, DraceEmpressa said:

Valter attacking portrait from.... Source is already on image. 

This man is absolutely gorgeous.

[Ae†her]

12 hours ago, DraceEmpressa said:

Valter attacking portrait from.... Source is already on image. 

This artwork is god tier. Near the likes of Hector's, Boey's, and Ephraim's artworks.