Who's your favorite FE Antagonist?

[Lewyn]

7 hours ago, Dreamyboi said:

I just keep hearing great things about him, can't wait to play FE4 after I scrape everything else off my mile long to do list.

Oh man I don't want to overhype it, but is is on my very short list of greatest video games of all time.  IMO the greatest turn based strategy RPG of all time as well.  It made such an incredible impression on me, to the point only a few games have matched.  

 

[DragonFlames]

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

Oh man I don't want to overhype it, but is is on my very short list of greatest video games of all time.  IMO the greatest turn based strategy RPG of all time as well.  It made such an incredible impression on me, to the point only a few games have matched.  

 

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about Stella Glow.

More on topic: I wanted to add something to my original statement of feeling little to no sympathy for characters like Sephiran or Zelgius: I didn't mean to imply that they are bad antagonists by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I quite like both of them. I just can't exactly bring myself to feel sorry for them because of the things they did under the pretence of their morals being "good".
Just wanted to make that clear.

Edited March 20, 2018 by DragonFlames

[Lewyn]

37 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about Stella Glow.

 

I had to look up that game.  Oh I did play Luminous Arc 1 and 2 and enjoyed them.  Could you elaborate why Stella Glow is so special to you?  I'm interested, and am always up for a good SRPG, though I'm currently in the middle of Tear ring Saga.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Lewyn said:

I had to look up that game.  Oh I did play Luminous Arc 1 and 2 and enjoyed them.  Could you elaborate why Stella Glow is so special to you?  I'm interested, and am always up for a good SRPG, though I'm currently in the middle of Tear ring Saga.

Hey, I played Luminous Arc 1 and 2 as well. I preferred 1's characters more though. Arc 2 felt way too harem baity.

[bottlegnomes]

Ashnard by far. His design is awesome, and he's the one villain I can truly get behind hating but also respect. He's out of his mind, but he's also quite cunning and tactical. Those tactics may not seem logical to others, but in his own twisted, and yet justifiable, worldview they make complete sense. He also doubles down on his own philosophy and welcomes his death knowing that it was at the hands of someone stronger.

@DragonFlames I'd argue he is actually somewhat morally justifiable. His core philosophy is rather admirable. It's not even just might makes right, but that people should stand on their own merits, be that through cunning, brute force, or whatever means they want to. He opted force with some cunning and takes it to a literally insane extreme, but the basis is reasonable.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Oh man I don't want to overhype it, but is is on my very short list of greatest video games of all time.  IMO the greatest turn based strategy RPG of all time as well.  It made such an incredible impression on me, to the point only a few games have matched.  

 

Not to derail the thread or anything but while FE4's story is good, i found it's gameplay to be abysmal, making it one of the worse games in the series for me. I can always ignore a bad story but it's impossible to ignore bad gameplay.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

ANYWAY, i want to add Berkut and Idoun to my list of favorite villains. Berkut was a bit underdeveloped but he had a great design and a masterpiece of a voice. That "lies lies lies" line sends shivers down my spine. Ian Sinclair did an amazing job with Berkut. Idoun because i just feel sorry for her. She's an absolute joke of a final boss but her backstory is just sad. Unlike other sympathetic characters like Zelgius, all of the stuff Idoun did was against her own will because she had her soul forcibly shattered.

[Lewyn]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Hey, I played Luminous Arc 1 and 2 as well. I preferred 1's characters more though. Arc 2 felt way too harem baity.

Yeah I preferred one as well, Arc 2 was too fan servicey for my taste and I don't think the gameplay was better either.  There was a 3rd Luminous arc I think but it was Japan only. 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Lewyn said:

Yeah I preferred one as well, Arc 2 was too fan servicey for my taste and I don't think the gameplay was better either.  There was a 3rd Luminous arc I think but it was Japan only. 

Mhm. I felt there was a much more solid story in it and had a wider variety of character development that felt much more lacking in Arc 2, cause there it felt tied only to a few side characters at best, while Arc 1 had almost every character get a chance to develop. 

It is, which is a damn shame too. I guess Arc 2 just didn't sell well enough. It was the closest game to Fire Emblem, minus permadeath.

[Lewyn]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Not to derail the thread or anything but while FE4's story is good, i found it's gameplay to be abysmal, making it one of the worse games in the series for me. I can always ignore a bad story but it's impossible to ignore bad gameplay.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Heresy!  I'm more about gameplay than anything else, after all we are playing video games. If we wanted great stories there are many literary classics of which few if any games can compare in quality.  I loved the giant maps, I loved the skill system making every character different (first game with skill system), introduction of the weapon triangle, all the legendary blood bonuses, being able to field every character on every map rather than being forced to choose and thus ignore some of them, how the arena was simply in the castles and thus easy to access, the pair bonuses and marriage system, and all accompanied what is IMO the greatest soundtrack of the series (Fates comes somewhat close).  

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Lewyn said:

Heresy!  I'm more about gameplay than anything else, after all we are playing video games. If we wanted great stories there are many literary classics of which few if any games can compare in quality.  I loved the giant maps, I loved the skill system making every character different (first game with skill system), introduction of the weapon triangle, all the legendary blood bonuses, being able to field every character on every map rather than being forced to choose and thus ignore some of them, how the arena was simply in the castles and thus easy to access, the pair bonuses and marriage system, and all accompanied what is IMO the greatest soundtrack of the series (Fates comes somewhat close).  

Ehh... I'll be honest, I'm kind of with @Armagon on this one. I really found the gameplay of Genealogy to be extremely tedious, and took way too long. Plus, it really focused much more on cavalry units being superior because of the huge map that demanded that you rush in with your high movement units over your infantry units because of the villages being pillaged. 

Plus, let's not forget how they also make trading weapons be so ridiculous, where you have to sell your equipment and then have the other character buy it. And gold are independent to the units. 

[Armagon]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ehh... I'll be honest, I'm kind of with @Armagon on this one. I really found the gameplay of Genealogy to be extremely tedious, and took way too long. Plus, it really focused much more on cavalry units being superior because of the huge map that demanded that you rush in with your high movement units over your infantry units because of the villages being pillaged. 

Plus, let's not forget how they also make trading weapons be so ridiculous, where you have to sell your equipment and then have the other character buy it. And gold are independent to the units. 

These are pretty much my thoughts as well, on a basic level. I could go into a lot more detail of why i despise FE4's gameplay but that would mean derailing the thread, which i don't wanna do, so if you want @Lewyn, we can discuss it in the PMs.

[Faellin]

Going with Berkut on this.

His slow decent into madness is played out perfectly throughout the entire game, and his voice actor did an amazing job as a whole with the character.

Sephiran as a close second. One of the few villains who perfectly manipulated the events across 2 whole games to get what he wants. Most manipulator villains typically only do it across 1 game, or do it poorly. Sephiran I feel did it best.

[SoulWeaver]

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And the backstory he had gotten and more personality development in Heroes, I just grew to love him all the more. Plus, I admit that them trying to actually fit Grima better into the lore of Fire Emblem since Awakening altered so many things is a big plus in my book. 

I find Grima an interesting enigma thanks mostly to Heroes. His Level 40 quote honestly makes him sound an awful lot like Anankos, which has me a bit worried about any future mention of him(perhaps they'll begin to add hints and bits of Grima's story into other Echoes titles in an attempt to make Chrom's inexplicable knowledge of all other games make some degree of sense?), and it looks like it completely ignores the backstory he got in SoV, which implies he never left Thabes after it was sealed and was beaten and more or less destroyed by Alm and consequently shouldn't have had that much knowledge of humanity until his unsealing during the First Exalt's time. It's possible there's some kind of important information involving events that occurred during that timeframe, but if there is we don't have anything more to go on than the Level 40 quote in Heroes.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, SoulWeaver said:

I find Grima an interesting enigma thanks mostly to Heroes. His Level 40 quote honestly makes him sound an awful lot like Anankos, which has me a bit worried about any future mention of him(perhaps they'll begin to add hints and bits of Grima's story into other Echoes titles in an attempt to make Chrom's inexplicable knowledge of all other games make some degree of sense?), and it looks like it completely ignores the backstory he got in SoV, which implies he never left Thabes after it was sealed and was beaten and more or less destroyed by Alm and consequently shouldn't have had that much knowledge of humanity until his unsealing during the First Exalt's time. It's possible there's some kind of important information involving events that occurred during that timeframe, but if there is we don't have anything more to go on than the Level 40 quote in Heroes.

Not necessarily. Remember that after he is defeated, it's mentioned that a sense of dread never faded. Naga mentioned that Grima cannot be killed, only sealed, and this is only by using the Shield of Seals and the Falchion with the Awakening. This is to actually add credence to that mention as Grima was defeated, but neither was he killed nor sealed. 

So Grima's spirit for all we know has been hanging around for a thousand years, and all he's been doing is just watching how humans have been repeating the same mistakes over and over again, and how they keep begging for the help of the gods, but any other time, humans end up acting like the gods did nothing and are instead shunned. It's just more and more cases of humanity just screwing up repeatedly. So Grima just has more and more reason to just hate humanity. I mean, save for a few people, humans generally suck.

[SoulWeaver]

All the same, it'll be interesting to see where they take Grima in regards to future games, particularly any more Echoes games and/or a game set in the First Exalt's time. I don't know that I look forward to it necessarily, but I do think it ought to be interesting.

[Lewyn]

Yeah agree don't want to derail thread, and there are buggy things like the trade and gold system in FE4.  However it brought so much new stuff.  It is easily the biggest revolutionary jump between games.  Triangle, marriage/child, skill system, the scope, sure many other details I'm focused on.  We could discuss it further but we likely just differ in taste, I did use cavalry to rush villages but other aspects of the map were handled with different characters plus with Warp and Return you could ease travel greatly.  There were also many opportunities to set up strategic defensive chokepoints.   

[Interdimensional Observer]

15 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Hey, I played Luminous Arc 1 and 2 as well. I preferred 1's characters more though. Arc 2 felt way too harem baity.

I'd say I preferred LA2's cast. Both casts are generic anime as anything, but LA2's had a little less filler and it felt better written to me. But I sold both and didn't play either in a long while

I'd say:

Alph >= Roland

Leon < Rasche (I love his hot spring scene, but Rasche is just the better bro overall)

Theo = Pip (Theo is a bit obnoxious about his shota-ness, Pip is a little more restrained)

Lucia >> Althea

Vanessa < Fatima (I've always had fanfict thoughts where she and Josie raised Roland instead of Steven and Rasche)

Claire <= Dia 

Mel < Luna

Vivi < Sadie

Nikolai >>>> Kaph (I offer a petition to gouge out Kaph's eyes)

Mavi = Pop (Mavi is kinda just there, Pop has a personality, but it isn't great)

Heath > Richter (Richter is kinda just there)

Pollon Pollon <<<< Josie (why does PP exist?)

And of the remaining characters who lack as clear parallels, I think Cecilia and Ayano were alike good (they're loosely comparable). Gaston was fine, but Kai was filler. Saki was fine, so was Rina, and Karen was good (well good for mass produced milk chocolate bars, no one in the LAs could classify as something of a higher order of quality and taste). Also, Therese over Alice, but neither has much personality.

 

Oh FE, favorite villain? Sephiran. I've written several detailed posts explaining why before, I'll just dig a shorter one one up:

Sephiran isn't really anything special, just someone in the cliche where they go insane because they can't take the suffering in the world anymore. But within FE, he's one of the few if only villains to go down this path.

Plus he constitutes the evil sorcerer of Tellius, but isn't "muhahaha!" and openly ugly, evil and clad in darkness. He's subtle, handsome, unpretentious, and holy. Very much an inversion for FE.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Stercus]

Lyon is absolutely one of my favourite video game antagonists due to the tragedy and complexity of his character. Heroes did a lot to remind me of why I liked him, and his dialogue definitely endeared him to me a lot more. Gangrel is another antagonist I'm quite fond of, he's an interesting twist on the "starter villain bad king guy" archetype, and I found his downward spiral after his defeat to be fascinating. The few conversations he gets as a party member are really interesting and I wish there could've been more of them. It just felt like lost potential.

[DragonFlames]

8 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I had to look up that game.  Oh I did play Luminous Arc 1 and 2 and enjoyed them.  Could you elaborate why Stella Glow is so special to you?  I'm interested, and am always up for a good SRPG, though I'm currently in the middle of Tear ring Saga.

I'll be honest: I have never even heard of Luminous Arc until now.
As to why I consider Stella Glow so special, well... it was a game I bought on a whim because the premise looked interesting to me. It's basically a world that has discovered how to turn emotion into power in the form of music, though that power was lost and only a select few female individuals called "Witches" can still use it.
What I got was an incredibly complex story with even more complex characters the likes of which I have personally never seen before, incredible music, like REALLY incredible music, and stellar (ha!) gameplay, even if it can be a little slow at times. The fanservice is definitely there, but it doesn't exactly bother me that much, though I really can't tell you why exactly that is. I guess I have seen worse and they even throw a lampshade over it more than once, which I can respect (one scene in particular is especially funny and heartwarming at the same time).

What sets it apart from Fire Emblem is the fact that every single playable character is at least somewhat important to the story. The focus is mostly on the Witches, yes, but every character gets their own moments and development.
In between missions and battles, there is also a "Free Time" mechanic that allows you to bond with your teammates (this will give you more insight into their personalities and struggles, as well as earn them new skills to work with during battles), work for the shops in town to get more money or go out and find items. It's a bit like Persona or Trails of Cold Steel in that time isn't infinite and you have to spend your time slots wisely before the next mission starts. 
And best of all: There are multiple endings depending on who you maxed your affection with (male characters included). If you maxed out multiple people, you even get to pick which ending you want to see after the credits. 

In short: It's everything I want in a game of its type.

7 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Ashnard by far. His design is awesome, and he's the one villain I can truly get behind hating but also respect. He's out of his mind, but he's also quite cunning and tactical. Those tactics may not seem logical to others, but in his own twisted, and yet justifiable, worldview they make complete sense. He also doubles down on his own philosophy and welcomes his death knowing that it was at the hands of someone stronger.

@DragonFlames I'd argue he is actually somewhat morally justifiable. His core philosophy is rather admirable. It's not even just might makes right, but that people should stand on their own merits, be that through cunning, brute force, or whatever means they want to. He opted force with some cunning and takes it to a literally insane extreme, but the basis is reasonable.

Good points. Putting it like that, he reminds me of Lucifer from Shin Megami Tensei IV... now I like him even more.

Edited March 21, 2018 by DragonFlames

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I'll be honest: I have never even heard of Luminous Arc until now.

It is basically the same as Stella Glow, but a bit inferior since SG develops from LA and thus has a number of improvements (not enough in my opinion for being the fourth game in the series- hence I did not buy it and won't unless $20 or less).

One element of this inferiority would be LA1 only having one ending and LA2 only giving you two choices (Althea or Fatima, and to get Fatima, you have to answer a bunch of pre-battle questions correctly to build your bond with her, but it is all too easy to end up with Althea).

In terms of character bonding element, you have unlimited means via grinding to max out everyone (heart with a cupid arrow through it is maxed bond, not just a full heart- in case you fail) in one run, while LA2 picks 2-3 characters for every story battle (prior to a point late in the game where you can trigger little character endings with those you bonded enough with) and you get to chat with one of them after the battle if you fielded them in the fight (you can't max everyone in one go).

Everyone in LA2 also has Hot Spring scenes with Roland save Alice and Therese, a set of three little chats with no extra benefit, but to get them, you have to field a character in one of the 1st and 2nd and one of the 3rd and 4th spa battles, plus the 5th, and then select them each time during the spa intermissions (so Rina-Rina-Rina to see her full hot spring chain, no Rina-Dia-Rina). And there are only five sets of spa battles, so you'll need multiple runs to see everyone's spa battle scenes if you don't look them up online. 

The battles are slow, but SG demo looked to me like this wasn't changing. And no songs with lyrics in either game beyond the opening trailer.

Plot-wise, you can expect about the same- an "evil" witch running around and being fought for the umpteenth time only for the "true" evil to emerge later. 

I never played LA3 since it never left Japan (I would have though given the chance), but it seems closer to SG in level of development.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[DragonFlames]

9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It is basically the same as Stella Glow, but a bit inferior since SG develops from LA and thus has a number of improvements (not enough in my opinion for being the fourth game in the series- hence I did not buy it and won't unless $20 or less).

One element of this inferiority would be LA1 only having one ending and LA2 only giving you two choices (Althea or Fatima, and to get Fatima, you have to answer a bunch of pre-battle questions correctly to build your bond with her, but it is all too easy to end up with Althea).

In terms of character bonding element, you have unlimited means via grinding to max out everyone (heart with a cupid arrow through it is maxed bond, not just a full heart- in case you fail) in one run, while LA2 picks 2-3 characters for every story battle (prior to a point late in the game where you can trigger little character endings with those you bonded enough with) and you get to chat with one of them after the battle if you fielded them in the fight (you can't max everyone in one go).

Everyone also has Hot Spring scenes with Roland save Alice and Therese, a set of three little chats with no extra benefit, but to get them, you have to field a character in one of the 1st and 2nd and one of the 3rd and 4th spa battles, plus the 5th, and then select them each time during the spa intermissions (so Rina-Rina-Rina to see her full hot spring chain, no Rina-Dia-Rina). And there are only five sets of spa battles, so you'll need multiple runs to see everyone's spa battle scenes if you don't look them up online. 

The battles are slow, but SG demo looked to me like this wasn't changing. And no songs with lyrics in either game beyond the opening trailer.

Plot-wise, you can expect about the same- an "evil" witch running around and being fought for the umpteenth time only for the "true" evil to emerge later. 

I never played LA3 since it never left Japan (I would have though given the chance), but it seems closer to SG in level of development.

Sounds interesting. I did hear that Stella Glow had predecessors, but I didn't know they were THAT close with their plot elements. Then again, most franchises are.
Battles in Stella Glow are kind of slow, yes, but to me, that doesn't exactly hamper the overall enjoyment I get with this game. I can see why it would bother people, though.

[Lewyn]

Yeah I checked out the trailer and some reviews, Stella glow does look very good.  For myself who has even enjoyed mediocre SRPGs (Cause I really love that genre) it looks like a pretty safe bet. 

Though...we are way off the thread aren't we?  What about the Gharnef/Jedah type antagonists?  Perhaps represented religious zealots who are completely consumed by its practices and disregard pretty much everything else?

[DragonFlames]

20 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Yeah I checked out the trailer and some reviews, Stella glow does look very good.  For myself who has even enjoyed mediocre SRPGs (Cause I really love that genre) it looks like a pretty safe bet. 

Though...we are way off the thread aren't we?  What about the Gharnef/Jedah type antagonists?  Perhaps represented religious zealots who are completely consumed by its practices and disregard pretty much everything else?

Ooh, I like those kinds of villains, but sadly, most of the time, they feel like generic evil sorcerer #344.
I feel like Jedah would fit your description the best out of all of them, at least from what I've played. Nergal was pretty unique in that regard, as well, though he wasn't very religious.

In fact, now that I think about it, religion is never really brought up in most Fire Emblem games, is it? I think Gaiden / Echoes are the only ones in which the religion of that world / land actually meant anything. Or did I miss something and we know more about the church of this St. Elimine person other than that the name alone is enough to drive people away, else they get "eliminated"... I'll see myself out, now.

Edited March 22, 2018 by DragonFlames

[Jotari]

28 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Ooh, I like those kinds of villains, but sadly, most of the time, they feel like generic evil sorcerer #344.
I feel like Jedah would fit your description the best out of all of them, at least from what I've played. Nergal was pretty unique in that regard, as well, though he wasn't very religious.

In fact, now that I think about it, religion is never really brought up in most Fire Emblem games, is it? I think Gaiden / Echoes are the only ones in which the religion of that world / land actually meant anything. Or did I miss something and we know more about the church of this St. Elimine person other than that the name alone is enough to drive people away, else they get "eliminated"... I'll see myself out, now.

It's given a pretty big role in Radiant Dawn, the whole end message even appearing to be some kind of moral about God being a useful idea even in an atheist universe. Though exactly how the religion actually effects the day to day lives of the characters and personal religious beliefs are a bit underdeveloped.

[thecrimsonflash]

23 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Yeah I checked out the trailer and some reviews, Stella glow does look very good.  For myself who has even enjoyed mediocre SRPGs (Cause I really love that genre) it looks like a pretty safe bet. 

Though...we are way off the thread aren't we?  What about the Gharnef/Jedah type antagonists?  Perhaps represented religious zealots who are completely consumed by its practices and disregard pretty much everything else?

I would like to add that personally I found stella glow to be one of my favorite 3ds games, I wouldn't say that it is incredible as an SRPG (too much RPG not enough S IMO, I was never a big fan of the FF Tactics style), but it does everything else quite well, it also has a pretty solid cast of characters, and a really enjoyable story (I don't think it would be literarily considered good but it was very enjoyable).

I would recommend it, easily surpases awakening in every regard.