Book VII Discussion Thread

[Seafarer]

11 hours ago, Aedan7479 said:

So, what was the point of the weird chapter numbering? The Story certainly isn't coherent if you play it in numerical order.

The point is the chapters are numbered in external time, while we got them in the order of the characters' personal experience.

[vikingsfan92]

17 hours ago, Lemmy said:

 

I wanted to like this book ...

I think there was potential, our new friend being revealed to eventually wipe us out with sadistic glee, other versions of her echoing words we didn't say yet

Another Dues ex Machina later, and now we end with her different murder victims giving gentle smiles ...

 

Seither is my most disliked OC character yet, too pure, and then also force us to make a kid with her, while other OCs are trying to hook us up

 

I think the kid thing is more rightfully Northr's fault then anything because it more of she was directed to do it than she wanted to. Don't get me wrong she is attracted to the summoner but even while presenting it to us it's clear she was asked to do so. So it's more of Nothr taking advantage of her personality situation imo.

Also on a more general note I think a lot of the things that are in question now could lead somewhere in tempest trial stories or at least I hope so. I could see some genuine carry over to the next book too with Nerpuz at the very least sticking around for a bit as I think they would made more note of her leaving if she did leave given all she did.

[Diovani Bressan]

They grouped each batch of chapters in different times.

Chapter 13 takes place in the future of the fallen timeline, where the Order of Heroes fails to defeat Gullveig and everyones dies. That future, however, is a vision granted to the Summoner by Seiðr. Also, soon after the events of the chapter and after bringing destruction to the world, Gullveig creates Heiðr to carry the Serpent Curse, and Gullveig sends herself back in time to be reborn as Kvasir.

Chapter 5 to 8 takes place in the present, where Seiðr comes to the Order of Heroes to inform them about the evil coming and to aid them, and takes them to Vanaheimr to try to find a solution to this problem. Njörðr grants Seiðr the power of light, and with the Rite of Light she is able to look into all the realms in order to localize Gullveig before the Serpent Curse takes action, but they fail to localize her because they were looking at the wrong place. Gullveig appear in Vanaheimr in order to stop them and to send them to the past.

Chapter 2 to 4 takes place in the Past, where Summoner meets Kvasir in order to create a bond between them. Once reunited with the Order, they all learn that Kvasir is the one that will become Gullveig in the future, and learn that Kvasir, Seiðr and Gullveing are the same person.

Chapter 9 to 12 is them going back to the present, where Heiðr is sacrificed for the serpent curse to activate, Njörðr is killed by Gullveig and Seiðr finds a way to be free from  the curse with the help of Nerþuz. However, the curse still exist somewhere, and Gullveig brings Kvasir to the present in order to help her killing Seiðr so the Serpent Curse is not stopped.

Finally, Chapter 1 has the new future, where the Serpent Curse is finally over and Seiðr can live her life without having the destiny of bringing destruction to the world.

Chapter 13 can be represented as the "ending that never was", while Chapter 1 can also be represented as the "new beginning".

Edited November 18, 2023 by Diovani Bressan

[DefyingFates]

On 11/18/2023 at 1:39 PM, Diovani Bressan said:

They grouped each batch of chapters in different times.

This was such a cool detail, I really liked it.

But it just hit me: what happened to Veronica? Gullveig letting her go made me think she'd come back later but... nope. I always thought the insistence on shoehorning Veronica into the plots was annoying, but it's weird that the first time her getting involved made sense (since Askr and Embla are formally allies as of Book VI) she... didn't.

I guess she could be saved for a Book 7 TT, but... probably not. But speaking of, following Seidr with two voices in her head could be pretty funny. I wonder if her other forms will stay in her head going forward or will canonically get separate bodies or something (not counting alts and summons, obviously).

[Etrurian emperor]

4 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

But it just hit me: what happened to Veronica? Gullveig letting her go made me think she'd come back later but... nope. I always thought the insistence on shoehorning Veronica into the plots was annoying, but it's weird that the first time her getting involved made sense (since Askr and Embla are formally allies as of Book VI) she... didn't.

Yeah that certainly felt random. I expected her to appear at the end and help out. That said since the Askr trio were time traveling it could be argued she didn't have much of a way to help out.

[Diovani Bressan]

7 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

But it just hit me: what happened to Veronica? Gullveig letting her go made me think she'd come back later but... nope. I always thought the insistence on shoehorning Veronica into the plots was annoying, but it's weird that the first time her getting involved made sense (since Askr and Embla are formally allies as of Book VI) she... didn't.

My take on that was Gullveig decidindo to attack Embla first, so make them weak, forcing them to not take action against her. By defeating Embla early, Veronica would not have the strength to help Askr.

But then the question still remaining: why Gullveig didnt kill Veronica there? Maybe she felt that Seidr was already in action with her plan of supporting Askr, so she had to move fast and couldn't waste more of her time dealing with Embla? She probably felt that her present self was going away from the Serpent Curse Destiny, which could cause future self, the Golden Seer, to not exist anymore? It's hard to say.

[Lemmy]

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

My take on that was Gullveig decidindo to attack Embla first, so make them weak, forcing them to not take action against her. By defeating Embla early, Veronica would not have the strength to help Askr.

But then the question still remaining: why Gullveig didnt kill Veronica there? Maybe she felt that Seidr was already in action with her plan of supporting Askr, so she had to move fast and couldn't waste more of her time dealing with Embla? She probably felt that her present self was going away from the Serpent Curse Destiny, which could cause future self, the Golden Seer, to not exist anymore? It's hard to say.

Perhaps she possessed Veronica the same way she possessed the generic NPCs we fought, it's one explanation for the heroes we fought, although with the curse directive, the power isn't exclusive to Veronica

[Othin]

Gullveig's defeat felt very weak to me, but I liked the epilogue.

[Etrurian emperor]

So right now all realms have been used up right? So only Asgard/Ragnarok remain

[Lemmy]

5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

So right now all realms have been used up right? So only Asgard/Ragnarok remain

Nothing happened in Jotenheim, they could get back to it, but all the realms have made some type of appearance or representation.

[Aedan7479]

7 hours ago, Lemmy said:

Nothing happened in Jotenheim, they could get back to it, but all the realms have made some type of appearance or representation.

Outside of Askr and Embla, we've never gone back back to a realm (not counting Tempest Trials). I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, but I also want to get to Alfador already.

[Lemmy]

I hope the things they foreshadowed in Abyssal Light, and maybe even the dual dragons come to pass.

 

Loki’s mysteries and liking Veronica as a character have been the things keeping me invested.

[Mercakete]

Okay. I know I'm super duper late (was dealing with personal stuff), but before I read anyone else's comments, it's time to finally go through this last chapter and give my thoughts as I go.

Okay, so sudden showdown, it seems. And we finally get a look into Seidr's past. And Seidr's already figured that she or Gullveig has to die too. Guess this is like seeing which of two branching futures will come to pass. Hmm. This feels like a personification of branching potential futures all of a sudden. Like...killing Gullveig is actually a merciful thing to do, and like this had to happen. Really puts a dramatic spin on small choices in life.

"You were the first person I ever had...feelings for." Still pushing the romance angle. Also, sounds like they may be trying to garner some last-minute sympathy here. She's asking to be ended so that she doesn't have to kill the player, and so that the world can go on to a hopeful future (as is her true nature as Seidr.) This would be a lot more believable either with narrative to have led more soundly up to this, or without all the empty space in between meeting her and this moment. Not bad in and of itself, but the context ruins it.

"Live on with [player name]." ... I know you mean that romantically. "Time can be cruel... But your time in this world, with the summoner, need not be. Enjoy it." Lots of emphasis on this going on.

Aw. Gullveig smiled when she said goodbye to the player. If not for all the context, that would be sweet.

And Sharena and Anna are remarking on how it's like no time went by at all. No kidding. I would've been annoyed if it had since it wouldn't have made any sense. We traveled a lot through the world's time, not personal time.

"I hope you don't regret stopping Gullveig. I will not." Nice to have objective Alfonse around. "My highest priority is Askr's peace and prosperity." Oooo sounding kinglike, there. Nice to see growth from him.

Yeah, I figured there'd be more. Okay, so in the end, Nerpuz was a plot device that did almost nothing but guide. And Seidr wound up pulling her past and future selves to live within her in the end anyway. Kind of feels like "What was the point?" But at least we have a way to explain summoning Kvasir and Gullveig...?

... Oooookay. I don't like how instead of showing the ending movie in the app, they bring you to YouTube. Also, it was basically just the ending we read, but without words and with more animation. Still, it was pretty cool seeing what was basically the opening movie, except "if empowered Seidr was there to stop Gullveig's attacks and blow bubbles on her."

So, book's done. I wonder what's next.

[Mercakete]

Ooookay, I explained this before, but I'll go ahead and reiterate on what seem to be common confusions:

 

Veronica

She was attacked, but never captured. Gullveig herself said that it wasn't time yet to annihilate her (which would come when the world ended.) That's it. The scene was just to show that Embla's not ignorant of what's going on -- just that they can't help. It preempts the following thought: "Wait. Embla's Askr's ally now. Why aren't they stepping in while this world-ending thing is going on?"

 

Heidr

Gullveig created Hedir (and sent her into the past, but not as far into the past as she would go, herself) just before becoming Kvasir again (and then went further into the past than she sent her daughter.) For now, Kvasir still had her Gullveig memories. It is very likely (but was not shown directly) that she told Njordr about what was to come when she went to introduce herself to him. He was very opposed to others coming into his place of residence, if you'll recall. So, Kvasir enticed him with knowledge and instruction on how to preserve himself ("do this stuff -- look, a false promise since I actually kill you later!") before losing her memories. SO the kid idea was still Kvasir/Seidr/Gullveig's, which she passed on to Njordr to tell her Seidr self later so that the golden serpents could infect her again. Heidr was only necessary for infecting Seidr with the Golden Seer Curse, so she was part of Gullveig's plan, not Njordr's (except by adoption (Njordr going along with Gullveig's plan), since Gullveig was using Njordr as a stabilizing agent to ensure that the plan would go forward, even while she didn't have her memories.)

 

One thing that never really go addressed, though, was where the curse came from in the first place. It only exists in this one time loop. So, was it the serpent which circles the world, except as a sort of a metaphor/reinterpretation? That still doesn't explain how it all started in this story, though. It just "always was, except not since there's a timeine in which it doesn't exist." Also, it has an end, but no beginning. Yeah, that's one perplexing plot element there.

[Seafarer]

On 11/23/2023 at 9:49 AM, Mercakete said:

One thing that never really go addressed, though, was where the curse came from in the first place. It only exists in this one time loop. So, was it the serpent which circles the world, except as a sort of a metaphor/reinterpretation? That still doesn't explain how it all started in this story, though. It just "always was, except not since there's a timeine in which it doesn't exist." Also, it has an end, but no beginning. Yeah, that's one perplexing plot element there.

This is something that I brought up to my friend after Chapter 12, too. I assume, since the curse gets powered up each time it infects Seiðr once she's recovered Njörðr's Ár, that it was originally his plan and the curse was made from his power, but that's obviously speculation. I guess they had to leave something unresolved for the eventual Book 7 TT+ storyline, and since Gullveig is available inside Seiðr's mind, she might be able to fill in some of the gaps.

[Diovani Bressan]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:11 PM, Lemmy said:

Nothing happened in Jotenheim, they could get back to it, but all the realms have made some type of appearance or representation.

To me, that will be the theme for next year's TT Story.

Reginn may be getting ready to reing over Niðavellir, and something may happen that require the help of Jötunheimr.

One idea I had was that since Jötunheimr stayed responsable to keep an eye on Niðavellir, maybe the actual Queen of Jötunheimr (Dagr's mother) decides to not give it back to Reginn and plan to keep Niðavellir as part of her realm. That could make Dagr going against her own mother and helping Reginn on that.

[Mercakete]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:49 PM, Mercakete said:

Ooookay, I explained this before, but I'll go ahead and reiterate on what seem to be common confusions:

 

Veronica

She was attacked, but never captured. Gullveig herself said that it wasn't time yet to annihilate her (which would come when the world ended.) That's it. The scene was just to show that Embla's not ignorant of what's going on -- just that they can't help. It preempts the following thought: "Wait. Embla's Askr's ally now. Why aren't they stepping in while this world-ending thing is going on?"

 

Heidr

Gullveig created Hedir (and sent her into the past, but not as far into the past as she would go, herself) just before becoming Kvasir again (and then went further into the past than she sent her daughter.) For now, Kvasir still had her Gullveig memories. It is very likely (but was not shown directly) that she told Njordr about what was to come when she went to introduce herself to him. He was very opposed to others coming into his place of residence, if you'll recall. So, Kvasir enticed him with knowledge and instruction on how to preserve himself ("do this stuff -- look, a false promise since I actually kill you later!") before losing her memories. SO the kid idea was still Kvasir/Seidr/Gullveig's, which she passed on to Njordr to tell her Seidr self later so that the golden serpents could infect her again. Heidr was only necessary for infecting Seidr with the Golden Seer Curse, so she was part of Gullveig's plan, not Njordr's (except by adoption (Njordr going along with Gullveig's plan), since Gullveig was using Njordr as a stabilizing agent to ensure that the plan would go forward, even while she didn't have her memories.)

 

One thing that never really go addressed, though, was where the curse came from in the first place. It only exists in this one time loop. So, was it the serpent which circles the world, except as a sort of a metaphor/reinterpretation? That still doesn't explain how it all started in this story, though. It just "always was, except not since there's a timeine in which it doesn't exist." Also, it has an end, but no beginning. Yeah, that's one perplexing plot element there.

On 11/23/2023 at 3:29 PM, Seafarer said:

This is something that I brought up to my friend after Chapter 12, too. I assume, since the curse gets powered up each time it infects Seiðr once she's recovered Njörðr's Ár, that it was originally his plan and the curse was made from his power, but that's obviously speculation. I guess they had to leave something unresolved for the eventual Book 7 TT+ storyline, and since Gullveig is available inside Seiðr's mind, she might be able to fill in some of the gaps.

Gullveig was the one doing the planning and manipulated Njordr, I'm pretty sure. All the events surrounding it points to this. I used to think he was the mastermind, but IS decided to go the other way, but that leaves a LOT of plot holes (mainly, "where did x come from" with x being various things. The curse is one of them, but another is Gullveig's choice to make this plan to begin with. These two alone are HUGE to the plot, and yet have no explanation for them except for where they came from after the first (and onward) loop. Not where it came from before the first loop.), let alone things that are just implied instead of overtly stated. (There's a difference between a plot hole and something that isn't directly shown to the consumer, but has evidence to imply an answer.)

[Lemmy]

Like the Muspell tempest trial, this could have been another prophecy from Alfathr, and Njorthr played his part to end humanity. With Heithr being apart of these cycles and spawning from us, it’s fair to assume we were always part of the cycle, and we do return Njorthr the Ar, which more or less is the curse, I assume…

 

I’m still curious whether Heithr is born infected, and I still don’t think they adequately showed the three cycling through each other, Seithr knowing much less than the other 2 still annoys me.

[Mercakete]

1 hour ago, Lemmy said:

I’m still curious whether Heithr is born infected,

It shows Gullveig cursing Heidr just before sending her into the past and just after her creation.

Quote

I still don’t think they adequately showed the three cycling through each other, Seithr knowing much less than the other 2 still annoys me.

This is completely accurate.

[Seafarer]

On 11/26/2023 at 6:45 PM, Mercakete said:

Gullveig was the one doing the planning and manipulated Njordr, I'm pretty sure. All the events surrounding it points to this. I used to think he was the mastermind, but IS decided to go the other way, but that leaves a LOT of plot holes (mainly, "where did x come from" with x being various things. The curse is one of them, but another is Gullveig's choice to make this plan to begin with. These two alone are HUGE to the plot, and yet have no explanation for them except for where they came from after the first (and onward) loop. Not where it came from before the first loop.), let alone things that are just implied instead of overtly stated. (There's a difference between a plot hole and something that isn't directly shown to the consumer, but has evidence to imply an answer.)

She manipulated the Njörðr that we see, but it makes no sense for her to have manipulated the original Njörðr, because she didn't have knowledge of how the timeline would play out back then. My theory is that the original timeline involved Njörðr hatching his plan and infecting the original Kvasir with the curse, then, for subsequent timelines, she shows up to tell him that previous-him executed the plan that he's starting to conceive for himself, so he goes along with what she says because she obviously led to his desire for the end of the mortal world in previous timelines.

So, by the timeline that we see, Gullveig's the one with the plan, but only because she knows how what was originally Njörðr's plan is meant to go and has the power to make sure it goes that way. Looks like a classic Dragon Ascendant thing, right down to Njörðr outliving his usefulness.

[Lemmy]

But to murky the waters further, Kvasir survives or perhaps is moved to the near the end of the timeline, and says she never got around to performing the rite.

[Mercakete]

6 hours ago, Seafarer said:

She manipulated the Njörðr that we see, but it makes no sense for her to have manipulated the original Njörðr, because she didn't have knowledge of how the timeline would play out back then. My theory is that the original timeline involved Njörðr hatching his plan and infecting the original Kvasir with the curse, then, for subsequent timelines, she shows up to tell him that previous-him executed the plan that he's starting to conceive for himself, so he goes along with what she says because she obviously led to his desire for the end of the mortal world in previous timelines.

So, by the timeline that we see, Gullveig's the one with the plan, but only because she knows how what was originally Njörðr's plan is meant to go and has the power to make sure it goes that way. Looks like a classic Dragon Ascendant thing, right down to Njörðr outliving his usefulness.

This theory holds water, except that it makes more sense if it's Seidr that Njordr infects (at about the same time as, in other timelines, Seidr gets infected by killing Heidr) rather than Kvasir. It would also explain the timing Gullveig chooses for her own version of Njordr's plan.

Man, I wish there was more ACTUALLY EXPLAINED in this book. I don't mind some things being nebulous/implied, but good golly -- this is, like, at least 2/3 of the overall story that the consumers need to fill in for themselves.

[Mercakete]

I mentioned this on the Kvasir+Gullveig banner thread, but Kvasir's quotes answer some questions. She says that she came from a flaw in time, and that she was not born or created, but simple is. So...Njordr really had nothing to do with all this, except as Gullveig's pawn, it looks like. Imagine the timeline as, well, a line. But somewhere in the timeline the line loops, like the upside-down bits on a roller coaster track. That was this book. Time kept looping there until our timeline (the "real" time) got there, and changed it. So, time accidentally made Kvasir/Seidr/Gullveig and we deleted the error (ish, since Seidr still exists and brought the other two into herself.) There was no beginning to the golden snakes (time just sort of made it happen on accident), just an end (thanks to us.) I'm beginning to think IS just doesn't review their canon to look for ways forward. (Taking inspiration from your own work also helps with filling in plot holes, tying off loose ends, and generally makes a whole and consistent work.) It's just kind  of an idea factory with little to no review. That's how it feels, anyway, with how things have been handled recently. A lot of theories, after all, have more consistency than the published work! (Like, it feels like they began going in a direction, and kept being all "nah, let's just do this other thing.") As an example, I've already pointed out how Book 4 could have included even small things to show Alfonse's development towards kinghood while processing his father's death. Looking into Sharena's thoughts on the whole thing would have been a great lead-in into Book 4, too. For example, I could see her grieving her dad, and reflecting on her childhood, falling asleep, and then the whole dream theme happening from that. But no, she's just empty-headed friendly girl who is never not cheerful or goes through actual feelings of pain unless it's to temporarily be "the heart." Actually, there are too many things I could go into, so I won't (across many books.) But a big thing is that FEH doesn't properly develop its characters, ESPECIALLY its male ones. (Like, they had it set up PERFECTLY for Njordr to have more personal reasons for going along with Gullveig's plan -- the threat against his kind that Ragnarok presents, the loss of Freyr and Freyja (though she's just in a coma) -- but no. It was just "I want to live forever and now I go crazy and then am killed." He could have been a mastermind character, or at least retain some class. It was set up perfectly for that. *sigh*

Anyway, another thing Kvasir gives us is what might be a peek at the next book. One of her castle quotes is this: "Asgardr? I feel I hve heard the name before, but...it is now just out of reach." So, we might be seeing Asgard in the next book. I'm taking this with a healthy dose of salt, though. Eitri, after all, was all "the next book's going to be really weird" and then it wasn't...but the one after it kind of was?

[Lemmy]

Calling Gullveig a chess master seems like calling a cake a chess master, a cake can’t create itself or manipulate a baker to make it. Like a baker, Njorthr knew what he was making, the ingredients, put them together, he got what he wanted, just underestimated the scope and how much it would hate him.

 

[Seafarer]

14 hours ago, Mercakete said:

I mentioned this on the Kvasir+Gullveig banner thread, but Kvasir's quotes answer some questions. She says that she came from a flaw in time, and that she was not born or created, but simple is. So...Njordr really had nothing to do with all this, except as Gullveig's pawn, it looks like.

I think you're over-extrapolating to suit conclusions you've already come to. Kvasir wasn't born or made, but the curse itself is an entity separate from its host, and it is not part of her while she's in the Kvasir phase. So it's still entirely possible (though obviously not certain) that Njörðr had a hand in the curse's origin (and Gullveig's quotes don't shed any time on the matter...).