Jotari's Three Houses fix

[Jotari]

So I made this video, like, nine months ago and had some trouble rendering it and then just sort of procrastinated until now when Three HOuses has become relevant again.

For those of you who don't want to bother watching a half hour long video or can't make out what I'm actually saying with the sound quality, here are the cliff notes version.

White Clouds

*Deciding which house to side with his pushed back until after the catacombs chapter. Chapters 1-6 are divided so you are paired with each house for two months each, giving you a chance to see them as characters and begin building them as units before deciding who to stick with permanently.

*As a result of this later house split, Chapter 1, the mock battle, has been replaced with an Almyrian chapter (Edelgard/Cyrill's paralogue map). Almyrian will play a more pivotal role in all routes so it's better they get a proper introduction.

*The choice to side with Edelgard happens before the fight with her in the tomb. If you do side with her then you fight Rhea and her guardians instead.

* If you choose Golden Deer or Blue Lions, then Rhea is killed at the end of Part 1, since she's pretty much nonexistent in Verdant Wind and Azure Moon anyway.

 

Verdant Wind

*The most significant rewrite. Claude brings his Almyrian forces in during Grondor which gives him an overwhelming military advantage, but puts his leadership of the alliance in very shaky territory. He then tries to end the conflict using diplomacy by offering to marry Edelagrd. Edelgard, not being an idiot and knowing she can't win militarily, accepts so long as the joint Alliance-Empire nation is a meritocracy. During the wedding Dimitri crashes the party and kills Edelgard sending the entire continent into chaos that Claude needs to clean up. This would all necessitate only a single new chapter.

*Final boss is Thales in a mech. Yes, it's silly, but I wanted the Agarthans to be Claude's final chapter for thematic reasons and they need something substantial to serve as the final boss.

*On a thematic/character level, the route is about Claude learning his own limitations and how his scheming (which is actually seen now with actual consequences) can hurt people. HIm learning to trust in other people actually becomes a salient plot point, expressed in the story when Hubert (who becomes Emperor after Edelgard's death) provides intel on the Agarthan base.

 

Azure Moon

*People actually listen to Dimitri when he demands they attack the empire right away, replacing some of the early part 2 maps with maps set in the empire. Rodrigue is killed by the Death Knight during a failed assault on Arianrohd, but it takes until Grondor for him to get his act together.

*On a thematic level it's much the same as actual Azure Moon, only with the first half made more unique from the other routes. It comes with an added criticism of monarchy as a system as people continue to follow Dimitri merely because he is their king, even if they believe he will destroy the kingdom.

 

Silver Snow

*Rhea lives and is playable as your main lord. Most of the route will be

*All of the Black Eagles except Petra betray you and side with Edelgard after the time skip. Petra stays with you both because she's one of the ones that makes the most sense to fight against the empire and because, thematically, it's important in this route for Rhea to learn to accept the people outside Fodlan as actual people. Yes, people would probably hate that,  I still think it'd make for the most compelling story (and most interesting gameplay if you suddenly have to use an all faculty army). The Black Eagles play absolutely no role in Silver Snow as is and having them all join Byleth like that kind of takes away their agency and makes their loyalty seem more wishwashy.

*The final boss will be Nemesis, taken from Verdant Wind (an obvious move to pretty much anyone who played the game). Yes, it's stupid he stayed a live so long, but he works really well as an enemy for Rhea and the whole legendary warriors being bad guys is a nice subversion for a standard FIre Emblem trope.

*The thematic throughline of this route will be to deradicalize Rhea. Overall it's the least changes of the routes on a chapter to chapter basis (but the other routes having changes still makes it somewhat unique, though probably still the most boring of routes, still, playable Rhea would be a draw).

 

Crimson Flower

*Claude bringing in forces from Almyria actually shift the course of the war, forcing Rhea to retreat first to the monastery and then to Grondor (in all the routes Claude brings in his Almyrian forces around the time of Grondor, which, due to racism, helps to encourage Dimitri to fight him).

*Edelgard was not tortured by the Agarthans. She just genuinely believes in a meritocracy and thinks allying with the Agarthans is the best way to achieve it.

*The thematic troughline of this route will be Byleth's influence softening Edelgard. Basically what people say Crimson Flower is about that isn't really expressed in the plot. Edelgard abandoning the use of Demonic Beasts at Byleth's behest will be an actual plot point. After Grondor they march through Remire on their way to attack the Kingdom, which firmly solidifies Edelgard's rejection of the Agarthans. She defeats them in a sudden purge of her army after the Cornelia chapter. Unlike Crimson Flower where both the Agarthans and Edelgard know they're in an unsteady alliance and will betray each other in the near future, this catches the Agarthans completely off guard.

*In none of the stories do the Agarthans have nukes. Because the nukes were bloody stupid.

 

You can see a complete list of the moving around of the chapters at the end of the video. All of this could be accomplished with the chapters already present in the game. The only chapters I've listed as entirely new are the Claude-Edelgard wedding chapter and the revisit to Remire (which would probably look pretty different [and not on fire] after all those years, though still has to recognizable be Remire so call that one like a half an extra chapter). Even the wedding chapter could be in the Sword of the Creator map from part 1 if need be (though I envision it happening within the empire).

[AnonymousSpeed]

I don't have the patience for a thirty minute video, but even just looking at the thumbnail I can't believe you'd betray the true Edelgard OTP like that.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't have the patience for a thirty minute video, but even just looking at the thumbnail I can't believe you'd betray the true Edelgard OTP like that.

It's a marriage of convenience! Shippers wouldn't get angry about that, would they...would they?...Yes, of course they would.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Jotari

[Shaky Jones]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Shippers wouldn't get angry about that, would they...would they?...Yes, of course they would.

I am already terrified about the chaos that will inevitably ensue from the suggestion of the thumbnail Even after reading most of the tl:dr, I see nothing but darkness ahead. Or maybe just your IP address on a post. 

29 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Rodrigue is killed by the Death Knight during a failed assault on Arianrohd, but it takes until Grondor for him to get his act together.

Regardless of who kills him, there will always be the "why doesn't Byleth just use divine pulse" question. Great implementation Intelligent Systems.

17 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't have the patience for a thirty minute video, but even just looking at the thumbnail I can't believe you'd betray the true Edelgard OTP like that.

Somehow I knew you'd find ways to bring that back, and it probably won't be the last time either. Maybe right when Warriors 3 Hooligans releases.

[AnonymousSpeed]

17 hours ago, Shaky Jones said:

Somehow I knew you'd find ways to bring that back, and it probably won't be the last time either. Maybe right when Warriors 3 Hooligans releases.

Three Hopes? Yeah bra, I got three hopes, I hope for:

• Snickerdoodle
• White Chocolate Macadamia
• Kitchen Sink

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

It comes with an added criticism of monarchy as a system as people continue to follow Dimitri merely because he is their king, even if they believe he will destroy the kingdom.

Meanwhile, democratically elected(TM) leaders:

Far be it from me to defend Three Hemorrhoids, but I think there's something tepid-sounding about taking a plot ostensibly about choosing between opposed ideologies and then making the characters less radical.

Edited February 12, 2022 by AnonymousSpeed

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Meanwhile, democratically elected(TM) leaders:

Far be it from me to defend Three Hemorrhoids, but I think there's something tepid-sounding about taking a plot ostensibly about choosing between opposed ideologies and then making the characters less radical.

Wait, which are you saying is more radical? My rewrite or the original?

[eclipse]

I'll leave this topic here for now, but if it continues to get low-effort replies, I'll hand out warnings before yeeting it to Far from the Forest.

[ZeManaphy]

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

Deciding which house to side with his pushed back until after the catacombs chapter. Chapters 1-6 are divided so you are paired with each house for two months each, giving you a chance to see them as characters and begin building them as units before deciding who to stick with permanently.

 

The problem is that you are missing how each lord views the context of the event. I’ll bring up the epilogue after Chapter Three. As her Edelgard’s class mates weep over loss, she calmly mentions that as ruler she will be like Lonato and  declares that sacrifice for the greater good is not a death in vain. Dimitri is the opposite, horrified what he had done and is dividers himself for killing civilians and Lord Lonato for sending innocent people to be killed. Claude states in admiration of Thunderbrand and wants to learn more about other Hero Relics. These are important moments that foreshadow the Lord’s truths during the war phase, and you never see that side if each lord did different things each month. 
 

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

If you choose Golden Deer or Blue Lions, then Rhea is killed at the end of Part 1, since she's pretty much nonexistent in Verdant Wind and Azure Moon anyway

Hard Disagree on that. I think you really understand how important Rhea is to the World of Fódlan. Not only did she found the feudal society of Fódlan, she is the head of the church that glues the continent together. If she’s executed, the church’s power is more or less dead, and that significantly brings up the morale for Edelgard’s army, which exactly happens in Azure Moon, Silver Snow, and Verdant Wind since in these stories the empire has captured Rhea and the continent’s war is in Adrestia’s favor. Besides, Claude needs Rhea alive in Verdant Wind because she is the only one who knows about Fódlan’s true history. So, yeah, even if Rhea vanishes for most part 2, she is incredibly important for Fódlan still. 
 

 

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

The most significant rewrite. Claude brings his Almyrian forces in during Grondor which gives him an overwhelming military advantage, but puts his leadership of the alliance in very shaky territory. He then tries to end the conflict using diplomacy by offering to marry Edelagrd. Edelgard, not being an idiot and knowing she can't win militarily, accepts so long as the joint Alliance-Empire nation is a meritocracy. During the wedding Dimitri crashes the party and kills Edelgard sending the entire continent into chaos that Claude needs to clean up. This would all necessitate only a single new chapter.

Are you kidding ? This has got to be the most  Ridiculous idea I have ever heard. Why would ever Edelgard want to marry Claude? She makes it very clear after Chapter 6 that she does not trust his origins. Also the game also makes it very clear that Edelgard wants to be one who repairs Fódlan’s system through absolute power ( she accuses the church of splitting of empire’s territories into the Kingdom and Alliance during her declaration of war )  and does not want to share it alongside another monarch. And lastly, Edelgard makes it very clear in AM that she refuses to end the war diplomatically even when cornered, and she openly states in her pre-battle dialogue with Claude that she doesn’t trust him to lead Fódlan because he doesn’t proper understanding of Fódlan’s history despite having similar ideals. And also why would Hubert become Emperor? If Edelgard were to die, there would be a civil war between power hungry nobles all of which are vying for the throne, like Duke Aegir. 

 

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

People actually listen to Dimitri when he demands they attack the empire right away, replacing some of the early part 2 maps with maps set in the empire. Rodrigue is killed by the Death Knight during a failed assault on Arianrohd, but it takes until Grondor for him to get his act together.

Rodriguez’s death and how he kills in AM symbolizes two things: #1 Fleche’s death and failure to seek revenge is an example of what fate awaits Dimitri if he continues his path of revenge. #2 Rodrigue’s words on that he should live for himself and not others is what finally returns himself to Normal alongside Byleth. Dimitri’s psychosis is not driven for himself, but to avenge his family. Once he learns to move on, he grows into a truly man. 
 

His death in VW might be small, but shows his fate should he continue his path of vengeance, which has much greater context when you play or have played AM. 
 

On 2/11/2022 at 7:41 PM, Jotari said:

All of the Black Eagles except Petra betray you and side with Edelgard after the time skip. Petra stays with you both because she's one of the ones that makes the most sense to fight against the empire and because, thematically, it's important in this route for Rhea to learn to accept the people outside Fodlan as actual people. Yes, people would probably hate that,  I still think it'd make for the most compelling story (and most interesting gameplay if you suddenly have to use an all faculty army). The Black Eagles play absolutely no role in Silver Snow as is and having them all join Byleth like that kind of takes away their agency and makes their loyalty seem more wishwashy.

That might be seem good from a story perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it is terrible the students are very likely the player has invested the most, so them all leaving is a huge waste of time. 

 

On 2/11/2022 at 7:41 PM, Jotari said:

The thematic throughline of this route will be to deradicalize Rhea. Overall it's the least changes of the routes on a chapter to chapter basis (but the other routes having changes still makes it somewhat unique, though probably still the most boring of routes, still, playable Rhea would be a draw).

 

Again, Rhea is super important to Fódlan. Go read my previous paragraph on it. 

 

 

On 2/11/2022 at 7:41 PM, Jotari said:

Claude bringing in forces from Almyria actually shift the course of the war, forcing Rhea to retreat first to the monastery and then to Grondor (in all the routes Claude brings in his Almyrian forces around the time of Grondor, which, due to racism, helps to encourage Dimitri to fight him).

Why would Rhea retreat because of the Almyrans? Claude, like the church and the Kingdom are opposing the Empire. If anything, they should combine forces. And also Dimitri makes it very clear that he is all for fighting against racism, seen as how he defends Dedue. It makes no sense for him to fight the Almyrans. 

 

On 2/11/2022 at 7:41 PM, Jotari said:

Edelgard was not tortured by the Agarthans. She just genuinely believes in a meritocracy and thinks allying with the Agarthans is the best way to achieve it.

The reason Edelgard believes the way she does and acts the way does is because of what the Agarthans did to her and her family. Without the experiments and the lies she was fed to about the church of Serios by the Agarthans she would never declare war on the church, nor would she hate nobility, which stems the from the fact that the Nobility are the ones that led to her experiments and the death of her family. 

 

On 2/11/2022 at 7:41 PM, Jotari said:

In none of the stories do the Agarthans have nukes. Because the nukes were bloody stupid.

Hard Disagree. The nukes serve proof of the Agarthan’s power and advancement, the fact they were to blow up an entire foretress to smithereens is proof of their advanced technology and a threat that should not be underestimated nor should they tried to be controlled. 

I was laughing the whole time reading this post. You clearly are tone-deaf when it comes to understanding the politics of Three Houses and the changes you propose would require basically an entire rewrite of the story, the world building and characters to justify the drastic changes. 

 

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

7 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Hard Disagree. The nukes serve proof of the Agarthan’s power and advancement, the fact they were to blow up an entire foretress to smithereens is proof of their advanced technology and a threat that should not be underestimated nor should they tried to be controlled. 

If that was the purpose of the nukes they fail at it utterly. They blow up a fortress, kill zero named characters (on any route), and in no way prevent the player characters from hunting down the Agarthans thereafter. I'm with Jotari on this one. I think you're right that that's what the nukes were intended to do, but like many things related to the Agarthans in the game's writing, they fall flat.

9 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

That might be seem good from a story perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it is terrible the students are very likely the player has invested the most, so them all leaving is a huge waste of time. 

Yeah it's kind of a catch-22 of the route. Most of the Eagles feel like they should stick with Edelgard barring Byleth magic charisma mumbo-jumbo. As you note they currently stick with Byleth for gameplay reasons, but it results in a bit of a weird story, and the Eagles feel dreadfully out of place in the scenes thereafter on that route. I'm never sure what the best way is to salvage SS; I think it's the most fundamentally broken part of 3H's story. I definitely agree with Jotari that Rhea should have been more prominent in it, though.

11 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Hard Disagree on that. I think you really understand how important Rhea is to the World of Fódlan. Not only did she found the feudal society of Fódlan, she is the head of the church that glues the continent together. If she’s executed, the church’s power is more or less dead, and that significantly brings up the morale for Edelgard’s army

I don't think executing Rhea vs keeping her captured would significantly change the morale of the Adrestian army (and if it did, then Edelgard would just have executed her). Obviously Rhea is an important character (nobody disagrees with this), but she does nothing of consequence for the rest of Azure Moon - she really might as well be dead. On VW she does a bit more but it wouldn't take a massive re-write to remove her (for all that I do like her one scene of note on the route). I do think that if Rhea is going to be kept alive on those routes more needed to be done with her. What was the nature of her captivity? Did she interact with Edelgard? What are her goals once freed? (I don't think she's the type of person to quietly let Claude do what he wants with Fodlan, and it's incredibly anti-climactic to her Part 1 buildup that the game doesn't address this.) etc.

I agree with most of your other comments, in particular how Roderigue's death currently serves an important thematic purpose and how removing Edelgard's torture lessens the story (one of the really cool things of 3H is how the ideologies of the main characters are shaped by their experiences). And while I think a Claude/Edelgard alliance could have worked (they're obviously interested in allying as per their scene in Golden Deer chapter 5, just neither trusts the other), I think I overall prefer the tragedy of them never being able to be allies. (And also, if they were, GG everyone else.)

Random wedding murder would be a pretty shark-jumping moment for me, so I'm definitely glad that wasn't in.

[LoneRecon400]

I think it'd be very easy to justify the Black Eagles not joining Edelgard in Silver Snow. Just have her use the Crest Stones she obtains from the tomb to turn some of the knights and people living near Garreg Mach into Demonic Beasts.

It makes sense from a pragmatic point of view for her to do since she'd weaken the church with no loss of own but would be very hard for the rest of the Black Eagles to stomach.

I feel like it also contrast her character well in CF where she would not go with such a plan due to the assurance the professor provides her.

This would result in needing to change the invasion in other routes to give motivation for the black eagles to side with her, but the less story overlap the better.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

The problem is that you are missing how each lord views the context of the event. I’ll bring up the epilogue after Chapter Three. As her Edelgard’s class mates weep over loss, she calmly mentions that as ruler she will be like Lonato and  declares that sacrifice for the greater good is not a death in vain. Dimitri is the opposite, horrified what he had done and is dividers himself for killing civilians and Lord Lonato for sending innocent people to be killed. Claude states in admiration of Thunderbrand and wants to learn more about other Hero Relics. These are important moments that foreshadow the Lord’s truths during the war phase, and you never see that side if each lord did different things each month. 
 

It's not like these sentiments couldn't be expressed in other ways. Were talking like almost a single line if dialogue changed with the current way of doing things.

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Hard Disagree on that. I think you really understand how important Rhea is to the World of Fódlan. Not only did she found the feudal society of Fódlan, she is the head of the church that glues the continent together. If she’s executed, the church’s power is more or less dead, and that significantly brings up the morale for Edelgard’s army, which exactly happens in Azure Moon, Silver Snow, and Verdant Wind since in these stories the empire has captured Rhea and the continent’s war is in Adrestia’s favor. Besides, Claude needs Rhea alive in Verdant Wind because she is the only one who knows about Fódlan’s true history. So, yeah, even if Rhea vanishes for most part 2, she is incredibly important for Fódlan still. 
 

It's not about how important she is as a character in the world, it's about how important she is as a character in the plot. Which is surprisingly not important at all for half the post time skip routes.

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Are you kidding ? This has got to be the most  Ridiculous idea I have ever heard. Why would ever Edelgard want to marry Claude? She makes it very clear after Chapter 6 that she does not trust his origins. Also the game also makes it very clear that Edelgard wants to be one who repairs Fódlan’s system through absolute power ( she accuses the church of splitting of empire’s territories into the Kingdom and Alliance during her declaration of war )  and does not want to share it alongside another monarch. And lastly, Edelgard makes it very clear in AM that she refuses to end the war diplomatically even when cornered, and she openly states in her pre-battle dialogue with Claude that she doesn’t trust him to lead Fódlan because he doesn’t proper understanding of Fódlan’s history despite having similar ideals. And also why would Hubert become Emperor? If Edelgard were to die, there would be a civil war between power hungry nobles all of which are vying for the throne, like Duke Aegir. 

Because she's not an idiot and use of force has failed.

Quote

Rodriguez’s death and how he kills in AM symbolizes two things: #1 Fleche’s death and failure to seek revenge is an example of what fate awaits Dimitri if he continues his path of revenge. #2 Rodrigue’s words on that he should live for himself and not others is what finally returns himself to Normal alongside Byleth. Dimitri’s psychosis is not driven for himself, but to avenge his family. Once he learns to move on, he grows into a truly man. 
 

I just think Its a bit sudden, and I'm not alone on this. The Death Knight could also serve as a warning to Dimitiri as much as fleche does (as is Dimitri was much fuirther gone than fleche was, he was just better at figuring than her).

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That might be seem good from a story perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it is terrible the students are very likely the player has invested the most, so them all leaving is a huge waste of time. 

I said people would hate it. It would indeed be a radical move, but so too was taking your main Lord from you (especially if you made her a dscer and gave her the March ring as I did in my first playthrough  -_- ). But nonetheless I think it would work on a both a story and a gameplay level. Especially if the faculty units are otherwise exclusive to Silver Snow. It would serve to make the route a lot more distinct. But I can completely see how someone could disagree.

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Why would Rhea retreat because of the Almyrans? Claude, like the church and the Kingdom are opposing the Empire. If anything, they should combine forces. And also Dimitri makes it very clear that he is all for fighting against racism, seen as how he defends Dedue. It makes no sense for him to fight the Almyrans. 

It makes less sense to fight each other for no reason, which is what current Grondor is like.

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The reason Edelgard believes the way she does and acts the way does is because of what the Agarthans did to her and her family. Without the experiments and the lies she was fed to about the church of Serios by the Agarthans she would never declare war on the church, nor would she hate nobility, which stems the from the fact that the Nobility are the ones that led to her experiments and the death of her family. 

Its just a very hard pill to swallow that she would ally with the Agarthans after all that. She's doing exactly what they want and it makes her look like an arrogant idiot.

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Hard Disagree. The nukes serve proof of the Agarthan’s power and advancement, the fact they were to blow up an entire foretress to smithereens is proof of their advanced technology and a threat that should not be underestimated nor should they tried to be controlled. 

 

It's not though. Literally nothing changes by removing them. They are by a long mile the worst plot point in the game. The only purpose they serve is to give Hubert a method to find Shambala and that's not something which needed much justification.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Random wedding murder would be a pretty shark-jumping moment for me, so I'm definitely glad that wasn't in.

That's a shark I consider thoroughly jumped with what we did get.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Jotari

[ZeManaphy]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If that was the purpose of the nukes they fail at it utterly. They blow up a fortress, kill zero named characters (on any route), and in no way prevent the player characters from hunting down the Agarthans thereafter. I'm with Jotari on this one. I think you're right that that's what the nukes were intended to do, but like many things related to the Agarthans in the game's writing, they fall flat.

Well, they do kill People at Arianrhod in CF. But Regardless, I actually like how the Agarthans take on more passive roles and manipulate the continent’s politics from the shadows. We see for in the game ourselves, but we don’t actually get to see the whole story; rather, there are bits of knowledge spread throughout the game you are supposed to infer, and that’s to me makes them really compelling: There’s so much we don’t know, and all we know is just a theory with no solid confirmation. It makes them fascinating, and raises our imagination about them. 

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Because she's not an idiot and use of force has failed.

But here’s the thing: Edelgard would never accept mercy; we know this because at the end of AM she literally has lost everything, yet Dimitri offers her mercy. She refuses and proceeds to Stab him one last time in a ditch effort, forcing him to kill him. That’s proof that Edelgard will not accept anything other than absolute victory. 

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I just think Its a bit sudden, and I'm not alone on this. The Death Knight could also serve as a warning to Dimitiri as much as fleche does (as is Dimitri was much fuirther gone than fleche was, he was just better at figuring than her).

How could the Death Knight mimic Fleche? Flèche was motivated because She believed Dimitri killed her brother ( Byleth actually killed her ) and saw to kill him in revenge. It’s the same ideology Dimitri is following. Flèche ends in failure, which is same result would Dimitri would have had if he followed his path of vengeance. Rodrigue’s death by that path of vengeance is a warning for what awaits him if that path is still being followed as well. 
 

Now if you replaced it with the Death Knight, it wouldn’t work because the Death Knight isn’t trying to kill Dimitri for revenge since the only person who the Death Knight cares about is Mercedes, who is part of Dimitri’s class, and thus impossible for him to kill. In other words, the aforementioned symbolism is lost. 
 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It makes less sense to fight each other for no reason, which is what current Grondor is like.

Here’s the thing though. CF the circumstances the war are very different for two reasons: Dimitri formally became King and is sane, while Rhea was not captured. One reason why Edelgard was able to prevent the Kingdom and Alliance armies from meeting up was because of Dimitri’s insanity causing indiscriminate slaughter. That doesn’t happen in CF, so it’s far more justifiable for the two armies to team up against the empire especially with Rhea and the church backing them up. 
 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Its just a very hard pill to swallow that she would ally with the Agarthans after all that. She's doing exactly what they want and it makes her look like an arrogant idiot.

That’s the whole point and tragedy of her character. She could have done things differently, and we the players and the rest of the Three Houses cast  know that while she doesn’t, she lacks the proper perspective on things thanks to Empire’s history and the lies TWSID told her. 
 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Its just a very hard pill to swallow that she would ally with the Agarthans after all that. She's doing exactly what they want and it makes her look like an arrogant idiot.

Fódlan’s history and world lays the foundation to the plot, so I believe that Rhea is an important character to the plot due to her role in its history, even if she is a minor character in part 2. 
 

And something I would address here. “ Minor “ and “ Unimportant  “ are not the same. A character can be minor and still important. A non FE-example would be the Enchantress from Disney’s Beauty and the Beast. She is an incredibly minor character never physically appearing but rather being presented through stain glass windows. Yet without her, the story of Beauty and the Beast would never happen, since the whole point of the film is that the Prince and his servants are cursed and must break the spell that the enchantress cast upon them. 
 

Rhea falls into the same boat: Her lies is what creates the modern system of Fódlan and the fact that someone was able to gauge that Rhea had been hiding critical info starts the war in Three Houses. And even in War Phase, Rhea’s disappearance is the motivator for the Knights of Serios to join with Byleth to rescue her, as well as Claude’s desire to rescue to her to learn the truth about Fódlan’s history, since Rhea is the only who knows the truth. Seteth and Flayn knows parts of it, but the game shows they know not everything Rhea does. Hence why Rhea is important to keep alive even if she’s makes relatively few appearances: She is the crux for many character’s motivations. 

[Jotari]

42 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Well, they do kill People at Arianrhod in CF. But Regardless, I actually like how the Agarthans take on more passive roles and manipulate the continent’s politics from the shadows. We see for in the game ourselves, but we don’t actually get to see the whole story; rather, there are bits of knowledge spread throughout the game you are supposed to infer, and that’s to me makes them really compelling: There’s so much we don’t know, and all we know is just a theory with no solid confirmation. It makes them fascinating, and raises our imagination about them. 

That's precisely why the nukes are so inappropriate for them even if they had been utilized with some degree of competency.

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But here’s the thing: Edelgard would never accept mercy; we know this because at the end of AM she literally has lost everything, yet Dimitri offers her mercy. She refuses and proceeds to Stab him one last time in a ditch effort, forcing him to kill him. That’s proof that Edelgard will not accept anything other than absolute victory. 

It's not mercy though. It an advantageous situation for her. Dimitri offered her nothing but a chance to surrender, Claude could offer her a method to actually unite the continent.

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How could the Death Knight mimic Fleche? Flèche was motivated because She believed Dimitri killed her brother ( Byleth actually killed her ) and saw to kill him in revenge. It’s the same ideology Dimitri is following. Flèche ends in failure, which is same result would Dimitri would have had if he followed his path of vengeance. Rodrigue’s death by that path of vengeance is a warning for what awaits him if that path is still being followed as well. 
 

Now if you replaced it with the Death Knight, it wouldn’t work because the Death Knight isn’t trying to kill Dimitri for revenge since the only person who the Death Knight cares about is Mercedes, who is part of Dimitri’s class, and thus impossible for him to kill. In other words, the aforementioned symbolism is lost. 
 

The Death Knight can show Dimitri the hollowness upon which the path he is undergoing is leading. It's not the same symbolism but it still serves as a foil, as the Death Knight is similar to Dimitri in that they're both people with mental issues born from trauma that are now being used as psychotic killing machines. In addition, the whole point of the change is to stop Dimitri's turn from having such whiplash. Fleche could actually still be part of things, I just think the trigger with Rodrigue is too much of a 180, it makes for an immediate on-off switch for him.

I didn't mention it, but I would also put Dedue returning from the seeming grave as an important part to Dimitri's turn, as it's empirical evidence that the voices in his head aren't real. The only issue there is that perma death and the desire to arbritraly kill Dedue off kind of get in the way of mainline development.

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Here’s the thing though. CF the circumstances the war are very different for two reasons: Dimitri formally became King and is sane, while Rhea was not captured. One reason why Edelgard was able to prevent the Kingdom and Alliance armies from meeting up was because of Dimitri’s insanity causing indiscriminate slaughter. That doesn’t happen in CF, so it’s far more justifiable for the two armies to team up against the empire especially with Rhea and the church backing them up. 
 

I could have expressed it more, but Rhea is running Dimitri's side of things in CF too and has a strong prejudice against Almyrians for not sharing the faith. In other words Rhea more than makes up for Dimitri's lack of craziness with her own.

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That’s the whole point and tragedy of her character. She could have done things differently, and we the players and the rest of the Three Houses cast  know that while she doesn’t, she lacks the proper perspective on things thanks to Empire’s history and the lies TWSID told her. 
 

It's not tragedy though, it's just nonsensical. You can give her the lack of proper perspective without torturing her and murdering her siblings.

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Fódlan’s history and world lays the foundation to the plot, so I believe that Rhea is an important character to the plot due to her role in its history, even if she is a minor character in part 2. 
 

And something I would address here. “ Minor “ and “ Unimportant  “ are not the same. A character can be minor and still important. A non FE-example would be the Enchantress from Disney’s Beauty and the Beast. She is an incredibly minor character never physically appearing but rather being presented through stain glass windows. Yet without her, the story of Beauty and the Beast would never happen, since the whole point of the film is that the Prince and his servants are cursed and must break the spell that the enchantress cast upon them. 

She's not just minor in Part 2, she's non existent. Her status as alive causes more issues than it solves and there is ample reason for her to be dead anyway. Nothing, literally nothing, changes in Azure Moon if she's dead. And the only thing that changes in Verdant Wind is some minor exposition and a more sensical ending.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Jotari

[lenticular]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's precisely why the nukes are so inappropriate for them even if they had been utilized with some degree of competency.

I very much agree with this. If the nukes had to be included in the story, I think it would have been better to have the Agarthans use them only as an act of absolute desparation. For instance, imagine that they had been exposed, the location of Shambhala had been discovered, the player's army was closing in, and they were about to be completely destroyed. Their schemes and plots of the past centuries had all come to nought; their methodology of plotting from the shadows had failed. That's the point when they should have lashed out with their nukes. Not only would this be more consistent with their characterisation but it would also have shown that maybe their defeat wasn't quite as imminent as we'd previously thought.

The way things actually happened, they didn't really have any obvious motivation for deploying their super weapon at the exact time that they did, it didn't succeed in furthering their goals in any way, and actually only worsened their situation by giving away their hidden location. It didn't make me think they were powerful. It made me think they were incompetent.

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah it's kind of a catch-22 of the route. Most of the Eagles feel like they should stick with Edelgard barring Byleth magic charisma mumbo-jumbo. As you note they currently stick with Byleth for gameplay reasons, but it results in a bit of a weird story, and the Eagles feel dreadfully out of place in the scenes thereafter on that route. I'm never sure what the best way is to salvage SS; I think it's the most fundamentally broken part of 3H's story. I definitely agree with Jotari that Rhea should have been more prominent in it, though.

In a lot of ways, I wish that Crimson Flower were a lot more difficult to access and almost like an Easter egg route, as was apparently the original plan. In that case, I think that Silver Snow could have given more focus to the Black Eagles without it feeling either redundant or at odds with Crimson Flower. I think there was potential for an interesting story in having them betraying their homeland because they found Edelgard's actions unconscionable, and watching them struggle to come to terms with the weight of the decision. Though that might require more and bigger changes than @Jotari was aiming for.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Its just a very hard pill to swallow that she would ally with the Agarthans after all that. She's doing exactly what they want and it makes her look like an arrogant idiot.

I think she does come across as an idiot, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I wouldn't characterise it as arrogance so much as naivete. She doesn't realise quite how thoroughly she is being used. By which I mean, she knows that she's being used, but she thinks that she's savvy enough to walk the tightrope and actually be the one who is using the Agarthans. She isn't. They're playing the game at a higher level than she is.

But I think that this is important, because it's the only way for Edelgard to remain as a sympathetic character. If she's been abused, gaslit, and manipulated to become who she is, then she's a tragic villain, someone who could have been a good person, even a hero, but by the circumstances of her life was forced down a dark path. If you get rid of the tragic backstory and just have her be someone who's starting wars and conquering other countries because she thinks that sounds like a real swell idea, then what are you left with? Just another Ashnard? At best?

10 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

And also why would Hubert become Emperor? If Edelgard were to die, there would be a civil war between power hungry nobles all of which are vying for the throne, like Duke Aegir. 

Agree with this. Hubert becoming Emperor doesn't make sense to me, at least not without some pretty major rewriting of characters and lore. I don't see how Hubert would have any claim to the throne, nor the personal power to seize it, nor any particular desire to be Emperor. If Edelgard died but the Empire remained intact as a polity, I think the most likely scenario would be for some distant Hresvelg cousin to be dragged out of the woodwork and put on the throne as another figurehead, similar to how Ionius was.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Though delivered in suitpost format, I was indeed making serious responses. I will make explicit my meanings.

22 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Meanwhile, democratically elected(TM) leaders:

This is a poor criticism of monarchy because people still follow absurd orders from ruinous bureaucrats whether they're chosen by "divine right", "the people", or appointment. It's an issue inherent to authority, not monarchy.

22 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Far be it from me to defend Three Hemorrhoids, but I think there's something tepid-sounding about taking a plot ostensibly about choosing between opposed ideologies and then making the characters less radical.

Alright look, if you make the player pick between Edelgard and Rhea, making them less radical or softer during their campaign is like having your cake and eating it to. "Make the hard choice" but you mitigate the potential negative consequences.

14 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

the Lord’s truths

Dude, is that an implication of personal truth? I don't know man, personal truth is kind of a cringe concept. You might at well not bother with the "truth" part at all.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

Agree with this. Hubert becoming Emperor doesn't make sense to me, at least not without some pretty major rewriting of characters and lore. I don't see how Hubert would have any claim to the throne, nor the personal power to seize it, nor any particular desire to be Emperor. If Edelgard died but the Empire remained intact as a polity, I think the most likely scenario would be for some distant Hresvelg cousin to be dragged out of the woodwork and put on the throne as another figurehead, similar to how Ionius was.

Assuming Arundel is still alive and present when Edelgard dies, wouldn't he take power, in his role as "Regent"? He probably wouldn't proclaim himself Emperor, but he doesn't need to, so long as no one else is recognized as Emperor. Or he could draft a figurehead, as you suggested. 

On 2/11/2022 at 7:41 PM, Jotari said:

All of the Black Eagles except Petra betray you and side with Edelgard after the time skip. Petra stays with you both because she's one of the ones that makes the most sense to fight against the empire and because, thematically, it's important in this route for Rhea to learn to accept the people outside Fodlan as actual people.

IMO Ferdinand should stay too. Since Edelgard forced Duke Aegir out of power, she's essentially marginalized Ferdinand and his family. Politically-speaking, it makes more sense for him to be against the coup - if Edelgard and Arundel are defeated, then Ferdinand has the best claim to rule the Empire.

On 2/11/2022 at 7:41 PM, Jotari said:

In none of the stories do the Agarthans have nukes. Because the nukes were bloody stupid.

This change, I am here for. I wonder what they'd put that cutscene budget to instead...

[lenticular]

14 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Assuming Arundel is still alive and present when Edelgard dies, wouldn't he take power, in his role as "Regent"? He probably wouldn't proclaim himself Emperor, but he doesn't need to, so long as no one else is recognized as Emperor. Or he could draft a figurehead, as you suggested. 

It's difficult to say for sure, since we don't really know what the succession laws are in the Empire. But given that the crown has stayed in the Hresvelg dynasty for a thousand years, I think it's fairly safe to assume that they are very much set up to only allow inheritance within the family. I also think it's fairly safe to assume that there must be some sort of cousin still alive somewhere, since the quality of royal genealogical records tends to be second only to that of thoroughbred horse breeders. I think the more likely problem is that they end up with multiple people claiming to be Emperor rather than nobody claiming to be Emperor. Though, even then, I could easily see Arundel saying that he will stay on as interim regent during the succession dispute to ensure an orderly transfer of power, but then never actually relinquishing the position. But regardless, one thing that I absolutely don't see is how Hubert would end up on the throne.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, lenticular said:

I very much agree with this. If the nukes had to be included in the story, I think it would have been better to have the Agarthans use them only as an act of absolute desparation. For instance, imagine that they had been exposed, the location of Shambhala had been discovered, the player's army was closing in, and they were about to be completely destroyed. Their schemes and plots of the past centuries had all come to nought; their methodology of plotting from the shadows had failed. That's the point when they should have lashed out with their nukes. Not only would this be more consistent with their characterisation but it would also have shown that maybe their defeat wasn't quite as imminent as we'd previously thought.

The way things actually happened, they didn't really have any obvious motivation for deploying their super weapon at the exact time that they did, it didn't succeed in furthering their goals in any way, and actually only worsened their situation by giving away their hidden location. It didn't make me think they were powerful. It made me think they were incompetent.

It's kind of even worse than that. Not only did it fail to give them any advantage in the war and exposed their whereabouts, but in using them at Arianrhod they were nuking their own fortress...with there own soldiers still inside. If they had waited until after the battle when their own forces were out, then the Death Knight (who somehow knew about them for...reasons) wouldn't have been around and they could have wiped out all their enemies in one fell swoop. Or better yet, strike at Baliddyd or Riegan. The amount of chaos that would cause would make proceeding for the heroes basically impossible. They'd need to immediately return home to focus on reconstruction. It's even worse in Crimson Flower where they blow up a fortress they had just gotten a hold of as a dick swinging contest when they could have wiped out the enemies as soon as Garrek Mach was taken. And then they use them to blow up Shambala too (which is similar to that last desperate gasp you were suggesting, but it's understandable that it might slip your mind as, like always, it had basically no bearing on anything). The Agarathans pathologically use the nukes to blow up their own stuff!

5 hours ago, lenticular said:

In a lot of ways, I wish that Crimson Flower were a lot more difficult to access and almost like an Easter egg route, as was apparently the original plan. In that case, I think that Silver Snow could have given more focus to the Black Eagles without it feeling either redundant or at odds with Crimson Flower. I think there was potential for an interesting story in having them betraying their homeland because they found Edelgard's actions unconscionable, and watching them struggle to come to terms with the weight of the decision. Though that might require more and bigger changes than @Jotari was aiming for.

There is some potential there, though it would need a lot more careful set up than the yes no moment we get for choosing the route. It would also turn Silver Snow in to the Black Eagles route rather than the Church route, and the Church kind of deserves its own route (even if the route we did get was identical to Verdant Wind). Could it have been possible to juggle both the Black Eagles and the Church at the same time to make it a route about both of them? Well...maybe, but I can't think of any clear way to do so. There isn't a strong thematic link between the Black Eagles and the Church that could give much focus to both of them. The best method would probably be to make the Black Eagles recruitable enemies you can get near the start of the route, with them initially joining Edelgard but slowly growing doubts as the war accomplished nothing. And I think there were some plans to make them recruitable enemies that were abandoned.

5 hours ago, lenticular said:

I think she does come across as an idiot, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I wouldn't characterise it as arrogance so much as naivete. She doesn't realise quite how thoroughly she is being used. By which I mean, she knows that she's being used, but she thinks that she's savvy enough to walk the tightrope and actually be the one who is using the Agarthans. She isn't. They're playing the game at a higher level than she is.

That's how it should be, that they're playing the game at a much higher level than she is. Because they've had like ten thousand years worth of experience on her and have raised her from childhood, but canonically it isn't. A cut to post game brushes them aside and leaves Edelgard as the winner of the war of assassins.

5 hours ago, lenticular said:

But I think that this is important, because it's the only way for Edelgard to remain as a sympathetic character. If she's been abused, gaslit, and manipulated to become who she is, then she's a tragic villain, someone who could have been a good person, even a hero, but by the circumstances of her life was forced down a dark path. If you get rid of the tragic backstory and just have her be someone who's starting wars and conquering other countries because she thinks that sounds like a real swell idea, then what are you left with? Just another Ashnard? At best?

It is possible, depending on how you build the character. Probably the best example I can think of is Reinhardt from Legend of the Galactic Heroes. He is pretty blatantly starting wars and conquering other countries because he thinks it's a real swell idea. Like, unabashedly so. But he is well enough written that you can sympathize with him and understand with him, even if you completely disagree with him politically. I think Fire Emblem managed to touch on this a bit with Whalhart, not during the course of the game where he's basically an offscreen character, but in his playable form there is an element of "This guy has this strict code that he believes in that is politically incorrect, but he's not an inherently evil person because of it."

6 hours ago, lenticular said:

Agree with this. Hubert becoming Emperor doesn't make sense to me, at least not without some pretty major rewriting of characters and lore. I don't see how Hubert would have any claim to the throne, nor the personal power to seize it, nor any particular desire to be Emperor. If Edelgard died but the Empire remained intact as a polity, I think the most likely scenario would be for some distant Hresvelg cousin to be dragged out of the woodwork and put on the throne as another figurehead, similar to how Ionius was.

The idea is that there would be civil war in Adrestia the moment Edelgard is killed, but that within the chaos of it, Hubert is the one that comes out on top as Edelgard's specifically non dynastical successor (as part of her whole point was to be non dynastic).

2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Alright look, if you make the player pick between Edelgard and Rhea, making them less radical or softer during their campaign is like having your cake and eating it to. "Make the hard choice" but you mitigate the potential negative consequences.

I would not have a problem with going full on evil side route in Fire Emblem, but it's clear that it was never their intention to do anything like that from the start.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This change, I am here for. I wonder what they'd put that cutscene budget to instead...

Rodrigue's death is the most obvious choice, though Crimson Flower has, I think literally, nothing until the final battle. Though there isn't much to really dedicate a cutscene to in Crimson Flower because, honestly, not a tonne actually happens in it.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Isn't the point to nuclear weapons IRL "You can't invade me ever again because Mutually Assured Destruction! Hahaha!" deterrence, and the associated international political leverage that comes with that? I mean, that's where nukes have been successful, we haven't had nuclear aggression since the end of WWII, thankfully.

-Although, there is an oddity here. If The Things That Go Bump In The Night, are the only ones with enriched plutonium, B52s, submarines and Multiple Independently targetable Reentry Vehicle Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles, then does Mutually Assured Destruction exist? What reasons exist to not Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb if you have not a shred of humanity? Is Rhea too good at gobbling up uranium? Can she even be in multiple places hundreds of kilometers apart at once?

Furthermore, if these Darkstalkers are truly mole people as I hear people refer to them as, then why wouldn't they be okay with irradiating the planet's surface? They're used to living underground where the Geiger counters wouldn't be buzzing up a storm. Is conquering the entire continent at the price of a rendering the surface inhabitable really so bad? -Not like you'd need to need to scorch the entire continent either. Just blow up the major cities (you can spare the smaller ones) where the governmental elite and military are, cities tend to be dense and small, so you'd have plenty of countryside free of radiation, where you could built a glorious new capital city, or massive renovate a second-tier metropolis if so desired. And if you've been playing the long game for a thousand years, having to wait a while for the continent you now own to rebuild its population and taxable economy as a result of your acts of obliteration is surely within your attention span.

-Musings of someone loosely following the above conversation, with only a minimal understanding of 3H's plot.

[lenticular]

43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's kind of even worse than that. Not only did it fail to give them any advantage in the war and exposed their whereabouts, but in using them at Arianrhod they were nuking their own fortress...with there own soldiers still inside. If they had waited until after the battle when their own forces were out, then the Death Knight (who somehow knew about them for...reasons) wouldn't have been around and they could have wiped out all their enemies in one fell swoop. Or better yet, strike at Baliddyd or Riegan. The amount of chaos that would cause would make proceeding for the heroes basically impossible. They'd need to immediately return home to focus on reconstruction. It's even worse in Crimson Flower where they blow up a fortress they had just gotten a hold of as a dick swinging contest when they could have wiped out the enemies as soon as Garrek Mach was taken. And then they use them to blow up Shambala too (which is similar to that last desperate gasp you were suggesting, but it's understandable that it might slip your mind as, like always, it had basically no bearing on anything). The Agarathans pathologically use the nukes to blow up their own stuff!

Yeah, I'd basically forgotten about literally all of that. And I make no apology for having done so. Trying to think too hard about the Agarthans is bad for one's mental health.

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There is some potential there, though it would need a lot more careful set up than the yes no moment we get for choosing the route. It would also turn Silver Snow in to the Black Eagles route rather than the Church route, and the Church kind of deserves its own route (even if the route we did get was identical to Verdant Wind). Could it have been possible to juggle both the Black Eagles and the Church at the same time to make it a route about both of them? Well...maybe, but I can't think of any clear way to do so. There isn't a strong thematic link between the Black Eagles and the Church that could give much focus to both of them. The best method would probably be to make the Black Eagles recruitable enemies you can get near the start of the route, with them initially joining Edelgard but slowly growing doubts as the war accomplished nothing. And I think there were some plans to make them recruitable enemies that were abandoned.

I don't think it would have been too difficult to establish connections between the Empire and the Church. It's already there, in a way. There's the links between Rhea and the Hresvelgs, Enbarr having been Rhea and co's base of operation during the War of Heroes, Flayn having been born there, all the Empire nobles carrying Saint crests rather than Elite crests, the Empire having been the original nation that Rhea founded with the Kingdom and alliance breaking from it, and so on. It really wouldn't take a lot of rewriting to really push Adrestia as being the most religious of the three polities, which would then make Edelgard's betrayal all the more shocking while also providing that thematic link to tie things together.

I think that one of the problems with trying to propose potential fixes for Silver Snow is that there isn't really any single simple fix that would make it really work. It has too many problems so it would take a bigger change to get it in order.

57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's how it should be, that they're playing the game at a much higher level than she is. Because they've had like ten thousand years worth of experience on her and have raised her from childhood, but canonically it isn't. A cut to post game brushes them aside and leaves Edelgard as the winner of the war of assassins.

That's a fair point. Though, honestly, I mostly ignore all of the epilogue stuff because I think it's all nonsense. Whenever I see "and they all lived happily ever after", my first thought is pretty much always "no, they really didn't". Having them be brushed aside as barely even an after thought is about as believable as "and then Calude single-handedly solved racism" or "and then the system of meritocracy actually worked despite no efforts being made to address equality of access to education".

I guess that I mostly think of the epilogues as being told by an unreliable narator, even though there's absolutely no reason to suppose that that was the authorial intent. Just another way to avoid thinking about some of the more nonsensical aspects of the plot.

(It also doesn't help that my queer shipper heart is forced to sit through a bunch of heternormative character epilogues, almost all of which I really really want to ignore as hard as I possibly can. I am not incentivised to actually believe in these supposedly happy endings.)

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It is possible, depending on how you build the character. Probably the best example I can think of is Reinhardt from Legend of the Galactic Heroes. He is pretty blatantly starting wars and conquering other countries because he thinks it's a real swell idea. Like, unabashedly so. But he is well enough written that you can sympathize with him and understand with him, even if you completely disagree with him politically. I think Fire Emblem managed to touch on this a bit with Whalhart, not during the course of the game where he's basically an offscreen character, but in his playable form there is an element of "This guy has this strict code that he believes in that is politically incorrect, but he's not an inherently evil person because of it."

Sadly, I've never played (nor heard of) Legend of the Galactic Heroes, and I didn't bother with any of the Spotpass stuff in Awakening (since it all semed fairly ridiculous to me, if I'm being honest), so I can't really comment on either of those examples. I will say that attempts to do that sort of character generally don't work for me, but your mileage may vary.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

The idea is that there would be civil war in Adrestia the moment Edelgard is killed, but that within the chaos of it, Hubert is the one that comes out on top as Edelgard's specifically non dynastical successor (as part of her whole point was to be non dynastic).

That does at least come across as plausible, but it runs into the problem of having lots of big and important events happen off-screen. There was literally a full blown civil war on the other side of the continent and we didn't get to see any of it, let alone participate in it? Or would you have the player as an active participant in the civil war? I'm not really sure I'm understanding exactly what you're imagining here.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Rodrigue's death is the most obvious choice, though Crimson Flower has, I think literally, nothing until the final battle. Though there isn't much to really dedicate a cutscene to in Crimson Flower because, honestly, not a tonne actually happens in it.

One of the big problems with Fire Emblem plots is that they have to be built around the framework of "and we had two dozen pitched battles and won all of them", which isn't exactly a good starting point for a story. Most Fire Emblem games manage to at least do something to shake this up a little (eg, by throwing in a few defend or escape chapters), but Crimson Flower plays it incredibly straight. That really is all that that route is. You have a bunch of pitched battles, and you win all of them.

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Isn't the point to nuclear weapons IRL "You can't invade me ever again because Mutually Assured Destruction! Hahaha!" deterrence, and the associated international political leverage that comes with that? I mean, that's where nukes have been successful, we haven't had nuclear aggression since the end of WWII, thankfully.

-Although, there is an oddity here. If The Things That Go Bump In The Night, are the only ones with enriched plutonium, B52s, submarines and Multiple Independently targetable Reentry Vehicle Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles, then does Mutually Assured Destruction exist? What reasons exist to not Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb if you have not a shred of humanity? Is Rhea too good at gobbling up uranium? Can she even be in multiple places hundreds of kilometers apart at once?

Furthermore, if these Darkstalkers are truly mole people as I hear people refer to them as, then why wouldn't they be okay with irradiating the planet's surface? They're used to living underground where the Geiger counters wouldn't be buzzing up a storm. Is conquering the entire continent at the price of a rendering the surface inhabitable really so bad? -Not like you'd need to need to scorch the entire continent either. Just blow up the major cities (you can spare the smaller ones) where the governmental elite and military are, cities tend to be dense and small, so you'd have plenty of countryside free of radiation, where you could built a glorious new capital city, or massive renovate a second-tier metropolis if so desired. And if you've been playing the long game for a thousand years, having to wait a while for the continent you now own to rebuild its population and taxable economy as a result of your acts of obliteration is surely within your attention span.

-Musings of someone loosely following the above conversation, with only a minimal understanding of 3H's plot.

Rhea most likely couldn't stop the nukes from going off and destroying cities, but she herself can survive them and Garrek Mach in particular is protected from them. So if they did do a society reset then Rhea would continue to be an issue as she would just take charge of the remains (probably blaming the whole thing on Sothis and saying it was the people's punishment for being wicked). So they need to get rid of her one way or another. And Edelgard does seem to be a weapon specifically designed to take out Rhea. That being said, Rhea is incapacitated in 3/4 routes in Part 2, so they absolutely could have nuked the enemy capitals as soon as she was out of the way.

1 minute ago, lenticular said:

Yeah, I'd basically forgotten about literally all of that. And I make no apology for having done so. Trying to think too hard about the Agarthans is bad for one's mental health.

I don't think it would have been too difficult to establish connections between the Empire and the Church. It's already there, in a way. There's the links between Rhea and the Hresvelgs, Enbarr having been Rhea and co's base of operation during the War of Heroes, Flayn having been born there, all the Empire nobles carrying Saint crests rather than Elite crests, the Empire having been the original nation that Rhea founded with the Kingdom and alliance breaking from it, and so on. It really wouldn't take a lot of rewriting to really push Adrestia as being the most religious of the three polities, which would then make Edelgard's betrayal all the more shocking while also providing that thematic link to tie things together.

That's there in the backstory alright, but I didn't really mean the Empire, I meant the Black Eagles, the likes of Bernadetta and Dorothea. I just don't see much room for them in a route dedicated to showing the church's side of things without changing their characters in some large way or just regulating them to what they are currently (gameplay units and little else).

1 minute ago, lenticular said:

I think that one of the problems with trying to propose potential fixes for Silver Snow is that there isn't really any single simple fix that would make it really work. It has too many problems so it would take a bigger change to get it in order.

That's a fair point. Though, honestly, I mostly ignore all of the epilogue stuff because I think it's all nonsense. Whenever I see "and they all lived happily ever after", my first thought is pretty much always "no, they really didn't". Having them be brushed aside as barely even an after thought is about as believable as "and then Calude single-handedly solved racism" or "and then the system of meritocracy actually worked despite no efforts being made to address equality of access to education".

I guess that I mostly think of the epilogues as being told by an unreliable narator, even though there's absolutely no reason to suppose that that was the authorial intent. Just another way to avoid thinking about some of the more nonsensical aspects of the plot.

Well one potential good from Three Hopes if they're going with time travel would be to address the Edelgard Agarthan conflict and possibly see what happens, with it being a shit show enough for one side or the other to resort to dimension hopping (though if the Agarthans were stacking that in addition to ICBMs, perfect body doubles, mechs and a legendary hero it would only make them more ridiculous...actually no, they've already reached peak ridiculousness.

1 minute ago, lenticular said:

That does at least come across as plausible, but it runs into the problem of having lots of big and important events happen off-screen. There was literally a full blown civil war on the other side of the continent and we didn't get to see any of it, let alone participate in it? Or would you have the player as an active participant in the civil war? I'm not really sure I'm understanding exactly what you're imagining here.

Claude would be busy with his own civil war as alliance lords seize power after his scheming resulted in a foreign nation (Almyra) effectively invading their nation and his attempts to resolve the war diplomatically completely fall apart. Hubert then coming out on top for the Adrestian civil war would harkan back to the idea of trust as he would have to go on faith that Hubert is still willing to end hostilities and is genuinely providing intel on Shambala.

1 minute ago, lenticular said:

One of the big problems with Fire Emblem plots is that they have to be built around the framework of "and we had two dozen pitched battles and won all of them", which isn't exactly a good starting point for a story. Most Fire Emblem games manage to at least do something to shake this up a little (eg, by throwing in a few defend or escape chapters), but Crimson Flower plays it incredibly straight. That really is all that that route is. You have a bunch of pitched battles, and you win all of them.

Well it does have the Monastery defense chapter as one that canonically is considered a draw. But really it's the fact that it's so short that doesn't help it. Shadow Dragon (with one minor detour to Pyrathi where Marth involves a neutral third party nation >.>) and Genealogy Gen II pretty much play it straight as well in the "bunch of pitched battles that we all win" scenario. But they're also much longer with more enemies faced making it feel like more of a struggle. And Genealogy has some great stuff going on with Travant and Blume and child hunts and the like that put meaning on the conflict. Crimson Flower is just "battle" "win" "battle" "win" "surprise battle Corneria instead" "win". Nothing actually happens other than Edelgard winning.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Rhea most likely couldn't stop the nukes from going off and destroying cities, but she herself can survive them and Garrek Mach in particular is protected from them. So if they did do a society reset then Rhea would continue to be an issue as she would just take charge of the remains (probably blaming the whole thing on Sothis and saying it was the people's punishment for being wicked). So they need to get rid of her one way or another. And Edelgard does seem to be a weapon specifically designed to take out Rhea. That being said, Rhea is incapacitated in 3/4 routes in Part 2, so they absolutely could have nuked the enemy capitals as soon as she was out of the way.

Reading this, in part because nukes, makes me think we could've gotten Fire Emblem with a Shin Megami Tensei setting. Although, if it were SMT, it'd be Rhea deploying these uber spears to cleanse the places made impure through the influence of the Slytherins.

Whoever made the ruined world, you would still have a demigoddess of the established order and the princes of darkness opposed to the establish order. Each having strengths and weaknesses that negate each other, and keep both from dealing a decisive killing blow to the other, yet they still fight on anyhow. Humanity's survivors being stuck in the middle of this conflict and used in efforts to achieve victory. That is how SMT usually is, parity between Heaven and Hell in midst of the post-apocalypse upon Earth (although, I would say the initial balance of power favors Chaos in Strange Journey, and perhaps Law in SMTII).

[AnonymousSpeed]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

I would not have a problem with going full on evil side route in Fire Emblem, but it's clear that it was never their intention to do anything like that from the start.

Okay. So?

Also smh at extremism = bad, what a tool of the state thing to imply.

[Armchair General]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

we haven't had nuclear aggression since the end of WWII, thankfully.

One of the Soviet commanders during the Cuban Missile Crisis wanted to set off an nuke. Another Soviet officer realized something was wrong with his radar equipment during his stint as an radar tech; he was supposed to escalate that incident, but realized that his early warning system was providing an false alarm.

 

As far as 3H goes, there really isn't much of an way to salvage the story, since Edelgard didn't justify the war against the church with an false flag operation like actual dictators do.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Armchair General

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Reading this, in part because nukes, makes me think we could've gotten Fire Emblem with a Shin Megami Tensei setting. Although, if it were SMT, it'd be Rhea deploying these uber spears to cleanse the places made impure through the influence of the Slytherins.

Whoever made the ruined world, you would still have a demigoddess of the established order and the princes of darkness opposed to the establish order. Each having strengths and weaknesses that negate each other, and keep both from dealing a decisive killing blow to the other, yet they still fight on anyhow. Humanity's survivors being stuck in the middle of this conflict and used in efforts to achieve victory. That is how SMT usually is, parity between Heaven and Hell in midst of the post-apocalypse upon Earth (although, I would say the initial balance of power favors Chaos in Strange Journey, and perhaps Law in SMTII).

Clearly Idols was the better choice....