Dark Holy Elf Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 15 minutes ago, Whisky said: And it’s not the only powerful build in the game, and arguably isn’t the most powerful nor the easiest to create or to use. There are plenty of other very powerful options. Vantage/Wrath builds arguably do the same thing as dodge tanking but better. There’s multiple powerful player phase options that can one shot almost any enemy. There’s powerful Gambits that can allow for some pretty incredible strategies like Retribution and Impregnable Wall. Vantage/Wrath builds are nice too, but there's a reason they're usually not in a discussion for "overpowered". There's a number of ways they're less powerful than dodgetanking: The biggest one is that they are vulnerable to more things. A Vantage/Wrath-build fears anything it can't counter (siege weapons) or kill (tanky enemies like monsters and armours, but also anything it misses or fails to critical so e.g. highly evasive enemies can be dangers, so can enemies with Miracle, etc.). A dodgetank build really only fears gambits, and it fears them less than vantage-builds do because it will be at 100% HP instead of sub-50%. One gambit will never kill a dodgetank; it'll take (usually multiple) followup hits to do it, which will each still be subject to the dodgetank's high evade or charm (yes, rattle takes away a few points of speed and your battalion, but that's probably only around ~15 points, and 15% displayed hit still almost always misses). Related to the above, but the stat thresholds for effective dodgetanking are just much more forgiving. You really only need good evade and good charm. For Vantage-builds, you need good charm, good atk, good hit, AND good crit. Wraith is gained by mastering a (bad) Advanced class. In my experience this takes longer than getting even Alert Stance+. Even assuming you gain them around the same time, though, there's the fact that Mercenary and Warrior are not good classes, while Pegasus Knight and Wyvern Rider are, which I don't consider a small thing myself when the biggest valid complaint about these builds is that they don't help you early. Vantage-builds require you to find a way to drop safely to low HP every battle to be activated, and also to avoid effects which might raise the character up to higher HP thereafter. Not the most onerous requirements in the world, but still definitely a notable bullet point in the competition for "easiest to use" which you mentioned. Impregnable Wall is great as well. It comes online before dodgetanking (barring grinding), which is nice for sure, but it certainly has its own limitations. It's limited to five shots per map, it requires a range-1 action from a unit who won't themselves be protected by it, and it means your tank has no ability to deal damage back to enemies. As for Retribution, it's not in competition with the dodgetank role; in fact, it synergizes well with them. Dodgetanking is actually the easiest way to enable the power of Retribution; being able to counter everything is only useful if you also have a method of surviving things on the enemy phase. Dodgetanking is very effective and flexible because (a) you can stack offensive countermeasures with it, but also (b) you don't have to. Good player phase tools are obviously nice (and I even agree with you that broadly, I prefer player phase strategies in this game), but they largely replace each other. There are many, many ways to one-round single enemies on the player phase in this game (brave weapons, brave combat arts, stacking atk/speed the old-fashioned way, stacked magic damage, hunter's volley, fierce iron fist, vengeance, atrocity) but that means no given one of them can be considered overpowered. (The possible exception to this statement is Raging Storm, since that goes beyond just killing one enemy.) 9 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Adjutant slots are not unlimited. By giving a flier an adjutant, that's one less guard adjutant for your frontliners that certainly get more out of it. Reduced damage and guaranteed survival on doubles, on top of the hit/avoid boost? Better be worth it to give that up. To say nothing of Special Ally bonuses that are easier to coordinate when the special, recruited ally doesn't require the levels/ranks to class into a Wyvern Rider. I think Snowfire did a good job of responding to your points and I generally second him, but I did want to chime in on this. Broadly speaking, adjutants are powerful for anyone; you already know all the reasons. If you feel someone else is getting more out of an adjutant than your dodgetank, that's fair. But if so it speaks to the immense power of dodgetanks, because if it's true, it's only true because your dodgetank is already effectively invincible without one. Which, to be clear, can certainly be the case! For any given map you can look at enemy stats and decide if you think an adjutantless-dodgetank is safe enough to use. If your dodgetank is still at a point where +10 avoid is the difference between you feeling confident to use them or not (e.g. it's turning 20 average displayed hit into 10), then that's a more potent boost to survival than non-lethal doubles. If it's turning 5 (i.e. 1/200 real) displayed hit into 0, then I'd agree that it's doing very little, and yeah, sure, put that adjutant on someone else. It's a strength of the build that you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisky Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 @Dark Holy Elf Those are all fair points. Dodge tanking and Vantage/Wrath both seem to have pros and cons compared to each other, which makes me hesitate to call either of them overpowered. Vantage/Wrath builds might not be as good at avoiding damage, but they are better at dealing damage back to their enemies. If they require more investment and higher stat thresholds then that’s a fair point, but there are variations of the build that require less. A lot of people consider Dimitri’s Battalion Wrath/Vantage combo to be overpowered, and it certainly does seem really good though I haven’t used it myself yet. Not being good against enemies that it can’t counter can be mitigated by Retribution. Impregnable Wall has limitations, but it’s easy to use and is very versatile. I like it a lot, maybe to the point of being a little biased. It’s nice that you get it and can immediately start utilizing, combining with various other strategies. You don’t need to build specifically for it. Flyer classes being good, and especially better than mediocre classes like Warrior is a good point. Flyer classes are great whether you’re dodge tanking or not, whereas I would recommended staying away from Warrior unless you’re specifically there for Wrath (or maybe as a stepping stone to Warmaster). So you would say that dodge tanking could be considered overpowered because there isn’t any other way to do what it does as good as it does, at least not in every way, whereas there are multiple strong player phase options that are mostly interchangeable? That’s a fair perspective. I might take Shanty Pete’s perspective though, that ultimately dodge tanking is a means to the end of clearing the chapter, and there are multiple other ways to accomplish that. In a lot of chapters I found the easiest way to clear them reliably was by boss rushing / Warp skipping, which high mobility options help with a lot. Maybe dodge tanking can help with those strategies too though? Personally the way I typically think of something being broken or overpowered would be something that you basically get for free and is immediately super good even without knowing the best way to use it. If something requires a lot of investment and knowing how to best build and utilize it, hey, kudos to the player for figuring that out. That’s not the thing being overpowered, that’s the player being good for figuring out how to utilize the game’s tools and mechanics. That’s my perspective anyway. Obviously it depends on the extent of just how strong the thing in question is though. Plus this becomes somewhat of a moot point when people look up the best builds instead of figuring them out themselves so this perspective might be a bit flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Holy Elf Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, Whisky said: Dodge tanking and Vantage/Wrath both seem to have pros and cons compared to each other, which makes me hesitate to call either of them overpowered. Vantage/Wrath builds might not be as good at avoiding damage, but they are better at dealing damage back to their enemies ... Not being good against enemies that it can’t counter can be mitigated by Retribution. Well, keep in mind that dodgetanks can do the exact same damage back with Battalion Wrath. It's a fair point that not everyone gets that, though, and in particular on Lions runs you'll have to recruit someone who has both a flying boon and Battalion Wrath if you're trying to optimize the build (Petra). I think it's also fair to prefer Wrath to Battalion Wrath once you have both, since you don't need to worry about incidental damage endangering your battalion and needing to potentially re-prep one. Retribution is helpful (and I would consider it a given for a Vantage/Wrath build, though it's worth noting that on non-Lions routes it does require A authority), but still doesn't allow counters to siege weapons, leaving them as a hole. Sacred Shield can help seal that hole, but again that's Lions only. Broadly I agree with you otherwise. I definitely think there's an interesting conversation of what qualifies as "overpowered" since the answer isn't self-evident in a single-player game IMO. I don't really consider warpskipping as overpowered as dodgetanking for reasons I gave in a response earlier but they're very hard to compare directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticular Posted September 2, 2022 Author Share Posted September 2, 2022 On 9/1/2022 at 4:45 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: I would absolutely like to see a Ranking system make a return. Definitely with Survival and Turncount rankings, but possibly also EXP, Combat, and Funds. Maybe a "Completeness" ranking, that asks whether you recruited all possible units and went to every paralogue. They could even incorporate the Turnwheel, or Pulse, or whatever future substitute exists, into it. Have a rating that goes down when you use it, so players who can beat the map without a rewind get recognized for it. You know, this is probably worth a topic of it's own over in the General FE forum. I would be glad if someone else feels like making one, otherwise I might get around to it At Some Point. On 9/1/2022 at 4:45 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: I do wonder whether, for speedrunning, dodgetanking would be the optimal approach. Not a lot of thought goes into it, sure. But people who are experts at rapid menu navigation may be able to put all the pieces for a low-turn clear together in less time than it would take to just deal with swarms of enemies. I could see this going either way. I'm in no way an expert here, but I have seen a few speedruns of Three Houses, and I don't think they use dodge tank strats. And yeah, I think that part of the reason for that is what you identify about people who are well practiced being able to execute movements very quickly, especially when they don't actually have to think about what they're going to do beforehand, sicne they've memorised the tactics for every map. But beyond that, I think that the time spent bringing the build online would be an issue for speedruns. All of that said, though, I believe that the vast majority of speedruns are done on Normal difficulty, which is very different from Maddening. And I would definitely think that Normal is another framework in which dodge tanks are not overpowered. Not that they aren't still incredibly strong in Normal, but a lot of things are incredibly strong in Normal, so they're not as far ahead of other options. That's probably true on Hard as well, honestly. It's only really on Maddening where other options really start to decline but dodge tanks remain as strong as ever. 14 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: My question went unnoticed so I'll ask again. How early does an avoid build really come together? Most of the hardest maps on Maddening are pre-time skip, so it's a pretty vital part of the equation I haven't seen explored in all these writeups on Avoid stacking. If dodge tanking is only notable near the end of the game, at the same point or later than other finished builds, then can it really be said to be "too good" instead of just "an option"? I think that it's an interesting question to consider, how late in the game must an overpowered option become available for it to not be a problem? Like, I don't think it's controversial to say that the Laguz Royals in Path of Radiance are overpowered, but I also don't think I've ever seen anyone say that they unbalance the game. You only get to play with them for the last map/half of the last map (depending on difficulty), so no matter how busted they were, the worst they could do to game balance would be to turn the final chapter into a victory lap. There's no definitive answer here, and "how soon is too soon?" is going to vary a lot from person to person, but for me, probably I'm only willing to put up with a couple of maps with overpowered options before I get bored. And while dodge tank availability is going to vary a lot based on play style, how much you're willing to grind, and how much favouritism you're willing to show, I think they're clearly available sooner than that for the vast majority of people. 3 hours ago, Whisky said: Personally the way I typically think of something being broken or overpowered would be something that you basically get for free and is immediately super good even without knowing the best way to use it. If something requires a lot of investment and knowing how to best build and utilize it, hey, kudos to the player for figuring that out. That’s not the thing being overpowered, that’s the player being good for figuring out how to utilize the game’s tools and mechanics. That’s my perspective anyway. Obviously it depends on the extent of just how strong the thing in question is though. Plus this becomes somewhat of a moot point when people look up the best builds instead of figuring them out themselves so this perspective might be a bit flawed. I don't think it's exactly a difficult build to figure out. "Hey, the game is giving me a few different options for making my units harder to hit. I wonder what would happen if I put all of them on the same unit." I don't think it takes a genius to come up with that idea. That doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is going to see it, but I think that for anyone who's interested in trying to optimise the game and come up with interesting builds, this is one of the most immediately accessible and obvious ones. Maybe I'm wrong here and it's less obvious than I think it is? 3 hours ago, Whisky said: Dodge tanking and Vantage/Wrath both seem to have pros and cons compared to each other, which makes me hesitate to call either of them overpowered. Vantage/Wrath builds might not be as good at avoiding damage, but they are better at dealing damage back to their enemies. If they require more investment and higher stat thresholds then that’s a fair point, but there are variations of the build that require less. A lot of people consider Dimitri’s Battalion Wrath/Vantage combo to be overpowered, and it certainly does seem really good though I haven’t used it myself yet. Not being good against enemies that it can’t counter can be mitigated by Retribution. There are multiple different ways to do a vantage/wrath style build, but all of them have pretty substantial weaknesses: B. Vantage + B. Wrath is pretty great, but its main weakness is that it's only available on a single unit who is only available on a single route. Wrath + Vantage requires mastering a mediocre advanced class, and requires you to be at low health, meaning that you only typically need one thing to go wrong in order to die. Vantage + B. Wrath dispenses with the need to master Warrior, but retains the drawback of low health, and adds in the extra problem of juggling battalion endurance as well, with the notable clash between needing to lose health to make Vantage work but wanting to avoid losing health since you don't want your battalion to break. Wrath + B. Vantage is technically possible, but I dont think I've ever seen anyone suggest it, even as a joke. It combines all the worst parts of the two previous options. Vantage + Defiant Crit requires mastering Wyvern Lord instead of Warrior. And on the one hand, this is a much better class, but on the other hand you're not going to be able to pick it up until considerably later. 3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Broadly I agree with you otherwise. I definitely think there's an interesting conversation of what qualifies as "overpowered" since the answer isn't self-evident in a single-player game IMO. I don't really consider warpskipping as overpowered as dodgetanking for reasons I gave in a response earlier but they're very hard to compare directly. Yeah, that was a big part of the reason I made this thread in the first place. It isn't a simple question, and there's obviously going to be a lot of subjectivity involved. I was interested to see what different people thought about the issue, and what their thoughts and feelings are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bylift Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 replying to the OP: The game funnels you to (ab)using dodge tanks by bloating enemy stats to the point where everyone gets ORKO and forcing you to move quickly to avoid reinforcements or meet objectives. I just dont have the patience to not use them. I dont mind them being OP, because maddening mode is nuts without them. Doable, but not enjoyable, at least to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisky Posted September 3, 2022 Share Posted September 3, 2022 20 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Broadly I agree with you otherwise. I definitely think there's an interesting conversation of what qualifies as "overpowered" since the answer isn't self-evident in a single-player game IMO. I don't really consider warpskipping as overpowered as dodgetanking for reasons I gave in a response earlier but they're very hard to compare directly. Yeah, it's an interesting question. Some things are more obviously overpowered and then there's things that are more debatable. Ultimately it is subjective and no one can be wrong for having different perspectives on it so it's interesting to see what other people think about it. What are the key points that make something overpowered? Different people could have different answers, it could be how powerful the thing is compared to other options, it could be how early the thing is accessible, it could be how easy the thing is to use, etc. Obviously it's a combination of things but people could have different things they prioritize. I definitely understand why people would consider dodge tanking overpowered. For multiplayer competitive games of course it matters a lot more whereas in a single player game there's always going to be that question of if it even matters if something is overpowered. In Smash Bros Brawl, Meta Knight requires a high level of skill and practice to be really good with but that doesn't mean he isn't OP. People are just going to focus on practicing with him because they know that he's their best chance of winning so my 'investment and ease of use' argument doesn't work here. But if we stretch it to the extreme, then it could apply again. If being good with Meta Knight required basically super human skill and only a few people in the world could do it while most people were better with other characters, then it would again become a feat of the player being good and not the character being too OP. If a character was both really good and really simple to use to the point that a beginner with that character could beat a more experienced player with a different character then I think we'd all agree that that would be more OP. 17 hours ago, lenticular said: I don't think it's exactly a difficult build to figure out. "Hey, the game is giving me a few different options for making my units harder to hit. I wonder what would happen if I put all of them on the same unit." I don't think it takes a genius to come up with that idea. That doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is going to see it, but I think that for anyone who's interested in trying to optimise the game and come up with interesting builds, this is one of the most immediately accessible and obvious ones. Maybe I'm wrong here and it's less obvious than I think it is? It's not super complicated or anything, but I think it does require some level of knowledge and planning. I don't think someone could do it on their first playthrough, at least not as effectively as it can be. A first time player wouldn't even know what those different options are or how to get them. Even if they think of the idea to make a dodge tank they wouldn't know the best way to do it. If there was a a single item that you equipped that instantly turns a character into a dodge tank, that would obviously be more overpowered. I still understand why people would consider dodge tanking overpowered as it is though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticular Posted September 4, 2022 Author Share Posted September 4, 2022 6 hours ago, Whisky said: It's not super complicated or anything, but I think it does require some level of knowledge and planning. I don't think someone could do it on their first playthrough, at least not as effectively as it can be. A first time player wouldn't even know what those different options are or how to get them. Even if they think of the idea to make a dodge tank they wouldn't know the best way to do it. If there was a a single item that you equipped that instantly turns a character into a dodge tank, that would obviously be more overpowered. I still understand why people would consider dodge tanking overpowered as it is though. Ahhhh, I see where you're coming from. And yeah, that's fair enough. They're certainly not as obvious as some other overpowered choices that other FE games have. Stuff like Pair Up (Awakening), Invoke (Shadows of Valentia), or Seth (Sacred Stones) are just given to you in a straight up overpowered form that requires no thought or effort beyond "use this thing". Certainly they are easier to make overpowered than Three Houses dodge tanking. I still think that Three Houses dodge tanking is too powerful compared to how much effort it takes, but I understand your point of view now too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) Four notifications and only one offers an answer to the question. Not even an anecdote from the OP about a strat he apparently uses so much he's sick of. Is this some low key troll, or are we keeping alive the SF tradition of "nobody posting here plays the game"? On 9/2/2022 at 4:11 AM, haarhaarhaar said: In my experience, reliable dodge tanking has come online from anywhere between Chapter 9 and Chapter 16, depending on the run, the type of dodge tank I've tried out, and how much effort I have put into raising them. Maybe you could do it earlier, I just haven't bothered to try. But even a dodge tank that comes online at Chapter 16 (provided you're not on CF I guess) still arrives early enough to be called "too good", because you've got up to roughly a third of the game where combat lacks significant or salient risk. It might be the case that later maps don't challenge you even without a dodge tank, but that doesn't mean a dodge tank doesn't make them (even) easier. And that's all that matters, as acknowledged in the OP: Reliable enemy phase dodge tanking (to me defined as getting all enemy physical hit rates no higher than displayed 25), I definitely don't see that happening any earlier than chapter 9, because you don't even have Sword Avo +20 for that final push. And if you do make use of that dancer skill, I guess we're not running a dancer in this run. In my current run I got my first unit to B authority (Byleth, who obviously has a big headstart and a proficiency, and I likely faculty trained once or twice in Authority by that point) in chapter 9, so I'd disqualify the prospect of Gautier Knights or Galatea Pegasus unless we're allowing infinite rusted weapon grinding (we are not). B in flying is... possible, at great investment and specifically on women by chapter 9. Chapter 5's saint statue bonus for flying is huge. +2 flying exp on every round of combat as a pegasus knight when not dismounted (not taking advantage of terrain though, which sucks). And the skill exp gap from E to B is less than half the gap from B to A+. But I think you've got to be tutoring them in flying long before then, giving up the prospect of Brigand or any other intermediate class unless they naturally meet the requirements. Ingrid hitting B flying sounds very manageable, since she almost certifies as a pegasus at level 1, and certainly as an early recruit. Anyone else is pushing these benchmarks. So where does that leave us in chapter 9? +15 Alert stance. +10 from Claude's Evasion Ring, if you're not playing his route and come in with seal speed and rally speed to make that Steal happen. +15 from Jeralt's Mercs, or +5 from Seiros Pegasus batallion for fliers, +20 from holding a sword if they're your dancer, +10 if they're a pegasus knight. About 15 base speed, give or take a few points. 8-10 from weapon prowess 2. Hopefully no weapon dragging down our AS. 85 avoid on a max invested unit who is a dancer that doesn't dance OR ~65 avoid on a pegasus knight. Did I miss anything? Because the enemies still have up to 20-50 hit on our pegasus knight before we step into a forest tile. There's a lot of forests in pre-time skip paralogues, but not so much in main missions. And post time skip in general eases off the heavily forested maps, paralogues included. Very few enemy waves have conveniently placed forest tiles in front of them you can slip into without thief or flier movement. And it's not even as foolproof as Impregnable Wall (first available in chapter 8 on all routes), because they're still somewhat vulnerable to magic (more so from Dark mages who, if they attack you from adjacent range, earn +20 hit for themselves, and every enemy attacking after them), and highly vulnerable to gambits. And finally, somebody with that gambit on them doesn't need a forest tile, they can decoy on any point of the map. On 9/2/2022 at 4:11 AM, haarhaarhaar said: The original point is that the dodge tank trivialises what comes after it starts to work, which impacts the balance of the game as a whole, not that it can trivialise every level in the game. Availability matters, is my point. If you're talking about a strat that only comes into play when the hard content is over, then it's not impacting your playthrough nearly as much. The post time skip maps that compare to the hardest maps of pre-time skip are chapter 13, the two monster superboss paralogues, and SS finale. CF only plays one of these maps if you recruited Leonie. If availability doesn't matter, then Vantage/Wrath/Defiant Crit is "Too good" too. Anybody in the game can become Mini-Dimitri with the highest skill exp requirement being B+ axes for Warrior. And if they have Batallion Vantage/Wrath, that's one less class to certify/master. Also, regarding chapter 16, not to split hairs but there's definitely not a third of the game left. A quarter is much more precise. The only way I'd see it be a third remaining is if you specifically unlocked every post time skip paralogue available for AM or VW and elected to marathon them several chapters after they're first available. But chapter 16 is the fifth last month of the game (fourth last on SS, third last on CF). When I think of "too good" strategies that come online before the timeskip, I first think of Snipers. Any aspiring sniper can master that class before the time skip without any special investment. Shamir can be firing off Hunter's Volley even sooner than that. Next up is grapplers. Death Blow and Str +2 on its own is sufficient for Brigands to begin securing ORKOs, but Grappler's fistfaire is further assurance against any harsh strength screwage. FIF is unnecessary beyond monster-sized HP pools, and personally I give them the experience gem over the knowledge gem since they want level 30 more than any other build in the game does. And between healing focus and free movement in forests, they generally don't require Physic support to stay alive. Catherine is another zero investment build. Her base swordmaster and thunderbrand is overkill for chapter 5, and assassin is easy to class into for better movement later. And if repairing that relic seems too costly for your early game wallet, there's also the rapier+ which is as cheap as an iron sword - best weapon in the game. But I would advise you try punching too. If she doesn't quad enemies, Nimble Combo's got a 70% chance on each swing to proc her crest. I can confirm she's got Training/Steel Gauntlet ORKOs on all enemy types before Death Blow, except maaaybe the two armor knights of chapter 5. Thunderbrand them or let your mages play the game. Edited September 4, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Holy Elf Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 55 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Four notifications and only one offers an answer to the question. Not even an anecdote from the OP about a strat he apparently uses so much he's sick of. Is this some low key troll, or are we keeping alive the SF tradition of "nobody posting here plays the game"? So, in a topic where everyone is otherwise treating each other with respect, you come in, whine that your question is not getting enough attention, misgender the OP, and then call someone else a troll? Okay then. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is just a slightly scatterbrained attempt at humour, but it isn't a good look. 58 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: So where does that leave us in chapter 9? +15 Alert stance. +10 from Claude's Evasion Ring, if you're not playing his route and come in with seal speed and rally speed to make that Steal happen. +15 from Jeralt's Mercs, or +5 from Seiros Pegasus batallion for fliers, +20 from holding a sword if they're your dancer, +10 if they're a pegasus knight. About 15 base speed, give or take a few points. 8-10 from weapon prowess 2. Hopefully no weapon dragging down our AS. 85 avoid on a max invested unit who is a dancer that doesn't dance OR ~65 avoid on a pegasus knight. Did I miss anything? Because the enemies still have up to 20-50 hit on our pegasus knight before we step into a forest tile. 15 speed is pretty low for this point (e.g. in-house pegasus/wyvern rider Petra averages ~25 at Level 20, heck Wyvern Raphael has 17). B authority is surely just around the corner at this point (which means +20 either from a foot class or Pegasus+Galatea); Claude is already there, though can't be Pegasus of course. You missed the B rank adjutant as well. So that's 75+ avoid without the dancer sacrifice already, plus the potential Evasion Ring via steal shenanigans or DLC. Having said that, I don't think whether it's online by chapter 9 or not is really that important. You can hit Alert Stance+ by Chapter 12-13 which is what you really want it for, of course. 1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: There's a lot of forests in pre-time skip paralogues, but not so much in main missions. Every pre-timeskip main mission from chapter 7 onwards has forests or similar, with the sole exception of Chapter 11 (which IMO is one of the easiest chapters in the game even if you don't just waltz over and quickly kill the boss with a flier and/or siege tomes). 1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: When I think of "too good" strategies that come online before the timeskip, I first think of Snipers. Any aspiring sniper can master that class before the time skip without any special investment. Shamir can be firing off Hunter's Volley even sooner than that. Sniper's good, but outside Shamir you get Alert Stance+ at least as fast as mastering Sniper in my experience (consider that in order to just qualify for Sniper, you'll need a B+). They also kill one enemy per turn, that's cool but there are lots of ways to do that (admittedly it's one of the easiest), so I wouldn't call it game-breaking. One well-built Sniper is useful but does not win Reunion at Dawn for you by itself, one well-built dodgetank basically does (with the caveat that this is a bit harder to do on AM than VW/SS; still possible though). Catherine's very good. She's not available to the Eagles, does miss a few key maps (7/10/13). I hesitate to call her a "build" but I kinda see what you're getting at. Of note, though, Claude is typically considered an even better unit than Catherine (you can argue this of course), and I'd say a big part of this is how well he slides into the dodgetank role (boons in pretty much everything relevant, high speed/charm, Battalion Wrath if you wish... only downside is no Pegasus Knight). 1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Availability matters, is my point. If you're talking about a strat that only comes into play when the hard content is over, then it's not impacting your playthrough nearly as much. The post time skip maps that compare to the hardest maps of pre-time skip are chapter 13, the two monster superboss paralogues, and SS finale. Well, what do you consider the hard content pre-skip? I'd personally say it's chapters 1, 3 (if you don't memorize or look up the enemy locations), and 5 (mostly the pass reinforcements). All of which are so early that most "build" options are of little help. Chapter 1 you have fixed setups for, Chapter 3 is little better. Only in 5 does your setup do much to help, and even then most of the things being floated here aren't around by then. If you're playing the Deer it's possible to beeline for Warp and use it to skip this map (although I tend not to for a few reasons, it's a big loss of training time / Accuracy Ring). Catherine's nice to recruit for Lions/Deer as you mentioned. But otherwise, most things that might be considered part of your build (not to mention most things being discussed in this thread) don't exist then, so that's not a particular point against dodgetanking. Now, if you actually feel something like, say, chapter 8-10 is particularly tough, then you can argue dodgetanking isn't online then and this is a notable point against, but personally I find that stretch of the game quite easy. Some of the part 1 paralogues are potentially tricky but every single one can be made relatively simple by the one simple trick of "just do it a bit later". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 12 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Chapter 3 is little better. Speaking of, has anyone here actually managed to have Catherine's grunts survive that chapter on Maddening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowFire Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Reliable enemy phase dodge tanking (to me defined as getting all enemy physical hit rates no higher than displayed 25) Ah, here's the issue. I think you're being too harsh here. Yeah, full end-game dodgetanking allows some truly disrespectful plays, like throwing a flyer to lure a screenful of enemies on a wild goose chase, is pretty fun. (I think I sent Ingrid to one half of the Fort Merceus map on AM for her to distract the enemies over there, while the entire rest of the team went the other half.) But dodgetanking "lite" is perfectly acceptable as well. Maybe your Chapter 9 Pegasus Knight only has regular Alert Stance, and you missed the Evasion Ring, and there's no Forest nearby, so she only knocks enemies to 40-55 Hit. Fine. That's still great, though; throw in some supports and Swordbreaker and she can still bait smaller numbers of enemies forward safely, as long as she isn't flat OHKO'd. If there was some hack of the game that prevented enemy non-gambit hit rates from dropping below 40, dodgetanks would still be handy for efficient baiting that often doesn't cost a heal / battalion endurance, as long as they were sturdy enough to take the occasional hits that sneak through. I am totally down for Sniper's HV, Impregnable Wall, and Grappler's FIF hype. They're all extremely good too. Don't think that changes that the way in which Dodgetanking is broken is warping for game balance when played at a high-level. Notably, I think Wall is absurdly amazing, but as good as Wall is, there are "only" 5 charges on it (which is arguably 3 too many), while dodgetanking functions as many turns as you need it. Edited September 4, 2022 by SnowFire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticular Posted September 4, 2022 Author Share Posted September 4, 2022 14 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Four notifications and only one offers an answer to the question. Not even an anecdote from the OP about a strat he apparently uses so much he's sick of. Is this some low key troll, or are we keeping alive the SF tradition of "nobody posting here plays the game"? First: The little "pronouns" part of our profiles exists for a reason. Please use it. Second: I have no idea why you think that I use dodge tanks so much that I am sick of them. I've reread everything I said in this thread, and can't see anything that would cause that misunderstanding. In actuality, I don't use dodge tanks very much because I don't enjoy using them. Right in the original post, I said: "I find this to be an incredibly boring way to play, so I typically limit my use of dodge tanks". Third: Why do you need more than one person to answer your question? I didn't answer because there didn't seem any point in repeating what had already been said but in slightly different words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: So, in a topic where everyone is otherwise treating each other with respect, you come in, whine that your question is not getting enough attention, misgender the OP, and then call someone else a troll? Okay then. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is just a slightly scatterbrained attempt at humour, but it isn't a good look. I apologize for misgendering, it certainly wasn't intentional. There are ways of pointing out my mistake without making accusations, however. I would be happy to demonstrate this if you need. I got frustrated with three of the four responses I got because I thought it was a straightforward, easy to answer, pertinent question that folks were making a show of not answering as they directly quoted it. Offering instead nitpicks, misinterpretations of what I wrote, and "I don't think so" opinions that don't warrant any sort of response. But now I've read your second attempt at a response and I'm seeing more of the same, with again no answer to the question. If trolling is not your intent, then surely you can see what that looks like from my perspective. Some of your nitpicks this time are pertinent however, so let's explore them. I'll just take a guess that you agree with the chapter 9 assessment: Quote 15 speed is pretty low for this point (e.g. in-house pegasus/wyvern rider Petra averages ~25 at Level 20, heck Wyvern Raphael has 17). Hitting level 20 by the start of chapter 9, and certifying for an advanced class is a little iffy for any unit, and depends on having done many of the available paralogues. I had done four by this point in my run, and only two of my units hit level 20. Three or four more would hit level 20 by the end of the month (where I had done another THREE paralogues), but the only two that hit level 20 AND certified as their advanced class were Grappler Dedue and Assassin Catherine, both are extremely low investment units compared to any flier who's name isn't Ingrid. Despite Dimitri and Felix exclusively using gauntlets from level 1 and receiving plenty of help via instructions throughout the run, they fell short of B+ brawling until later. Byleth too, but she can't become a grappler to begin with, so I stopped at B and focused getting her into assassin/fortress knight, she finally achieved both in chapter 12. Also, I did say base speed didn't I? But you're right, class stat bonuses factor in too. Dismounted Wyvern Raphael has exactly 15 speed, because it's a +1, not a +3. Dismounted level 20 Petra is a 23. I thought 15 was a good, average benchmark because I feel like we ought to bring all physically-inclined units into the conversation, instead of just Petra/Ingrid. But perhaps it's more honest to bump it up to an average of 19. Quote B authority is surely just around the corner at this point (which means +20 either from a foot class or Pegasus+Galatea); Claude is already there, though can't be Pegasus of course. Is Claude already there? Because my Dimitri was not, though he managed by the end of the month (actually, I remember I put him in the Lord class for chapter 5, that gave him a nice boost, considering that's a contender for the absolute longest map of the entire game). I already mentioned this, but Byleth was the only unit that attained B authority by the start of chapter 9, and beyond simply being Byleth, she had help with faculty training. I had a very specific strategy in mind for the Sothis paralogue, but didn't want to put it off any longer because of the ever-important Knowledge Gem. My run is at the start of chapter 14 at time of writing, and just four units in my roster have managed B authority (Byleth, Dimitri, Dedue, Catherine). Granted, 7 of the other 8 of my units are recruits, but they've definitely got a lot more instructions and Goal Time with authority than in the average run just due certain factors. B authority in my experience is typically a "Chapter 13/14-ish" benchmark when the unit lacks a proficiency and the D rank headstart at level 1/recruitment (Catherine begins at D, btw). An in-house unit can get there a chapter or two sooner, provided they aren't Felix or Hilda. You can of course invest in their authority, but only at the direct expense of other, more pertinent skill ranks. By chapter 9, you're too focused on that B rank flying benchmark to have spent time any serious time on weapon skills, let alone authority. Quote You missed the B rank adjutant as well. I reconsidered this and remembered that linked attack bonuses only apply to player phase, not enemy phase. Assuming Adjutants are consistent with linked attacks in this regard, we don't need to consider this mechanic for this topic. Since nobody brought this to my attention, I'm guessing this is news to many of you as well, so something good came of this. Quote Every pre-timeskip main mission from chapter 7 onwards has forests or similar, with the sole exception of Chapter 11 (which IMO is one of the easiest chapters in the game even if you don't just waltz over and quickly kill the boss with a flier and/or siege tomes). We're talking about chapter 9, not 7. And simply pointing out that there is a forest tile, somewhere, is not what I described as a "heavily forrested map". You simply can't lure every enemy on a map from forest tiles. Many don't have one nearby, and many more aggro toward you of their own volition, in which case there is no need of luring them. Chapter 10 is the exception I had in mind when I made this distinction. Forest tiles play a potential role in proximity to almost every enemy of that map. And chapter 12, the map is pretty much over before your units have touched any grass. By then you've secured the map and the remaining enemies are walking toward you. Maybe you're out there squeezing some extra exp off routing enemies or knocking out the last few ballistamen, but Edelgard's ending the map whether you want to or not. Incidentally, I attempted to bait her and her squad using a forest tile in my run, and she responded with a 43 damage gambit with 80 hit on Felix, killing him outright. Quote Sniper's good, but outside Shamir you get Alert Stance+ at least as fast as mastering Sniper in my experience (consider that in order to just qualify for Sniper, you'll need a B+). This is...a little outrageous to hear about your experience. Let me show you the numbers. Climbing from D Bows to B+ Bows takes 860 skill points (960 if you want to make a unit with E bows into a sniper, not a huge difference), and if you're lucky enough to have nabbed the goddess icon from chapter 3, that unit can potentially certify sooner if they hit 16 luck (Ignatz has an average 17 luck at level 20 if he spends no levels in archer, but it's a fairly big iff for most other units). Ignoring what it took to get to B flying for a moment (we really shouldn't), Climbing from B Flying to A+ flying takes 1080 skill points. So let's assume our roster has a newly certified Sniper Ashe at the start of chapter 10, and a Petra that just attained B rank flying at the same time. Snipers, because of how much mastering the class matters for them compared to others at the level 20 range, are among the best candidates for a knowledge gem. But if you have none to spare, it will take 75 rounds of combat. The 1080 points in flying takes 216 rounds of combat without a knowledge gem on a unit with proficiency in Flying (with a knowledge gem, I think we're looking at 135 rounds? The knowledge gem would only double the +3, not the added +2 from Saint Statues, so compare that to the 38 of Sniper). It CAN be sped up via instruction sessions and group tasks, BUT if you intend to use this unit as a dodge tank BEFORE A+, you run into a big problem. Dismounted fliers don't gain a single point of flying exp. Only class and weapon exp. You've got to make them an adjutant. In which case they are contributing the absolute bare minimum to your team on those maps. Quote Well, what do you consider the hard content pre-skip? I'd personally say it's chapters 1, 3 (if you don't memorize or look up the enemy locations), and 5 (mostly the pass reinforcements). All of which are so early that most "build" options are of little help. I'd say the hardest maps of pre-skip are chapter 1, 2, 5, whichever couple of paralogues you decide to tackle first because you haven't yet mastered any intermediate classes, and the gap in player/enemy levels is still especially severe in chapter 7. Generally however, the Felix, Ingrid, Manuela, and Sothis paralogues can still prove very challenging when you come back a couple chapters later. And personally I find 4 and 8 pretty tough. Going down the list: Chapter 1 I have a consistent, RNG-proof strategy that can only fail at the first three enemies (if they crit you, in which case, reset, no big deal), but I found out recently that strategy does not work on Blue Lions (Manuela is in the wrong spot), so I think it still warrants mention considering not everybody knows my strat and there's no divine pulse. Chapter 2 is self explanatory. The first waves of two thieves at a time are some of the hardest turns you'll ever have to take in the game. Chapter 4 certainly doesn't require you to beat the Death Knight, but if you can, it allows you a far easier time dealing with these enemy placements and the mage reinforcements at the start. Seriously those three guys are deadly since they probably won't split up, and you're already backed up on the east or west side with no retreat direction. Mages make up about half the enemies of chapter 4, and they should have enough AS to double your entire roster. Here's hoping you've got some pure waters from monastery exploration because those are expensive. Plus dark mages with seal strength, ugh. The physical enemies are as non-threatening as chapter 3, but this time they have gambits and will use them if you make use of the cover tiles. Chapter 5 has some nasty enemy placements, and by that point you should really have only earned a single extra divine pulse to get through a long map where a lot of little things can go wrong. Chapter 8: I dunno dude, it's a mad scramble to save all the greenies and loot those inaccessible chests, spreading out your entire army. The villager ambush spawns are right in the middle of the map. And the one-two punch of the Death Knight and Solon with their associated crews is pretty tricky. And you have to knock them out before Jeralt arrives or he'll likely cause you a game over. Lots of potential for mistakes that you can't overwrite by divine pulsing to the last turn since there are so many moving parts from the get go. The paralogues bring their own challenges to the table. Yes I am aware you can warp-stride skip two fliers over to the boss of Felix's map. But those fliers had better be tough, and had better land that Assembly to pull him off the fortress tile, otherwise he's packing 91 total avoid. If it took you more than a single try to beat the map this way thanks to the RNG, then you should agree it's certainly not "easy". I've done this map in chapter 10 without warp skipping or fliers, and it's absolutely dreadful, took days of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneRecon400 Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: -Experiences- OK I just got to ask, how exactly would you describe your play style? More specifically, Are you Instructing the same units every week? How many class masteries do you plan to get on them? Because in my experience, B Authority is gotten by chapter 7-8 on most units and advanced class ranks are pretty easy to hit. Of course, I also use everything in the monastery to my advantage even if it costs irl time. How would you say your playstyle differs? Also a small note: Adjutants bonuses do get applied on Enemy Phase. Edited September 4, 2022 by LoneRecon400 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haarhaarhaar Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Reliable enemy phase dodge tanking (to me defined as getting all enemy physical hit rates no higher than displayed 25), I definitely don't see that happening any earlier than chapter 9, because you don't even have Sword Avo +20 for that final push. One could master War Monk/Cleric early. It would require fairly significant investment - I managed it during either Ch. 9 or 10 (can't remember which now) with Byleth by using a Knowledge Gem + doing Paralogues, but I imagine low-manning strats or more overt favouritism could get a unit to that point earlier. This gives you Brawl Avoid +20 - obviously not every unit wants/likes this kind of dodge tank build, but it is effective. Even with a conservative version of @Dark Holy Elf's numbers above, your avoid gets to more than good enough for Maddening enemies at this point in the game. I'm not sure if it'll hit 25 or lower displayed hit for every enemy, but I agree with @SnowFire that you can do plenty with dodge tanking without getting that low. 17 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: But chapter 16 is the fifth last month of the game (fourth last on SS, third last on CF). Was thinking in terms of chapters (VW finishes on Ch. 24), but yeah fair point that a third is probably too charitable after Ch. 16. I'd still maintain that's good enough - Enbarr and Fort Merceus are both made significantly easier by having a dodge tank, even if there are multiple ways to cheese those maps. But I can accept that your threshold for too late is different to mine. 15 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: But otherwise, most things that might be considered part of your build (not to mention most things being discussed in this thread) don't exist then, so that's not a particular point against dodgetanking. Agreed. When I talk about effective builds, I'm generally not expecting anything below Advanced Tier, which isn't relevant to me given my playstyle until Chapter 9 (excluding leaving Catherine/Shamir in their classes, which you've touched on as well). You can do things before this point that are effective for a while, but I think you have to hit at least Advanced Tier to get a build that remains effective for the rest of the game. 2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: I'd say the hardest maps of pre-skip are chapter 1, 2, 5, whichever couple of paralogues you decide to tackle first because you haven't yet mastered any intermediate classes, and the gap in player/enemy levels is still especially severe in chapter 7. Generally however, the Felix, Ingrid, Manuela, and Sothis paralogues can still prove very challenging when you come back a couple chapters later. And personally I find 4 and 8 pretty tough. Going down the list: Chapter 1 I have a consistent, RNG-proof strategy that can only fail at the first three enemies (if they crit you, in which case, reset, no big deal), but I found out recently that strategy does not work on Blue Lions (Manuela is in the wrong spot), so I think it still warrants mention considering not everybody knows my strat and there's no divine pulse. Chapter 2 is self explanatory. The first waves of two thieves at a time are some of the hardest turns you'll ever have to take in the game. Chapter 4 certainly doesn't require you to beat the Death Knight, but if you can, it allows you a far easier time dealing with these enemy placements and the mage reinforcements at the start. Seriously those three guys are deadly since they probably won't split up, and you're already backed up on the east or west side with no retreat direction. Mages make up about half the enemies of chapter 4, and they should have enough AS to double your entire roster. Here's hoping you've got some pure waters from monastery exploration because those are expensive. Plus dark mages with seal strength, ugh. The physical enemies are as non-threatening as chapter 3, but this time they have gambits and will use them if you make use of the cover tiles. Chapter 5 has some nasty enemy placements, and by that point you should really have only earned a single extra divine pulse to get through a long map where a lot of little things can go wrong. Chapter 8: I dunno dude, it's a mad scramble to save all the greenies and loot those inaccessible chests, spreading out your entire army. The villager ambush spawns are right in the middle of the map. And the one-two punch of the Death Knight and Solon with their associated crews is pretty tricky. And you have to knock them out before Jeralt arrives or he'll likely cause you a game over. Lots of potential for mistakes that you can't overwrite by divine pulsing to the last turn since there are so many moving parts from the get go. The paralogues bring their own challenges to the table. Yes I am aware you can warp-stride skip two fliers over to the boss of Felix's map. But those fliers had better be tough, and had better land that Assembly to pull him off the fortress tile, otherwise he's packing 91 total avoid. If it took you more than a single try to beat the map this way thanks to the RNG, then you should agree it's certainly not "easy". I've done this map in chapter 10 without warp skipping or fliers, and it's absolutely dreadful, took days of practice. I like this list, but does this mean that outside of Catherine/Shamir and Impregnable Wall, very little is overpowered in your view, because none of it is gettable in time for these early tough maps? 17 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Availability matters, is my point. Okay, I'm gonna end up talking for a while here. Much of the cross-talk in this thread stems from differing conceptions of what it means to be overpowered, and what might disqualify a build from being overpowered. I haven't bothered to lay out how I understand being overpowered before now, and I should have done that earlier. Here is a non-exhaustive list of criteria (there might be others I've forgotten to include) - if a unit meets one or multiple of these, I consider it overpowered: 1. An overpowered unit will drastically decrease my need to strategise for map(s). 2. An overpowered unit will drastically decrease the time (real time and/or number of turns) taken to complete a map(s). 3. An overpowered unit will be able to complete objectives (ones that I or the game set) that I would otherwise dedicate several units and/or significant other resources to. 4. An overpowered unit will drastically decrease the likelihood of failing to meet objectives (ones that I or the game set). As you can see, this is a relatively permissive, outcome-focused view of what counts as overpowered, and I haven't put parameters on certain key terms in the above (like "drastically" for example - that's the sort of thing that will certainly be understood differently by different people, but is hard to explain without providing detailed examples). At least some of the time, it's also relative to the rest of the units I have available, or the enemies I'm up against. You can see from the above, however, how one or multiple of these conditions could be met by a unit even post-Chapter 13. I even would allow that a unit that makes the endgame chapter alone significantly easier could count as overpowered. However, these conditions are all unanchored from how we play the game. Practical considerations like a build's cost-effectiveness and relative investment required, when it comes online, and its synergy with my preferred play style all affect whether or not I attempt to make or field the build - how viable I think the build is. So, there is a question of being overpowered - how a unit affects the outcomes of my battles, and a separate but relevant question of viability - how feasible a build is to achieve and use to its intended purposes. For example, a Wyvern Lord with QR is probably overpowered, but is not that viable outside of NG+. Mortal Savants are viable builds in Part 2, but I'd be hard-pressed to describe an overpowered Mortal Savant. Some of the responses to the prompt have disagreed with the idea of dodge tanks being overpowered because they aren't powerful enough - perhaps these responses use different/stricter/fewer criteria to mine, for example @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate's response. Other responses disagree with the idea of dodge tanks being overpowered on grounds that they are not viable enough - for example, they require more than deemed acceptable amounts of investment from the player, as per @Whisky's response. As I understand your response, it's a mixture of both of these replies - they do not provide a significant enough power boost at the time they arrive because the chapters they arrive in are mostly doable/easy without them. In other words, they are not so viable that they are over-powered. I think viability is a relevant concern, but for me it impacts the degree to which a build is overpowered, rather than whether a build is overpowered to begin with. Taking my example from earlier, a unit that only makes the endgame chapter cheese-able is overpowered, although not that viable. Compared to a unit that makes all Part 2 cheese-able, it is less overpowered - but in my view, it is still overpowered. So yes, viability (and I count availability as part of that question) does matter, but it matters to us in different ways. My earlier point about overpowered units arriving at Chapter 16 spoke to something slightly different than my above points. With that, I was trying to say that an overpowered unit viable from Chapter 16 (depending on route) was able to unbalance the game. I don't have a problem with units being overpowered (by my definition above). But if they are overpowered and particularly viable, then they diminish the challenge of the game beyond what I would like. This stands independently from what they are able or unable to do for me in other maps which I find challenging. Edited September 4, 2022 by haarhaarhaar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, lenticular said: Second: I have no idea why you think that I use dodge tanks so much that I am sick of them. I've reread everything I said in this thread, and can't see anything that would cause that misunderstanding. In actuality, I don't use dodge tanks very much because I don't enjoy using them. Right in the original post, I said: "I find this to be an incredibly boring way to play, so I typically limit my use of dodge tanks". So you did reread that part of the OP? That's exactly what I was referring to, in that quote. Incredibly boring, so you actively try not to use them. Assuming none of that is a lie, I don't see how you disagree with saying that you're sick of using them. Quote Third: Why do you need more than one person to answer your question? I didn't answer because there didn't seem any point in repeating what had already been said but in slightly different words. Because I was asking about peoples' experiences, to which there is no single, objective answer. If people are trivializing the game several chapters before the time skip for instance, then maybe it's worth calling dodge tanks "too good" and agreeing with the OP. If not, to me it's "just another option". That's been my position on dodge tanks for years. One of a half dozen or so competitively good build choices. Comes online later and at greater investment than others, but is certainly not a "gimmick" once you understand its strengths and weaknesses. I especially like it as a build path for fliers, since a flier's effectiveness is dependent on many more stats than other classes, and sometimes your Petra ends up in a state where she's barely hitting anything and can't ORKO with a brave lance. So I got her Defiant Avoid, alert stance+, cut her health down by spamming devil sword and relics, and that was my first dedicated dodge tank on maddening. Quote First: The little "pronouns" part of our profiles exists for a reason. Please use it. I apologize for misgendering, as it was not intentional. 3 hours ago, SnowFire said: Ah, here's the issue. I think you're being too harsh here. Yeah, full end-game dodgetanking allows some truly disrespectful plays, like throwing a flyer to lure a screenful of enemies on a wild goose chase, is pretty fun. (I think I sent Ingrid to one half of the Fort Merceus map on AM for her to distract the enemies over there, while the entire rest of the team went the other half.) But dodgetanking "lite" is perfectly acceptable as well. Maybe your Chapter 9 Pegasus Knight only has regular Alert Stance, and you missed the Evasion Ring, and there's no Forest nearby, so she only knocks enemies to 40-55 Hit. Fine. That's still great, though; throw in some supports and Swordbreaker and she can still bait smaller numbers of enemies forward safely, as long as she isn't flat OHKO'd. If there was some hack of the game that prevented enemy non-gambit hit rates from dropping below 40, dodgetanks would still be handy for efficient baiting that often doesn't cost a heal / battalion endurance, as long as they were sturdy enough to take the occasional hits that sneak through. What I'm getting from this is "Dodgetanking lite" is essentially "using terrain" and acknowledging that some classes just occasionally dodge a 50 here and there when equipped with Jeralt's Mercs and you ought to roll the dice around that for expediency in clearing maps. Sure. Go for it. Taking unnecessary hits also gives your mages a source of exp. But I'm not about to throw somebody into a mob of incoming 50s, where only two will kill me and force me to replay stuff via divine pulse. I'll sooner slow down my advance or just put on Impregnable Wall so it's not RNG dependent. Also, show me your start of chapter 9 flier that's packing both alert stance and swordbreaker. I'm doubtful that's possible on a max investment Ingrid. 1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said: OK I just got to ask, how exactly would you describe your play style? More specifically, Are you Instructing the same units every week? How many class masteries do you plan to get on them? Because in my experience, B Authority is gotten by chapter 7-8 on most units and advanced class ranks are pretty easy to hit. Of course, I also use everything in the monastery to my advantage even if it costs irl time. How would you say your playstyle differs? I also make full use of the monastery on Maddening. I prioritize increasing prof rank in the early chapters so that each successive Explore has even more to offer. I also recruit everybody, because it's easy and their paralogues are worth it. Then sometime around chapter 5 when saint statue bonuses exist, you can do more than one Battle, Making that choice much more lucrative. Battle quests appear around this time too, including the one that unlocks the bonus merchants. But in general I'm still not doing much Battle until paralogues are unlocked. Those maps have great exp, a ton of money, and rare items. I'm not instructing the same units every week, I place priority on units about to hit notable benchmarks like a good combat art, class certification, or new letter rank in Authority. It generally results in all units getting about the same amount of attention across the entire run as my in-house units have long ago met important skill goals and can get the rest naturally as the run progresses. If I had to guess what makes your playstyle different than mine, one likely answer is DLC. I don't own it. I vaguely understand what's in there, but don't have hard details on the mechanics. Another easy guess is rusted weapons. I don't use those. Priests with renewal? Doing that to them for 99 turns a map feels especially cheesy. Sure, I'll throw spend hours a run fishing, because it feels like a mechanic that was intentionally balanced for the game. Quote Also a small note: Adjutants bonuses do get applied on Enemy Phase. Wow. That's a strange bug. Okay then, it works on both phases, unlike linked attacks. 1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said: I like this list, but does this mean that outside of Catherine/Shamir and Impregnable Wall, very little is overpowered in your view, because none of it is gettable in time for these early tough maps? I don't understand the logic. Those maps are hard because you don't have the builds you have in endgame, or class masteries. You have to rely on the very basics, D rank combat arts, position well for each wave of enemies so your 4 Mov units can all contribute meaningfully, set up three linked attack bonuses for reasonable gambit hit rate, rally, and count enemy stats before moving so you don't burn a vital divine pulse. Post-Time skips maps have a different flow to them, as you now have tools to subvert what used to be difficult before, and have 10 divine pulses to cover the mistakes you made while autopiloting. Vital options like Tempest Lance and Curved Shot cease to matter. Maddening enemies may still have an advantage in levels/stats, but they don't particularly scale well in terms of abilities the way your units have. The Swordmasters having Quick Riposte is a bit of a wrinkle, but Assassins having the Poison ability? No, assassins remain threatening because they maintain the Pass of Thieves. Ditto for Snipers that still have Poison Strike - Vantage isn't threatening when they don't have close counter. Edited September 4, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneRecon400 Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: I'm not instructing the same units every week, I place priority on units about to hit notable benchmarks like a good combat art, class certification, or new letter rank in Authority. It generally results in all units getting about the same amount of attention across the entire run as my in-house units have long ago met important skill goals and can get the rest naturally as the run progresses. Using units equally is something I don't do. Typically I focus exclusively on 5-6 units and and leave the rest as is. But that really doesn't explain the huge gap in time. Are you getting units to go through multiple class masteries? Because the amount of battles a unit goes through really makes a difference. Like if you do the cookie cutter Death, Darting, Hit +20 setup, that's 300 exp out of 680 to reach B Authority on a neutral unit. Also, an in-house Ingird could Alert Stance + by Chapter 9 with the DLC Sauna. Willing prove it if you want to see the numbers. Edited September 4, 2022 by LoneRecon400 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 (edited) Edit: Quick correction to last post as I booted up my file to check. Catherine does NOT have B authority as of chapter 14. So only 3 of my 12 units do. She's in the same ~C+ range as the others. 1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said: Using units equally is something I don't do. Typically I focus exclusively on 5-6 units and and leave the rest as is. But that really doesn't explain the huge gap in time. For the entire game? Yeah low manning definitely explains the gap in time. Because: Quote Because the amount of battles a unit goes through really makes a difference. The amount of enemies per map stays the same regardless of your own roster size. If you're using half the units I do, then they're getting twice as much out of a single map. Definitely the sort of caveat you ought to mention when talking about playstyles. I presume that normal players end up with the full roster of 10-12 by the time skip considering the game won't penalize you in any way for using all slots, and the ones you can't deploy can still power up as an adjutant. The only low manning I do is at the start of the game, when I select which units from my house are worth sticking with and feed them the bulk of the action. I can pretty confidently say I've never gone out of my way for three level 10 class mastery skills in Maddening. If I ever had three, I certainly wasn't equipping all three, since the third was probably Unarmed Combat on my current run. It's usually just death/fiendish blow, then reclass into something marginally better to BE in, like Priest, Brawler/Thief, Cavalier, Pegasus, archer. And if the class mastery of that second class is worth getting, I'll be sure to find time for it. Edited September 5, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowFire Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: What I'm getting from this is "Dodgetanking lite" is essentially "using terrain" and acknowledging that some classes just occasionally dodge a 50 here and there when equipped with Jeralt's Mercs and you ought to roll the dice around that for expediency in clearing maps. Sure. Go for it. Taking unnecessary hits also gives your mages a source of exp. But I'm not about to throw somebody into a mob of incoming 50s, where only two will kill me and force me to replay stuff via divine pulse. I'll sooner slow down my advance or just put on Impregnable Wall so it's not RNG dependent. Maddening enemies are powerful, but they're not so amazingly powerful as to be dishing out OHKOs constantly, at least early. Earlygame "lite" dodgetanks can be used similar to concrete dodgetanks on early maps where precisely because you expect them to take some hits, they do need to survive the hit that gets through, so maybe are only baiting one or two enemies at a time if you want to save DPs. They just have the nice bonus of not costing your mage's turn sometimes. They also tend to be very good at attracting archer interest, since the AI likes to fire from max range and suffer some major Hit penalties, and luring Archers forward is also great. (While a Dedue-style tank will be eating a Poison Strike afterward on maddening if he baits an archer or two.) It's only in the later parts of the game where you have enemy Grapplers that pack OHKO level damage, and then you can be shoving them down to 25 Hit. I will say that what you describe is a fairer criticism if you decide to try to build dodgetank Flayn or Bernadetta (as a flyer), or Dorothea (with WM Avo+20 or Sword Avo +20). Their durability is sufficiently suspect that they WILL get OHKO'd frequently, and so they only properly function if you truly can drive hit rates into the dirt (or to bait enemy mages). But on the flip side, something like Dodgetank Dimitri / Edelgard / Ferdinand / Byleth get the best of both worlds, because even if they get unlucky and take a hit, they're still ready to take more. 3 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Also, show me your start of chapter 9 flier that's packing both alert stance and swordbreaker. I'm doubtful that's possible on a max investment Ingrid. Alert Stance+ & Swordbreaker is probably unreasonable without major favoritism like grinding + Sauna in C9, but vanilla Alert Stance? Sure. That's a B in Lances and a B in Flying. When I played Azure Moon I hardly trained Ingrid in anything else so she just did those every week. Eventually, she will want to train a little Swords to qualify for Falcon Knight, but you don't need to do that right away unless you plan on making her a Swordmaster/Assassin in Advanced Tier. Anyway, this can be slowed down a tad with Axe training (a puny D+ for Brigand & Death Blow access, or maybe C+ or so if you want to go Wyvern Rider in Advanced Tier) or with Heavy Armor training (solely to get Weight -3 for her spindly arms to heft Luin / Silver Lances better), but neither should be that big of a detour. Don't think you need to go crazy fighting renewal Bishops for grinding to do this, but even if you do miss the thresholds, oh well, do Tales of the Red Canyon to collect your Knowledge Gem, and wait a tad on the tougher paralogues to do them in C10/C11 rather than C9. Out-of-house Ingrid or characters without flying proficiency will obviously be slower at this, but Ingrid is the easiest example because she has both + Lance & Flying talent naturally. Anyway, philosophically, even if playstyle quirks prevent even "lite" dodgetanks from coming online until C12, that's just in time for the most infamous map in the game where dodgetanking is by far one of the best strategies for surviving, so it'd still be pretty noteworthy. Someone having trouble with Silver Snow's version of Reunion at Dawn could make their life a lot easier if they have a Sword Avo +20 Dancer and a Flyer Byleth in their initial team for it. Edited September 5, 2022 by SnowFire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haarhaarhaar Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 10 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: I don't understand the logic. You previously said: Quote Most of the hardest maps on Maddening are pre-time skip, so it's a pretty vital part of the equation I haven't seen explored in all these writeups on Avoid stacking. If dodge tanking is only notable near the end of the game, at the same point or later than other finished builds, then can it really be said to be "too good" instead of just "an option"? In other words, a condition for you to consider a build overpowered is apparently that it comes online in time for early difficult maps. You then said: 13 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: I'd say the hardest maps of pre-skip are chapter 1, 2, 5, whichever couple of paralogues you decide to tackle first because you haven't yet mastered any intermediate classes, and the gap in player/enemy levels is still especially severe in chapter 7. Generally however, the Felix, Ingrid, Manuela, and Sothis paralogues can still prove very challenging when you come back a couple chapters later. And personally I find 4 and 8 pretty tough. But apart from Catherine, Shamir, and Impregnable Wall, none of the builds you talk about as overpowered in your previous comments are available in time for these things. Maybe if you play like @LoneRecon400 they are - but I certainly don't, and you don't seem to either. I asked whether this meant that you consider these tools, and only these, to be overpowered. 10 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Those maps are hard because you don't have the builds you have in endgame, or class masteries. You have to rely on the very basics, D rank combat arts, position well for each wave of enemies so your 4 Mov units can all contribute meaningfully, set up three linked attack bonuses for reasonable gambit hit rate, rally, and count enemy stats before moving so you don't burn a vital divine pulse. Post-Time skips maps have a different flow to them, as you now have tools to subvert what used to be difficult before, and have 10 divine pulses to cover the mistakes you made while autopiloting. Vital options like Tempest Lance and Curved Shot cease to matter. Maddening enemies may still have an advantage in levels/stats, but they don't particularly scale well in terms of abilities the way your units have. The Swordmasters having Quick Riposte is a bit of a wrinkle, but Assassins having the Poison ability? No, assassins remain threatening because they maintain the Pass of Thieves. Ditto for Snipers that still have Poison Strike - Vantage isn't threatening when they don't have close counter. I'm not entirely sure how this relates to what I said. I wasn't trying to find out which maps you found difficult or in what ways you found them difficult, but whether these early difficult maps disqualify (in your opinion) just about everything from being overpowered, because almost no solid build arrives in time for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 7 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said: You previously said: In other words, a condition for you to consider a build overpowered is apparently that it comes online in time for early difficult maps. No, all I was saying (in that quote and in every single post since the start of this thread) is that if a build comes online at the same time or later as equally powerful builds and tools, I don't consider it "overpowered". I consider it "An Option". One of six or seven that are equally relevant for the late game. To compare it to the earliest of early game maps, if the best tools are: Tempest Lance, Smash, Curved Shot, Gambits, the Mini Bow, and magic spells, and somebody asks "is Tempest Lance too good?", I'd have the same response. 15 hours ago, SnowFire said: Anyway, philosophically, even if playstyle quirks prevent even "lite" dodgetanks from coming online until C12, that's just in time for the most infamous map in the game where dodgetanking is by far one of the best strategies for surviving, so it'd still be pretty noteworthy. Yeah "playstyle quirks" like, I don't have the DLC and "I field more than five units past the early game" seem to be the big sticking points here. I also don't play on NG+. Just...throwing that out there in case that's an "ah hah" moment for anybody. For chapter 13 I've done well enough with standard def tanking - seeing as 100% of the enemies are physical attackers. Fortress Knight Byleth with a steel shield and a batallion that grants 7 protection only gets hurt by the snipers and assassins. Just sit there with a forged Bolt Axe, chug concoctions to counteract the poison strikes and hopefully the snipers will die off in a reasonable amount of time. If you've got the Aegis Shield, then that frees up your batallion for something that grants other bonuses. Like the Gloucester Knights with 6 mag attack and 15 hit, or Gautier Knights to pad out your avoid so the snipers are hitting you less than half the time. Plus a dodge tank is still at serious risk of gambits. Once 3 enemies are within range of you the minimum gambit hit rate is 35. That's been kind of bugging me too, you guys are aware enemies have linked attacks as well, right? They may not have supports, but 5% is still 5% on the gambit that'll kill you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haarhaarhaar Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: No, all I was saying (in that quote and in every single post since the start of this thread) is that if a build comes online at the same time or later as equally powerful builds and tools, I don't consider it "overpowered". I consider it "An Option". One of six or seven that are equally relevant for the late game. To compare it to the earliest of early game maps, if the best tools are: Tempest Lance, Smash, Curved Shot, Gambits, the Mini Bow, and magic spells, and somebody asks "is Tempest Lance too good?", I'd have the same response. So is anything in this game overpowered in your opinion? Answering that will help me understand your position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samz707 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 (edited) I don't think so? (at least pre-TS, Petra/Felix post-TS do get a bit broken it feels towards the end of the game.) I think it mostly depends on the map and AI Behavior, if there's plenty of Thickets for instance to take advantage of and the AI rushes you, a single dodge-y character can basically solo the map, but in more baren maps (Such as interior maps with little cover.) or ones where the AI waits for you to come to them then they generally won't reach super reliable dodge rates. I've only done CF and just before final TS-map BL so I can't fully comment but right now they seem mostly in a good spot of "They can make good use of avoid terrain, but you still need other units to actually push through." Not to mention the fact mages ignore terrain bonuses does mean it can mess up relying on it, or even simply powerful bosses. (Such as Catherine in the CF version of the Petra Paralogue, you'll have a hard time dodging her.) Granted I don't play with units "to their full potential" (Since I instruct everyone and frequently swap out members of my army in battles) so maybe if you're meta-ing hard and focus on only using a small team they get alot better but for a meta-avoiding Hard player, they're a bit too good but you want other units to pick up the slack when needed, at least that's the impression I get. Edited September 5, 2022 by Samz707 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said: So is anything in this game overpowered in your opinion? Answering that will help me understand your position. Can't think of anything. If everything is powerful, then none of it is. And the only things that aren't powerful are the stuff you've long since steered clear of, like Mortal Savant, Great Knight, and Holy Knight. I personally think the Advanced Classes matching the Master Classes ultimately makes for a more well rounded game, rather than a game where every unit wants to be the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowFire Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: Yeah "playstyle quirks" like, I don't have the DLC and "I field more than five units past the early game" seem to be the big sticking points here. I also don't play on NG+. Just...throwing that out there in case that's an "ah hah" moment for anybody. That Azure Moon playthrough was a normal New Game and fielded 12.5 units (the Lions + Dorothea, Marianne, and Seteth; the .5 is spending a little time training Caspar so he wouldn't be dead weight in his Paralogue), didn't use the free DLC stat-boosters, and didn't buy an early Evasion Ring from the Abyss Renown shop. It had regular Alert Stance by C9 and Alert Stance+ by C12 (although as stated, this was with some KG favoritism for the AS+, so maybe throw that one out, but regular Alert Stance is still very good.). It did collect the Renown bonus for completing the DLC which has the subtle effect of speeding up Saint Statue upgrades which will increase skill point gain, but this is not a drastic change since the statues don't open immediately, and you get enough Renown normally that a no-DLC file will "catch up" eventually, especially if it prioritizes the statue with the skills it wants to emphasize. Anyway, this is a silly quibble. Fine, let's say the faster Saint Statue upgrades sped up the rate of setting up dodgetanking lite by a full three chapters (unlikely). Okay, dodgetanking is only exceptionally good on C12-endgame rather than C9-endgame, and become near-unstoppable from C15-end rather than C12-end. It's still very powerful in a rather low-skill way compared to daring player phase aggro + Dance/Rescue/Warp shenanigans, which are awesome but can also backfire horribly if you mess it up. If you hacked in Athos to join earlier in FE7, whether he joined in C20 or C22 or C24, people would probably agree that he'd be a little too powerful and break the balance of the game. It wouldn't be a huge deal - you could use Athos judiciously, or bench him and use all the strats real-life FE7 players use - but if abused to its fullest, it would be some powerful gameplay skip, with only stuff like young Zephiel getting wrecked by a crit being a concern. 5 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: For chapter 13 I've done well enough with standard def tanking ... This is a nice story, and it's cool you won this way! However, hopefully you believe others that C13 can *also* be won very solidly with a dodgetank Byleth / Dimitri / etc., even despite your worries about enemy gambits? It's not like there's a conspiracy where we all agree to pretend to have gotten past C13 with dodgetank stratz when actually our playthroughs bricked there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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