Fire Emblem and it's cliches: Do you think FE's plots are 'standard' or 'cliche' or 'boring'?

[Ottservia]

18 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Ike is secretly the son of Gawain, one of Daein's Great Riders. He may not be a prince, but Ike was no commoner.

 

He is considered a commoner because Mycen himself was a commoner. Mycen had to earn his title before it was striped from him.

 

Just like how Alm spent his early life training as a farmer, an actual job to make ends meet.

 

When the king of Gallia himself is willing to personally met you because of your father, that is a big deal.

 

And yet he is quite literally the only person able to wield the Ragnell, his father's sword. Sounds fairly chosen to me.

 

...Do you really believe he owns the fortress but somehow not the land it is standing on.

 

Mycen was barely considered a noble before he was banished to Ram village, and striped of his title. Plus Alm doesn't waltz into Rigel like he owns the place, he is hunted like an outlaw, because to his kingdom he is one, just like Ike.

 

Alm is treated like a peasant repeatedly, especially in Echoes,  and to emphasize this here are a bunch of quotes showing it.

 

Fernand: I only joined this damned army because YOU were leading it! And now you want me to take orders from some wretched farmchild?

Clive: This is no mere farmchild, Fernand! He has Sir Mycen’s blood!

Fernand: Mycen? Pah! Damn him AND his blood! They may sing of him as a hero, but no one even knows what wench the man sprang from! His entire story is a disgrace to the Zofian nobility! You need to invoke the name of that old man to control your men? Pathetic.

Clive: Enough!

Fernand: I lost my taste for this long ago. We were supposed to be a band of noble knights. United in purpose! Upholding a tradition! Restoring the old order to Zofia! Now the Deliverance is full of baseborn serfs trying to lord over us. Like your lieutenant Forsyth. Or that Python—true to his name, he is!

Clive: Both of them have proven themselves on the battlefield time and again! Are you suggesting I deny my men fair reward for their achievements? What incentive would they have then?! The damned army wouldn’t function! Hear me, Fernand. Hear me well. I know you have your reasons for closing your heart to the common folk. But please, for the sake of our ideals, you MUST think beyond them.

Fernand: No, Clive. I will not. I would rather die than kneel to some whelp who was birthed in the hay. Today we part ways for good and all. I am finished with you and your “Deliverance.” Farewell.

Clive: Fernand, wait—

Alm: Clive, shouldn’t you go after him?

Clive: …No. I knew this was coming—we’ve had no shortage of clashes lately. I cannot force him to see things as I do, so… Well, perhaps it’s better this way.

Alm: Clive… I know it’s not much in the way of comfort, but…I’ll do my best.

Clive: Thank you, Alm. We shall march on Zofia Castle just as soon as you feel we are prepared. I suppose you must still have many questions about the Deliverance. Feel free to ask around to any of the soldiers here.

 

 

Berkut: *sigh* You. Knight. Fernand, was it?

Fernand: Yes, my lord.

Berkut: You said the name of the Deliverance’s new leader is “Alm,” correct? And that he is of common birth? There is no mistake in this?

Fernand: None, my lord. Clive and the other fools believe he is Mycen’s grandson…

Berkut: Hmph. What nonsense. One is born either noble or common. This destiny cannot be changed. Has a sheep any hope of leading wolves? No!

 

 

Berkut: Hah! What’s the matter, farmboy? Afraid you won’t land a single blow?

Alm: The name is Alm—not “farmboy.”

Berkut: Oh, my mistake. Wait a second…

 

 

Berkut: You kept me waiting, Alm. I was starting to wonder if you’d actually come.

Alm: Berkut!

Berkut: That’s quite the little army you’ve assembled. I’m almost impressed. For a ragtag group of gathered scraps, the Deliverance actually looks the part.

Alm: ……

Berkut: Still, it seems you’ve all let a few meager successes go to your heads. Who are you to dare threaten Rigel’s borders? Lowborn fool. Do you truly fancy yourself the next king of Zofia?! You must learn your place!

Clive: You’ve got it all wrong, Berkut.

Fernand: Clive?

Clive: I’ve been at Alm’s side from the outset, watching all that he has done. He’s a brave warrior, and a good man worthy of the crown. He’s made such clear to me time and again.. The right of kings is not decided by blood or station. It lies in what a man believes. What keeps him up at night. It lies in a man’s actions!

Fernand: Enough already! You would throw away your pride as a Zofian noble and bow to a commoner?! I see now that the Clive I once knew is well and truly dead. Now it falls on me to bury him!

 

A lot of Ike's story was following in the footsteps of Alm, with the biggest difference being in the ending.

Y’know this is all well and good until you realize that Berkut was actually indeed right all along and that your noble birth does determine your place in the world cause if it weren’t for Alm’s noble bloodline, he would be unable to do any of the shit he does. That’s not implication either, it’s straight up fact. He can only wield the royal sword because he’s royalty. He can only wield Falchion because he’s the special chosen one by right of birth. He’s even got the birthmark to prove it. He was raised by Mycen because of Mycen’s connections to Rudolf. These things that define Alm as a character and his actions are not a result of working hard and proving someone can turn themselves from nothing into something(which is what he’s trying to prove to Berkut). It’s a result of him being born into the right bloodline which makes Berkut out to be right.

[Acacia Sgt]

Eh, just because one is born being able to go above most people doesn't mean they start there. The philosophy still applies to them.

It doesn't invalidate the effort Alm did. If it was him fresh out of Ram fighting Rudolf or Duma, he'd fail, special bloodline or not.

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Y’know this is all well and good until you realize that Berkut was actually indeed right all along and that your noble birth does determine your place in the world cause if it weren’t for Alm’s noble bloodline, he would be unable to do any of the shit he does. That’s not implication either, it’s straight up fact. He can only wield the royal sword because he’s royalty. He can only wield Falchion because he’s the special chosen one by right of birth. He’s even got the birthmark to prove it. He was raised by Mycen because of Mycen’s connections to Rudolf. These things that define Alm as a character and his actions are not a result of working hard and proving someone can turn themselves from nothing into something(which is what he’s trying to prove to Berkut). It’s a result of him being born into the right bloodline which makes Berkut out to be right.

For what it's worth, in the original Alm isn't necessarily the hero destined to save Valentia at all. Rudolph hopes that it'll be Valm that rises to face him and forge the new world, but the plan would work with anyone who is strong enough  to beat Rigel. The whole special destined birthmark and prophecy thing was an element of the remake (though funnily enough the birth mark was always there, it was just a literal normal birthmark in Gaiden).

Edited December 11, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Jotari said:

For what it's worth, in the original Alm isn't necessarily the hero destined to save Valentia at all. Rudolph hopes that it'll be Valm that rises to face him, but the plan would work with anyone. The whole special destined birthmark and prophecy thing was an element of the remake.

Don't know about the prophecy; but Alm still had the birthmark/brand in the original. Zeke recognizing it and joining Alm for it isn't something the remake added.

[Jotari]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Don't know about the prophecy; but Alm still had the birthmark/brand in the original. Zeke recognizing it and joining Alm for it isn't something the remake added.

You quoted me too soon! I was just adding that trivia into my post when you got me.

[Flere210]

First, being trained by Mycen is by itself a privilege few people have.

Second, no say that effort don't matter, we are saying that effort is relative if two random people, let's call them Naruto and Lee, put a similar amount of effort and one of them get much more out of it because he was born whit inherent advantages.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Flere210

[Ottservia]

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

For what it's worth, in the original Alm isn't necessarily the hero destined to save Valentia at all. Rudolph hopes that it'll be Valm that rises to face him and forge the new world, but the plan would work with anyone who is strong enough  to beat Rigel. The whole special destined birthmark and prophecy thing was an element of the remake (though funnily enough the birth mark was always there, it was just a literal normal birthmark in Gaiden).

Y’see this is why I stand by the opinion that Gaiden has a better plot than SoV and when the story of a remake is worse than the original(and a famicom game at that) then you have a problem. Like shit I thought stories were supposed to get better when you rewrote them.

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ogma doesn't own Talys Castle, Greil, from everything we can gather, does own it. It's not a lot of land, but it is land, that's the difference between a noble and a commoner.

I like how you completely ignored the part where I pointed out that Greil may own the building, but he doesn't own the land. Peasants owned their own homes, but they didn't own the land. 

 

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Every single on of them (except maybe Rhys, but only regards to combat) is more qualified than Ike. Gatrie and Shinon leave over this issue.

Boyd isn't, Gatrie isn't, Soren isn't, you have me with Oscar (but again, he doesn't want it), and Shinon isn't. 

Besides, my main point there was that inheriting a small mercenary company from being son of the boss is much, much less than being given an entire liberation army entirely on the basis of being a legendary knight/general's grandson. It's the mercenary equivalent of inheriting a forge because you're the blacksmith's son. 

 

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Obviously Alm isn't a commoner when he becomes King. Do you really, honestly, think that's what I was claiming? Or are you just trying to strawman me? I'm talking about how he functions during the story of the game. In which he's not a noble, he's raised as a commoner and treated like one. It's a plot twist that he's Rudolf's son and a noble, but during the course of the story this is not known. That's like saying Ike's not a commoner because he's granted a lord ship half way through the game.

No; when I said that, I was referring to Alm being Mycen's supposed grandson for most of the game; he has established status owing to a supposed birthright. Ike doesn't. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that; I thought I had been given that I had previously placed large emphasis on the Mycen's supposed grandson part of Alm's upbringing, and because I was responding to your comparison of Mycen and Greil. Mycen is still a knight. Greil isn't, and he lost that title before Ike was born. 

Yes; it's a plot twist that he's actually Rudolf's son. But he had been led to believe for his whole life that he was the grandson of a high-ranking and legendary Zofian knight, and all his status in parts 1-4 of the game stem from that supposed heritage. He is given command of an entire Liberation Army simply because he's Mycen's supposed grandson. By contrast, Ike is given command of the Crimean Liberation Army because Elincia has seen him lead and she trusts him. 

Also, you left out a key detail in one of my previous statements and responded with a counterargument that's rendered incorrect by the very statement that you left out. But I didn't ask if you were trying to strawman me. A little grace, please. 

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

The fact that Alm isn't ignored has nothing to do with him being secretly royalty. You're just proving that Ike is publicly viewed as a commoner which is not something I dispute.

Except for the fact that Alm being treated with status before Part 5 stems from being Mycen's supposed grandson: grandson of a noble => noble. Again, he is given command of a Liberation Army from being Mycen's supposed grandson. Ike, by contrast, isn't treated with any given status because he has none to speak of.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

No, it's not. But that doesn't change the fact that he is.

Except he isn't. Ike has no politically-relevant heritage to speak of. He can claim neither titles, status, nor land from being Son of Gawain: Gawain lost all that when he fled Daein with the Medallion and became Greil. As Greil himself said: "That was my name, once, but I threw it away". 

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

And it is to do with the fact that he's part of a magically relevant bloodline through his mother's side. But all of that was shoved over to Mist and then bizarrely ignored by the story (I peg it down to changes in the plans for Radiant Dawn).

What magic bloodline on his mother's side (and please don't answer; it's rhetorical)? Let's remind ourselves what Volke said was the thing that made Mist and Elena special: 

Volke It's because she can carry it safely. Actually, she's the only one who can. If you want proof, think back. Have you ever once touched it?

Ike ...No. I haven't. A long time ago, I remember reaching out for it while Mist had it in her hand... My father scolded me harshly. After that, I assumed...it was my sister's alone, and I never reached for it again.

Volke Compared to other people, the balance within your sister is extremely strong. Your mother, it seems, was the same. That's why they could bear it safely. The medallion is like a strong poison. It takes the worst aspects of a person and magnifies them a thousandfold. Greil touched it only once, and it drove him to complete madness.

Ike So that's what you meant when you said he went berserk?

Volke That's right. Beorc and laguz are made up of two forces: balance and chaos. In this, there is no difference between us. It is the proportion of balance to chaos that determines how much the medallion
affects a person. In that sense, it predicts how much harm that person might do.

The reason Mist and Elena are unaffected by the medallion has nothing to do with a "magic bloodline"; Elena herself was just an ordinary priestess. The reason that they can hold the medallion safely is that they have enough balance within them that the increase in chaos doesn't render them berserk. Similarly, but on the opposite end, the Medallion doesn't make Ashnard any crazier in Hard Mode because Ashnard can't get any crazier. 

 

Anyway, I hope that cleared things up. 

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Ike is secretly the son of Gawain, one of Daein's Great Riders. He may not be a prince, but Ike was no commoner.

Yet again, I respond with the Greil quote that says it best: "That was my name, once, but I threw it away." It's weird how much I keep having to bring up this point and you guys keep ignoring it, so I'll say it again in bold, italicize and underline: Greil lost all titles, status, and lands when he fled Daein with the Medallion and became the outlaw Greil. Ike was born and raised with no land, titles or status: a commoner. 

 

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

He is considered a commoner because Mycen himself was a commoner. Mycen had to earn his title before it was stripped from him.

That detail was added in Shadows of Valentia if I recall correctly. We were explicitly talking about Gaiden Alm, and it's the "title was stripped from him" part that I agree with. The son of a peasant-turned-noble is a noble. The son of a noble-turned-peasant is a peasant. 

 

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Just like how Alm spent his early life training as a farmer, an actual job to make ends meet.

Again: was that in Gaiden too, or just Echoes?

 

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

When the king of Gallia himself is willing to personally met you because of your father, that is a big deal.

Caineghis was willing to personally meet because of Elincia. Yes; he did also want to see Greil, as Greil was a dear friend of his from Greil's days hiding from Daein as a commoner in Gallia. Greil was already an outlaw without title, land or status by the time he and Caineghis met. Greil being a friend of Caineghis says nothing about Ike's political status (or in this case lack thereof). 

 

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

And yet he is quite literally the only person able to wield the Ragnell, his father's sword. Sounds fairly chosen to me.

Ragnell wasn't Greil's sword; Ettard was. The Black Knight gave Ragnell to Greil because he wanted to beat Greil in a swordfight (and so Greil would actually stand a chance). Only Ike could use it because Ike took it afterwards and hid it away so he could use it against the Black Knight. After that, it's a matter of gameplay & story segregation. 

 

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

...Do you really believe he owns the fortress but somehow not the land it is standing on.

Well; you are responding to this point. I shall answer: yes. You need a title to own land, and Greil lacks any. Plus, once again, peasants owned their own buildings, but not the land on which they sat. There was a thing in the Middle Ages called the Common Land: the idea basically being that you could build your own house anywhere and cultivate the fields. You just had to pay taxes to the local lord if you built your house on land they own. 

 

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Mycen was barely considered a noble before he was banished to Ram village, and striped of his title. Plus Alm doesn't waltz into Rigel like he owns the place, he is hunted like an outlaw, because to his kingdom he is one, just like Ike.

Alm is treated like a peasant repeatedly, especially in Echoes,  and to emphasize this here are a bunch of quotes showing it.

I agree about the Mycen bit, but again: Echoes. We had been talking about Gaiden. Echoes introduced a bunch of stuff to make Alm more like Ike.

"Plus Alm doesn't just walk into Rigel like he owns the place" Yeah; because he's an enemy general! He's fighting for Zofia for the entire game up until the plot twist. And since you keep referring to Echoes: once Alm's true heritage is revealed, he does own the place, and everyone in the place except Berkut treats Alm like he owns the place. 

Ike, too, is an enemy general when he enters Daein. I don't see how them entering their ancestral homes and being declared enemies because they are enemies of said ancestral home has any relevance to this. 

Again, Echoes. Ferdinand and Berkut didn't exist in Gaiden, and those are all Ferdinand and Berkut quotes. 

 

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

A lot of Ike's story was following in the footsteps of Alm, with the biggest difference being in the ending.

Not really. The whole point of Ike was to be a brand new type of FE protagonist who isn't following in the footsteps of any previous FE lord, and it shows. 

[Ottservia]

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Eh, just because one is born being able to go above most people doesn't mean they start there. The philosophy still applies to them.

It doesn't invalidate the effort Alm did. If it was him fresh out of Ram fighting Rudolf or Duma, he'd fail, special bloodline or not.

Y’know I would agree with this if it wasn’t explicitly stated that the only reason Alm can wield the royal sword or enter the Rigelian vault is because he is of rigelian royal descent. This means that his hard work has almost nothing to do with the fact that he can do those things. If he was a commoner, he wouldn’t be able to wield the royal sword or enter the vault no matter how hard he tried and there lies the problem. Like it completely invalidates his hard work because it doesn’t matter if he worked hard or not. If he were a commoner he would be unable to do it no matter how much effort he put in. 

[Acacia Sgt]

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Y’know I would agree with this if it wasn’t explicitly stated that the only reason Alm can wield the royal sword or enter the Rigelian vault is because he is of rigelian royal descent. This means that his hard work has almost nothing to do with the fact that he can do those things. If he was a commoner, he wouldn’t be able to wield the royal sword or enter the vault no matter how hard he tried and there lies the problem. Like it completely invalidates his hard work because it doesn’t matter if he worked hard or not. If he were a commoner he would be unable to do it no matter how much effort he put in. 

Again, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if he's the only one who can wield the sword or enter the place. If he didn't work hard to be ready for it, he'd have died instead.

Just like, for example, a Marth fresh out of Talys would've died against Medeus, Falchion or not Falchion.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Flere210]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Again, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if he's the only one who can wield the sword or enter the place. If he didn't work hard to be ready for it, he'd have died instead.

Just like, for example, a Marth fresh out of Talys would've died against Medeus, Falchion or not Falchion.

And most iterations of Link would stand no chance againist Ganon at the beginning of the game, but they are still the chosen one.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

And most iterations of Link would stand no chance againist Ganon at the beginning of the game, but they are still the chosen one.

Yes, that is how his world operates. He may be the Chosen One; but if he doesn't put effort and work hard, then it's just a fancy title.

Same thing applies for FE worlds and their special bloodlines.

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Again, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if he's the only one who can wield the sword or enter the place. If he didn't work hard to be ready for it, he'd have died instead.

Just like, for example, a Marth fresh out of Talys would've died against Medeus, Falchion or not Falchion.

You misunderstand my point. The fact that he’s the only one who can wield the sword is not the issue it’s the reason why he can. Alm can only wield the royal sword because he’s of royal blood. If he wasn’t then he wouldn’t be able to wield it plain and simple. It doesn’t matter how much effort he puts in if he wasn’t royal he wouldn’t be able to wield such a special sword. The royal sword essentially makes it objective fact that commoners are lesser than royals because they cannot wield it. You could be the strongest man in the world but if you are not of royal blood then you cannot wield that sword. That’s just a fact. His hard work does not allow him to wield the royal sword. His blood does. His hard work may allow him to beat up desaix and reclaim Zofia but it does not allow him to gain entry into the Rigelian vault which houses the only weapon capable of slaying Duma. Without his Royal blood, he could never kill Duma meaning his hard work in that instance is completely meaningless from a thematic standpoint. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Ottservia

[Acacia Sgt]

Yes yes, you've made quite clear before that it clashes with the attempted message of "hard work vs entitlement" the game does. Which is why it's mostly, or exclusively, with Alm you have the problem with; and not... practically every other FE Lord.

The thing is, you're judging it from the perspective of our world and rules. For example, I'm left-handed. For centuries, being left-handed gave you an edge in things like combat, due to the unpredictability and unfamiliarity it was for the right-handed majority. Is that unfair that I could've possessed such an advantage in ancient times? Perhaps; but likely not. More so since what matters now is that in this day and age the weapons of today stopped needing your right/left handedness to operate.

FE simply takes it to the extreme, where you can have stuff like powerful beings can bless others, making them have benefits over people that don't. Some beings have things like shifting forms like the Laguz, or other kinds of abilities, like the Elemental Tribes in Fates. It's how their worlds works. They won't develop the same mindsets and ideologies our world did, because they did it with different things at their disposal. It's not unique to FE. It's a staple of fiction.

The thing is, the message of the game doesn't get invalidated. It also goes beyond it. Ferdinand's complains about a commoner leading the Deliverance doesn't stop being wrong because the "commoner" ended up being not. Alm having an ancestor blessed by a dragon doesn't invalidate the rest of humanity. No man's an island. Alm being entitled to rule is meaningless if there's no people to rule, which could might as well happen if he were to follow the example of Ferdinand, or Berkut, or Lima IV. Society will always be structured. There will be roles to fill; and not all will be on equal standing. It's the same in our world or theirs. Sometimes, it's not about every or almost every post being free to everyone. It's about that in addition to respect and well treatment, with no discrimination for it.

A farmer unable to become King doesn't invalidate his ability to rise to Army General. A King entitled to his post doesn't earn him the right to abuse it or his subjects. Someone granted a weapon only they can use doesn't make them better or above unless; and this is the key part here... they let them.

It boils down to the ever present problem: Most of the time, it's not the system, it's how we use it. If a system looks bad, it's very likely due to the people abusing it, not so much the system itself. We humans have come a long way... but we still have a long way to go.

So the point is, the message isn't invalidated. It just doesn't apply or is tailored to be fully to our world and expectations, only to theirs.

It's a standard or cliché... that I don't mind, ultimately. It's fiction. I know to expect it won't be like reality.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Sentinel07]

I'm of the mind that a standard plot works just fine as long as it has good execution.

Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance are both stories that I think are very good, mostly because they execute their simplistic concepts very well.

[Ottservia]

58 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yes yes, you've made quite clear before that it clashes with the attempted message of "hard work vs entitlement" the game does. Which is why it's mostly, or exclusively, with Alm you have the problem with; and not... practically every other FE Lord.

The thing is, you're judging it from the perspective of our world and rules. For example, I'm left-handed. For centuries, being left-handed gave you an edge in things like combat, due to the unpredictability and unfamiliarity it was for the right-handed majority. Is that unfair that I could've possessed such an advantage in ancient times? Perhaps; but likely not. More so since what matters now is that in this day and age the weapons of today stopped needing your right/left handedness to operate.

FE simply takes it to the extreme, where you can have stuff like powerful beings can bless others, making them have benefits over people that don't. Some beings have things like shifting forms like the Laguz, or other kinds of abilities, like the Elemental Tribes in Fates. It's how their worlds works. They won't develop the same mindsets and ideologies our world did, because they did it with different things at their disposal. It's not unique to FE. It's a staple of fiction.

The thing is, the message of the game doesn't get invalidated. It also goes beyond it. Ferdinand's complains about a commoner leading the Deliverance doesn't stop being wrong because the "commoner" ended up being not. Alm having an ancestor blessed by a dragon doesn't invalidate the rest of humanity. No man's an island. Alm being entitled to rule is meaningless if there's no people to rule, which could might as well happen if he were to follow the example of Ferdinand, or Berkut, or Lima IV. Society will always be structured. There will be roles to fill; and not all will be on equal standing. It's the same in our world or theirs. Sometimes, it's not about every or almost every post being free to everyone. It's about that in addition to respect and well treatment, with no discrimination for it.

A farmer unable to become King doesn't invalidate his ability to rise to Army General. A King entitled to his post doesn't earn him the right to abuse it or his subjects. Someone granted a weapon only they can use doesn't make them better or above unless; and this is the key part here... they let them.

It boils down to the ever present problem: Most of the time, it's not the system, it's how we use it. If a system looks bad, it's very likely due to the people abusing it, not so much the system itself. We humans have come a long way... but we still have a long way to go.

So the point is, the message isn't invalidated. It just doesn't apply or is tailored to be fully to our world and expectations, only to theirs.

It's a standard or cliché... that I don't mind, ultimately. It's fiction. I know to expect it won't be like reality.

Okay how do I explain this to you? The game’s message is: “A man’s worth should not be judged by the station of his birth but rather his hard work and the ideals he chooses to uphold” am I not wrong in saying this? That theme is the core of the conflict between Alm and Berkut where Berkut thinks a man’s worth is determined By the station of their birth while Alm argues the opposite. Alm is our protagonist so his character arc and ideals should reflect the themes of the narrative. Through the conflict between these two, it is concluded by the game that Alm is right as noted by Fernand’s final words and Berkut driving himself to madness. The problem though is that Alm is incorrect because he himself contradicts the very ideals he says he strives for. In the end Berkut is right because Alm’s worth is determined by the station of his birth because the royal sword dictates only royals can wield it and Alm(and Celica) are the only ones who can wield it because they are of royal descent making him objectively better than a commoner by the game’s logic. He’s not better than Tobin because he worked harder, no, he’s better than Tobin because he was born better and no amount of work on Tobin’s end is going to change that which contradicts the core message of the story. Alm’s blood ties should not matter if you want this theme to work. 
 

It doesn’t matter if he’s royal or not, he should be treated the same as everyone else by the story’s rules regardless of any blood ties he may have otherwise it contradicts the the message. Meaning, him being treated special by the royal sword because of his royal blood is a contradiction to the story’s themes 

[Julian Solo]

You can’t even get into Rigel without royal blood of both countries Sov was weird.

[Jotari]

12 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Y’see this is why I stand by the opinion that Gaiden has a better plot than SoV and when the story of a remake is worse than the original(and a famicom game at that) then you have a problem. Like shit I thought stories were supposed to get better when you rewrote them.

In Echoes defense, most of the awkward writing in that regard is an attempt to cover a massive plot hole in the original. Namely why didn't Rudolf just kill Duma himself.

 

9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I like how you completely ignored the part where I pointed out that Greil may own the building, but he doesn't own the land. Peasants owned their own homes, but they didn't own the land. 

What makes you so sure he doesn't own the surrounding lands? And even if he doesn't, that castle is still a lot more than Mycen's single house.

Boyd isn't, Gatrie isn't, Soren isn't, you have me with Oscar (but again, he doesn't want it), and Shinon isn't. 

Besides, my main point there was that inheriting a small mercenary company from being son of the boss is much, much less than being given an entire liberation army entirely on the basis of being a legendary knight/general's grandson. It's the mercenary equivalent of inheriting a forge because you're the blacksmith's son. 

And I herring an army is like inheriting a much larger forge.

No; when I said that, I was referring to Alm being Mycen's supposed grandson for most of the game; he has established status owing to a supposed birthright. Ike doesn't. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that; I thought I had been given that I had previously placed large emphasis on the Mycen's supposed grandson part of Alm's upbringing, and because I was responding to your comparison of Mycen and Greil. Mycen is still a knight. Greil isn't, and he lost that title before Ike was born. 

 

Yes; it's a plot twist that he's actually Rudolf's son. But he had been led to believe for his whole life that he was the grandson of a high-ranking and legendary Zofian knight, and all his status in parts 1-4 of the game stem from that supposed heritage. He is given command of an entire Liberation Army simply because he's Mycen's supposed grandson. By contrast, Ike is given command of the Crimean Liberation Army because Elincia has seen him lead and she trusts him. 

Also, you left out a key detail in one of my previous statements and responded with a counterargument that's rendered incorrect by the very statement that you left out. But I didn't ask if you were trying to strawman me. A little grace, please. 

Alright well I misinterpreted what you meant there. Still, Mycen is clearly not living the life of a noble. Alm is entitled to nothing Mycen owns except that one house. He gets the liberation barmy command as a political stunt, not because anyone perceives he has any right to it by blood.

Except for the fact that Alm being treated with status before Part 5 stems from being Mycen's supposed grandson: grandson of a noble => noble. Again, he is given command of a Liberation Army from being Mycen's supposed grandson. Ike, by contrast, isn't treated with any given status because he has none to speak of.

 

Except he isn't. Ike has no politically-relevant heritage to speak of. He can claim neither titles, status, nor land from being Son of Gawain: Gawain lost all that when he fled Daein with the Medallion and became Greil. As Greil himself said: "That was my name, once, but I threw it away". 

He gets treated with the status as the grandson of a hero, not as someone who is noble in their own right. There's a difference. The same happens with Ike. As pointed out he gets a personal audience with a king because he's Griel's son. Mycen's supposed peerage has not passed to Alm. Alms children (had their been no war) would have continued to live in Ram village and for generations they could continue to claim they were defended from a legendary warrior but it would not actually grant them anything.

What magic bloodline on his mother's side (and please don't answer; it's rhetorical)? Let's remind ourselves what Volke said was the thing that made Mist and Elena special: 

Volke It's because she can carry it safely. Actually, she's the only one who can. If you want proof, think back. Have you ever once touched it?

Ike ...No. I haven't. A long time ago, I remember reaching out for it while Mist had it in her hand... My father scolded me harshly. After that, I assumed...it was my sister's alone, and I never reached for it again.

Volke Compared to other people, the balance within your sister is extremely strong. Your mother, it seems, was the same. That's why they could bear it safely. The medallion is like a strong poison. It takes the worst aspects of a person and magnifies them a thousandfold. Greil touched it only once, and it drove him to complete madness.

Ike So that's what you meant when you said he went berserk?

Volke That's right. Beorc and laguz are made up of two forces: balance and chaos. In this, there is no difference between us. It is the proportion of balance to chaos that determines how much the medallion
affects a person. In that sense, it predicts how much harm that person might do.

The reason Mist and Elena are unaffected by the medallion has nothing to do with a "magic bloodline"; Elena herself was just an ordinary priestess. The reason that they can hold the medallion safely is that they have enough balance within them that the increase in chaos doesn't render them berserk. Similarly, but on the opposite end, the Medallion doesn't make Ashnard any crazier in Hard Mode because Ashnard can't get any crazier. 

Well then it's a massive coincidence mother and daughter possess the exact same, incredibly rare trait and Elena is completely inconsequential to the larger plot (I mean, even more so than Mist already is).

Anyway, I hope that cleared things up. 

Yet again, I respond with the Greil quote that says it best: "That was my name, once, but I threw it away." It's weird how much I keep having to bring up this point and you guys keep ignoring it, so I'll say it again in bold, italicize and underline: Greil lost all titles, status, and lands when he fled Daein with the Medallion and became the outlaw Greil. Ike was born and raised with no land, titles or status: a commoner. 

So was Alm.

That detail was added in Shadows of Valentia if I recall correctly. We were explicitly talking about Gaiden Alm, and it's the "title was stripped from him" part that I agree with. The son of a peasant-turned-noble is a noble. The son of a noble-turned-peasant is a peasant. 

 

Again: was that in Gaiden too, or just Echoes?

Echoes didn't pull it's expanded script out of its ass. Alm was clearly living in a small village from the start and not a castle. That was not a retcon. The original Gaiden was in no way suggesting Alms heritage was noble. As minimalist as it's story telling is, it actually goes out of its way to make that fact clear. Alm was not given the Lord class like Marth and literally every subsequent protagonist for the next eighteen years.

Caineghis was willing to personally meet because of Elincia. Yes; he did also want to see Greil, as Greil was a dear friend of his from Greil's days hiding from Daein as a commoner in Gallia. Greil was already an outlaw without title, land or status by the time he and Caineghis met. Greil being a friend of Caineghis says nothing about Ike's political status (or in this case lack thereof). 

It's a status of being a descendent of a hero.

Ragnell wasn't Greil's sword; Ettard was. The Black Knight gave Ragnell to Greil because he wanted to beat Greil in a swordfight (and so Greil would actually stand a chance). Only Ike could use it because Ike took it afterwards and hid it away so he could use it against the Black Knight. After that, it's a matter of gameplay & story segregation. 

 

Well; you are responding to this point. I shall answer: yes. You need a title to own land, and Greil lacks any. Plus, once again, peasants owned their own buildings, but not the land on which they sat. There was a thing in the Middle Ages called the Common Land: the idea basically being that you could build your own house anywhere and cultivate the fields. You just had to pay taxes to the local lord if you built your house on land they own. 

This raises the question if if Griel is paying taxes to anyone and how in the world he managed to get such a lavish fortress for himself when he was basically an asylum seeker.

I agree about the Mycen bit, but again: Echoes. We had been talking about Gaiden. Echoes introduced a bunch of stuff to make Alm more like Ike.

"Plus Alm doesn't just walk into Rigel like he owns the place" Yeah; because he's an enemy general! He's fighting for Zofia for the entire game up until the plot twist. And since you keep referring to Echoes: once Alm's true heritage is revealed, he does own the place, and everyone in the place except Berkut treats Alm like he owns the place. 

Ike, too, is an enemy general when he enters Daein. I don't see how them entering their ancestral homes and being declared enemies because they are enemies of said ancestral home has any relevance to this. 

It's relevant to Ike and Alm being similar characters conceptually.

Again, Echoes. Ferdinand and Berkut didn't exist in Gaiden, and those are all Ferdinand and Berkut quotes. 

 

Not really. The whole point of Ike was to be a brand new type of FE protagonist who isn't following in the footsteps of any previous FE lord, and it shows. 

Both are raised as commoners. Both are raised by well renowned heroic warriors trying to live a quiet life. Both of them are secretly from the hostile nation and are unaware of it. Both of them invade their homeland. Both of them fight a king with social dawanistic philosophy. Both of them have the "Hero" class. They are not identical, but there are obvious parallels between them that other Fire Emblem lords lack.

Some responses in bold. But tldr, the entire thing can be summed up very simply.

Nobility comes from two sources.

A) Perception by society

B) Genetics

Alm and Ike both have the genetics of nobility bit are perceived as commoners by society. This, I consider, is inarguable. We can debate which of them is 'more' noble or 'more' common on the spectrum, but ultimately it is a binary and it comes back to this.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

28 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay how do I explain this to you? The game’s message is: “A man’s worth should not be judged by the station of his birth but rather his hard work and the ideals he chooses to uphold” am I not wrong in saying this? That theme is the core of the conflict between Alm and Berkut where Berkut thinks a man’s worth is determined By the station of their birth while Alm argues the opposite. Alm is our protagonist so his character arc and ideals should reflect the themes of the narrative. Through the conflict between these two, it is concluded by the game that Alm is right as noted by Fernand’s final words and Berkut driving himself to madness. The problem though is that Alm is incorrect because he himself contradicts the very ideals he says he strives for. In the end Berkut is right because Alm’s worth is determined by the station of his birth because the royal sword dictates only royals can wield it and Alm(and Celica) are the only ones who can wield it because they are of royal descent making him objectively better than a commoner by the game’s logic. He’s not better than Tobin because he worked harder, no, he’s better than Tobin because he was born better and no amount of work on Tobin’s end is going to change that which contradicts the core message of the story. Alm’s blood ties should not matter if you want this theme to work. 
 

It doesn’t matter if he’s royal or not, he should be treated the same as everyone else by the story’s rules regardless of any blood ties he may have otherwise it contradicts the the message. Meaning, him being treated special by the royal sword because of his royal blood is a contradiction to the story’s themes 

Once again, it's not invalidated. Berkut and Alm belong to the same station; but while Berkut took it for granted, Alm worked to become the better of the two. Having a special bloodline means nothing if you don't work and nurture it. Alm's worth is never just his bloodline and the perks that come from it, it's also judged by his actions whole-game-long. If anything, he gives us the message that even those that are born with privileges and advantages must not rest in their laurels. Their worth can still come into question. That's what people like Lima IV teaches us. His privileges of having the Zofian bloodline did him no favors when his attitude led to Desaix's revolt.

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Once again, it's not invalidated. Berkut and Alm belong to the same station; but while Berkut took it for granted, Alm worked to become the better of the two. Having a special bloodline means nothing if you don't work and nurture it. Alm's worth is never just his bloodline and the perks that come from it, it's also judged by his actions whole-game-long. If anything, he gives us the message that even those that are born with privileges and advantages must not rest in their laurels. Their worth can still come into question. That's what people like Lima IV teaches us. His privileges of having the Zofian bloodline did him no favors when his attitude led to Desaix's revolt.

While that is a fine message to have, it’s a different message from what we were discussing. I won’t deny that the story has that theme but the other message is still contradicted. Alm’s worth lies in his lineage that is a fact. Yeah he’s a more virtuous person than Berkut and I agree that he uses his power to make the world better instead of claiming it selfishly but the fact of the matter is that the Alm says(explicitly and multiple times) that birthright does not matter except the fact that it does cause if he was not born into Rigelian Royalty he would not be able to save the world. If he had not been born into Rigelian royalty, then the royal sword would be useless to him and he would have to rely on the his own strength rather than the strength of his lineage. If he was not born into Rigelian royalty, he would not be in the situation he is in. The circumstances surrounding his birth are a major factor of his worth as a person in the world which should not be the case if you want to tell this kind of story. He’s just a hypocrite plain and simple.
 

honestly if you simply change the requirements of the royal sword from “must have royal blood” to “must be pure of heart” or something like that then all of my problems regarding this aspect of the narrative are fixed(there are other way worse aspects of the narrative trust me on that). Because that not only fixes the thematic contractions, it also adds more depth to the other major standing theme of the story which it also completely fails to deliver on.

[Acacia Sgt]

Alm is just one man. The message doesn't get invalidated just because he can't follow it to the letter himself. FE since Day 1 has operated on worlds where true equality won't be reached... and honestly, why should it be? We should aim for equity, not equality... and then some aim for justice, not just stick with equity.

As long as beings like dragons elevate humans above the rest, there is no true equality anymore. Doesn't mean they shouldn't try to reach equity between them.

It's a theme I think should always be prevalent in FE, even if it some may see it as boring or cliché.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Some responses in bold. But tldr, the entire thing can be summed up very simply.

Nobility comes from two sources.

A) Perception by society

B) Genetics

Alm and Ike both have the genetics of nobility bit are perceived as commoners by society. This, I consider, is inarguable. We can debate which of them is 'more' noble or 'more' common on the spectrum, but ultimately it is a binary and it comes back to this.

I suppose, but, as I said, the key difference between them, plot twist aside, is that Ike's heritage is irrelevant thanks to Gawain fleeing Daein and becoming Greil.

The whole point of Ike was to be brand new in terms of him being just a commoner, so either everyone in IS's development team had amnesia of Gaiden, or they consider Alm, as written back then, to not have been a commoner, as Ike was considered to be the first and only for a very long time (I don't know; is Byleth still just a mercenary's son, or is there some plot twist about his heritage? I haven't gotten far enough into Three Houses yet). 

I will, however, just respond to two of the points you made that I found particularly interesting:

Quote

The reason Mist and Elena are unaffected by the medallion has nothing to do with a "magic bloodline"; Elena herself was just an ordinary priestess. The reason that they can hold the medallion safely is that they have enough balance within them that the increase in chaos doesn't render them berserk. Similarly, but on the opposite end, the Medallion doesn't make Ashnard any crazier in Hard Mode because Ashnard can't get any crazier. 

Well then it's a massive coincidence mother and daughter possess the exact same, incredibly rare trait and Elena is completely inconsequential to the larger plot (I mean, even more so than Mist already is).

Not really, or it would be if the story hadn't placed a large emphasis on key character traits of both Mist and Elena when it came to the Medallion: 

Ike's only memories of his mother are of her kindness. Considering Radiant Dawn reveals that his early memories had been suppressed, it says a lot that that managed to still poke through. Both Mist and Elena are notably kind-hearted, gentle souls and the story points this out to indicate that they have especially strong balance. It's a case of like mother, like daughter. 

Quote

Well; you are responding to this point. I shall answer: yes. You need a title to own land, and Greil lacks any. Plus, once again, peasants owned their own buildings, but not the land on which they sat. There was a thing in the Middle Ages called the Common Land: the idea basically being that you could build your own house anywhere and cultivate the fields. You just had to pay taxes to the local lord if you built your house on land they own. 

This raises the question if if Griel is paying taxes to anyone and how in the world he managed to get such a lavish fortress for himself when he was basically an asylum seeker.

He probably is. We're never given specifics, but one early plot point is that the Greil Mercenaries are incredibly overworked in order to make ends meet; it's to the point where Greil can't actually enforce his punishment of suspending Ike, Boyd, Oscar and Rhys simply because the company has been hired for so many jobs at that time. 

At first glance, I certainly would call it lavish; especially compared to a farm house. However, it is by far and away the smallest fortified structure we ever see in Path of Radiance; the abandoned fort in Gallia is larger. It is certainly very modest by Tellius standards. 

As for how he could afford it, that answer is never given, but there are a number of ways I could plausibly see him doing so. Caineghis could've given Greil the money so he could start fresh in Crimea, it could've been leftover funds from whatever he still had left when he fled Daein, he could've sold the armour and weapons of the assassins that were sent to kill him and retrieve the medallion, he could've started out with just a simple home and gradually added to it as he made more money from mercenary work. Or it could've been any combination of the above. 

[Ottservia]

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Alm is just one man. The message doesn't get invalidated just because he can't follow it to the letter himself. FE since Day 1 has operated on worlds where true equality won't be reached... and honestly, why should it be? We should aim for equity, not equality... and then some aim for justice, not just stick with equity.

It's a theme I think should always be prevalent in FE, even if it some may see it as boring or cliché.

Yeah but he’s the focus of the story and the one who drives that thematic point home. I don’t count the other characters because they don’t play as significant role in the story as Alm does. I will admit some supports that play into this theme(like PythonxClive from the DLC) are actually really good and have a lot of nuance to them. However, Alm(and Clive to an extent) is used as the central vehicle by the story to convey that theme not Gray, Tobin, Python, or Forscyth. They don’t play a big enough of a role to really make an impact. This means Alm is the one carrying all the weight in being the one to convey that message. He’s our protagonist after all. If anyone should embody the themes of the narrative to a tee, it’s him.

Also I don’t find any narrative theme cliche or boring cause every theme or message has been told once before. That’s just a fact, I care more about the execution more than anything else.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ottservia

[Eltosian Kadath]

26 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose, but, as I said, the key difference between them, plot twist aside, is that Ike's heritage is irrelevant thanks to Gawain fleeing Daein and becoming Greil.

If it were irrelevant it wouldn't be there. The difference is Ike rejects nobility while Alm embraces it, not only the nobility they both posses by birthright, but the nobility they earned through their actions.

 

30 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

 

The whole point of Ike was to be brand new in terms of him being just a commoner, so either everyone in IS's development team had amnesia of Gaiden, or they consider Alm, as written back then, to not have been a commoner, as Ike was considered to be the first and only for a very long time (I don't know; is Byleth still just a mercenary's son, or is there some plot twist about his heritage? I haven't gotten far enough into Three Houses yet). 

Are you basing this off of some interview or developer discussion? Do you have a link? The only interview I have seen that mention Ike in such terms is careful to qualify this as unique to the games that have come out in the west, which would excluded Gaiden from their consideration, but my research about what was said by the people who made Path of Radiance was not exhaustive, and I could have missed something. Alm and Ike share so many characteristics that it is hard not to see Ike as an attempt to have a character like Alm that doesn't come off as incredibly hypocritical in the ending as @Ottservia has been pointing out.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 

Not really, or it would be if the story hadn't placed a large emphasis on key character traits of both Mist and Elena when it came to the Medallion: 

Ike's only memories of his mother are of her kindness. Considering Radiant Dawn reveals that his early memories had been suppressed, it says a lot that that managed to still poke through. Both Mist and Elena are notably kind-hearted, gentle souls and the story points this out to indicate that they have especially strong balance. It's a case of like mother, like daughter. 

 

 

My issue on the Elena Mist thing is that their ability to touch the medallion never comes into practice at all in the story. You could remove Mist from the plot and basically nothing changes as anyone can carry the medallion by wrapping it in a bit of cloth. I suspect Mist was originally designed to have a much more crucial role in that regard but her story was altered and moved to Micaiah when they decided they'd need to release the intended story as two games.

 

Spoiler

And also yes, there is a plot twist regarding Byleth. Byleth is another character that very much follows the Alm-Ike set up as a character.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jotari