A Recurring JRPG Trope: Clueless Chick Magnet

[vanguard333]

So, I was recently watching some footage of both Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Encore and the Final Fantasy 7 remake, and the footage got me thinking of a trope that's in a lot of JRPGs (and other games besides) that's a bit of a pet-peeve of mine. TVTropes calls it Clueless Chick Magnet (link below). 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CluelessChickMagnet

My issue is less with the trope itself, and more with the way it's implemented: our smart, somewhat dorky young male protagonist (and it is always a guy; I've never seen the gender-swapped version of this trope), during his adventures, finds himself surrounded with beautiful women; all of whom develop romantic attraction for him, with the possible exception being one woman that's attracted to the protagonist's bumbling sidekick, and the protagonist is always seemingly oblivious to this.

I realize I may have just unintentionally given the definition of the trope, but my point is that it always plays out the same way, with the same old jokes, over and over again, to the point where it's almost as common as the protagonist being a swordsman, and I'm tired of it. 

My other problem with it is quite simple: who can relate to it? Seriously; who in real life has the issue: "Woe is me, all these girls are batting their eyes at me and I'm too clueless to notice"? Even in the highly unlikely event that someone can relate to it in real life, they'd have no idea because they'd be oblivious to it by the very definition of the trope. One could of course argue that it's not supposed to be relatable; it's supposed to be wish-fulfillment/escapism. I would then say that my problem with that argument is that the trope's become so prevalent that it's being used even when the protagonist is not an escapist character in any other sense. I'm about to use an example outside of video games, but please bear with me for a moment as I feel it best illustrates my point:

One show I absolutely loved as a kid was this anime called Spider Riders. It was unique among anime in that it was a joint-project between a Japanese animation studio and a Canadian animation studio, and it was also unique in being the only anime I had ever watched for a very long time. The show unfortunately did have this trope: of the three female main characters, two of them: Corona and Aqune, both displayed obvious romantic feelings for the completely clueless protagonist Hunter Steele, and while the third: Princess Sparkle, didn't, she was just eight years old. What made it bad in this show was that, in every other regard, Hunter Steele was not an escapist protagonist; he, quite refreshingly, was almost the opposite:

The show opens with him going from our world: the "Outer World" to the hidden subterranean magical "Inner World". However, he doesn't accidently find it because he's special; he sought out to find to prove his late grandfather's stories about the Inner World were true. After a series of accidents following entering the Inner World, he ends up becoming part of the Spider Riders: an elite order of warriors who ride giant spiders into battle, and reality ensues at every turn. He completely sucks because he has no combat experience, and he routinely has his ass handed to him both during training and in actual combat. He only ever wins due to quick-thinking, help from others, or power-ups in the form of magical artifacts called Oracle Keys. He is routinely called out on for his impulsiveness and recklessness, and both his impulsiveness and lack of sense get him into trouble on more than one occasion. Finally, while there is a prophecy about a person from the Outer-World playing a big role in the Inner World's future, it says that that person will bring untold doom and destruction upon the Inner World and be the greatest threat that it ever faces. So, some people are actually wary of Hunter because of it. Hunter Steele was written as a much more relatable take on the "young protagonist from an ordinary world finds hidden magical world" trope, but him being another case of Clueless Chick Magnet undermines that relatability. 

Going back to video games, I am a huge fan of The Legend of Zelda, and, unfortunately, it goes back-and-forth with this trope all the time. Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, and most recently Breath of the Wild all had this. I thought it was a little funny in Ocarina of Time, when it was relatively new and I hadn't seen this trope come up elsewhere, but by Breath of the Wild, it was almost getting annoying. By contrast, I absolutely love how Spirit Tracks instead focused solely on Link and Zelda and made Link less oblivious, and how Wind Waker didn't bother giving anyone any overt romantic attraction towards Link (except the Fairy Queen as a quick joke). 

 

What do you think of this trope?

(Also, should I change the title of this topic?)

Edited December 22, 2019 by vanguard333

[Etrurian emperor]

29 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

My other problem with it is quite simple: who can relate to it? Seriously; who in real life has the issue:

No one has this issue but everyone certainly wants to have it. Its wish fulfillment. 

Fire Emblem isn't a stranger to this trope either. Roy is the most notable example since he has a harem without realizing it, but Marth and to some extend Alm have this trope as well. 

I suppose it also has to do with what kind of characters Japan likes. Generally the main characters in Japanese media are either bratty and dumb which makes them inattentive enough to miss all those crushes, or they are meek and soft which makes them too naive to realize it. The recent Isekai boom probably isn't helping matters either. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[Flere210]

I think is neither meant to be relatable neither meant to be a fantasy(most people actually want the character to either begin a relationship whit their preferred girl or try the harem/polygamy route). It's meant to leave the romantic subplot hanging untill the end and to not rule out any pairing untill the very last moment, so the fandom can sail whatever ship they want. Most romantic subplots in RPG have the romance only begin in the end of the game, and having a clueless protagonist help delaying said beginning.

Ultimately, it's a trope dèaling whit emotional immaturity, much like the tsundere. The tsundere is an exaggeration of the attitude of certain teenager to hide their feelings behind a layer of agressiveness, while the clueless chick magnet is about the difficulty that teenagers may have in disherning romantic feeling from platonic ones. Having a male tsundere toward a female love interest is only going to work if it's subdued(think Bulma and Vegeta), because the audience won't easily accept a guy randomly punching a girl, so it's understandable why they go for the clueless route so often. 

[Captain Karnage]

Personally I have more problems with "The Power Of FRIENDSHIP"

Like you have this dark lord whose had thousands of years of time to train and plan, an army at his side, and a whole bunch of mugguffins, and gets defeated by a bunch of teenagers because they have the power of FRIENDSHIP on their side.

[Ottservia]

Sounds to me that you have a problem with Harem protagonists in general which I get. I mean the point of a Harem show is wish fulfillment after all.

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, I'd say, if the trope is too fictitious to work in real life... well, that's why it's used in works of fiction.

Personally, I don't mind neither concept or most possible implementations. Fiction is fiction. If it's not something I need to relate or aspire to, then I just let it be.

[DragonFlames]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

and it is always a guy; I've never seen the gender-swapped version of this trope

Rorona, the titular character from Atelier Rorona would be one gender-swapped example. Pretty much all the guys in her party (with one exception) are into her and she doesn't notice at all.
It's a bit of a special case, though, because she herself has a crush on Sterkenburg, one of the males pining for her. But because they are Twice Shy, it doesn't really go anywhere. Seriously, in Atelier Lulua, a sequel to a sequel to a sequel to Atelier Rorona, that takes place roughly 20 years after the events in Atelier Rorona, they're still unaware of each other's feelings. It's almost funny, really.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Sounds to me that you have a problem with Harem protagonists in general which I get. I mean the point of a Harem show is wish fulfillment after all.

What bothers me about those kinds of shows (and the genre in general) is that the protagonist doesn't have the balls to choose just one of their suitors, so it never goes anywhere.
And plot threads that don't go anywhere, particularly when it comes to romance, are something of a Berserk Button of mine.

[vanguard333]

Thank you all for your responses. 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

No one has this issue but everyone certainly wants to have it. Its wish fulfillment. 

59 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Sounds to me that you have a problem with Harem protagonists in general which I get. I mean the point of a Harem show is wish fulfillment after all.

My literal next sentence was about the wish-fulfilment aspect of it and how my problem with that is that the trope's been used even in cases where the protagonist was supposed to be relatable.

 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

No one has this issue but everyone certainly wants to have it. Its wish fulfillment. 

Fire Emblem isn't a stranger to this trope either. Roy is the most notable example since he has a harem without realizing it, but Marth and to some extend Alm have this trope as well. 

I suppose it also has to do with what kind of characters Japan likes. Generally the main characters in Japanese media are either bratty and dumb which makes them inattentive enough to miss all those crushes, or they are meek and soft which makes them too naive to realize it. The recent Isekai boom probably isn't helping matters either. 

Huh; and here I thought it was just Alm and Corrin that had that. I never played Roy's game, and the large number of female major characters that didn't like Marth made me fail to notice the large amount that do. 

 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

I think is neither meant to be relatable neither meant to be a fantasy(most people actually want the character to either begin a relationship whit their preferred girl or try the harem/polygamy route). It's meant to leave the romantic subplot hanging until the end and to not rule out any pairing until the very last moment, so the fandom can sail whatever ship they want. Most romantic subplots in RPG have the romance only begin in the end of the game, and having a clueless protagonist help delaying said beginning.

That's a good point. This probably makes the most sense as the reason why I keep seeing it. Like will-they-or-won't-they (another one I dislike though it can be fine in small amounts and not stretched over an entire story), it's just to stretch it out. 

Still, I can think of at least a few cases where it wasn't being used to stretch it out; Xenoblade Chronicles and its stupid Shulk-Fiora-Melia love-triangle comes to mind. Seriously; of the three female main characters, two want Shulk and one wants Reyn. That one definitely wasn't stretch it, as Shulk and Fiora get together when they land on the Mechonis' Fallen Arm. The Melia part of that romance arc just felt stapled-on to be honest. 

 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Ultimately, it's a trope dèaling whit emotional immaturity, much like the tsundere. The tsundere is an exaggeration of the attitude of certain teenager to hide their feelings behind a layer of agressiveness, while the clueless chick magnet is about the difficulty that teenagers may have in disherning romantic feeling from platonic ones. Having a male tsundere toward a female love interest is only going to work if it's subdued(think Bulma and Vegeta), because the audience won't easily accept a guy randomly punching a girl, so it's understandable why they go for the clueless route so often. 

Which just goes to show the double-standard surrounding the Tsundere archetype, but that's a whole other topic and I'm not a fan of that trope either, though there are two examples that I liked (Riley Miller from Valkyria Chronicles 4 and Midna from Twilight Princess). By contrast, any example of a Clueless Chick Magnet protagonist that I like, I like despite that trope being there. 

 

1 hour ago, Captain Karnage said:

Personally I have more problems with "The Power Of FRIENDSHIP"

Like you have this dark lord whose had thousands of years of time to train and plan, an army at his side, and a whole bunch of McGuffins, and gets defeated by a bunch of teenagers because they have the power of FRIENDSHIP on their side.

I can understand that. I will just say that I have seen at least two cases where it was handled reasonably and effectively: Avatar: The Last Airbender, and Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. Granted, those aren't video games. But still. 

 

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, I'd say, if the trope is too fictitious to work in real life... well, that's why it's used in works of fiction.

Personally, I don't mind neither concept or most possible implementations. Fiction is fiction. If it's not something I need to relate or aspire to, then I just let it be.

Okay. As I said, I guess my first main problem with it is just how tired the trope is. It's done almost the exact same way, every time, over and over again, and it's so prevalent. If it were less prevalent, and someone actually tried something new with it, then I would probably have far less of a problem with it. 

 

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Rorona, the titular character from Atelier Rorona would be one gender-swapped example. Pretty much all the guys in her party (with one exception) are into her and she doesn't notice at all.
It's a bit of a special case, though, because she herself has a crush on Sterkenburg, one of the males pining for her. But because they are Twice Shy, it doesn't really go anywhere. Seriously, in Atelier Lulua, a sequel to a sequel to a sequel to Atelier Rorona, that takes place roughly 20 years after the events in Atelier Rorona, they're still unaware of each other's feelings. It's almost funny, really.

What bothers me about those kinds of shows (and the genre in general) is that the protagonist doesn't have the balls to choose just one of their suitors, so it never goes anywhere.
And plot threads that don't go anywhere, particularly when it comes to romance, are something of a Berserk Button of mine.

Interesting. Oh my; twenty years?! That sounds ridiculous to the point of being almost funny. 

If I ever actually saw one of those shows, I'd probably agree wholeheartedly with that. I definitely agree about the plot threads going nowhere part. It's one reason I have issues with it in video games. I'm almost tempted to exclaim, "Come on already! Pick one, and just move the plot along already!" 

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting. Oh my; twenty years?! That sounds ridiculous to the point of being almost funny.

Atelier Lulua itself hangs a lampshade over this multiple times and it's mostly used for humor, too.
This is actually why I can sort of forgive it, because the resulting jokes are pretty funny.

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

If I ever actually saw one of those shows, I'd probably agree wholeheartedly with that. I definitely agree about the plot threads going nowhere part. It's one reason I have issues with it in video games. I'm almost tempted to exclaim, "Come on already! Pick one, and just move the plot along already!" 

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Interdimensional Observer]

21 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Huh; and here I thought it was just Alm and Corrin that had that. I never played Roy's game, and the large number of female major characters that didn't like Marth made me fail to notice the large amount that do. 

Roy is the only character with paired endings in FE6, excusable since this was the first time support conversations were done.

He can support and marry any of the following:

• Lilina
• Cecilia
• Sue
• Shanna
• Sophia
• Larum

Since Guinevere is unplayable, Roy cannot marry her, and while I don't think there really is any love between them, I can see her thankfulness for all Roy did for her leading Guinevere to have a stray thought of marrying him.

Maybe Fae has feelings of affection toward Roy too, I forget, but she has the mind of a five year old, so any liking she has for Roy shouldn't be taken seriously.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Maybe Fae has feelings of affection toward Roy too, I forget, but she has the mind of a five year old, so any liking she has for Roy shouldn't be taken seriously.

If Fae had any sorts of feelings towards Roy, IMO it would be closer to "adopted big brother".

Once again, I'm not a fan of clickbait, and this title is exactly it.  Second, tropes will pan out in a certain way - that's the very nature of a trope, so why did you feel the need to highlight your dislike of this one?

Third, I don't think this belongs here, but at the same time, it doesn't feel like it's Entertainment material (because this trope isn't limited to JRPGs), and the responses don't warrant Far from the Forest.  Eh, I'll decide this later.

[Interdimensional Observer]

14 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If Fae had any sorts of feelings towards Roy, IMO it would be closer to "adopted big brother".

Considering Myrrh outright asks Ephraim to call her "big brother", and I think I recall hearing Uta-loid Tiki say "oni-chan", that could be the likely case, instead of an innocent child's little crush.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[vanguard333]

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Once again, I'm not a fan of clickbait, and this title is exactly it.  Second, tropes will pan out in a certain way - that's the very nature of a trope, so why did you feel the need to highlight your dislike of this one?

Thanks for the input. Honestly, I wrote out everything first, then just wrote the title because I couldn't think of a better title for it. I should change it. Any ideas that don't unintentionally look like clickbait?

As for why I felt the need to highlight my dislike of this one; to be honest, my main reason is that it came up recently (as I said, it came to mind as I was watching footage for Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE and Final Fantasy 7 remake, as the trope is very prevalent in both of those games) and I was curious what others thought of it. I guess this was me thinking, "Hey, I see this trend a lot, and one of the classic and most well-known examples (Cloud-Tifa-Aerith) is getting a remake. What do people think of it?" 

Yeah, tropes will often pan out a certain way, but they'll also be played with, parodied, subverted, etc., and I've never seen anyone do anything other than have it pan out the usual way. 

 

17 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Third, I don't think this belongs here, but at the same time, it doesn't feel like it's Entertainment material (because this trope isn't limited to JRPGs), and the responses don't warrant Far from the Forest.  Eh, I'll decide this later.

Oh yeah; true. I was trying to just talk about the way it appears in video games, and that's why I thought it made sense to put it in general gaming. But yeah; it probably doesn't belong here. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I guess this was me thinking, "Hey, I see this trend a lot, and one of the classic and most well-known examples (Cloud-Tifa-Aerith) is getting a remake. What do people think of it?" 

Does this case have some nuance though? Since...FFVII SPOILERS

Spoiler

It isn't so much Cloud himself that Aerith falls for, it's Zack Fair. And it just so happens that Cloud's mistaken sense of self created after Nibelheim was based on Zack?

Also, you can technically pick Barret for the one little Golden Saucer "dating" event I think.

 

[vanguard333]

10 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Does this case have some nuance though? Since...FFVII SPOILERS

  Reveal hidden contents

It isn't so much Cloud himself that Aerith falls for, it's Zack Fair. And it just so happens that Cloud's mistaken sense of self created after Nibelheim was based on Zack?

Also, you can technically pick Barret for the one little Golden Saucer "dating" event I think.

 

I wouldn't know; I haven't actually ever played Final Fantasy; I just know about the Cloud-Tifa-Aerith love triangle and other girls in the story being interested in Cloud because it's quite well-known, like Shiek being Zelda in Ocarina of Time. 

[B.Leu]

...Huh ? Cloud is a clueless chick magnet ? Never got that impression.

I mean, it's not just JRPGs, light novels, visual novels, anime, manga, and other japanese thingy does that a lot.
Like many things such as tsundere humor, it got old the moment I saw it, and I'm like "just fuck already, talk it out, anything, shut up about it". #JustHaveSexAlready. 😛

It's even funnier when they just try to find a reason more "original" on the trope, like the protagonist is just "too traumatized" and or is "willingly ignoring the love he gets for X dumb reason". Which is retarded as hell.
Doing that is like taking poop, and mixing it with a tad of colorant. It's still shit and will continue to be shit. 😛
 

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Sounds to me that you have a problem with Harem protagonists in general which I get. I mean the point of a Harem show is wish fulfillment after all.

To have a harem and never have sex with any of them. Truly wish fulfillment. 😛
Some actually go against that cliche with the guy actually having sex, and man, oh man, it's almost revolutionary.
 

2 hours ago, Captain Karnage said:

Personally I have more problems with "The Power Of FRIENDSHIP"

Like you have this dark lord whose had thousands of years of time to train and plan, an army at his side, and a whole bunch of mugguffins, and gets defeated by a bunch of teenagers because they have the power of FRIENDSHIP on their side.

Depending how it's used it double as deus ex machina too which is not much better. 😛

[Kiran_]

2 hours ago, Captain Karnage said:

Personally I have more problems with "The Power Of FRIENDSHIP"

Like you have this dark lord whose had thousands of years of time to train and plan, an army at his side, and a whole bunch of mugguffins, and gets defeated by a bunch of teenagers because they have the power of FRIENDSHIP on their side.

THIS. This is my actual least favorite trope. Power of friendship combined with the major dark lord makes ONE somehow oddly convenient mistake that they would have never made otherwise. Certain ones of the "Tales of" games do this.

In terms of the actual trope of "clueless chick magnet" aka: "unintentional harem", it definitely isn't my favorite (especially in anime), because it really suggests the main character is just 'perfect' since everyone falls in love with them. It's definitely wish-fulfillment (but then again, I think there's a certain amount of that in anything fantasy), but to me I think it just undermines a characters flaws, and since I'm a huge fan of true characterization, I think the "clueless chick magnet" sorta paints this picture of a perfect person, or rather one where everyone is willing to overlook flaws. But I think I find less of an issue in video games overall, though in ones where there's an avatar this definitely comes back into play more than I like.

In terms of it being applied to real life. I dooo think it's a real thing. I have had friends who a lot of people have a crush on, and they never seem to realize. But the fact of the matter, it's usually people they don't necessarily LIKE or want or are attracted to, and so while I think the trope is possible, it's so rarely a bunch of HOT people all wanting someone. Haha.

[eclipse]

48 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks for the input. Honestly, I wrote out everything first, then just wrote the title because I couldn't think of a better title for it. I should change it. Any ideas that don't unintentionally look like clickbait?

As for why I felt the need to highlight my dislike of this one; to be honest, my main reason is that it came up recently (as I said, it came to mind as I was watching footage for Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE and Final Fantasy 7 remake, as the trope is very prevalent in both of those games) and I was curious what others thought of it. I guess this was me thinking, "Hey, I see this trend a lot, and one of the classic and most well-known examples (Cloud-Tifa-Aerith) is getting a remake. What do people think of it?" 

Yeah, tropes will often pan out a certain way, but they'll also be played with, parodied, subverted, etc., and I've never seen anyone do anything other than have it pan out the usual way.

If your goal is to talk about that one trope, then name it in the title.  But I'll touch a bit more on it later.

Kinda not feeling this trope in 7 - Aerith's still hung up over someone else, which leaves Barrett Tifa.  Yuffie doesn't seem to be interested in Cloud himself (his materia is another matter).  IMO the romance VNs have it the worst, because that's the entire point of the game, with the main character (you) choosing who to go with.  I'd love to see a game/anime where the main character realizes this, and uses it as a way to match those interested in him/her with better options.

54 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh yeah; true. I was trying to just talk about the way it appears in video games, and that's why I thought it made sense to put it in general gaming. But yeah; it probably doesn't belong here. 

If you go by that logic. . .yeah.  Maybe "The Clueless Chick Magnet trope and JRPGs" would work as a topic title?  Or something like that?  Regardless, a non-clickbait title will tell the reader what to expect not "open this to find out what I mean".

[AnonymousSpeed]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

One could of course argue that it's not supposed to be relatable; it's supposed to be wish-fulfillment/escapism.

What do you think of this trope?

As has been agreed upon, the trope is a tool of escapism.

Escapism is unhealthy.

Thus, this trope is garbage.

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Fire Emblem isn't a stranger to this trope either. Roy is the most notable example since he has a harem without realizing it, but Marth and to some extend Alm have this trope as well.

In defense of our boy, not all that many of his support partners seem particularly interested in him until like, A rank. In the Lilina support he seems to catch on to it.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Second, tropes will pan out in a certain way - that's the very nature of a trope, so why did you feel the need to highlight your dislike of this one?

There's a lot of merit in examining bad things and why they are bad.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

There's a lot of merit in examining bad things and why they are bad.

If that's the case, then this board would be overrun by "this trope is bad and here's why".  My issue with tropes is that they make things predictable, and that makes for safe storytelling.  But good storytelling, IMO, will shake things up in creative ways.  IMO there's some legit terrible tropes that shouldn't exist, like the girl who can get away with hitting on/molesting other girls.  Something like the clueless protagonist makes for bad storytelling, not bad life lessons.

[AnonymousSpeed]

22 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If that's the case, then this board would be overrun by "this trope is bad and here's why".

I don't follow this argument, I'm sorry.

Giving to charity is generally agreed to be something or of merit, we don't have many threads on charitable giving.

 

22 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Something like the clueless protagonist makes for bad storytelling, not bad life lessons.

I would argue that the trope in question actually is harmful, because it indulges people's fantasies instead of confronting them with realities. Whatever encourages you to regress, or at the very least not improve, is a bad thing.

Edited December 22, 2019 by AnonymousSpeed

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't follow this argument, I'm sorry.

Giving to charity is generally agreed to be something or of merit, we don't have many threads on charitable giving.

It's easy to bitch about things.  Like, really easy.  But what does it accomplish?  It's not like this discussion will change the course of overseas entertainment.

2 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I would argue that the trope in question actually is harmful, because it indulges people's fantasies instead of confronting them with realities. Whatever encourages you to regress, or at the very least not improve, is a bad thing.

If someone wants to shoot themselves in the foot socially, eh.  If a trope reinforces a bad social norm (in the example I cited, that women can't assault other women, among others), then that's a legitimately bad trope.

[AnonymousSpeed]

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It's easy to bitch about things.  Like, really easy.  But what does it accomplish?  It's not like this discussion will change the course of overseas entertainment.

 

A single thread won't, but you can't pretend like talking about a problem has no benefits. It informs people that they shouldn't be partaking in it either as writers or as audiences. I don't think many people would have the same taste as they do now if not for some critical influence. Some people owe a critical analysis for their refrain from some unhealthy practice, like watching harem anime.

Even if it just drives some degeneracy out of fanfiction, it's a net positive, and in exchange for what negative?

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If someone wants to shoot themselves in the foot socially, eh.  If a trope reinforces a bad social norm (in the example I cited, that women can't assault other women, among others), then that's a legitimately bad trope.

It's not a good social norm for people to be shooting themselves in the foot socially, nor is it a kindness to someone to let them shoot themselves in the foot socially. Again, criticizing a trope can "open eyes" so to speak, and help them realize something isn't good for them.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah I'm not a fan of sex-less universes either. From what I've seen in video games, many romances tend to go over well with fans of the big franchises. There are bad romances too, but not proportionally more than the amount of bad plots that exist in general. I can't think of any great game story marred by, of all things, a romance sub plot. When there's no canonical romance it just leads to shipping and ugliness online, regardless of whether the game itself allows for player control of that shipping. Maybe a Japanese marketing expert will tell us that the "shipping factor" is responsible for half the sales, but I think it's hard to quantify the value of this trope.

 

[Flere210]

It depend on what we mean as "bad". An immoral trope is bad in a way, but is not necessarily bad writing. Is a moral trope "good" just because it teach a good lesson? And if it is not, why there is a different standard between moral and immoral tropes?