Most overused FE trope?

[Thane]

Just now, AzureSen said:

There was no prophesy surrounding Corrin. The closest Fates actually got to that was the Yato choosing its user and that Yato was forged to be the key to peace in Fateslandia (which is true, that is why the Rainbow Sage forged it). 

But the song about Corrin was written before their birth, detailing the events that would happen. 

3 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

People seem to completely forget Celica was also destined to win thanks to said prophesy, and also that said prophesy existed back in Gaiden, also known as the second game in the series.

That's fair, Celica too. I didn't know the prophecy was in Gaiden too, however. Where is it mentioned?

[vanguard333]

58 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

I guess this is a difference of opinion, then. While I agree that forgiveness isn't something someone deserves, it is something that needs to be earned, via genuine regret and repentance. And as far as I'm concerned, Berkut has done nothing to earn that forgiveness from anyone, especially Rinea, and is only being given it because it's a trope in Japanese media. (Also, and because I didn't notice until I did another read-through of Chapter 5's script, but Alm doesn't forgive Berkut for his actions; Alm is just desperately begging Berkut not to die because Alm doesn't want to see another family member die before his eyes in the same short timespan.)

 

Yeah; I noticed Alm's reaction as well. However, while it is small, Berkut does show signs of regret and remorse. "You’re right… You were always right. The moment I turned to a power beyond myself, the man you loved was dead. Rinea, forgive me…" Also, "Alm… You must…make Valentia a land not… of gods…but of men… A world where people…never again… are corrupted by divine power…" (He had no way of knowing Emperor Rudolf's true ambition, and, even if he did, he's clearly talking about himself. He's basically saying, "Remake the world so that no one else can make the same mistake I made.")

Of course, everyone is allowed their opinion, but I believe forgiveness does not need to be earned. I believe that when we do not show grace and forgive, we allow anger and contempt into our hearts, and it takes root.

 

1 hour ago, AzureSen said:

There was no prophesy surrounding Corrin. The closest Fates actually got to that was the Yato choosing its user and that Yato was forged to be the key to peace in Fateslandia (which is true, that is why the Rainbow Sage forged it).

The Song Lost in Thoughts All Alone is both a prophecy about Corrin and the choices he'll have to make, and Anankos' cry for help. You are right about the Yato choosing Corrin to be the key to peace. However, that's not why it was originally built. Remember the Rainbow Sage: "I who forged the sacred blade. I who committed the great sin." He forged the Yato as a weapon of war; bringing humanity into the war of the first dragons. Regretting what came out of that, he pledged not to rest until peace could be brought to humanity. It was a surprisingly written part of Fates that I wish had been expanded on in the story.

[Dismissed]

The number of lolis compared to the number of *whatever their male counterpart is* is disproportionate. On one hand you have Nowi, Elise, Nino, and Delthea. On the other hand? Very few qualify, and some of them are questionably *male counterpart of lolis*. Like Ricken and Nils. Especially Nils. Due to the hardware limitations of sharing a character slot with Ninian, Nils doesn't have any supports. If younger girls dating older guys is acceptable in FE, why can't it be the other way around? (Lyn/Nils, anyone?)

I find the Evil Emperor trope more interesting than the Evil Sorceror trope. Rudolf, Hardin, Zephiel and possibly Walhart all have their own reasons, but the typical Evil Sorceror is a sadistic power-hungry psychopath. Except in Fates where both Garon and Iago fail at their roles. Nergal was the best Evil Sorceror, as he has no master, which means he doesn't spend most of the time doing and following what the evil dragon says (Gharnef, Jedah, and Validar are guilty of this trope.)

Flying pegasus ladies are too fragile for me in most games, feeling out of place too, but they shine in the Archanea series, where they actually have a decent defense stat. However, I like triangle attacks, and it was nice how in Binding Blade and New Mystery a different trio can do it.

Lords being mostly Physical kind of disappoints a magic-lover like me, and a Mage Lord would be nice. Just don't rehash Micaiah.

Boat maps are pretty fun, especially the one in FE7, but it's best to limit it to one chapter per game. Maybe in FE16 shops and armories will return in the chapter maps, so we'd get something similar to FE7's Pirate Ship, which is my favorite level in the game. I'm not sure if that counts as overused, since only Gaiden, Blazing Blade, Sacred Stones, Path of Radiance, Awakening and Conquest as far as I know. I'm not sure about Revelation's level with the ocean and the ice though, it confuses me.

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 hours ago, Purple Mage said:

The number of lolis compared to the number of *whatever their male counterpart is* is disproportionate.

The term you're looking for is "shota".

I actually launched a "we need shotas!" post back on the Heroes board last month or something- the game has very few compared to the number of lolis. Shotas and shota-like individuals (a grey zone where I throw Kliff, Edward and Julian among others), are generally found in the mage or archer classes, with a couple thieves and a few others.

To name all the shotas I can off the top of my head, we have: Gordin, Ryan, Jubelo, Dew, Coirpre/Charlot, Asbel, Chad, Wolt, Lugh, Raigh, Ross, Ewan, Rolf, PoR Sothe, Tormod, Kurthnaga, Ricken, Hayato, Kiragi, Percy, and m!Morgan/Kana. So we're not totally lacking- the lolis just generally outshine them. You might also be able to call Roy the Shota Lord - but I think that depends on the artist who portrays him (his Smash appearance isn't shota, but his original Binding Blade design is).

As for Nils lacking supports- he only has the last couple chapters of FE7 to support- though that didn't stop Renault from getting supports, so that objection is kinda null. And for younger guys dating older girls, well if Rolf can't have Mist because of his meathead brother, RolfxMarcia I thought would be cute! And to be fair if breeding kids exist, young male and older female is a little less concerning than the other way around. Since Nowi, Elise, and Sakura, all of who act like kids, get pregnant and give birth- something which you'd want a person to be fully mature before taking, and which a male can't be.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[Dismissed]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And for younger guys dating older girls, well if Rolf can't have Mist because of his meathead brother, RolfxMarcia I thought would be cute! And to be fair if breeding kids exist, young male and older female is a little less concerning than the other way around. Since Nowi, Elise, and Sakura, all of who act like kids, get pregnant and give birth- something which you'd want a person to be fully mature before taking, and which a male can't be.

This is one of the main problems of lolis. Seriously, if devs want to add lolis to the game, at least make them be unable to conceive. The implications are a big concern. Sakura isn't as much of a loli compared to Elise.

Another problem is that while lolis are given love interests, shotas (most of the time) aren't. Nino and some others can fall in love, but what about Nils? Kliff? Ewan? Rolf? Heck, Male Kana is outright REJECTED in his English supports, although that's probably just a case of poor localization.

[Magical Glace]

7 minutes ago, Purple Mage said:

Ewan?

He can marry Amelia, for whatever that's worth.

Though she can also be paired with Franz and Ross so.

[Dismissed]

6 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

He can marry Amelia, for whatever that's worth.

Though she can also be paired with Franz and Ross so.

Oh. Although I think Trashmelia is Trash, it's nice to see Ewan getting a girl.

[Flee Fleet!]

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And for younger guys dating older girls

Dew can pair up with all the Gen 1 girls. Who are older than him.

 

 

[Florina's #1 Fan]

30 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Dew can pair up with all the Gen 1 girls. Who are older than him.

Dew: The true pimp lord of Genealogy.

[Etrurian emperor]

On 10-9-2017 at 5:22 PM, Purple Mage said:

If younger girls dating older guys is acceptable in FE, why can't it be the other way around? (Lyn/Nils, anyone?)

There are a couple of ones. In one of their lover conversations it brought up how Azelle is a fair bit younger than Adain, Dew is significantly younger then all available females, Roy can literary marry his teacher and at 15 most other girls are probably older then he is. More modern examples would be Ricken and Hayato and Morgan who's probably the youngest second gen.

14 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

So we're not totally lacking- the lolis just generally outshine them.

Perhaps they do in popularity and representation but in terms of characters I actually think the Shota's from Fire emblem got the better deal and have a pretty good track record.
Most loli's seem locked to common cliches, ranging from the child like behavior of Tiki to the outgoing Elise, to the shyer Myr and Sakura. The boys seem more free to bring their own character which we can see in the likes of Tormod, Raigh, Sothe, Nils and Erk. 

[Magical Glace]

15 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Roy can literary marry his teacher and at 15 most other girls are probably older then he is

It's really only Sophia and Cecilia who aren't close to him in age, Lilina, Shanna, Sue, and Larum are all presumably in the 15-16-ish range.  

[NekoKnight]

22 hours ago, Purple Mage said:

Male Kana is outright REJECTED in his English supports, although that's probably just a case of poor localization.

Kana looks like he's 8 years old. The localization did their best to fix the incredibly awkward situation the Japanese version created.

On 09/08/2017 at 11:51 AM, Armagon said:

"The dragon was the true evil all along" trope. Shadow Dragon, Mystery of the Emblem, Shadows of Valentia, Genealogy of the Holy War (kinda), Binding Blade (kinda), Blazing Blade (kinda), Awakening, Fates. 8 out of 15 Fire Emblem games have the "evil dragon" trope. And if you add spin-offs into the mix, TMS#FE, and FE Warriors also have the "evil dragon" trope (yes i know Warriors isn't out yet but c'mon, we already know an evil dragon is behind it all).

Granted, in some cases, it's different. In Shadows of Valentia, Duma wasn't actually evil. Geneaolgy's final boss was Julius, and it was actually him, he was just channeling Lopytr's power. In Binding Blade, despie Idoun being the final boss, she's only the final boss because Zephiel unsealed her, making Zephiel the true villain of Binding Blade. The Fire Dragon in Blazing Blade just kinda came out of nowhere and isn't really the true villain. But other than that, about half of the FE series has the "evil dragon" trope.

The fact that you had to list so many exceptions to the "evil dragon end boss" trope speaks to their variety. If you don't like dragons in FE (which I think is like being a Tolkien fan and not liking elves) that's one thing, but all those aren't the same.

On 09/08/2017 at 0:24 PM, Rezzy said:

but it's okay to pee in her butt, because she's actually a thousand years old.

No need for context here.

On 09/08/2017 at 3:40 PM, ping said:

Dragon lolis aren't as omnipresent, and to be fair, little Tiki, Fae and Myrrh aren't as sexualized beyond an unrequited crush on the protagonist.

Until Awakening started the "I must be allowed to stick my dick into everything" trend, dragon "lolis" were never really treated as sexual beings, so putting them into the same category as Nowi is a gross generalisation.

Personally, I don't mind them. Variety is always nice but I appreciate the "this person is immortal but has a child's body becase they don't age" angle they went with. There are plenty of adult body manaketes anyway, it's just few are playable.

On 09/10/2017 at 3:52 PM, Thane said:

I feel like there's some middle ground between crying about being left alone and cursing his name. 

Speaking of Alm, there's a worrying rise of prophecies in Fire Emblem. Both Corrin and Alm were destined to win according to prophecy, and that always makes it feel like everything is on-rails. Sure, we've had special people with special weapons that can do the special thing, but it was never preordained; Chrom even fails in one timeline, for example.

I just dislike prophesies in general. It's a lazy way of forwarding information to the audience and uncertainties make for more interesting stories. Even subverting prophesies in media is getting tired.

[Thane]

11 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I just dislike prophesies in general. It's a lazy way of forwarding information to the audience and uncertainties make for more interesting stories. Even subverting prophesies in media is getting tired.

Yupp. As a whole I really can't stand prophecies. Like you say, it's cheap, and I believe it makes stories feel like they're on rails. Also, if people are capable of predicting the future in such detail it's a wonder they couldn't do something about whatever threat that needs such a specific hero in the first place.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Thane

[Armagon]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

The fact that you had to list so many exceptions to the "evil dragon end boss" trope speaks to their variety. If you don't like dragons in FE (which I think is like being a Tolkien fan and not liking elves) that's one thing, but all those aren't the same.

I like dragons in FE. I never said i didn't. But i'm not the only one to voice my complaint of seeing the true villain be a dragon. Even if the circumstances are different, the final boss in Fire Emblem is usually a dragon. Sometimes, it shouldn't be a dragon. Like in Blazing Blade, there was literally no reason for the Fire Dragon to be there.

[Interdimensional Observer]

9 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

If you don't like dragons in FE (which I think is like being a Tolkien fan and not liking elves)

I think that is going a bit far. Although I will say one has an easier time being a Dragon Quest fan and not liking dragons like being an FE fan. There are plenty of things to like about FE that don't revolve around dragons, even when they feature. Jugdral's plot would become disconnected from the rest of the FE world yes, but it wouldn't crumble if every mention of "dragon" was replaced with "god", and then we have Magvel and Tellius, where they exist only because they've been in the series in the past.

 

10 hours ago, Thane said:

Yupp. As a whole I really can't stand prophecies. Like you say, it's cheap, and I believe it makes stories feel like they're on rails. Also, if people are capable of predicting the future in such detail it's a wonder they couldn't do something about whatever threat that needs such a specific hero in the first place.

Well there is the odd case of Super Paper Mario of all things. It's acknowledged that the good prophecy the Light Prognosticus, was invented to combat the bad prophecy the Dark Prognosticus. So in other words- a prophecy was made by someone, which kinda defies what a prophecy should be, natural and eternal- not a artifice.

 

10 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I just dislike prophesies in general. It's a lazy way of forwarding information to the audience and uncertainties make for more interesting stories. Even subverting prophesies in media is getting tired.

And to bring in Awakening, the subversion of prophecy we get there only serves to make out Validar as very incompetent. Though I do think we (I must include myself) overplay his incompetence a bit. Say as we will that Validar couldn't conquer a preschool, he did kill Emmeryn in Lucina's world and succeed in his task of bringing back Grima. He also could have succeeded in Chrom's world were it not for Lucina- an outsider who shouldn't have been there. Though it's also because of an outsider in Grobin that Grima is resurrected in Chrom world- not so much Validar.

 

On 9/11/2017 at 1:31 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Perhaps they do in popularity and representation but in terms of characters I actually think the Shota's from Fire emblem got the better deal and have a pretty good track record.
Most loli's seem locked to common cliches, ranging from the child like behavior of Tiki to the outgoing Elise, to the shyer Myr and Sakura. The boys seem more free to bring their own character which we can see in the likes of Tormod, Raigh, Sothe, Nils and Erk.

I agree that shotas are generally better done character-wise. Erk I don't think I'd label as a shota, but he could be in the gray zone (and now that I just remembered- Franz is also a gray zone shota (has a big brother, soft expression, a brand new knight- bonds with the loli Amelia) - so we've possibly had a cav shota- yay for diversity).

 

On 9/11/2017 at 7:53 AM, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Dew: The true pimp lord of Genealogy.

And most interestingly, one of his best/most common pairings is with Brigid- who comes off to me as the oldest of the 1st gen ladies. I like to imagine that he gave Patty her name when he smiled at her straight outta the womb and she started to clap her hands together, he went along and thus they started to play the classic baby game of pattycakes.

While I find the fan translation scripts on SF to be overly casual with their language and totally not what an official translation would do, do look at this if you haven't already.

Lachesis:
“Dew, what are you doing here!?”

Dew:
“What gives? I can handle bein’ here now. I’m not the same Dew anymore.”

Lachesis:
“I know. But this next battle isn’t going to be like the others! It’ll be way out of your league, Dew.”

Dew:
“Everyone’s been sayin’ that crap. I’m not a kid anymore!”

Lachesis:
“I can definitely vouch for that, Dew. Heheh… Especially after what we…”

Dew:
“H, hey! You’re gettin’ red there, girl!”

Lachesis:
“Oh, Dew!”

Dew:
“Lachesis, it’s been great bein’ with you. You’re always nice to me.”

Lachesis:
“Same goes to you, Dew.”

[NekoKnight]

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

I like dragons in FE. I never said i didn't. But i'm not the only one to voice my complaint of seeing the true villain be a dragon. Even if the circumstances are different, the final boss in Fire Emblem is usually a dragon. Sometimes, it shouldn't be a dragon. Like in Blazing Blade, there was literally no reason for the Fire Dragon to be there.

For the record, I'm not a fan of "Evil dragon wants to wipe out humanity for reasons", I'm just saying that narratively, they aren't as common as you claim. Nergal, Zephiel and Jedah/Rudolf are the driving forces of their games', not the dragon at the end, for example.

The Fire Dragon has every reason to be in FE7. Nergal's plan is to summon them and steal their power. When you first go to Dragons Gate, Nergal almost summons one but fails. Then at the end he suceeds but is still thwarted by the efforts of the heroes. This is the only dragon you actually fight in the game, so I think it's a rewarding conclusion.

[Emperor Hardin]

16 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Until Awakening started the "I must be allowed to stick my dick into everything" trend, dragon "lolis" were never really treated as sexual beings, so putting them into the same category as Nowi is a gross generalisation.

Personally, I don't mind them. Variety is always nice but I appreciate the "this person is immortal but has a child's body becase they don't age" angle they went with. There are plenty of adult body manaketes anyway, it's just few are playable.

Agreed there.

More of a human years to Dragon years situation. Though Tiki was especially like a human child due to only being awake for ten years.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

The Fire Dragon has every reason to be in FE7. Nergal's plan is to summon them and steal their power. When you first go to Dragons Gate, Nergal almost summons one but fails. Then at the end he suceeds but is still thwarted by the efforts of the heroes. This is the only dragon you actually fight in the game, so I think it's a rewarding conclusion.

The reason i didn't like the Fire Dragon being there is because

1. It had no character
2. It appears after Nergal's death. Nergal was hyped up to be the big bad of the game but then the true final boss isn't him.

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 minutes ago, Armagon said:

The reason i didn't like the Fire Dragon being there is because

1. It had no character
2. It appears after Nergal's death. Nergal was hyped up to be the big bad of the game but then the true final boss isn't him.

Agreed- there is no reason why the Fire Dragon should attack- it isn't a war dragon like FE6's. It's a real person like Ninian and Nils and Jahn and Bantu, but we hear nothing from it. 

Nergal had to summon a dragon to make good on a threat yeah. But the "With my last breath/I'm taking you with me!" approach was the wrong one. Having an FD on the map with the player needing to defeat Nergal first, and then mercy killing the beast might have worked better.

 

And on Nergal's power level. Elbert has no qualms just stabbing him and injuring him so badly it weakens him for quite a number of chapters thereafter. But later, Athos is all "We need Aureola or we're doomed!". How to explain this logically?

[Acacia Sgt]

Personally, I think the Fire Dragon is simply potential brought up when it wouldn't amount to much. After all, what are the chances there could be dragons like Yahn on the other side of the Dragon Gate. But since the game is a prequel and we know how the whole "dragon(s) want revenge" was done, so it wasn't likely going to be brought up with the dragons emerging from the gate. But then nothing is said about the dragons that crossed the gate either, for that matter. Perhaps if Binding Blade had used that angle (from my understanding, the whole fleeing to another world is not in Binding Blade, but I could be wrong), then the FD fight could've been a callback/foreshadowing to Binding Blade. But yes, while story-wise the FD fight has a story justification, gameplay-wise it was not entirely needed.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Emperor Hardin]

10 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

 (from my understanding, the whole fleeing to another world is not in Binding Blade, but I could be wrong)

It isn't.

However the writers covered themselves as Jahn/Yahn was sealed alive with Idenn after the downfall of the King of Dragons. Basically the in universe explanation is Jahn never learned of it because the dragon gate came in after the fall of the Dragon's leader and the ending winter, the period in which Jahn was sealed.

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

The reason i didn't like the Fire Dragon being there is because

1. It had no character
2. It appears after Nergal's death. Nergal was hyped up to be the big bad of the game but then the true final boss isn't him.

The dragon is an extension of Nergal, the culmination of his ambition. Nergal is very much the big bad, and the lack of characterization for the dragon only cements this. They are back to back bosses anyway, it's just like the stage 2 of single boss fight.

Edited September 13, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Magical Glace]

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And on Nergal's power level. Elbert has no qualms just stabbing him and injuring him so badly it weakens him for quite a number of chapters thereafter. But later, Athos is all "We need Aureola or we're doomed!". How to explain this logically?

I always assumed it was just meant to show off how badass Elbert was.  Guy apparently had enough Quintessence to be a suitable replacement for a civil war in Lycia, after all.

[DolphinDingus]

While it has been mentioned before with the whole "evil dragon" cliche, I am going to expand on that. I can't stand the "evil guy in power seeks more power (or has some other reason, usually involving an evil god), so they start a war. It turns out this guy was actually the pawn of a greater evil. The former is the penultimate boss, the latter is the final boss." Fire Emblem stories in a nutshell.

Also, anything to do with the power of friendship.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

Just now, DolphinDingus said:

Also, anything to do with the power of friendship.

You are making Ike cry. I can sense his soul being crushed.

I totally agree, though, screw "friendship power"