Surtr is my favorite Heroes OC, fight me

[omegaxis1]

35 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

You know what, I'm pretty sure no one honest to god even cares, sorry about the preaching attitude.

They really don't. It's Heroes. It's about as barebones in plot as it comes.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

You know what, I'm pretty sure no one honest to god even cares, sorry about the preaching attitude.

I doubt anyone does, but I'm actually with you. i think we should have standards when it comes to this sort of stuff. It's been like less than twelve hours.

[XRay]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

  Hide contents

A satisfying end to Surtur, with Fjormshittalking the asshole.

And we can all be happy that Surtur was never revealed to have been a good person back then. 

Poor Helbindi and Laegjarn. The latter especially, since she literally burned herself alive. She even said that her eyes were burned away.

 

What!? NOOOOOOO!!! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! What a huge load of bull!

Spoiler

First Gunnthrá and now Laegjarn? Fuck you, story writer! I hope your favorite character dies in Games of Thrones, The Walking Dead, or whatever medium you consume.

Here is a song for Laegjarn, the best onee-chan:

I know I can treat you better
Than he can
And any girl like you deserves a gentleman
Tell me why are we wasting time
On all your wasted cryin'
When you should be with me instead
I know I can treat you better
Better than he can

 

[Midnox]

23 minutes ago, XRay said:

What!? NOOOOOOO!!! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! What a huge load of bull!

  Hide contents

First Gunnthrá and now Laegjarn? Fuck you, story writer! I hope your favorite character dies in Games of Thrones, The Walking Dead, or whatever medium you consume.

Here is a song for Laegjarn, the best onee-chan:

I know I can treat you better
Than he can
And any girl like you deserves a gentleman
Tell me why are we wasting time
On all your wasted cryin'
When you should be with me instead
I know I can treat you better
Better than he can

 

Spoiler

For real, the OC I wanted to die the least dies T_T. Oh well, at least her daddy bit the dust at last and she’s getting summonable soon

 

[Humanoid]

I mean, I quite like her design, but actually I'm also kind of glad she's dead. That might not make a whole lot of sense, but they had a lot of opportunity to not-die but chose to do so, and I have no problem fulfilling that request. If we killed both, I'd have no regrets either - my approach to this kind of thing is that anyone who opposes me will be destroyed - and I kinda hate it when I'm playing any video game and the player character is forced to show mercy or forgiveness to an enemy. No! No Mercy! No forgiveness!

[Icelerate]

I thought he was a bad character at first but now I think he's fine. I'd say he's a better villain than Ashnard. 

[Tenzen12]

8 hours ago, XRay said:

What!? NOOOOOOO!!! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! What a huge load of bull!

  Hide contents

First Gunnthrá and now Laegjarn? Fuck you, story writer! I hope your favorite character dies in Games of Thrones, The Walking Dead, or whatever medium you consume.

Here is a song for Laegjarn, the best onee-chan:

I know I can treat you better
Than he can
And any girl like you deserves a gentleman
Tell me why are we wasting time
On all your wasted cryin'
When you should be with me instead
I know I can treat you better
Better than he can

 

Well, you certainly can treat her better. You know what to do. 

I will without fail do same for mine no matter how many orbs it takes! 

[bottlegnomes]

44 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I thought he was a bad character at first but now I think he's fine. I'd say he's a better villain than Ashnard. 

Them's fighting words. May I ask why? 

[Icelerate]

50 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Them's fighting words. May I ask why? 

I think Surtr was very intimidating and hatable considering how he killed three sympathetic people whereas we are told of Ashnard's atrocities but don't directly see them. He also had plenty of battlefield presence which Ashnard lacked. 

Also, someone as evil and aggressive as Surtr resulted in him getting betrayed by everyone which is what will happen if you are aggressively stupid. Ashnard's aggressiveness was tolerated by people who had less of a connection to him than Surtr's accomplices. If I was a citizen of Muspel, it'd make a lot more sense for me to follow Surtr because Surtr doesn't abandon his country and set up a base in a foreign country while leaving his country with fewer forces than Crimea.  

Also, Surtr wanting to burn everyone who opposes him to the ground makes more sense than Ashnard wanting to drown everyone by reviving the dark god. After all, fire is an important part of Muspel's culture and Surtr's powers. Dark gods and floods are not important in Daein's culture so Ashnard's motive comes out of the blue. 

Gameplay wise, I found Surtr a lot more challenging on lunatic than I found Ashnard on hard mode so he lives up to his story hype better. 

[bottlegnomes]

37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I think Surtr was very intimidating and hatable considering how he killed three sympathetic people whereas we are told of Ashnard's atrocities but don't directly see them. He also had plenty of battlefield presence which Ashnard lacked. 

That was part of his plan. He wanted to let everyone involved bring their full might to bear. It makes no sense for him to nip it in the bud. I'll definitely agree that his actions were very much tell, not see since in large they happened prior to PoR's story or, in certain cases, like Elincia's family getting killed, out of scope.

 

37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Also, someone as evil and aggressive as Surtr resulted in him getting betrayed by everyone which is what will happen if you are aggressively stupid. Ashnard's aggressiveness was tolerated by people who had less of a connection to him than Surtr's accomplices. If I was a citizen of Muspel, it'd make a lot more sense for me to follow Surtr because Surtr doesn't abandon his country and set up a base in a foreign country while leaving his country with fewer forces than Crimea.  

IIRC, the citizens of Daein had no real feelings about Ashnard prior to PoR. He wasn't a good king prior to the invasion, but he didn't actively harm them. Honestly, that's probably to their benefit. They're left to live their lives without interference. After he abandoned them, I don't think the population had particularly good will, IIRC Micaiah and Sothe aren't terribly fond of him, but that's probably more for him starting an unnecessary war. The soldiers that went with him didn't really experience any particular hardship. To them, he was leading them on a campaign, not really any different than Ike with the mercs or Zelgius with Begnion, so they didn't have much of a reason to hate him. They might've disagreed with the war, but it was their job to serve their king. The soldiers he left behind were rather irked at him, but they felt it was their duty to defend their homeland. They weren't about to let invaders take it over. Their defending it had no stake in their feelings toward Ashnard himself.

 

37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Also, Surtr wanting to burn everyone who opposes him to the ground makes more sense than Ashnard wanting to drown everyone by reviving the dark god. After all, fire is an important part of Muspel's culture and Surtr's powers. Dark gods and floods are not important in Daein's culture so Ashnard's motive comes out of the blue. 

Ashnard didn't want to drown everything. He wanted a world were social order was stripped away, i.e. societal chaos, and strength, be that cunning, brute, or otherwise, would rule the day. In his twisted mind, it was a meritocracy. What better way to create societal chaos than release a being of chaos to create a calamity that would upset the entire balance of the world? Also, there's some implication (his touching the medallion) that he wanted to see if he was capable of surviving the calamity, if he was strong enough to deserve to live.

 

37 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Gameplay wise, I found Surtr a lot more challenging on lunatic than I found Ashnard on hard mode so he lives up to his story hype better. 

Ashnard is pretty imposing, especially when berserk. True, he can be cheesed, but so can Surtr. That said, very true; PoR and Ashnard, in general, aren't especially challenging.

Oh, right, mind, I don't have an issue with you thinking Surtr is better. I was curious since most people tend to like Ashy, and these are just my thoughts on your points. If you're up for discussing further, I am as well. If not, no worries.

Edited September 15, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Interdimensional Observer]

14 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

IIRC, the citizens of Daein had no real feelings about Ashnard prior to PoR. He wasn't a good king prior to the invasion, but he didn't actively harm them.

Sothe 
You know, Ashnard wasn't such a bad king. At least, as far as we could see. If you were strong enough, you could rise up and become a knight one day. You could escape the filthy slums. He was the only king who ever gave us that chance. That hope.

 

14 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Ashnard didn't want to drown everything. He wanted a world were social order was stripped away, i.e. societal chaos, and strength, be that cunning, brute, or otherwise, would rule the day. In his twisted mind, it was a meritocracy. What better way to create societal chaos than release a being of chaos to create a calamity that would upset the entire balance of the world?

To be precise, Ashnard vs. Reyson:

Spoiler

Ashnard: Galdr singer, did you come here today so that I might take ownership of you?

Reyson: I have something to ask you. Were you the one who stole the medallion and my sister, Lillia, from Serenes Forest?

Ashnard: You know that already, do you not? Why would you come all this way to ask something you already know? Do you wish me to deny it?

Reyson: If the dark god is awakened, the world will once again be flooded. And this time, even our continent will fall. You will not survive that event… Do you truly desire such an end?

Ashnard: I do. Oh, how I do… It’s true. The world may be destroyed by the coming of the dark god. Then again, it may not. I question the way in which our society is designed. No matter what strength a person has, it is the station he is born into that controls his destiny. And you cannot control where you will be born. Do you believe that a person of low birth should simply endure the curse of his station? I think not. If you are stronger than those around you, you should benefit from your strength. This is why I will use my strength to remake this world. Class and rank will not matter. Human and sub-human will not matter. The strong will possess everything. The weak will submit to their will. Is this not the meaning of peace?

Reyson: Are you saying that the lives of those without strength have no value?

Ashnard: That is the natural order. The only way for the weak to survive is to cling to the strong. Our discussion is over. Tell me, frail little bird who cannot fight; which do you choose? Submission? Or death?

Reyson: …Life proffered to me by your hand is something I would never accept!

Ashnard: Very well… Then I will give you the alternative! You will be a weight around my neck no more!

I bolded the relevant part here. He doesn't seem to actually know nor care if the world would be flooded.

 

14 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

That said, very true; PoR and Ashnard, in general, aren't especially challenging.

Bosses in FE on the whole are not, single units can only be so threatening in a game like this. For a final battle to be good, it has to be more than one stats-filled foe, the map itself has to be laden with strategy.

 

42 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Ashnard's aggressiveness was tolerated by people who had less of a connection to him than Surtr's accomplices.

Ashnard seems to have done two things.

1. One, in his meritocratic ideas, he installed his own cronies directly loyal to him over Daein in the military structure, who would have no qualms at all with the relocation to Melior.
2. Two, Ashnard co-opted the conservatives of Daein, and got them to believe he was like every king before him, Bryce and Kasatai (the general who talks to Ena), seem to have bought into this. IRL, radical rightist leaders (by which I mean Hitler, as much as I loathe to mention him ever), can cow more traditional rightists into working with them, Ashnard probably did the same. Thus, they were blinded to the truth, and probably by Ashnard's machinations castrated in their abilities to go against him anyhow.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[omegaxis1]

Though Ashnard was insane in how he was actually making a Blood Pact that he would not have any immunity to. The pact was made with his father and Sephiran as the signers. So one of them have to die and the paper destroyed to remove the curse. But in that regard, the fact that Ashnard did not stop the curse until all the successors that were before him died shows how insane it was. He could have died, then no one would break the pact, and all of Daein would end up destroyed. 

[bottlegnomes]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sothe 
You know, Ashnard wasn't such a bad king. At least, as far as we could see. If you were strong enough, you could rise up and become a knight one day. You could escape the filthy slums. He was the only king who ever gave us that chance. That hope.

Huh, he was better than I remembered. I really should play those games again and actually read the story again. RD was a bit of a mess but the duology have some really great pieces.

That's the interesting thing about Ashnard, and I'm pretty sure why he was so popular. The basic breakdown is:

1. To his enemies he's terrifying because he's completely merciless. He's not cruel or sadistic like Surtr; he just has no qualms about harming others, especially those who oppose him. He's not going to belabor a punishment; he's just going to do what he needs to get you out of his way. He's a pragmatist in that sense.
2. To those who know him, he's terrifying because they realize how insane he is.
3. To those who don't know him, like Sothe and Micaiah, he's just based on the stories they've heard and what they've seen of his ideals. Those ideals aren't actually all that terrible when filtered through people who aren't as batshit insane as he is since it's basically just let people have a chance to improve their living conditions based on their abilities.

Those three points highlight what makes him so great. He is completely hatable because of 1 and 2, but he also does challenge others beliefs and makes an uncomfortable amount of sense, 3. You as the player hate him and it's satisfying to take him down, but he's not just evil for the sake of evil. In fact, he's almost noble in a sense.

 

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ashnard seems to have done two things.

1. One, in his meritocratic ideas, he installed his own cronies directly loyal to him over Daein in the military structure, who would have no qualms at all with the relocation to Melior.
2. Two, Ashnard co-opted the conservatives of Daein, and got them to believe he was like every king before him, Bryce and Kasatai (the general who talks to Ena), seem to have bought into this. IRL, radical rightist leaders (by which I mean Hitler, as much as I loathe to mention him ever), can cow more traditional rightists into working with them, Ashnard probably did the same. Thus, they were blinded to the truth, and probably by Ashnard's machinations castrated in their abilities to go against him anyhow.

You think Bryce? I always took it as Bryce is fully aware of how psychotic Ashnard was. The one thing he wasn't aware of was that Ashnard killed the rest of his family, which seemed to more seal the deal rather than change Bryce's opinion. Bryce, based on his Tauroneo conversation, seemed more like he followed Ashnard because he was old, tired, and didn't know what else to do. He knew it would kill him and he knew it was wrong, but between, as Ashnard put it, foolish knightly loyalty and basically not having the drive to try to change the world anymore, Bryce stayed in a job he hated. That's uncomfortably close to home for a lot of people, the devil you know.

Also, lastly, thanks for posting the relevant stuff! I knew I remembered seeing those somewhere, but it's been so long, I can't remember anymore.

 

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Though Ashnard was insane in how he was actually making a Blood Pact that he would not have any immunity to. The pact was made with his father and Sephiran as the signers. So one of them have to die and the paper destroyed to remove the curse. But in that regard, the fact that Ashnard did not stop the curse until all the successors that were before him died shows how insane it was. He could have died, then no one would break the pact, and all of Daein would end up destroyed. 

You know, I always hated that aspect since it took away one of Ashnard's accomplishments, surreptitiously and successfully picking off everyone ahead of him, and the whole Blood Pact seemed contrived, but damn it, man, you've made me actually like it. It fits with him. He believes in strength, but he never actually says its only physical strength. He's perfectly willing to accept other forms, and luck is a perfectly valid thing in his world. It's luck that he got a chance to fight Gawain's son. It's just that as long as they're alive, people should have a way of mitigating that luck. If someone dies from random chance, oh well. Shit happens. If he dies before he becomes king and kills his father, oh well. Shit happened. However, if he dies and no one else is smart enough to figure out how to break the pact, then they didn't deserve to live since they weren't strong enough to—in this case, intellectual strength. I still think the Blood Pact is kind of a shoehorned plot device to give Micaiah justification for fighting Ike, but it works really well for Ashnard, and I think he'd actually applaud Micaiah's actions in figuring out how to save everyone.

[Icelerate]

35 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

That was part of his plan. He wanted to let everyone involved bring their full might to bear. It makes no sense for him to nip it in the bud. I'll definitely agree that his actions were very much tell, not see since in large they happened prior to PoR's story or, in certain cases, like Elincia's family getting killed, out of scope.

 

That's why I find Surtr more compelling because he's a lot more decisive. He isn't going to just wait and let his opponents unleash their full force but still wants to have a good fight and make his opponents have hatred of him so that they fight with fury. Despite Heroes having far less dialogue and scenes, Surtr did more than Ashnard on screen, so if Heroes had the same amount of development and world building as PoR, Surtr would probably be one of the best villains in all of FE easily. 

 

27 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ashnard seems to have done two things.

1. One, in his meritocratic ideas, he installed his own cronies directly loyal to him over Daein in the military structure, who would have no qualms at all with the relocation to Melior.
2. Two, Ashnard co-opted the conservatives of Daein, and got them to believe he was like every king before him, Bryce and Kasatai (the general who talks to Ena), seem to have bought into this. IRL, radical rightist leaders (by which I mean Hitler, as much as I loathe to mention him ever), can cow more traditional rightists into working with them, Ashnard probably did the same. Thus, they were blinded to the truth, and probably by Ashnard's machinations castrated in their abilities to go against him anyhow.

Well, Hitler fixed up the massive hyperinflation of the German economy which is better than Ashnard's accomplishments. Despite starting a World War, Hitler didn't abandon Germany. He stayed in Berlin instead of relocating to some other country. 

 

43 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

IIRC, the citizens of Daein had no real feelings about Ashnard prior to PoR. He wasn't a good king prior to the invasion, but he didn't actively harm them. Honestly, that's probably to their benefit. They're left to live their lives without interference. After he abandoned them, I don't think the population had particularly good will, IIRC Micaiah and Sothe aren't terribly fond of him, but that's probably more for him starting an unnecessary war. The soldiers that went with him didn't really experience any particular hardship. To them, he was leading them on a campaign, not really any different than Ike with the mercs or Zelgius with Begnion, so they didn't have much of a reason to hate him. They might've disagreed with the war, but it was their job to serve their king. The soldiers he left behind were rather irked at him, but they felt it was their duty to defend their homeland. They weren't about to let invaders take it over. Their defending it had no stake in their feelings toward Ashnard himself.

 

Yeah but the last chapter where everyone betrayed Surtr was satisfying to see. A moment like that doesn't really happen with Ashnard so I don't get the same feeling when we finally defeat him. Sure Tauroneo, Jill and Haar defect but their connections with Ashnard aren't big and they themselves don't accomplish much. Helbendi allowed two princesses to escape which is a lot more than Jill, Tauroneo and Haar doing. 

Quote

Ashnard didn't want to drown everything. He wanted a world were social order was stripped away, i.e. societal chaos, and strength, be that cunning, brute, or otherwise, would rule the day. In his twisted mind, it was a meritocracy. What better way to create societal chaos than release a being of chaos to create a calamity that would upset the entire balance of the world? Also, there's some implication (his touching the medallion) that he wanted to see if he was capable of surviving the calamity, if he was strong enough to deserve to live.

Basically, he wanted to test out the theory of evolution to see whether humans become extinct like the dinosaurs were or they adapt? I guess that makes sense. Still, I find Surtr's motives less convoluted and more sensible. He's a sadist who enjoys bringing pain and suffering while creating hatred in his enemies to get a fight against them at full power. 

Quote

Ashnard is pretty imposing, especially when berserk. True, he can be cheesed, but so can Surtr. That said, very true; PoR and Ashnard, in general, aren't especially challenging.

Oh, right, mind, I don't have an issue with you thinking Surtr is better. I was curious since most people tend to like Ashy, and these are just my thoughts on your points. If you're up for discussing further, I am as well. If not, no worries.

Lastly, Surtr's defeat is a lot more satisfying because he ends up horrified and surprised he lost whereas Ashnard just accepts he was weaker and moves on. 

I've never got why people think Ashnard was such a great character, especially when compared to Lekain who seems rather unpopular. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

You think Bryce? I always took it as Bryce is fully aware of how psychotic Ashnard was. The one thing he wasn't aware of was that Ashnard killed the rest of his family, which seemed to more seal the deal rather than change Bryce's opinion. Bryce, based on his Tauroneo conversation, seemed more like he followed Ashnard because he was old, tired, and didn't know what else to do. He knew it would kill him and he knew it was wrong, but between, as Ashnard put it, foolish knightly loyalty and basically not having the drive to try to change the world anymore, Bryce stayed in a job he hated. That's uncomfortably close to home for a lot of people, the devil you know.

The problem with Bryce vs. Tauroneo is that it comes right after Bryce has awoken to Ashnard calling him useless.

Sadly, poor Bryce never appears before that scene, despite all the banter we see Ashnard having in "Nevassa"/Melior talking to the BK and Petrine. I think that Bryce never appearing in these conversations, and him not being a feral puppet like Bertram, is evidence of Ashnard effectively sidelining the conservatives in Daein's military. He can exclude them from his highest, most inner, and most powerful, circle of military advisors.

Back to the main point concerning Bryce, if we saw him interacting with Ashnard earlier, we'd have a better idea of how much faith he put in him as a traditional "sane" monarch of Daein. 

If we examine the one scene:

Spoiler

Bryce
...It appears the end is near. Your Majesty, please use the rear gate and withdraw. We will cover your retreat.

Ashnard
I am not leaving.

Bryce
But if... If we lose Your Majesty, the Daein royal bloodline itself will be lost!

Ashnard
Are you saying I will lose? Hm? Is that what you wish to say?

Bryce
...Of course not! However, our army is in dire straits. It is merely an act of prudence, Your Majesty. I humbly ask that you consider the continuance of the bloodline above all else. Of course, your judgment--

Ashnard
The value of the thirteenth generation of Daein's royal family is not so high as to warrant your pathetic display. I AM Daein. If I am to be destroyed, then let Daein be destroyed with me.

Bryce
Your... Your Majesty... That is--

Ashnard
I have no need of inconstant retainers. You are an obstacle. Away with you.

Bryce
...B-but, Your Majesty...

Ashnard
My sole desire is to rule through strength. The weak perish, and the strong live on... This is the law of nature. It is the law the goddess herself created when she forged this world.

Bryce
...It appears that further conversation would only be a waste of time. Though even if His Majesty desires it not, I will remain and protect him. I cannot allow the legacy of Daein to end here!

Ashnard
Tell me, Bryce... You were my father's retainer, were you not?

Bryce
...From the fifteenth year of my life...and for twenty more years until his death... I did serve him faithfully.

Ashnard
The thing that killed my father was not plague, nor was it another illness.  It was me.

Bryce
Wh-what?

Ashnard
Oh, but it doesn't end there. There was my stepmother, too. And every brother who stood to be a legitimate heir...All of them died by my hand.

Bryce
...

Ashnard
Are you still determined to protect me? Knowing this truth?

Bryce
...I am...Even knowing now as I do...you are still your father's son. The blood of Daein's kings flows in you. You are all that remains....By your leave.

Ashnard
Such loyalty to a corpse...In truth, there is nothing in this world more humorous than a knight.
 

Bryce is concerned with the continuance of the royal Daein bloodline here. Bloodlines of inheritance are a bane of meritocracy, why would Ashnard care about it? Heck he only had one son and threw em' away. Overall, the impression I get here is that Bryce, given just how shocked he is, and yet he was seemingly very lovingly concerned about tradition and Ashnard at the started, was blind to Ashnard's insanity.

 

17 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Despite starting a World War, Hitler didn't abandon Germany. He stayed in Berlin instead of relocating to some other country. 

Like he had anywhere to turn to? He was being flanked on both sides. And he apparently cursed the German people for failing him as his empire came crushing down around him, he wanted them to suffer. 

But let us quit while we're ahead, and avoid going down the Nazi rabbit hole (I admit I shouldn't have brought it up).

 

3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Lastly, Surtr's defeat is a lot more satisfying because he ends up horrified and surprised he lost whereas Ashnard just accepts he was weaker and moves on. 

His last line is:

Heh heh...excellent...Excellent! So good! More...more, I say! At this time of ascension, it's not enough...not enough...

Which sounds like he was having fun, and wanted even more (chaos to break the Medallion?).

And Ashnard not being NOOOOOO!, instead to the end embracing the chaos and kinda ignoring that he is dying, has a certain appeal. As he died, he didn't go "no I can't die! I'm speciallll!", if he acknowledged he lost because he was weak, and didn't complain about this, then he was accepting he was no exception to his own ideals, he wasn't being a hypocrite, and held firm to them to his dying breath.

 

5 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I've never got why people think Ashnard was such a great character, especially when compared to Lekain who seems rather unpopular. 

Lekain has the issue of being a mustache-twirling corrupt noble, which a dime a baker's dozen thousand in gaming. Within FE, you can find similar guys going back too... Desaix? Maybe even Jiol? FE3 has Lang, FE4 has them galore, FE6 has them wasting too much of Roy's time, Darin is in FE7.

How many Ashnards existed before Ashnard? Just Valter and Caellach I think, and they were developed in parallel with him, quite possibly.

Not helping are the direct attribution of the Meshua assassination and Serenes Massacre to him being locked away in an artbook, and the two of us make of 20% of the people who have read it.

Related to the above, only the two of us have made the connection between him and Sephiran's sorrows, that Lekain creates villain Sephiran, and thus indirectly created much of the plots of PoR and RD.

Not helping too is that smidgen where Yune says he was empty deep on the inside being locked away in the Japan-only Extended Script.

And lastly not helping is him blackmailing Daein with the much-loathed Blood Pact.

[Icelerate]

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Like he had anywhere to turn to? He was being flanked on both sides. And he apparently cursed the German people for failing him as his empire came crushing down around him, he wanted them to suffer. 

But let us quit while we're ahead, and avoid going down the Nazi rabbit hole (I admit I shouldn't have brought it up).

 

That's besides the point though. The point was that Germany was one of the final countries to be conquered and the war was pretty much over by that point. Whereas, the Daein army continued to fight for Ashnard even after losing their homeland. Ashnard lost authority over Daein and the right to rule over the country so why are Daein soldiers in Crimea still loyal to him especially when they believe in his meritocracy. However, A

 

shnard proved to be anything but competent in his handling of the war. So much for him having supporters due to supporting meritocratic ideals when he's pretty incompetent. Even Pelleas has shown to be more competent, charismatic and much better person compared to Ashnard but the Daein people didn't like him due to being incompetent. 

 

11 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

His last line is:

Heh heh...excellent...Excellent! So good! More...more, I say! At this time of ascension, it's not enough...not enough...

Which sounds like he was having fun, and wanted even more (chaos to break the Medallion?).

And Ashnard not being NOOOOOO!, instead to the end embracing the chaos and kinda ignoring that he is dying, has a certain appeal. As he died, he didn't go "no I can't die! I'm speciallll!", if he acknowledged he lost because he was weak, and didn't complain about this, then he was accepting he was no exception to his own ideals, he wasn't being a hypocrite, and held firm to them to his dying breath.

 

See, the whole point was my personal opinion on why I felt Surtr was a better villain. I felt more thrilled killing Surtr than Ashnard because Ashnard even enjoys it so you're basically giving him what he wants. 

Quote

Lekain has the issue of being a mustache-twirling corrupt noble, which a dime a baker's dozen thousand in gaming. Within FE, you can find similar guys going back too... Desaix? Maybe even Jiol? FE3 has Lang, FE4 has them galore, FE6 has them wasting too much of Roy's time, Darin is in FE7.

How many Ashnards existed before Ashnard? Just Valter and Caellach I think, and they were developed in parallel with him, quite possibly.

Not helping are the direct attribution of the Meshua assassination and Serenes Massacre to him being locked away in an artbook, and the two of us make of 20% of the people who have read it.

Related to the above, only the two of us have made the connection between him and Sephiran's sorrows, that Lekain creates villain Sephiran, and thus indirectly created much of the plots of PoR and RD.

Not helping too is that smidgen where Yune says he was empty deep on the inside being locked away in the Japan-only Extended Script.

And lastly not helping is him blackmailing Daein with the much-loathed Blood Pact.

Isn't the whole "might is right" ideology a common villain trope? 

As for there being a lot of others similar to Lekain. Sure but none of those are as compelling because they die pretty early, get less screen time and have less success or cunning to make them as formidable. 

On the other hand, the villain I can compare Ashnard to is far better than him. Esdeath (Akame ga Kill) has the same "might is right" ideology but she has a lot of other qualities and actions that make her a great character, all of which Ashnard lacks. I would go into more detail but I'm not sure if you're familiar with the manga. 

Also, Lekain actually made more sense than Ike and Sanaki in the scene where he said Ike should be executed. Insulting someone who has a connection with a god in a theocracy is punishable by death and that's the common norm. So, the way Lekain uses the law of the land to advance his own schemes is pretty scary even before he's revealed to be a villain because he need not be villainous to say such a thing. Hence why he had so many people under his thumb. 

Very few people have read the Japanese Extended script and even if they have, that line is easy to overlook. 

 

[Tybrosion]

Honestly, nothing about Surtr would've been any different if the only words that came out of his mouth were these. That's how compelling I found him, at least.

Spoiler

Note: Do not play this video if you are easily annoyed and/or have a particular hatred of loud, obnoxious yelling.

And I'll probably finally play this wonderful game sometime soon. Yes, I frequently regret my life choices.

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Tybrosion

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

So, the way Lekain uses the law of the land to advance his own schemes is pretty scary even before he's revealed to be a villain because he need not be villainous to say such a thing.

Are you implying Lekain somehow had the foresight to see Ike would later pose a threat to him? Or that he could see what Sanaki actually planned to use Ike for- investigating Laguz slavery? Lekain the latter case is slightly believable, the former is none at all, Lekain is no Heron nor Heron Branded.

 

3 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

And I'll probably play this wonderful game sometime soon. Yes, I frequently regret my life choices.

Why? Are you being punished? Are you buying MMX Collection 2 and have to 100% it? Try drinking to numb the pain as you play.

[Tybrosion]

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Why? Are you being punished? Are you buying MMX Collection 2 and have to 100% it? Try drinking to numb the pain as you play.

Yes, I am being punished: by myself.

I already have Legacy Collections 1 and 2 and am currently on X3. As for why, beating X7 at least once is simply a badge of shame I must eventually don as a Mega Man fan (along with actually finishing X6 for that matter).

[bottlegnomes]

3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

That's why I find Surtr more compelling because he's a lot more decisive. He isn't going to just wait and let his opponents unleash their full force but still wants to have a good fight and make his opponents have hatred of him so that they fight with fury. Despite Heroes having far less dialogue and scenes, Surtr did more than Ashnard on screen, so if Heroes had the same amount of development and world building as PoR, Surtr would probably be one of the best villains in all of FE easily. 

I feel like you might be conflating the two's motivations since both involve strength when they're actually pretty distinct.

Surtr enjoyed fighting, true, but he enjoyed it because he enjoyed the feeling of superiority, the feeling of getting his enemies really motivated and then proving that despite all their convictions they were flies to him. That said, he always wanted to win. To sit back and let people have time to ready themselves would have put that in jeopardy, so it wouldn't have suited his motivations.

Ashnard, on the other hand, didn't care who won. He was truly, utterly 100% committed to his ideals, which is where the sort of warped nobility comes from. He wanted everyone to be able to bring their best self to bear. To cut someone off before they've had a chance to do that, would defeat that purpose. You could make the case that a surprise invasion of Crimea opposes that, but Ashnard probably saw it as Crimea is an established kingdom with a standing, well-trained army. If they're not prepared for the worst, then that's a failing on their part and they aren't strong enough, in this case, tactically, to deserve to live. Ike was a mercenary. There's no reasonable way he could have been prepared to lead a resistance to a full invasion, so he should be given a chance to prove himself. Also, there is some selfishness in Ashnard's motivation there. He believes himself to be the strongest, but unlike Surtr, that is solely rooted in the fact that he'd never encountered someone stronger than him. He always wanted to test himself, to see if he really was the strongest. I'm sure if he hadn't had other uses for the BK, he would have cornered him into a fight, but instead, and also because of who Ike's dad was, Ashnard figured that was his best bet to test his strength.

That's where the difference lies. Surtr thinks he's the strongest because of hubris and feels he deserves to be the strongest. Ashnard thinks he's the strongest because no one has disproved it and wants to find out if he really is. If you're familiar with DBZ, it's Cell vs. Goku. Cell doesn't want to admit he's not the strongest; Goku is perfectly willing to. I swear that wasn't on my mind because I just watched DBZ abridged.

 

18 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Well, Hitler fixed up the massive hyperinflation of the German economy which is better than Ashnard's accomplishments. Despite starting a World War, Hitler didn't abandon Germany. He stayed in Berlin instead of relocating to some other country. 

To be fair, in the time period that FE is set in, it wasn't uncommon for kings and generals to lead their men to battle. Alexander the Great always actively led his campaigns. By the 20th century views had changed. Granted he does predate medieval times, but it's still a somewhat similar mindset. Also, a @Interdimensional Observer pointed out, he did actually help the poor out by letting them have actual realistic hope of improving their standing which was no small thing in medieval times.

That said, Hitler was a monster in a lot of ways, but he wasn't only evil. He did actually have some good intentions, just they were massively outweighed by all the awful things he did. Stalin, for example, on the other hand, was completely self-serving.

 

26 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Yeah but the last chapter where everyone betrayed Surtr was satisfying to see. A moment like that doesn't really happen with Ashnard so I don't get the same feeling when we finally defeat him. Sure Tauroneo, Jill and Haar defect but their connections with Ashnard aren't big and they themselves don't accomplish much. Helbendi allowed two princesses to escape which is a lot more than Jill, Tauroneo and Haar doing. 

Really? I honestly just found it a relief to have it be over. The betrayals felt cliched and like we were beaten over the head with their justifications and yet all the characters involved had threadbare development. Heck, I wasn't even particularly upset when Laegjarn, my favorite OC, died because, well, while she had some actual development, there still wasn't much to get attached to. The whole thing just seemed half-assed to me.

 

30 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Basically, he wanted to test out the theory of evolution to see whether humans become extinct like the dinosaurs were or they adapt? I guess that makes sense. Still, I find Surtr's motives less convoluted and more sensible. He's a sadist who enjoys bringing pain and suffering while creating hatred in his enemies to get a fight against them at full power. 

Basically, yeah. I guess I can see the convoluted thing, but Surtr is sane, and Ashnard is pretty much certifiably insane. To me, the fact that they could give a character motivations that both fully came across as insane and worked within their own twisted logic is what makes Ashnard great.

Also, I never took Surtr as actually caring if he fought people at their full strength. I always took it as he wanted to exhaust and break them. Think about it, if you lose your cool and get beaten, you end up feeling a lot more ashamed than if you go into a fight with a level head. Surtr doesn't actually want to challenge himself; he just wants to humiliate others, which lines up with his sadism.

 

35 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Lastly, Surtr's defeat is a lot more satisfying because he ends up horrified and surprised he lost whereas Ashnard just accepts he was weaker and moves on. 

I actually like that. Surtr's death has been done plenty of times. Big bad guy who thinks he's the be-all-end-all gets his comeuppance and is humiliated instead. It's basically the plot of a lot of high school movies. Ashnard's plays into his warped nobility. Yeah, he did a lot of terrible things, but those beliefs he kept espousing weren't simply justifications for his actions. He really was fully committed to them and all his actions line up with them.

 

38 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I've never got why people think Ashnard was such a great character, especially when compared to Lekain who seems rather unpopular. 

I never got the sense that people actively disliked Lekain so much as he was rather unremarkable and a bit of a tool. But basically, Lekain is an okay execution of a pretty common trope. He's a completely selfish noble with no regard for anyone below him. Returning to the high school movie comparison, he's the jerk jock. Ashnard was probably a lot of people in the fandom's first introduction to a villain with motives that weren't outright selfish but who wasn't a case of a completely sympathetic, wrong time, wrong place/good guy, bad decision character. He's not one dimensional. He makes the character hate all the awful he's done, but acknowledge that it's not as simple as black and white. There's none of that with Lekain. He's just the corrupt noble. There's nothing innately wrong with that, but he wasn't exactly executed especially well. Ashnard was solid execution of a comparatively unconventional character.

 

45 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

if Heroes had the same amount of development and world building as PoR, Surtr would probably be one of the best villains in all of FE easily. 

I don't know if I agree, but I don't actually object to this. Heroes had all the pieces, just the execution was bungled at best and phoned in at worst. It was basically like the bullet points to a story, but the author didn't flesh them out so the final product was just the bullet points.

 

30 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sadly, poor Bryce never appears before that scene, despite all the banter we see Ashnard having in "Nevassa"/Melior talking to the BK and Petrine. I think that Bryce never appearing in these conversations, and him not being a feral puppet like Bertram, is evidence of Ashnard effectively sidelining the conservatives in Daein's military. He can exclude them from his highest, most inner, and most powerful, circle of military advisors.

Are you certain? I could've sworn there were scenes with him which basically play into what you mentioned, where he's actually shown as very sidelined and into what I said, where he just sort of nods and does has he's told because he's too tired to really care. Maybe I'm just inventing things, though. I really do need to replay PoR and RD.

As for the convo, I feel like that's a case of us reading things differently. Even that, I take as the acts of a man who's desperate to hold onto something he once believed in, even if he doesn't really believe it anymore. He wants Daein to survive, he wants to be a good soldier, he wants to find some justification or sanity in Ashnard's motivations, and he doesn't want what he spent his entire life doing to end up being completely meaningless. The end is him basically just admitting that he can't even fool himself anymore, but that it's too late to change. That's a lot of interpretation, but I think, for me, it mostly comes from the placement of the ellipses.

 

36 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

How many Ashnards existed before Ashnard? Just Valter and Caellach I think, and they were developed in parallel with him, quite possibly.

Even then, I'd say Ashnard is distinct. Caellach has the gumption to admit he's beaten, but he's not actually happy about it, as he was only concerned with himself, and Valter is just psychotic and enjoys killing. As far as not being hypocrites, they're similar, but Ashnard was the first to be unrepentantly evil and have a motive that wasn't solely self-serving to a lot of English audiences. I'd say he actually has more in common with Medeus than anyone else, though Medeus was a bit more of a dick about things and a bit more self serving by the end of it, e.g. tricking all the other Earth Dragons into going to sleep. Arvis and Lyon see their actions as the greater good and so are willing to do them, but aren't exactly peachy about it.

 

18 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

That's besides the point though. The point was that Germany was one of the final countries to be conquered and the war was pretty much over by that point. Whereas, the Daein army continued to fight for Ashnard even after losing their homeland. Ashnard lost authority over Daein and the right to rule over the country so why are Daein soldiers in Crimea still loyal to him especially when they believe in his meritocracy. However, Ashnard proved to be anything but competent in his handling of the war. So much for him having supporters due to supporting meritocratic ideals when he's pretty incompetent. Even Pelleas has shown to be more competent, charismatic and much better person compared to Ashnard but the Daein people didn't like him due to being incompetent. 

I don't think the soldiers in Crimea really knew about that. Ashnard wasn't dumb. He wasn't going to say that Daein had been completely overtaken. Also, there's a bit of a difference between someone being good at something and someone having ideals you agree with so it's not out of reason to think that people who agreed with his ideals were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. To those around him, but not in immediate contact, e.g. Sothe, he actually seemed competent. It's just that as you get closer, you realize more and more he's nuts, hence Bryce.

 

21 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

See, the whole point was my personal opinion on why I felt Surtr was a better villain. I felt more thrilled killing Surtr than Ashnard because Ashnard even enjoys it so you're basically giving him what he wants. 

In terms of accomplishing what a villain is meant to do, motivate you to want to kick their ass, I can't fault you for that. I would very strongly disagree, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

22 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Isn't the whole "might is right" ideology a common villain trope? 

To me, the two things that distinguish Ashnard are:

1. He's not a hypocrite about it. A lot of villains do espouse that philosophy, but a lot of those same villains end up sniveling messes when they are beaten because they don't want to die or deserve a second chance. I feel like that might be because there is something cathartic about seeing the bad guy humiliated.
2. He never actually limits it to just might, so to speak. That's what he does and what he cultivates around him since it's what he's most familiar with, but he's perfectly willing to accept other forms of strength, for example, Ike's tactical strength in knowing whom to put his faith in and leadership abilities or Naesala's cunning. In his convo with Naesala, he doesn't take any issue with Naesala trying to trick him; he just cuts through the bullshit. You very well could say I'm reading too much into stuff here, and I very well may be, but eh.

I'm not saying Ashnard is the best written villain of all time or completely unique, but in the context of FE, he's both rather unique and pretty well done.

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Surtr pulls up a magical flamethrower to whoever gets inhis way, something done by Kim Jong-Un and utilized during the World Wars. Perhaps Japanese makes mention of how the M2 flamethrower counter the spider trenches used by the Japanese. His pure unadulterated yet thorough savagery is realistic of many despots. 

[Icelerate]

44 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

I feel like you might be conflating the two's motivations since both involve strength when they're actually pretty distinct.

Surtr enjoyed fighting, true, but he enjoyed it because he enjoyed the feeling of superiority, the feeling of getting his enemies really motivated and then proving that despite all their convictions they were flies to him. That said, he always wanted to win. To sit back and let people have time to ready themselves would have put that in jeopardy, so it wouldn't have suited his motivations.

Ashnard, on the other hand, didn't care who won. He was truly, utterly 100% committed to his ideals, which is where the sort of warped nobility comes from. He wanted everyone to be able to bring their best self to bear. To cut someone off before they've had a chance to do that, would defeat that purpose. You could make the case that a surprise invasion of Crimea opposes that, but Ashnard probably saw it as Crimea is an established kingdom with a standing, well-trained army. If they're not prepared for the worst, then that's a failing on their part and they aren't strong enough, in this case, tactically, to deserve to live. Ike was a mercenary. There's no reasonable way he could have been prepared to lead a resistance to a full invasion, so he should be given a chance to prove himself. Also, there is some selfishness in Ashnard's motivation there. He believes himself to be the strongest, but unlike Surtr, that is solely rooted in the fact that he'd never encountered someone stronger than him. He always wanted to test himself, to see if he really was the strongest. I'm sure if he hadn't had other uses for the BK, he would have cornered him into a fight, but instead, and also because of who Ike's dad was, Ashnard figured that was his best bet to test his strength.

That's where the difference lies. Surtr thinks he's the strongest because of hubris and feels he deserves to be the strongest. Ashnard thinks he's the strongest because no one has disproved it and wants to find out if he really is. If you're familiar with DBZ, it's Cell vs. Goku. Cell doesn't want to admit he's not the strongest; Goku is perfectly willing to. I swear that wasn't on my mind because I just watched DBZ abridged.

 

None of this makes Ashnard a more compelling villain than Surtr. Also, if he wanted to see if he's personally strong, then why is he not on the battlefield? Haven't watched DBZ so not familiar with it. 

Quote

I never got the sense that people actively disliked Lekain so much as he was rather unremarkable and a bit of a tool. But basically, Lekain is an okay execution of a pretty common trope. He's a completely selfish noble with no regard for anyone below him. Returning to the high school movie comparison, he's the jerk jock. Ashnard was probably a lot of people in the fandom's first introduction to a villain with motives that weren't outright selfish but who wasn't a case of a completely sympathetic, wrong time, wrong place/good guy, bad decision character. He's not one dimensional. He makes the character hate all the awful he's done, but acknowledge that it's not as simple as black and white. There's none of that with Lekain. He's just the corrupt noble. There's nothing innately wrong with that, but he wasn't exactly executed especially well. Ashnard was solid execution of a comparatively unconventional character.

Ike is rather unremarkable compared to Micaiah but that doesn't stop them from being more popular. I disagree, Lekain was executed much better than Ashnard. Leikain isn't just a corrupt noble, he's also fully committed to serving Ashera and in being a racist which isn't just because he's a horrible person but because racism was a product of the times and became worse due to Sephiran and Deghinsea's mishaps ironically. He's selfish, but he has other motivations that give him more depth and complexity. Also, Lekain was quite proactive behind the scenes, Ashnard wasn't, except for invading Crimea and getting the medallion. 

Quote

To be fair, in the time period that FE is set in, it wasn't uncommon for kings and generals to lead their men to battle. Alexander the Great always actively led his campaigns. By the 20th century views had changed. Granted he does predate medieval times, but it's still a somewhat similar mindset. Also, a @Interdimensional Observer pointed out, he did actually help the poor out by letting them have actual realistic hope of improving their standing which was no small thing in medieval times.

 Starting wars don't help the poor and whatever trust Ashnard got should have faded away after seeing how badly the war was going. 

Quote

Really? I honestly just found it a relief to have it be over. The betrayals felt cliched and like we were beaten over the head with their justifications and yet all the characters involved had threadbare development. Heck, I wasn't even particularly upset when Laegjarn, my favorite OC, died because, well, while she had some actual development, there still wasn't much to get attached to. The whole thing just seemed half-assed to me.

Seeing him getting betrayed by his former allies was more thrilling, especially since the two of them ended up dying, one to him and the other because of him. Ashnard doesn't have that going for him. 

Quote

I actually like that. Surtr's death has been done plenty of times. Big bad guy who thinks he's the be-all-end-all gets his comeuppance and is humiliated instead. It's basically the plot of a lot of high school movies. Ashnard's plays into his warped nobility. Yeah, he did a lot of terrible things, but those beliefs he kept espousing weren't simply justifications for his actions. He really was fully committed to them and all his actions line up with them.

My point was, it is more satisfying to kill Surtr than Ashnard. Also, if Ashnard wanted to really be the strongest, he'd have picked a fight with Begnion instead. Not preying on the weak. 

Quote

I don't think the soldiers in Crimea really knew about that. Ashnard wasn't dumb. He wasn't going to say that Daein had been completely overtaken. Also, there's a bit of a difference between someone being good at something and someone having ideals you agree with so it's not out of reason to think that people who agreed with his ideals were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. To those around him, but not in immediate contact, e.g. Sothe, he actually seemed competent. It's just that as you get closer, you realize more and more he's nuts, hence Bryce.

They obviously knew because Crimean soldiers invaded Crimea from Daein. 

Quote

Rikard
The army that brushed aside our troops in Daein and defeated General Petrine at the Riven Bridge? They're marching towards us? Fantastic! I was getting bored hunting stragglers. Let's smash all of these curs and wrap ourselves in glory.
 

Sothe didn't say he was competent and he's a kid so not the best judge. Ashnard was pretty dumb due to being tactically inept. 

Quote

In terms of accomplishing what a villain is meant to do, motivate you to want to kick their ass, I can't fault you for that. I would very strongly disagree, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Well, you asked me why I liked Surtr more and I already said my reasons. This chapter sold me on him being a more compelling villain. 

Quote

To me, the two things that distinguish Ashnard are:

1. He's not a hypocrite about it. A lot of villains do espouse that philosophy, but a lot of those same villains end up sniveling messes when they are beaten because they don't want to die or deserve a second chance. I feel like that might be because there is something cathartic about seeing the bad guy humiliated.
2. He never actually limits it to just might, so to speak. That's what he does and what he cultivates around him since it's what he's most familiar with, but he's perfectly willing to accept other forms of strength, for example, Ike's tactical strength in knowing whom to put his faith in and leadership abilities or Naesala's cunning. In his convo with Naesala, he doesn't take any issue with Naesala trying to trick him; he just cuts through the bullshit. You very well could say I'm reading too much into stuff here, and I very well may be, but eh.

I'm not saying Ashnard is the best written villain of all time or completely unique, but in the context of FE, he's both rather unique and pretty well done.

Hypocrisy is an evil trait so Ashnard not being a hypocrite doesn't mean he's a better villain than those hypocrites. 

Where did he acknowledge Ike's tactical strength? 

Quote

Ashnard: Enough of your lies, crow. Even now, your beady eyes look to find a chink in my armor.

I don't see Ashnard being executed well at all. 

[bottlegnomes]

2 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

None of this makes Ashnard a more compelling villain than Surtr.

Compelling is subjective. I find him more compelling because his motivations interest me more. I find Surtr meh because his motivations are fairly common and his execution is pretty typical. What makes Surtr compelling to you? Serious question. I don't find a whole lot of depth to him.

 

3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Also, if he wanted to see if he's personally strong, then why is he not on the battlefield?

He led the charge against Crimea; he was the one who took the castle. He wanted to give the characters time to gather themselves to both let them be their best and to get as many people involved as possible so the dark god will be unleashed.

 

5 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I disagree, Lekain was executed much better than Ashnard. Leikain isn't just a corrupt noble, he's also fully committed to serving Ashera and in being a racist which isn't just because he's a horrible person but because racism was a product of the times and became worse due to Sephiran and Deghinsea's mishaps ironically. He's selfish, but he has other motivations that give him more depth and complexity. Also, Lekain was quite proactive behind the scenes, Ashnard wasn't, except for invading Crimea and getting the medallion. 

Fair points on Lekain. Though I do disagree on Ashnard. He built Daein into a country capable of taking on the others if nothing else. Though, as you point out, that is an issue a lot of people had with RD. It stripped a lot of the agency Ashnard had by making him a puppet of Sephiran. In PoR it's much more implied that he spearheaded a lot of those things.

 

8 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Starting wars don't help the poor and whatever trust Ashnard got should have faded away after seeing how badly the war was going. 

He's not Mother Theresa. He didn't want to just help the poor. He wanted to completely destroy the existing social structure that was in Tellius because he thought his vision was more fair. The war wasn't going badly for him. It might not have been going exactly as planned, but it was going exactly as he wanted.

 

9 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Seeing him getting betrayed by his former allies was more thrilling, especially since the two of them ended up dying, one to him and the other because of him. Ashnard doesn't have that going for him. 

I don't really find that a positive. Just because someone betrays a villain doesn't make it enjoyable. They simultaneously seemed overly justified with how excessively cruel Surtr was and still unearned because there's very little lead up. Helbindi had more, but his was pretty paint-by-numbers to me.

 

11 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

My point was, it is more satisfying to kill Surtr than Ashnard.

And I disagree. I don't think we need to belabor that point since it's entirely subjective.

 

12 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Also, if Ashnard wanted to really be the strongest, he'd have picked a fight with Begnion instead. Not preying on the weak. 

Crimea wasn't exactly weak. They were of similar status to Daein. He didn't attack Begnion because he knew it was a fools errand. He didn't want to be the strongest. He didn't have anything to prove to himself. I know that might sound like I'm contradicting myself, but with Ike he was indulging curiosity, not actively trying to prove he was superior. Attacking Begnion would've been an intellectual weak decision. It would've ended the war immediately with an utter defeat and would've meant the end of his endgame: Literally destroying the entire current societal structure of Tellius.

 

16 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

They obviously knew because Crimean soldiers invaded Crimea from Daein. 

Daein Soldier
G-General Rikard! Enemy reinforcements are approaching from the east!

Rikard
What?

Daein Soldier
It appears to be troops from Princess Crimea's army!

Rikard
The army that brushed aside our troops in Daein and defeated General Petrine at the Riven Bridge? They're marching towards us? Fantastic! I was getting bored hunting stragglers. Let's smash all of these curs and wrap ourselves in glory.

They basically knew when the enemies showed up, which is what I meant. They weren't getting frequent updates. By then, for those who didn't want to support, it was too late to, and as Rikard indicates, others more ascribed to Ashnard's ideals saw it as a challenge.

 

19 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Sothe didn't say he was competent and he's a kid so not the best judge.

I'm not talking tactically. Tactically, he was 6/7ths (maybe 3/4ths, but he didn't know Hatari existed) of the way to accomplishing what he wanted. It might not seem like good tactics to othe people, but that's kind of the point. Ashnard's motivations and actions are all largely internally consistent. 

For what I meant, I'll refer to @Interdimensional Observer's quote. Sothe seemed to think Ashnard wasn't a terrible ruler. Sothe is our best indication of how the general population viewed him. We as the player have far more information than any individual character or group does.

 

23 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Well, you asked me why I liked Surtr more and I already said my reasons. This chapter sold me on him being a more compelling villain. 

I'm just taking this as a discussion as the merits of each. All my points are meant more as me clarifying things I feel like you misunderstood about Ashnard. I don't mean that to sound condescending. I'm not trying to convince you he is better than Surtr.

 

25 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Hypocrisy is an evil trait so Ashnard not being a hypocrite doesn't mean he's a better villain than those hypocrites. 

I think we're thinking of what makes a good villain differently. It seems like you want someone who generates the strongest negative response or is the most evil. To me, the better villain is the better character in the villain role. I find Ashnard a much more interesting character than Surtr for the reasons I've stated, one being that he isn't solely self-serving evil, which seems diametrically opposed to what you're looking for.

 

29 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Where did he acknowledge Ike's tactical strength? 

It's never explicitly stated, but that he allows Ike to gather allies and build an army up. Yes it feeds into awakening the dark god, but it is also a tacit acknowledgement that being able to hit people the hardest isn't the only thing that determines strength. Ike's ability to gain allies and rely on them where he's not as adept is the primary strength that lets him get to Ashnard.

Regarding the Naesala quote, that's actually the exact one I had in mind when I said he cuts through the bullshit. I read that as matter-of-fact, not annoyed or anything. To me, it's just "We both know why we're here. Let's get on with it."

He also allows Izuka, a rather physically frail character, a very high station due to his intelligence.

 

33 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I don't see Ashnard being executed well at all. 

I get the points you've made, but I feel like you're missing the fundamental core of Ashnard's beliefs and character, and that that's painting your interpretation of his execution. For a sane person who wants to help the poor, conquer, win a war, or test his strength, yeah, his decisions don't make sense. But for someone whose sole goal is to create a world where people fight to the top through whatever means are at their disposal. He's decided the best way to do that is to unleash the dark god and return the world to a primal, chaotic state through the destruction that would bring. That's why we, or at least I, have been saying his goal is insane, since it'll probably end up killing everyone (it would have given what RD tells us and the circumstances, but he didn't know that), but it's not solely self-serving. This isn't motivated by him wanting to be at the top of that order, but by him feeling that the current order is unfair.

[bottlegnomes]

@Icelerate Everything past Rikard's last line should be outside the quote. Formatting got screwed up, and I can't edit the post. I really need to figure out that shit :\

Also, sorry if it seems like I'm repeating myself with asking what makes him compelling. It's just that I want to clarify for sure what you're looking for in a villain. I touched on that later, but I just wanted to explicitly clarify.

Edited September 15, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I think Surtr was very intimidating and hatable considering how he killed three sympathetic people whereas we are told of Ashnard's atrocities but don't directly see them. He also had plenty of battlefield presence which Ashnard lacked. 

Also, someone as evil and aggressive as Surtr resulted in him getting betrayed by everyone which is what will happen if you are aggressively stupid. Ashnard's aggressiveness was tolerated by people who had less of a connection to him than Surtr's accomplices. If I was a citizen of Muspel, it'd make a lot more sense for me to follow Surtr because Surtr doesn't abandon his country and set up a base in a foreign country while leaving his country with fewer forces than Crimea.  

Also, Surtr wanting to burn everyone who opposes him to the ground makes more sense than Ashnard wanting to drown everyone by reviving the dark god. After all, fire is an important part of Muspel's culture and Surtr's powers. Dark gods and floods are not important in Daein's culture so Ashnard's motive comes out of the blue. 

Gameplay wise, I found Surtr a lot more challenging on lunatic than I found Ashnard on hard mode so he lives up to his story hype better. 

I think you're stretching for criticism by saying floods have nothing to do with Daein's culture. I mean, you're not wrong (although flooding is relevant to Talrega specifically now that I think about it), but that's never touted as an important aspect of it. Hell I don't think they even knew the dark god and the flood were connected, nor would flooding have been the method of destruction had he succeeded in freeing Yune. It's like saying you don't like someone because their shoes are brown and the flag of their country is green.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Jotari