Most overused FE trope?

[Etrurian emperor]

29 minutes ago, Arn said:

There are literally 4 loli dragons in the entire franchise, Fae, Myrrh, Nowi and maybe Nah. How is that a trope? Hell, I'd argue that Nowi is just a genki girl.

5 actually since you missed Tiki.

Its a trope because aside from Bantu all Manakute's are depicted as little girls. About every dragon that joins your team is a loli. If there were more older dragons or even just a shota it might be less noticeable. 

Even if you count the older Dragon Laguz then Tellius still remains an exception to the general rule that playable dragons are 10 years old. 

[Rapier]

11 hours ago, Captain Karnage said:

a cast full of teens with no military experience

That's kind of the point: Inexperienced, young people who go to war out of necessity and learn the hopes along the way (although the "anime" aspect of the games usually don't show much growth of their part and they remain roughly the same).

11 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Lolis and dragon lolis in particular

Nowi is the worst.  She looks and acts like a ten year old, but it's okay to pee in her butt, because she's actually a thousand years old.

She's mature enough (mentally) to act like an adult (some of her supports reveal that she's actually more mature than she acts, but she prefers playing around like a 10 years old). That only makes it more silly.

38 minutes ago, Aya Shameimaru said:

Gary Stu, the "perfect" Lord like Ephraim and FE10 Ike.

I don't like Ephraim much (he gets too much plot armor for his bullshits), but he makes mistakes along the game and gets scolded for them (Seth's dialogue after they retake Renais in particular is a crowning moment for both).

Ike deserves all that praise in FE10 as a result of his actions on FE9, it is not like FE10 Ike exists in a vaccuum without FE9's context behind it. All the people who admire him had their respects earned when Ike was little more than a random sellsword with an attitude. I wish Micaiah had more presence in FE10, but that's entirely the writing's fault for not giving her the spotlight she deserved, not Ike's, (and even then I doubt people wouldn't complain more loudly about her character because they already do) by having her body hijacked by Yune on situations where Micaiah herself could shine and by narrating too many important events that happen simultaneously (even if we take Ike away, the Laguz Alliance War would still take a huge portion of the narrative).

Edited September 8, 2017 by Rapier

[Jingle Jangle]

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

5 actually since you missed Tiki.

Its a trope because aside from Bantu all Manakute's are depicted as little girls. About every dragon that joins your team is a loli. If there were more older dragons or even just a shota it might be less noticeable. 

Even if you count the older Dragon Laguz then Tellius still remains an exception to the general rule that playable dragons are 10 years old. 

I think Nagi, us the only exception to what you said. Also I don't think Ninian counts as a loli. But sure, the series could branch out into different appearances in playable Manaketes

[Thane]

45 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, since the worst I was originally going to say have been said (mad dragon, evil sorcerer mastermind, etc.), I will say that the crown prince lord whose kingdom gets invaded and conquered has been done to death. Why does the hero always have to be a prince or noble who's heir to the throne once all's said and done and becomes king. It would be nice if we actually saw how being heir affected them, but we almost never do, and, when we do, we almost never see their predecessor and, with it, who's shoes they're trying to fill.

Yeah, it's almost bizarre just how frequent this is, and worse yet, how little is done to expand upon it. There are more people who can be charge of armies than just princes or nobles, but I'd say that isn't even the most important part. What really gets me is how we so rarely see, like you say, the people whose shoes the playable characters are trying to fill, or how they actually go about ruling the country afterwards.

There's a reason why many love the second arc of Radiant Dawn so much: it shows Elincia actually ruling, not just winning back her kingdom and which then goes on to prosper and enter a new golden age. What's more, she's actually struggling and has a breakdown due to all the infighting. 

I mean, some of these people we put on their thrones don't really seem like they'd know what to do once in charge. And you know what? Showing that could be pretty damn interesting! 

[Armagon]

10 hours ago, Chad Radwell said:

Listen, I know lore up until Fates stated that pegazooses only let pure maidens or whatever the hell near them, but it seems like the biggest cop-out in terms of cutout characters imo.

There's an actual mythological reason as to why Pegasus Knights are generally female in the series. That being said, male Pegasus Knights existed in Mystery of the Emblem, but they were enemy only.

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Jingle Jangle said:

Also I don't think Ninian counts as a loli. But sure, the series could branch out into different appearances in playable Manaketes

Ninian has her own separate issue of being a mysterious amnesiac girl the heroes chance upon. And on her my feelings are very mixed- her being a hybrid was for its time in FE quite unique. She is important to the plot, but she sticks out too much, her Eliwood support is gimped by her holding back on the truth, her resurrection hurts more than the most powerful Deus Ex Deus Ex Rain you can whip up in Bravely Second, and why she'll die soon has no real explanation- after all Fae has no problem living in Arcadia for centuries. Also, how the heck did Nergal forget his kids and them their father? That is never explained either- even though it is implied that they sensed it was him unconsciously.

 

I can't say much that hasn't already been said. Down with perfection, down with pure evilness, down with every last unabashed trope! Why must such potential so frequently go wasted? Sephiran, I feel ya.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[ping]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

There's an actual mythological reason as to why Pegasus Knights are generally female in the series. That being said, male Pegasus Knights existed in Mystery of the Emblem, but they were enemy only.

Is there? I always thought that the FE authors mixed together the pegasus and unicorn mythology, since afaik only the latter has "can only be tamed by a maiden" associated with it. According to the wikipedia page about pegasi (not a good source, I know), the original Greek Pegasos was the steed of Bellerophon (i.e. a dude) when he slew the chimera.

25 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Also, how the heck did Nergal forget his kids and them their father? That is never explained either- even though it is implied that they sensed it was him unconsciously.

Doesn't the game say that dark magic will mess with the caster's mind pretty bad? I don't think it's explicitly stated, but iirc the game makes it clear (probably in one of the annoyingly obscure, hector-route exclusive gaidens) that Nergal has basically lost his identity and mostly acts out of the instict that he needs moah powah without remembering why.

Honestly, if all the details about Nergal's backstory weren't littered all over gaiden chapters that you would never find without a guide, I would say that out of all the FE villains, he's the one who does the "evil without a cause" trope best. Unfortunately, if you don't find all the clues about his past, he's just another basic Muahahahaha!villain.

Edited September 8, 2017 by ping

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, ping said:

Doesn't the game say that dark magic will mess with the caster's mind pretty bad? I don't think it's explicitly stated, but iirc the game makes it clear (probably in one of the annoyingly obscure, hector-route exclusive gaidens) that Nergal has basically lost his identity and mostly acts out of the instict that he needs moah powah without remembering why.

Yeah I get that part of things pretty clearly. I think its more the kids forgetting (and not telling LEH about them being half-breeds) which I find to be the problem. I mean perhaps they didn't forget and simply thought that their father had to be dead given the passing of hundreds of years (reasonable I admit). But being so close to Nergal for an extended period of time you'd think would have jogged a childhood memory or two. As for Nergal- I guess once his kids crossed over he thought there was no way of getting them back.

There is also the matter of why Athos his dear friend knew nothing of the wife and kids- there is a reasonable answer in Nergal not wanting to open such a tragic memory to others. But at the same time- Arcadia had dragons- who could open the gate for him and allow him to be reunited with his lost children. Why didn't he ask one of them to do it? You'd think if he had already been corrupted and had forgotten, that Athos would have known. Unless Nergal's trauma from Aenir's loss caused him to repress his family memories, which only subconsciously returned later. This is pure speculation though.

[Armagon]

36 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

her being a hybrid was for its time in FE quite unique. 

I mean, technically, Sophia was the first hybrid character in Fire Emblem. That being said, unlike Ninian, Sophia was never seen transforming into a dragon. We just know that she's half-human, half-dragon.

36 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

why she'll die soon has no real explanation- after all Fae has no problem living in Arcadia for centuries.

This upsets me every time i think about it. The game says that Elibe's oxygen has changed so Nils and Ninian couldn't stay there for long, and i find that to be complete bullshit. It makes no sense.

12 minutes ago, ping said:

I always thought that the FE authors mixed together the pegasus and unicorn mythology,

They do. I'm sure it's no coincidence that whenever a Pegasus Knight promotes into a Falcoknight, they end up getting a flying unicorn.

12 minutes ago, ping said:

Doesn't the game say that dark magic will mess with the caster's mind pretty bad? I don't think it's explicitly stated,

It actually is. In Canas and Pent's B-Support, Canas says that he has three brothers who are still alive but are basically just empty shells because of Dark Magic.

Then there's the case of Bramimond, who perfected the incredibly powerful Apocalypse, but it came at the cost of his humanity, to the point to where he's a completely different person depending on who sees and talks to him.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Armagon

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

It actually is. In Canas and Pent's B-Support, Canas says that he has three brothers who are still alive but are basically just empty shells because of Dark Magic.

Then there's the case of Bramimond, who perfected the incredibly powerful Apocalypse, but it came at the cost of his humanity, to the point to where he's a completely different person depending on who sees and talks to him.

 

But the important thing is that Bramimond maintains his own free will. It was of his own choice that he fought in the Scouring, watched over the seals on the legendary weapons, and then break the seal and revives Ninian. He made a great sacrifice to gain immortality from time, clairvoyance, Apocalypse and much else, but it didn't cost him everything. This is why I find Bramimond so fascinating- he is a master of darkness without equal in FE who rests upon a glorious base of fleshed-out lore. Izuka, Julius, Validar, Gharnef, Nergal, Lyon, Jedah- they're all mad, only Bramimond ascends to the peak of darkness, and yet maintains his sanity.

He is no trope, I will certainly say that. (And that I'm his biggest fan.)

[ping]

Not gonna lie, Elibe's dark magic has the most interesting lore of any magic schools in the series by far.

22 minutes ago, Armagon said:

It actually is. In Canas and Pent's B-Support, Canas says that he has three brothers who are still alive but are basically just empty shells because of Dark Magic.

Oh, I the "not explicitly stated" was referring to Nergal specifically losing his identity. I might have phrased a bit ambiguously.

28 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Yeah I get that part of things pretty clearly. I think its more the kids forgetting (and not telling LEH about them being half-breeds) which I find to be the problem. I mean perhaps they didn't forget and simply thought that their father had to be dead given the passing of hundreds of years (reasonable I admit). But being so close to Nergal for an extended period of time you'd think would have jogged a childhood memory or two. As for Nergal- I guess once his kids crossed over he thought there was no way of getting them back.

Oh yes, you're definitely right about that. The siblings might have been young in that flashback, but not that young, especially Ninian. It wouldn't be too hard to think of an explaination for them forgetting, like the dragons magicking away traumatic memories similarly to Ike's and Mist's about Greil going feral, but we would need to have a bit more contact with the dragon's world in order to bring that up. Maybe if the three fire dragons at the end of the game were more than just mindless monsters and LEH could communicate with them...

Man, FE7's plot does not get any better if you think too hard about it. :D Too bad, because I really like Elibe's lore in general.

 

[Magical Glace]

I always assumed that Ninian and Nils didn't recognize him easily because he's acting nothing like the Daddy they remember, the brief snippet of Pre-madness!Nergal we get in 19xx behaved quite differently than Nergal in the present.  Also, 1000 years is a long time!  

Regarding Arcadia, I always assumed it and the Dragon Temple in Bern were the only truly safe places for Dragons to be for extended periods of time in Elibe after the air changed, due to prolonged exposure to dragon energies or something.  

Edited September 8, 2017 by Glaceon Mage

[Florina's #1 Fan]

Why must all the parents die? Why can't a main character have living parents? They always freaking die. There should be other ways to motivate characters without killing/taking away their parents.

Spoiler

I would have loved to use Greil in battle, but no, he dies, just when you think he might at least make it to chapter 10.

 

 

[Anacybele]

6 hours ago, Rapier said:

Ike deserves all that praise in FE10 as a result of his actions on FE9, it is not like FE10 Ike exists in a vaccuum without FE9's context behind it. All the people who admire him had their respects earned when Ike was little more than a random sellsword with an attitude. I wish Micaiah had more presence in FE10, but that's entirely the writing's fault for not giving her the spotlight she deserved, not Ike's, (and even then I doubt people wouldn't complain more loudly about her character because they already do) by having her body hijacked by Yune on situations where Micaiah herself could shine and by narrating too many important events that happen simultaneously (even if we take Ike away, the Laguz Alliance War would still take a huge portion of the narrative).

Man, I can't tell you how many times I argue this for RD Ike whenever I see hate for him all because Micaiah didn't get as much spotlight. I think she should have gotten a bit more than she did, but that's no reason to hate RD Ike and you're also correct on how PoR's events justifies all the respect Ike gets in RD.

Anyway, to answer the topic question, I agree with loli dragons. Also healer little sisters. And overshadowed female lords.

But the one I dislike most of all that I also think is overdone is the guy who looks like a girl. And lately it's gotten worse. There are more and more male characters I'm mistaking for females in FE lately. The trope is old and the joke is old. Let it go already.

[NoirCore]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

But the one I dislike most of all that I also think is overdone is the guy who looks like a girl. And lately it's gotten worse. There are more and more male characters I'm mistaking for females in FE lately. The trope is old and the joke is old. Let it go already.

Um, Libra, Lucius, and Forrest are the only three I can think of that play into that trope. o.o And even then, I sorta like somewhat gender-ambiguous designs. :P

But yeah, I'm getting rather bored of the dragon lolis (even though Fae and Myrrh are adorable and Tiki's my favorite FE character in both time periods). The only time IS has ever had playable dragons that weren't little girls were in the Archanea games (poor Bantu is weak, though), the Fates games via the avatar, and the Tellius games. Not really many dragons that are at least young adults; heck, the beasts outside Tellius are more plentiful in that regard.

Also, I want to see dragons less like almighty creatures and more just citizens of the world alongside humans. I don't think FE should really part with their dragon-shifter concept nor do I want them to, but less dragon gods, man.

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

Um, Libra, Lucius, and Forrest are the only three I can think of that play into that trope. o.o And even then, I sorta like somewhat gender-ambiguous designs. :P

There are plenty of other feminine-looking guys in this series besides them. I thought Soren was a girl at first, for instance. I thought Subaki, Izana, and Hisame in Fates were girls too. Though in Subaki's case, it was much shorter lived and due more to his map sprite than anything.

I think Leon in Echoes also looks kind of girly. Not all of them look as much like women as Lucius and Forrest do, but they looked enough like them for me to mistake a lot of them for female.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Anacybele

[NoirCore]

Just now, Anacybele said:

There are plenty of other feminine-looking guys in this series besides them. I thought Soren was a girl at first, for instance. I thought Izana and Hisame in Fates were girls too.

I think Leon in Echoes also looks kind of girly. Not all of them look as much like women as Lucius and Forrest do, but they looked enough like them for me to mistake a lot of them for female.

But those guys don't even play into the "old joke" or "Dude Looks Like a Lady" trope like you say, and while my own account may not be too convincing because I'm using it for my own argument, I correctly assumed their genders at first. I think it may just be a little pet peeve of yours, not necessarily an issue in my opinion. Maybe we could do with more big buff guys to balance stuff out, but yeah.

[vanguard333]

7 hours ago, Rapier said:

Ike deserves all that praise in FE10 as a result of his actions on FE9, it is not like FE10 Ike exists in a vaccuum without FE9's context behind it. All the people who admire him had their respects earned when Ike was little more than a random sellsword with an attitude. I wish Micaiah had more presence in FE10, but that's entirely the writing's fault for not giving her the spotlight she deserved, not Ike's, (and even then I doubt people wouldn't complain more loudly about her character because they already do) by having her body hijacked by Yune on situations where Micaiah herself could shine and by narrating too many important events that happen simultaneously (even if we take Ike away, the Laguz Alliance War would still take a huge portion of the narrative).

Thank you very much. The reverence Ike gets in RD is because he's the hero who saved Tellius in PoR. 

Anyway, I also agree with what people are saying about all the female manaketes that look and act 10 years old. Nagi in Shadow Dragon at least was more of a young woman, and Bantu's there but he doesn't count since he's rubbish. One reason I like the Tellius games is that none of the playable dragon laguz are like that. Ena came the closest physically, but instead acts more like a relatively mature young woman and is even tactically skilled. One thing I was hoping would be great about Fates would be the fact that the main hero is part manakete and had a dragon form. But then the dragon form was plot relevant for all of one chapter and gameplay-wise was rather... situational at best.

Edited September 8, 2017 by vanguard333

[Anacybele]

1 hour ago, NoirCore said:

But those guys don't even play into the "old joke" or "Dude Looks Like a Lady" trope like you say, and while my own account may not be too convincing because I'm using it for my own argument, I correctly assumed their genders at first. I think it may just be a little pet peeve of yours, not necessarily an issue in my opinion. Maybe we could do with more big buff guys to balance stuff out, but yeah.

Okay, then would a desire for more manly-looking male characters make more sense?

[NinjaMonkey]

1 hour ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Why must all the parents die? Why can't a main character have living parents? They always freaking die.

Eliwood is still alive in FE6 (granted he's the only exception to this, but still...).

[Rezzy]

4 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Eliwood is still alive in FE6 (granted he's the only exception to this, but still...).

It's funny that the fact that Eliwood not dying sounds like a bigger spoiler than the par for the course that is all the other parent deaths.  Mikoto dying 5 minutes after meeting her in Fates was a particularly bad example.

[NoirCore]

20 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Okay, then would a desire for more manly-looking male characters make more sense?

Sure, why not. Heck, maybe we should have a buff dragon-shifter in the next game to start balancing out the young dragon girls. It'd be the first since RD, I think. :P

[vanguard333]

21 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Eliwood is still alive in FE6 (granted he's the only exception to this, but still...).

Yes, but he's the only one. Also; isn't he bedridden with illness throughout the game?

 

4 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

Sure, why not. Heck, maybe we should have a buff dragon-shifter in the next game to start balancing out the young dragon girls. It'd be the first since RD, I think. :P

To quote the only buff dragon, "Yes; at once!" Or at least, ones that aren't ancient-looking with rubbish stats. Or maybe a very tall and very lean young man with a longish neck; all to reflect his build as a dragon. 

[Anacybele]

22 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

Sure, why not. Heck, maybe we should have a buff dragon-shifter in the next game to start balancing out the young dragon girls. It'd be the first since RD, I think. :P

I actually made an OC that's pretty much like that. He's a laguz, but still counts as a buff man dragon. Though he's also this story's womanizer. lol

Edited September 8, 2017 by Anacybele

[NinjaMonkey]

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yes, but he's the only one.

I know, and I acknowledged that.

Quote

Also; isn't he bedridden with illness throughout the game?

Being ill still counts as him being alive.