Best Final Chapter in the series

[Jotari]

We've discussed final bosses and final bosses vs final chapters in the past but I can't recall ever having a poll or thread targets exclusively towards the final chapter itself. So here it is, discuss and vote. Because it's the last chapter you use with that army, I've included the end of Gen 1 in Genealogy of Holy War. I've also combined the last two chapters of Sword of Seals so it's in line with the other GBA games and just to give it a chance because that one turn poke of Idoun is not going to hold up against anything else >.>

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jotari

[bethany81707]

I won't speak for Archanea, Jugdral, Ylisse or Moirai, because I either don't remember the maps or never saw them in the first place- and honestly, the two begin to blur.

Gaiden's final map had some good atmosphere, but it kinda felt like there wasn't a lot to it in terms of gruntwork. Jedah, the Medusa mage and Duma make for tough fights, especially cramped together, but I honestly prefer the one boss and his mooks.

I don't think the chain of nothing-but-dragons is any better than the one-turn poke.

Light was a charming setpiece, with tricky bosses, but I'm not entirely sold on the order in which they opened in terms of position. Also, stealth Berserk staves are just rude.

Sacred Stones had a nifty concept that takes into account the concept of attrition Magvel's easy enemies tends to create.

Path of Radiance really felt like an actual climactic battle, which is helped by the way Ashnard treats it. Also adds to its individual buildup to climb the stairs up to Ashnard himself. Honestly, I voted this.

Radiant Dawn's map is not far behind, being the only final boss battle to really tie in to the game's terrain aspect. Honestly, the map's poor aesthetics and lack of other enemies knocks it down- I might've been inclined to cast it the vote if all of Rebirth was counted.

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

I won't speak for Archanea, Jugdral, Ylisse or Moirai, because I either don't remember the maps or never saw them in the first place- and honestly, the two begin to blur.

Gaiden's final map had some good atmosphere, but it kinda felt like there wasn't a lot to it in terms of gruntwork. Jedah, the Medusa mage and Duma make for tough fights, especially cramped together, but I honestly prefer the one boss and his mooks.

I don't think the chain of nothing-but-dragons is any better than the one-turn poke.

Light was a charming setpiece, with tricky bosses, but I'm not entirely sold on the order in which they opened in terms of position. Also, stealth Berserk staves are just rude.

Sacred Stones had a nifty concept that takes into account the concept of attrition Magvel's easy enemies tends to create.

Path of Radiance really felt like an actual climactic battle, which is helped by the way Ashnard treats it. Also adds to its individual buildup to climb the stairs up to Ashnard himself. Honestly, I voted this.

Radiant Dawn's map is not far behind, being the only final boss battle to really tie in to the game's terrain aspect. Honestly, the map's poor aesthetics and lack of other enemies knocks it down- I might've been inclined to cast it the vote if all of Rebirth was counted.

What's Moirai? Tear Ring Saga's continent?

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jotari

[bethany81707]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What's Moirai? Tear Ring Saga's continent?

Nope- though I am more familiar with Tear Ring. It's in the same ballpark as Jugdral, Archanea and Ylisse, but...

It's better than Fates. (I just use whatever I feel like to name that damn place.)

[Magical Glace]

Honestly it's kinda sad the bad end of FE6 ends on a much more satisfying map than the good end.  The Neverending Dream is great... The Truth of the Legend and Beyond the Darkness are not.  The way the backstory/ending is handled is honestly one of the things I wish they'd fix about the game, since dumping exposition on us at the very end in a very boring map isn't fun.

To actually answer the question, Light, I quite liked the boss rush, it was one of the few times in FE7 where the enemies felt like a threat.

[Vince777]

If we're to include Tearring Saga,  I might give it the palm.

A final chapter on a timer before entire destruction where all legendary sword wielding heroes converge to try to defeat an invincible enemy with a lot of units (and locked doors...) to slow you down.

 Felt pretty epic.

If not, I'd give to Path of Radiance.

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Vince777

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Honestly it's kinda sad the bad end of FE6 ends on a much more satisfying map than the good end.  The Neverending Dream is great... The Truth of the Legend and Beyond the Darkness are not.  The way the backstory/ending is handled is honestly one of the things I wish they'd fix about the game, since dumping exposition on us at the very end in a very boring map isn't fun.

To actually answer the question, Light, I quite liked the boss rush, it was one of the few times in FE7 where the enemies felt like a threat.

The Neverending Dream certainly gets my vote for best chapter name in the series!

1 hour ago, bethany81707 said:

Nope- though I am more familiar with Tear Ring. It's in the same ballpark as Jugdral, Archanea and Ylisse, but...

It's better than Fates. (I just use whatever I feel like to name that damn place.)

I still don't know what you mean by Morai. Are you saying it's the Fate's continent?

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jotari

[Armagon]

Hmm. I can't anwser for any of the Tellius games or Thracia, as i'm currently playing through Path of Radiance right now and i dropped Thracia, but i think i'm gonna have to go with Together to the End, although admittedly, that's mostly because of the music. The battle itself is fine though.

Chosen by Fate is pretty straightforward.

Light and Shadow had you rescue the four Clerics before Medeus eats them, so in a sense, it's the darkest final chapter.

FE4's final chapters both suffer the problem that plagues the game: the maps are way too big. And story wise, The Last Holy War kinda falls apart considering that Manfoy basically gives the heroes the win.

Binding Blade's final chapter is too easy. Way too easy.

Light is harder, at least with Nergal. The Fire Dragon gets solo'd by Luna-wielding Athos with a crit.

Sacred Stone is easy but it's still harder than Binding Blade's final chapter.

Grima can be ended in one turn.

All Fates final chapters suck because, if you fail, you're forced to go back to Ch.27. It's not as bad in Birthright and Revelation, but it's really frustrating in Conquest.

 

[Nobody]

I tend to dislike most final chapters in the series. IDK, they feel different from the rest of the game, with Revelation-tier gimmicks and enemies with inflated stats. Thracia has the doors thing that I dislike, in FE6 you have to go thorugh many curridors, which is annoying, in FE7 you have the doors that open one at a turn (though I like Light tbh), FE8 is innofensive but nothing special, though it does show the patterns I'm talking about, FE9's is IMO a bit boring, I find FE10's annoying with all the "souls" things and Ashera's AoE attack, FE11's is a bit annoying to deal with, with all the ballistaes and locked rooms, I hate FE12's 'talk with all maidens' thing, FE13's is an empty field with infinite reinforcements, BR's is simple, CQ's is brutal in a bad way, RV's is actually decent for a change, SoV's is okay.

I like FE4's because it's more like a regular map in that game.

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Honestly it's kinda sad the bad end of FE6 ends on a much more satisfying map than the good end.  The Neverending Dream is great... The Truth of the Legend and Beyond the Darkness are not.  The way the backstory/ending is handled is honestly one of the things I wish they'd fix about the game, since dumping exposition on us at the very end in a very boring map isn't fun.

IMO that's because The Neverending Dream  isn't really supposed to be a "final" chapter, so Intelligent Systems designed it as they would design a regular late game chapter, rather than as a final chapter.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Nobody

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I still don't know what you mean by Morai. Are you saying it's the Fate's continent?

Fateslandia lacks an official name as is painfully well known. But because saying "Nohr and Hoshido" all the time is tediously long, and Fateslandia sounds like a theme park, the unofficial fan-name Morai is used by some, in reference to the Moriae- the three sisters of fate in Greek mythology. Fan names sometimes find widespread use among the fans, like with the Colossi in Shadow of the Colossus, saying the 2nd or 11th Colossi all the time isn't appealing to some, so they've invented fake Latin names for them.

 

In terms of final chapter or set of final chapters, from what I've played, I'd say CQ has the best designed final map. But it has the inability to save after 27, which is very annoying since 28 is a rather challenging map. In terms of narrative, RD with its 5 battle finale loaded with drama and plot revelations is best.

I'll agree FE final battles are rarely the best designed of chapters. But it's excusable to some degree so as long as they look and feel epic or intimidating.

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Fateslandia lacks an official name as is painfully well known. But because saying "Nohr and Hoshido" all the time is tediously long, and Fateslandia sounds like a theme park, the unofficial fan-name Morai is used by some, in reference to the Moriae- the three sisters of fate in Greek mythology. Fan names sometimes find widespread use among the fans, like with the Colossi in Shadow of the Colossus, saying the 2nd or 11th Colossi all the time isn't appealing to some, so they've invented fake Latin names for them.

 

In terms of final chapter or set of final chapters, from what I've played, I'd say CQ has the best designed final map. But it has the inability to save after 27, which is very annoying since 28 is a rather challenging map. In terms of narrative, RD with its 5 battle finale loaded with drama and plot revelations is best.

I'll agree FE final battles are rarely the best designed of chapters. But it's excusable to some degree so as long as they look and feel epic or intimidating.

Ah. What I guessed. Thing about those fannames is that they need to be pretty well known before they can be thrown out without context like that (though maybe this one is and I'm just behind the times).

I'm going to make my own suggestion on the matter. We should combine the names of Hoshido and Nohr. Hohr...Whore.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jotari

[SullyMcGully]

I prefer Light. It has this whole "look how far we've come, look what we're fighting for" kind of feel to it. It keeps you in the story; you aren't mad at Nergal because he's the big red guy, you're mad at him because of all the good people who are dead because of him. And while Ninian's resurrection is poorly handled, Ninian's death in the first place is really pointless. What would be awesome, though,  is if Nergal used the last of his remaining strength to revive Ninian... but that's all from a story perspective. Gameplay wise, the boss gauntlet is pretty challenging, Nergal is fairly threatening, and the only reason the Fire Dragon goes down easy is because Luna is OP, not because the dragon is weak.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, SullyMcGully said:

I prefer Light. It has this whole "look how far we've come, look what we're fighting for" kind of feel to it. It keeps you in the story; you aren't mad at Nergal because he's the big red guy, you're mad at him because of all the good people who are dead because of him. And while Ninian's resurrection is poorly handled, Ninian's death in the first place is really pointless. What would be awesome, though,  is if Nergal used the last of his remaining strength to revive Ninian... but that's all from a story perspective. Gameplay wise, the boss gauntlet is pretty challenging, Nergal is fairly threatening, and the only reason the Fire Dragon goes down easy is because Luna is OP, not because the dragon is weak.

Dragon goes down easily with or without Luna. The game gives you several dragon slaying weapons that will tear through it in three or four hits. Presuming you bothered to train any of your lords that is. Sure it might hit back reasonably hard but it's super slow so it has very little chance of actually killing your units. Just rescue canto away and its helpless since it doesn't move and has no way of attacking outside its range. The Druids that spawn from the stairs are probably more of a threat than the fire dragon.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dragon goes down easily with or without Luna. The game gives you several dragon slaying weapons that will tear through it in three or four hits. Presuming you bothered to train any of your lords that is. Sure it might hit back reasonably hard but it's super slow so it has very little chance of actually killing your units.

Not quite, exactly. Eliwood needs at least 19 Speed to avoid being doubled because the Durandal inflicts 7AS loss. He does hit hard with it though, at most dealing 66 Atk -40 Def = 26 damage once without Filla's Might or supports. He can double that if he caps Speed and uses a Body Ring. Lyn is at most looking at 48 Atk, for 8x2 damage without Filla's Might and supports. Hector's stronger weapon and higher Strength cap gives him the same 66 Atk as Eliwood despite the no +5 Str on the weapon, and his Speed cap is the same, but he has enough Con to not need Body Rings to double the Dragon.

Athos needs no training though and can smash the dragon with Luna, Aureola or Forblaze. Athos deals 30 per Luna hit (with a Body Ring he can double on Normal, might need a Speedwing too on Hard). Forblaze deals 18 per hit (the FD has 40 Res) and Aureola 20. On Hard, the dragon has slim chance of having 20 Str and thus OHKOing Athos, but keeping a backup Angelic Robe or just replaying the Nergal fight (it isn't that hard) can fix this.

Everyone else has a much harder time with the dragon, since only Lucius, Serra, and Canas can use dragon-effective Aureola or Res negating Luna. The S rank weapons are strong, but lacking an effective bonus they deal far less damage. Filla's Might can help with this though.

The Demon King is easier than this by the way, since everyone can use a Sacred Twin and Myrrh has her Dragonstone.

[Dayni]

4 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

Moirai

I was trying to remember that nickname! Thanks, I've been using Nohrhido because I couldn't remember it.

I'll just put some thoughts 

Spoiler

Chosen by Fate (Shadow Dragon): This might be one of the better maps. At least, it tries harder than most. Your party is split up (How?), you've got to get past a series of doors, the enemies are honestly not particularly weak. It might break you if you're not careful. Medeus is also considered tough here, enough so that Marth gets eaten alive in SD's highest difficulties.

Together to the End (Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia): I honestly like this map. Thing is, I like Duma the most out of it, so the mostly generic enemies alongside Chedah don't really make much of an impact. But they are tricky in Hard Mode, there's the element of uniting your parties and clearing the way to get to Duma.

Light and Shadow (Mystery of the Emblem): DRAGONS the map. An endless wave of dragons and you have to go and talk to the clerics unless you want them to die, leaving units exposed to wave of dragons. I'm not too hot on this map, though it does try to make it more than just a chamber with the boss.

Doors of Destiny (Genealogy of Holy War, Gen 1): I really like this map, despite the severe issues this map has in particular. The story for the map's pretty good even before the end, and it's got escalation as you finally face holy weapons. It's a shame so much of the map is desert. Somehow, a great track can forgive a lot of problems.

The Last Holy War (Genealogy of the Holy War, Gen 2): The map's a series of large skirmishes as you work your way to Julius and the enemies get tougher as you go, eventually leading to the deadlords and Julius himself. Of course there are issues in the story (Manfroy just hands you your victory: if he'd left that would be another story) in some events and how it's presented (SO. MUCH. EXPOSITION.)

An Undying Oath (Thracia 776): This map kills... you. Veld might be a joke of a final boss, but the rest of the map is a case of trying your hardest to break into six rooms and take the deadlords on each space out. If you manage that, there are even more enemies defending Veld and his stone tome to deal with. It's about as lowkey as you'd expect for this game on story, bu gameplay is tense and I like it..

The Truth of the Legend/Beyond the Darkness (Sword of Seals): If I'm being strict, Beyond the Darkness as the final map might be fitting, but Idoun is a joke of a fight with the Binding Blade. You also are quite likely to still have dragonslaying equipment, so it's not exactly any harder with the generics, is it?

Light (Blazing Blade): I'd also count only the second part here and.... Well, I just recommend Luna. Canas and Athos do more damage than anything else, sad to say. Story wise, a dragon just said hello and you have to stop it. So for Elibe, I say this is the better gameplay, but BB has the more tragic story.

Sacred Stone (The Sacred Stones): Another one where if I'm being strict it's a bit too easy. Doesn't help that you can reach the boss on the first turn unassisted. As well as all the effective weapons.

Repatriation (Path of Radiance) & Rebirth V (Radiant Dawn): Never played/10. 

Grima (Awakening): This one is pretty generic sadly. I mean, you're on top of a dragon and you don't take advantage of that. Can't really pick this, especially with how easy this can be. I mean the enemy can swarm quite quickly, but Grima can bite the dust quite quickly.

Dawn Breaks Through (Fates: Birthright): It's doable in 1 turn. Sure, bit harder than Idoun, but I can't really observe the map design when I can beat the map with 4 units near the top of the map.

Night Breaks Throught (Fates: Conquest): It's not as bad as the other routes in Fates. You have a bunch of powerful enemies in the way of the final boss, who is also not kidding. You actually have to use the dragon veins effectively to prevent an area attack. However, it's also very easy to be quickly frustrated by it and the map might not end well.

Anankos (Fates Revelations): Tedium: the boss. Sure, Ananankos having a buttload of HP makes for a longer fight, but it's not fun. You move Corrin from place to place and try to get the arms (feet?) first, before having to rush back to go and fight the next two phases again. It's just not fun to me.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Dayni

[Jotari]

My thoughts on each of the final chapters

Shadow Dragon: I've done this chapter legitimately but it's such a bore that I very rarely feel like doing anything but warp skipping it. The winding corridors and alternately opening/locking doors and split up army just doesn't do it for me.

Gaiden: It's a bit featureless aesthetically but I really like this one. The three really powerful enemies (one of which is called Bad Ass XD) coming up your rear forces forward progression and Jedah in the center with the constantly spawning moguls make a good threat. Finally, Doma actually moves, attacks long range and is flanked by troublesome enemies making him hard to approach. Excellent chapter overall. Definitely top 3.

Mystery of the Emblem: Only played this once on the remake. Seems to encourage a warp skip with saving the maidens. Would like to try again and do it properly but emulating DS games just doesn't feel enjoyable to me for some reason.

Genealogy of Holy War: I like the atmosphere of Door to Destiny and Reptor makes for a good final challenge with his absolutely hacked stat caps. Also just has a lot going on with Quan's death and Aida's betrayal, getting the tyfring etc. The actual final chapter is decent. More of a puzzle than anything else but I think it works. The final assault from Ishtar is pretty good. I think that's when Areone tries to steal your home base too.

Thracia: What I voted for in the poll. You'd think from looking at it that it'd be a straight forward and pretty easy chapter to deal with but the dead lords hit hard and you have to be very careful about how you deal with them. I'd like maybe some kind of time limit to put a bit more pressure on the player but overall I just find it really well constructed. Veld being a pushover isn't even that big a deal since you don't necessarily want a final boss that can mess you up after all that work it takes to get to him. And to be fair, Veld does manage to be genuinely threatening with Stone so killing him quickly is kind of essential.

Sword of Seals: Even with the Yahn chapter it's probably the most boring and bland final chapter in the franchise. Just endless powerful enemies but in small enough numbers and without any kind of strategic movement that you can manage with them easily.

Blazing Blade: I like powerful low density enemies and this chapter delivers on that. It's a rush to deal with each set of opponents before too many are released from their cages at once and overwhelm you. Unfortunately though I think the game just hands you too many easy ways of dealing with them. Athos comes and gives you all these legendary weapons, that's sort of fine, plot stuff. But then almost every enemy you defeat hands over an S ranked weapon. That stuff needs to be paced out. I can't have fun using Rex Hasta when there's only a dozen enemies left in the game to use it on. And I don't feel rewarded in anyway for cautious use of my resource. You just get a load of free powerful stuff that makes the chapter easy.

Sacred Stones: Pretty eh map. I mean it's good but it's just two alternate routes with Lyon in the middle (wait a second, was that meant to be a metaphor for the game entirely with its twin protagonists? If so that's brilliant but the map is still pretty eh).

Path of Radiance: Pretty great map. Powerful enemies and nice use of terrain to naturally split your army up. Sucks that you have to play the hardest difficulty to properly fight the final boss though. They could have at least even made Ashnard move on normal instead of just sitting there.

Radiant Dawn: Highly praised final boss for a reason. Dealing with the auras is a carefully laid plan. Your own power gets turned against you and if you hesitate too long and go too cautiously, then Ashera will devastate you with her map attacks.

Awakening: Basically doesn't even exist as a map. The game practically tells you to two round it and they don't make that feet particularly challenging.

Birthright: They seem to have some kind of equivalent of Mystery of the Emblem's maiden thing going on here and a big map but in practice it's just run up and kill Garon.

Conquest: This one also hits by top three alongside Gaiden and Thracia. Takumi manages to be an active threat with his era of effect attack. The enemy placements are really good. You can lure and bait them in different ways to try and deal with them effectively. Good use of terrain and reinforcements pincer attack you and force your forward momentum. Every turn on this map feels preplanned by the developers. Has a really nice sense of flow to it. Only think I'd take out is that one enemy with a hexing rod since that's just too serious a block. The only way to really by pass it is waste it with one of your weaker units or blitz the chapter. It's good for halting your movement but should be a long range enemy instead of something as broken as the Hexing Rid.

Revelations: Anankos makes for a nice looking boss and works good on paper. But in principle this chapter is kind of a pushover. A like the Heirs of Fate version much more.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not quite, exactly. Eliwood needs at least 19 Speed to avoid being doubled because the Durandal inflicts 7AS loss. He does hit hard with it though, at most dealing 66 Atk -40 Def = 26 damage once without Filla's Might or supports. He can double that if he caps Speed and uses a Body Ring. Lyn is at most looking at 48 Atk, for 8x2 damage without Filla's Might and supports. Hector's stronger weapon and higher Strength cap gives him the same 66 Atk as Eliwood despite the no +5 Str on the weapon, and his Speed cap is the same, but he has enough Con to not need Body Rings to double the Dragon.

Athos needs no training though and can smash the dragon with Luna, Aureola or Forblaze. Athos deals 30 per Luna hit (with a Body Ring he can double on Normal, might need a Speedwing too on Hard). Forblaze deals 18 per hit (the FD has 40 Res) and Aureola 20. On Hard, the dragon has slim chance of having 20 Str and thus OHKOing Athos, but keeping a backup Angelic Robe or just replaying the Nergal fight (it isn't that hard) can fix this.

Everyone else has a much harder time with the dragon, since only Lucius, Serra, and Canas can use dragon-effective Aureola or Res negating Luna. The S rank weapons are strong, but lacking an effective bonus they deal far less damage. Filla's Might can help with this though.

The Demon King is easier than this by the way, since everyone can use a Sacred Twin and Myrrh has her Dragonstone.

Eliwood having 19 speed is not particularly difficult. His average speed is 23 at 20/20. You can get a speed screwed Eliwood but that's missing more than five procs by average. Which isn't all that likely. And if your Eliwood is getting speed screwed that much then you should be fixing it with speed or body rings. Of course maybe you don't have Eliwood trainedup all that much if your playing Hector mode and promoted Lyn first but that's still two more lords more than able to deal with it. And Lyn has a pretty great crit chance at it if I recall. But that's all irrelevant. The point is that because it doesn't move and has no other means of attack (and barely any other enemies), the Fire Dragon lacks anyway of actually killing your units. You throw your unit at the dragon, take some damage and then heal or rescue them. Rinse and repeat and he's dead in a handful of turns with absolutely no risk. The Demon King they at least tried to make more interesting with summoning enemies and multiple attacks but his stats are so pathetic that it doesn't make a difference.

[Skyla]

Rebirth easily!

Radiant dawn had the BEST end game ever. In my opinion of course.

It's fun fighting bosses who don't go down in one turn. Plus Dheginsea and Ashara were so damn intense.

[Shadow Mir]

29 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Eliwood having 19 speed is not particularly difficult. His average speed is 23 at 20/20. You can get a speed screwed Eliwood but that's missing more than five procs by average. Which isn't all that likely. And if your Eliwood is getting speed screwed that much then you should be fixing it with speed or body rings. Of course maybe you don't have Eliwood trainedup all that much if your playing Hector mode and promoted Lyn first but that's still two more lords more than able to deal with it. And Lyn has a pretty great crit chance at it if I recall. But that's all irrelevant. The point is that because it doesn't move and has no other means of attack (and barely any other enemies), the Fire Dragon lacks anyway of actually killing your units. You throw your unit at the dragon, take some damage and then heal or rescue them. Rinse and repeat and he's dead in a handful of turns with absolutely no risk. The Demon King they at least tried to make more interesting with summoning enemies and multiple attacks but his stats are so pathetic that it doesn't make a difference.

Except Lyn NEEDS a crit to do anything resembling damage to the Fire Dragon (and the Dragon does have rather high Luck, at 24). So I'd discount her from doing anything to it, since her max damage potential is a pathetic 8 without assistance (to put it into perspective, her 20/20 average is 21 Strength, which is only 5 damage). Also, she gets 20 crit max against the Dragon (14 from skill +25 from Sol Katti + 5 from S rank bonus). That's not enough for me to bank on...

Edited November 24, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Troykv]

3 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Honestly it's kinda sad the bad end of FE6 ends on a much more satisfying map than the good end.  The Neverending Dream is great... The Truth of the Legend and Beyond the Darkness are not.  The way the backstory/ending is handled is honestly one of the things I wish they'd fix about the game, since dumping exposition on us at the very end in a very boring map isn't fun.

To actually answer the question, Light, I quite liked the boss rush, it was one of the few times in FE7 where the enemies felt like a threat.

Wait wait... I have played FE6 for years and just now I noticed the Chapter 22's name? ... Never ending Dream... It feels weird to have a chapter named like that considering certain thing done not so long ago.

____

Anyway, FE5 has the most challenging and fun final chapter in my opinion.

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except Lyn NEEDS a crit to do anything resembling damage to the Fire Dragon (and the Dragon does have rather high Luck, at 24). So I'd discount her from doing anything to it, since her max damage potential is a pathetic 8 without assistance (to put it into perspective, her 20/20 average is 21 Strength, which is only 5 damage). Also, she gets 20 crit max against the Dragon (14 from skill +25 from Sol Katti + 5 from S rank bonus). That's not enough for me to bank on...

Times two because she will almost certainly be doubling the dragon. That's not enough to bank on but the fact is you don't need to bank on it. The dragon is a completely safe enemy to fight. You throw Lyn at it, she does a measly 10 damage. Rescue her, canto away and heal her. Same turn, you throw Eliwood at it. Do the same thing. Then you send Hector at it. By this point you can probably finish it off with Athos with a 100% hit attack even if the dragon can one shot Athos. And if you can't you simply heal Hector with physic and leave him there to counterattack on enemy phase. Then you just rinse and repeat. There's no risk, no threat, just pounding at it with no pressure until it's dead. The long range mages don't even show up until like turn three or four. Just because Lyn doesn't one shot the dragon, doesn't mean it's not super easy. The fire dragon doesn't actually do anything at all. It just sits there and attacks. It's not hard to weather that attack and thus not hard to take down in the slightest.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Times two because she will almost certainly be doubling the dragon. That's not enough to bank on but the fact is you don't need to bank on it. The dragon is a completely safe enemy to fight. You throw Lyn at it, she does a measly 10 damage. Rescue her, canto away and heal her. Same turn, you throw Eliwood at it. Do the same thing. Then you send Hector at it. By this point you can probably finish it off with Athos with a 100% hit attack even if the dragon can one shot Athos. And if you can't you simply heal Hector with physic and leave him there to counterattack on enemy phase. Then you just rinse and repeat. There's no risk, no threat, just pounding at it with no pressure until it's dead. The long range mages don't even show up until like turn three or four. Just because Lyn doesn't one shot the dragon, doesn't mean it's not super easy. The fire dragon doesn't actually do anything at all. It just sits there and attacks. It's not hard to weather that attack and thus not hard to take down in the slightest.

Except it's precisely BECAUSE she doesn't do anything of note to it that I'm better off looking to someone else, primarily Hector (assuming no Luna use).

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except it's precisely BECAUSE she doesn't do anything of note to it that I'm better off looking to someone else, primarily Hector (assuming no Luna use).

Well yeah, Hectors your best bet but I'm not even sure what you're arguing now because I was never claiming Lyn is the best unit to solo the dragon. Just that it's a poor boss that goes down like a chump in about two turns with even a half decent army.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well yeah, Hectors your best bet but I'm not even sure what you're arguing now because I was never claiming Lyn is the best unit to solo the dragon. Just that it's a poor boss that goes down like a chump in about two turns.

Which is only really true if you cheese it with Luna - other than that, you only have one viable lord option to do damage. Lucius, Serra and Athos can also do some damage to it, but anyone else is pretty much out of luck.

[Refa]

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The Demon King they at least tried to make more interesting with summoning enemies and multiple attacks but his stats are so pathetic that it doesn't make a difference.

Demon King has pretty good stats actually, and the game doesn't give you a super overpowered unit who can deal w/him w/o any effort on your part (Myrrh is the closest equivalent, but you still need to invest some time/resources into her and not waste her only weapon).  Anyways...

FE1/FE3 Book 1/FE11: Good map.  Your army being split means that you'll have a much easier time if you actually trained up a full team of units, especially considering all of the enemies are pretty tough in their own right (moreso in the higher difficulties of FE11, of course).  This means that every unit you deploy (more or less) will serve a valuable function, with even thieves being useful due to the opening/closing door mechanic.  Honestly, the door mechanic is kind of a dick move, but the map is mostly straightforward beyond that (with reinforcement zones being clearly telegraphed).  Like many other maps in the game, it can easily be warpskipped, but that's more an issue with the Warp staff than the final map in particular.  I really appreciate the atmosphere, as the music and visuals (at least in FE11 for the latter) really give the impression that you're out of your depth here.  Medeus' warped battle theme (moreso in the original) helps with this as well.

FE2/FE15: Okay map.  I like how both of your parties combine for the final map, and there are some threatening enemies both nearby Alm and near Duma.  However, when the primary enemy type is Mogall (not the most fun enemy to deal with), it tends to get monotonous after the first few turns and before the last few turns.  There's nothing particularly wrong with it, though.  The hardest part is killing Jedah, although he doesn't attack you and is otherwise optional, so the only benefit you get from this is killing all of his summoned Mogalls (in the original, this also killed Duma's summoned Mogalls for whatever reason).  Like with Shadow Dragon, the game nails it musically (moreso in the remake), reprising a theme you only heard in short bursts before (at least in the original, I don't remember if it was ever heard in the remake).  Visually, though, it's not as interesting, because it's similar to the Chapter 4 Celica swamp maps with nothing distinct enough to help it stand out.

FE3 Book 2/FE12: Unmemorable Map.  I've only played this in FE3 (and that was once, long ago) and it seemed really easy to me (maybe because I had a lot of my staves barely used in my inventory).  At least it has a nice build up with the previous maps beforehand.  If all of the final maps were included as the final map (which makes sense, because they're all done in succession in the original FE3), then it'd be a lot better off.  Kudos for having a great atmosphere and final map theme, though.  In the previous maps, you're fighting against an oppressive force in a forgotten part of the world, and the game nails that impression while still being more upbeat than Shadow Dragon (because at this point, you've gone through so much that you're not really out of your depth anymore).  Then the final map itself has this weirdly hollow theme, which bookends things perfectly.

FE4: Good map.  It has a great sense of build up towards the final conflict with Julius, but still manages to throw a curveball or two at you with the multiple Axe Knight squads, Scorpio's group attempting to intercept you from south, and Areonne's ambush.  Fails to stick the landing with the Velthomer bit, because it's not a very engaging portion of the game (especially after the Deadlords and Ishtar), but otherwise I don't really have any issues with it.  Something else I also appreciate is that it's easy to make use out of all of your units, but you're not required to do so (great for drafters, LTCers, or people with a lot of screwed characters).  The final map theme uses elements from the prologue map theme and the Chapter 6 one, which is pretty brilliant thematically.  It also has this climactic feeling story wise which helps add to my enjoyment of the map (even though I don't read the story on subsequent playthroughs).

FE5: Never played.

FE6: Bad map.  Like others have said, it's extremely easy to trivialize without much thought or even resource management on your part.  The atmosphere or music aren't particularly great either, so there's nothing I particularly like about this map.  It was enjoyable to watch in Dondon's run, at least.  Idoun is a joke all things considered, don't know why they made the true final boss such a push over.

FE7: Okay map.  It echoes FE5's final map but in a more confined area.  All of the revived Black Fang are fairly tough opponents, although not oppressive to deal with (I think some of the enemies should have been less weighed down by their weapons, but otherwise I can't see any improvements being made on their quality without them being obnoxious).  Sadly, the music and visuals are not particularly interesting, so it fails to reach the greater heights of some of the previously discussed maps.  The fire dragon by all means should be formidable (a 39 damage attack that pierces DEF is crazy) but is easily trivialized by tools the game just hands to you (Athos and his tomes).

FE8: Unmemorable map.  Unlike previous final maps, this one is straightforward to a boring degree.  There's nothing to trip you up, nothing to really test your tactical prowess, and nothing super interesting thematically.  Lyon and the Demon King are given a bad rap for being too easy (and Lyon should definitely be faster), but they're fairly tough when you're playing fast.  Atmosphere is improved from the past two games (it improves upon the invading the enemies' sanctuary that the past two games had), but still nothing to boast about.  

FE9: Okay map.  Disclaimer: I have not played Maniac Mode to completion, so I am talking about Hard Mode here.  It basically feels like a normal map with all of the stops pulled out.  What's holding it back is that the enemies don't feel as strong as they should, being more bulky than actually threatening (which is emblematic of the game as a whole, heyoooo).  Additionally, there's nothing that really makes you have to think on the fly or makes the map harder than it initially looks.  To make matters worse, it can easily be soloed by an average Ike w/Resolve + Wrath, which is just sad.  I haven't played this map on Maniac granted, but that's my impression here.  At least the music elevates it, giving it a more climactic feeling to clash with the more personal and ominous battle with the Black Knight, which is appropriate as this is the resolution to the story as opposed to just Ike's character arc (which is what the Black Knight fight was).  The atmosphere itself is interesting for being an open battle in Crimea castle, which is almost refreshing considering the past few games' final maps were a bit samey (and inspired by FE3).

FE10: Okay map.  Considering we're just assuming the final map itself, it's more appropriate to say it's an interesting boss fight but little else.  I appreciate how puzzle like the encounter is and it does make for a harder final boss than any other FE game, but it doesn't even compare to the full fledged maps of previous and future games (after all, this is a tactical RPG, not a traditional one).  The stakes are high and the music complements that.  Visually, though, I remember it being uninteresting, although it has been a while.

FE13: Bad map.  It's a hallway with infinitely spawning reinforcements on the sides, which doesn't make for a particularly interesting experience.  A huge waste of the setting, which takes place on a freaking dragon's back.  Could have been so much cooler than it ended up being.  At least the music is fantastic.

FE14 Conquest: Bad map.  Okay, well it's actually got a lot going for it.  For one thing, it's actually challenging, which a lot of FE games fail to deliver upon.  Secondly, it's challenging because it makes you think, not because of inflated enemy stats.  Secondly, I really like how Takumi is the final boss (even though he's technically possessed, you had been fighting him throughout the entire game, so it's a nice book end).  It comes out of nowhere, and it's great.  And as usual with FE14 final map themes, this one is great as well and really gets you with a THIS IS THE END FRIEND sort of feeling.  HOWEVER, all of that is undercut by two very detrimental things.  First of all, portions of it straight up are unfair, or at least impossible to accurately deal with on your first run (Takumi's AoE attack, reinforcements, fucking Enfeeble staves); it gets even worse if you haven't been hoarding staves or using certain characters.  This is exacerbated by the second problem, with which if you don't beat it on your first go, you're booted back to the previous map because that's fun.

FE14 Birthright: Bad map.  You can ignore most of the map by just gunning for the final boss who is right next to you, which is inherently bad map design.  Also, why is Garon a dragon?  Shouldn't they have elaborated on this more?  It'd be a lot more interesting if they had.  Additionally, it has the same problem as Conquest's of not letting you save after the previous map (which is a lot longer than Conquest's equivalent, by the way)...at least the final map is easier on Birthright, although that's not a good thing.  The music is good, if nothing else.

FE14 Revelations: Bad map.  The dumpster fire plot takes center stage here, making it hard to actually get invested in the final boss battle (while Birthright and Conquest had similarly bad plots, at least Conquest managed to make the final map interesting thematically regardless).  So it's not getting helped there.  At least the music is good?  Shame that it's a fairly boring slog that doesn't really engage the player on any meaningful level.

So my rankings in order are FE4 > FE1 >> FE2 > FE7 > FE10 > FE9 >> FE3 > FE8 >> FE6 > Conquest > FE13 > Birthright > Revelations.