End game reflections are story discussion. Spoilers.

[lenticular]

For me, their biggest misstep in terms of characters was having the first three characters be Vander, Clanne, and Framme. I mean, they have to have known that "avatar worshipping" characters were going to be divisive at best, right? And then the first three characters are all variations on the theme of lives devoted to the service of the avatar. And then their supports with each other and with the avatar are largely doubling down on this character trait rather than trying to add depth to them. It made a very bad first impression for me, and it took a while until I really started to warm to some of the other characters. I think that it's always going to be a mistake to make too many early characters be too similar, regardless of what they're like. If you start off with a group of different personalities, it's much more likely that more people are going to have at least one of them they can latch onto.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, lenticular said:

For me, their biggest misstep in terms of characters was having the first three characters be Vander, Clanne, and Framme. I mean, they have to have known that "avatar worshipping" characters were going to be divisive at best, right? And then the first three characters are all variations on the theme of lives devoted to the service of the avatar. And then their supports with each other and with the avatar are largely doubling down on this character trait rather than trying to add depth to them. It made a very bad first impression for me, and it took a while until I really started to warm to some of the other characters. I think that it's always going to be a mistake to make too many early characters be too similar, regardless of what they're like. If you start off with a group of different personalities, it's much more likely that more people are going to have at least one of them they can latch onto.

Hmm. Now I'm envisioning a Takumi style character who resented their duty as watchmen for Sleeping Beauty, thinking it pointless work of only ceremonial merit, unfairly directing their resentment towards Alear and trying to justify their bad attitude even though with Alear awake their ceremonial duty is now considered one of the most important jobs on the continent.

[Acacia Sgt]

Why would they even have the job to begin with, then? Or would they have gotten disillusioned with it? Since the stewards are chosen, so likely vetted first.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Why would they even have the job to begin with, then? Or would they have gotten disillusioned with it? Since the stewards are chosen, so likely vetted first.

It needn't actually be a job of any prestige. They could have been landed it by being born a second son or something while the actual noble heirs get to have positions close to Lumeria herself.

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Jotari said:

It needn't actually be a job of any prestige. They could have been landed it by being born a second son or something while the actual noble heirs get to have positions close to Lumeria herself.

Of course, that assumes Lythos has a nobility class.

For its worth, the manga seems to be doing its own thing. In there, Clanne and Framme were already tending to the Somniel as young as eight years old... but it took until their twelfth birthday to officially become Stewards. So it seems there is a trial period, or several years even, in whether they are worthy or not to have the job. It's not just granted outright.

 

[Seazas]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It needn't actually be a job of any prestige. They could have been landed it by being born a second son or something while the actual noble heirs get to have positions close to Lumeria herself.

Nah. Lumera isn't the type of character to entrust resentful people to watch over her child, that doesn't make sense. It's not a coincidence that the ones who consistently watch over Alear are the ones so devoted that they'd spend their lives waiting and cleaning up the Somniel + Alear themselves.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Nah. Lumera isn't the type of character to entrust resentful people to watch over her child, that doesn't make sense. It's not a coincidence that the ones who consistently watch over Alear are the ones so devoted that they'd spend their lives waiting and cleaning up the Somniel + Alear themselves.

Well if we're changing things she wouldn't necessarily need to have the same personality. She is, imo, a bit boring as almost literally Mikoto 2.1

[Seazas]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well if we're changing things she wouldn't necessarily need to have the same personality. She is, imo, a bit boring as almost literally Mikoto 2.1

Lumera didn't need to be anything special for how little presence she gets. She works for how she is, better than being a Rhea who despite having an interesting character is so underused that it becomes a negative. Frankly, if you have to rewrite so much to make a more hateful servant work: chances are it's not worth it. Especially for such a silly idea, hating Alear for committing the crime of... being asleep and needing to be taken care of! The horror! Is kinda stupid, on a similar tier of Hana hating Corrin for getting kidnapped as a child lmao.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Seazas

[Acacia Sgt]

I would've taken her being Eleanora 2.0

At least unlike Eleanora, Lumera could remain in contact with Alear thanks to the Somniel, and would allow to give her actual presence and flesh out of her character.

3 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Frankly, if you have to rewrite so much to make a more hateful servant work: chances are it's not worth it. Especially for such a silly idea, hating Alear for committing the crime of... being asleep and needing to be taken care of! The horror! Is kinda stupid, on a similar tier of Hana hating Corrin for getting kidnapped as a child lmao.

I second this.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I would've taken her being Eleanora 2.0

At least unlike Eleanora, Lumera could remain in contact with Alear thanks to the Somniel, and would allow to give her actual presence and flesh out of her character.

I second this.

Keep her alive long enough to rescue everyone from the Cathedral seems the basic, if sensible move. As the way the scene is directed, the escape does come across as a bit of a "the magic of cutting away to offscren".

[Sentinel07]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

For me, their biggest misstep in terms of characters was having the first three characters be Vander, Clanne, and Framme. I mean, they have to have known that "avatar worshipping" characters were going to be divisive at best, right? And then the first three characters are all variations on the theme of lives devoted to the service of the avatar. And then their supports with each other and with the avatar are largely doubling down on this character trait rather than trying to add depth to them. It made a very bad first impression for me, and it took a while until I really started to warm to some of the other characters. I think that it's always going to be a mistake to make too many early characters be too similar, regardless of what they're like. If you start off with a group of different personalities, it's much more likely that more people are going to have at least one of them they can latch onto.

Agreed.

I think the Alear and Framme support genuinely frustrated me with how it felt like a waste of time in the end. They basically end the support the same way they began it, with Framme being a nuisance (but Alear apparently doesn't mind that now for some stupid reason).

[Aedan7479]

I just finished the story, and I have..... complicated feelings about it. After the first three chapters finished setting things up, the next 13 chapters are just a macguffin quest, and then after that, they attempt to give depth to the villians, to.... varying results. I was expecting Mauvier to just be another Camus, so I'm kinda glad he joined us, Marni fell kinda flat due to her sympathetic side coming out of left field, and I guess the same applies to Zephia and Griss, but.... I found their death scene kinda effective? When Griss said "nothing can hurt me anymore" I thought that was effective, and I get that Zephia's sense of Family is twisted but genuine, it just needed some deeper writing before hand. I think they should've played up the cruelty of Sombron using his children like he did because I really like what we see of Past Alear, how empty s/he is; make Sombron a villian we can hate, rather than whatever they tried to do at the last minute.

I do think Alear might be the best Avatar we've gotten though, s/he had some actual depth, with his/her upbringing.

[MamieDavis]

On 3/11/2023 at 4:25 AM, Aedan7479 said:

I just finished the story, and I have..... complicated feelings about it. After the first three chapters finished setting things up, the next 13 chapters are just a macguffin quest, and then after that, they attempt to give depth to the villians, to.... varying results. I was expecting Mauvier to just be another Camus, so I'm kinda glad he joined us, Marni fell kinda flat due to her sympathetic side coming out of left field, and I guess the same applies to Zephia and Griss, but.... I found their death scene kinda effective? When Griss said "nothing can hurt me anymore" I thought that was effective, and I get that Zephia's sense of Family is twisted but genuine, it just needed some deeper writing before hand. I think they should've played up the cruelty of Sombron using his children like he did because I really like what we see of Past Alear, how empty s/he is; make Sombron a villian we can hate, rather than whatever they tried to do at the last minute.

I do think Alear might be the best Avatar we've gotten though, s/he had some actual depth, with his/her upbringing.

Congrats, I like it.

[DefyingFates]

On top of the general vibe putting people off, what specific scenes do people here (and elsewhere) seem to have the most issues with? So far the ones I've noticed are:

• Lumera dying too quickly.
• The unseen escape from the cathedral in Chapter 10.
• Alear dying twice in Chapter 22.
• The villains' backstories coming too late/ suddenly.

Are there any others? Because it's curious to me how easily those could have been fixed:

Spoiler

Lumera living just long enough to save the cast in Chapter 10 is one you guys have already mentioned - and her dying in the cathedral would give Sombron easy access to her body to revive later (her later arrival could have even had a brief "are you real" fake-out too, now that I think about it).

As for Alear's deaths... the thing is, I really like both scenes: the first is a great gut punch moment from Veyle with Sombron mocking her for it and the I just love Alear crying in the second. Maybe if instead of being dead the second time, Alear is just dying? That way you keep the drama and even the conversation with Marth (it could just be happening in their head) without going far enough to irritate people.

And finally, the villains: I think this could have been fixed by simply extending the scenes we already have of them to show more of their personalities. As Aedan said, as sudden as it was I genuinely liked Griss and Zephia's final scene, and Griss getting weirdly defensive about her when fighting Alear in that chapter is already cool foreshadowing about how he feels about her (not to mention how they're always together in cutscenes anyway) so just... more of that! Maybe throw in Zephia saying she won't abandon Marni how her mother did too, to build that part up ahead of time as well.

Sombron's past would probably be a spoiler to reveal too soon, but some early mentions that he's looking for something specific and not just out to take over the world for its own sake would have been enough, I think (much like at the end of Chapter 24). Funnily enough, I think the villain stuff is the most likely to get done by the elephant in the room (the manga adaptation) if it gets that far without getting canceled or ending with a "now go buy FE Engage" cliffhanger.

So... yeah. Are there any other moments that stuck out to you? I think I mentioned this earlier, but I quite liked Engage's story even if I agree that the above scenes could have been handled better, so this kinda of "what-if" discussion intrigues me. I'd love to hear your takes on the matter!

[Metal Flash]

Now that I have finished Engage, I can share my thoughts.

The last five chapters were where I found myself liking the story the least.

Spoiler

Felt nothing for Marnie when she died, even after the rushed backstory dump.

Veyle got a Doctor Strange 2 style "believe in yourself" speech and suddenly she can overcome her evil side through sheer willpower.

Alear`s first death I could`ve forgiven it since Veyle got to use her Corrupted summoning ability in a neat way. Then Alear died again, only to be revived as an Emblem seconds later. 

Zephia randomly helping the party by giving them the magic maguffin they needed made zero sense. Her and Griss` death scene did nothing to change how little I cared about either of them.

I feel this chapter could`ve been a flashback, rather than us literally traveling to the past, leaving us with several questions. 

Because she died before I could form any real attachment to her, Corrupted Lumera and her drawn out death scene did nothing for me

Sombron`s motivation is incredibly random. "I wanted to find this unknown Emblem" what? Also, why make it seem like the Emblems are gonna disappear, only to have Alear re-summon the Emblems right after?

 

[DefyingFates]

1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

Spoiler

Also, why make it seem like the Emblems are gonna disappear, only to have Alear re-summon the Emblems right after?

 

Spoiler

Power of Friendship/ Alear's Will.

Also, pure fanservice with all the past Lords getting to stand side-by-side.

 

[Jotari]

It's endgame story discussion, guys, I don't  think we really need the spoiler tags.

On subject I'm pretty much in 1:1 agreement with Defying Fates. The only thing I'll add is something Metal Flesh mentions briefly which is Marnie. She just doesn't work for me as a character as a basic concept. Even if she was executed really well (minor intended pun), the character is so fundamentally nonsensical to me that I would beed some kind of justification for her existence among the hounds that would be a major change to her or someone else's character (something like actually making her Zephia's kid). Or just aging her up into an adult.

[Acacia Sgt]

6 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Are there any others? Because it's curious to me how easily those could have been fixed:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lumera living just long enough to save the cast in Chapter 10 is one you guys have already mentioned - and her dying in the cathedral would give Sombron easy access to her body to revive later (her later arrival could have even had a brief "are you real" fake-out too, now that I think about it).

As for Alear's deaths... the thing is, I really like both scenes: the first is a great gut punch moment from Veyle with Sombron mocking her for it and the I just love Alear crying in the second. Maybe if instead of being dead the second time, Alear is just dying? That way you keep the drama and even the conversation with Marth (it could just be happening in their head) without going far enough to irritate people.

And finally, the villains: I think this could have been fixed by simply extending the scenes we already have of them to show more of their personalities. As Aedan said, as sudden as it was I genuinely liked Griss and Zephia's final scene, and Griss getting weirdly defensive about her when fighting Alear in that chapter is already cool foreshadowing about how he feels about her (not to mention how they're always together in cutscenes anyway) so just... more of that! Maybe throw in Zephia saying she won't abandon Marni how her mother did too, to build that part up ahead of time as well.

Sombron's past would probably be a spoiler to reveal too soon, but some early mentions that he's looking for something specific and not just out to take over the world for its own sake would have been enough, I think (much like at the end of Chapter 24). Funnily enough, I think the villain stuff is the most likely to get done by the elephant in the room (the manga adaptation) if it gets that far without getting canceled or ending with a "now go buy FE Engage" cliffhanger.

I'd say, while the Lumera thing is one way, I think another way to have done it is if they've used Micaiah to mass Rewarp out. Like, villains in FE love to abuse free warping, let the player party do it for once. Well, that kind of thing isn't new, since the likes of Gotoh and Athos have mass warped the player party in previous FE's, but one more time would've been neat. Granted, it requires not losing Emblem Micaiah to begin with, but perhaps with some reshuffling... or combining it with the Lumera thing, if she was the one using Micaiah to Warp them out.

Regarding Alear's twice dying, it would've been neat if we could've played with Corrupted!Alear for longer than a single chapter. The second death can still be unchanged from how it's in-game. It wouldn't even be hard to pull off, considering Alear and non-brainwashed!Veyle meet up throughout the game a few times already.

6 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

So... yeah. Are there any other moments that stuck out to you? I think I mentioned this earlier, but I quite liked Engage's story even if I agree that the above scenes could have been handled better, so this kinda of "what-if" discussion intrigues me. I'd love to hear your takes on the matter!

I'd say, the Emblem Theft was also done quite a bit choppy.

Out of nowhere Veyle took the Time Crystal... somehow. Then she used it to steal the Rings... again, somehow. Certainly not using the crystal the way we use it, that's for sure. Like the escape sequence we don't see, the game basically goes: "script says X must happen, so it happens."

[Seazas]

3 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Now that I have finished Engage, I can share my thoughts.

The last five chapters were where I found myself liking the story the least.

  Hide contents

Felt nothing for Marnie when she died, even after the rushed backstory dump.

Veyle got a Doctor Strange 2 style "believe in yourself" speech and suddenly she can overcome her evil side through sheer willpower.

Alear`s first death I could`ve forgiven it since Veyle got to use her Corrupted summoning ability in a neat way. Then Alear died again, only to be revived as an Emblem seconds later. 

Zephia randomly helping the party by giving them the magic maguffin they needed made zero sense. Her and Griss` death scene did nothing to change how little I cared about either of them.

I feel this chapter could`ve been a flashback, rather than us literally traveling to the past, leaving us with several questions. 

Because she died before I could form any real attachment to her, Corrupted Lumera and her drawn out death scene did nothing for me

Sombron`s motivation is incredibly random. "I wanted to find this unknown Emblem" what? Also, why make it seem like the Emblems are gonna disappear, only to have Alear re-summon the Emblems right after?

 

Zephia helping us made sense with her character and what she admits to Griss. She did it out of pure pettiness toward Sombron leaving them behind to die defending the shard. You're not supposed to feel sympathy for them, Citrinne puts it best in Yunaka's B Support: "there's tragedy in your tale but you earned no sympathy".

Sombron's motivation also isn't really random. It's pure cheese and connects to how emblem centric the plot is. Moreso when he doesn't become evil because of the emblem, he was also just a dark dragon and a genocide survivor that created a bitter person who wants revenge.

[Metal Flash]

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Zephia helping us made sense with her character and what she admits to Griss. She did it out of pure pettiness toward Sombron leaving them behind to die defending the shard. You're not supposed to feel sympathy for them, Citrinne puts it best in Yunaka's B Support: "there's tragedy in your tale but you earned no sympathy".

Sombron's motivation also isn't really random. It's pure cheese and connects to how emblem centric the plot is. Moreso when he doesn't become evil because of the emblem, he was also just a dark dragon and a genocide survivor that created a bitter person who wants revenge.

Guess I just missed that

Fair point

Guess that just shows how uninvested I was in Engage`s plot towards the end.

[DefyingFates]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

it would've been neat if we could've played with Corrupted!Alear for longer than a single chapter.

Oh, this would have been cool too (I was looking forward to more Corrupted!Alear at the time myself), though it'd probably require locking off all Bond Conversations until their re-rebirth.

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The second death can still be unchanged from how it's in-game. It wouldn't even be hard to pull off, considering Alear and non-brainwashed!Veyle meet up throughout the game a few times already.

So which death would you move, and to where?

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's endgame story discussion, guys, I don't  think we really need the spoiler tags.

Ah, I used tags mostly because I had written up a large text wall (but also because spoiler talk gets me a bit antsy in general, I suppose).

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

She just doesn't work for me as a character as a basic concept. Even if she was executed really well (minor intended pun), the character is so fundamentally nonsensical to me that I would beed some kind of justification for her existence among the hounds that would be a major change to her or someone else's character (something like actually making her Zephia's kid). Or just aging her up into an adult.

First: ouch to that pun.

Second, I never thought aboutt aging her up but that would make more sense (and she would fit in better with the others). As it stands, I think it'd make sense if she was especially sadistic or talented, so one day while checking out the orphanage/ school Marni was in Zephia pointed at her and said "I think that one would be useful, she works for me now". I think that's in character for her, both as a sadist herself and as someone with a warped understanding of what being a mother is.

Naturally, head canons shouldn't be used to fix holes in canon material, but I think that's simple enough that if we get an interview like the one that revealed Claude's real name and this was listed as Marni's origin as a Hound I wouldn't be surprised.

Also, I'm glad my post resonated with you! Did you also agree with my suggested fixes, or just the raised points?

Edited March 29, 2023 by DefyingFates

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Oh, this would have been cool too (I was looking forward to more Corrupted!Alear at the time myself), though it'd probably require locking off all Bond Conversations until their re-rebirth.

Hm? Why?

7 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

So which death would you move, and to where?

The first one.

Hmm, well, without changing too much, perhaps after Chapter 15? Like, after Veyle runs off, the party does chase after her. They then find Veyle accosted by more Corrupted that were still around and is too distressed from earlier to fight back, or perhaps she's just overwhelmed. So Alear jumps in and... takes a fatal blow while shielding her. And right there and then Veyle brings them back.

Whether she still decides to run away or not it's incidental, though I'd have it that she stays. It's not like it would change Chapter 17 much anyway, since Zephia can just mind control her back to their side anyway.

Granted, this way, it'd have to be made that Alear can still restore the Emblems... but perhaps this can be the thing that triggers the second death. Just a more gradual process that culminate when they have to do it come Lythos Castle.

7 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Second, I never thought aboutt aging her up but that would make more sense (and she would fit in better with the others). As it stands, I think it'd make sense if she was especially sadistic or talented, so one day while checking out the orphanage/ school Marni was in Zephia pointed at her and said "I think that one would be useful, she works for me now". I think that's in character for her, both as a sadist herself and as someone with a warped understanding of what being a mother is.

Naturally, head canons shouldn't be used to fix holes in canon material, but I think that's simple enough that if we get an interview like the one that revealed Claude's real name and this was listed as Marni's origin as a Hound I wouldn't be surprised.

Also, I'm glad my post resonated with you! Did you also agree with my suggested fixes, or just the raised points?

On the topic of Marni, I feel she should've been playable. Or at least, her death shouldn't have been so...

I mean, this falls back to FE's habit of making the Rewind mechanic exist in-story. Nothing and no one was stopping Alear from using the Time Crystal to prevent Marni's death. And unlike Jeralt's case, neither is there a "it's fate" thing stopping a second attempt or anything. The story only remembers the Crystal exists for the Emblem Theft, and then never again.

At least alive she could get more fleshed out through supports and stuff, like Mauvier.

[DefyingFates]

15 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, this falls back to FE's habit of making the Rewind mechanic exist in-story.

Yeah, I hope they just let the rewinding just be a mechanic going forward instead of being an in-universe thing. Granted, Chapter 11 was great for it and it was handled much better than the Turnwheel, but still... I'd rather they make that distinction ASAP instead of ending up with some "babyrealm"-tier justification in FE18 or 19.

[Seazas]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Hm? Why?

The first one.

Hmm, well, without changing too much, perhaps after Chapter 15? Like, after Veyle runs off, the party does chase after her. They then find Veyle accosted by more Corrupted that were still around and is too distressed from earlier to fight back, or perhaps she's just overwhelmed. So Alear jumps in and... takes a fatal blow while shielding her. And right there and then Veyle brings them back.

Whether she still decides to run away or not it's incidental, though I'd have it that she stays. It's not like it would change Chapter 17 much anyway, since Zephia can just mind control her back to their side anyway.

Granted, this way, it'd have to be made that Alear can still restore the Emblems... but perhaps this can be the thing that triggers the second death. Just a more gradual process that culminate when they have to do it come Lythos Castle.

On the topic of Marni, I feel she should've been playable. Or at least, her death shouldn't have been so...

I mean, this falls back to FE's habit of making the Rewind mechanic exist in-story. Nothing and no one was stopping Alear from using the Time Crystal to prevent Marni's death. And unlike Jeralt's case, neither is there a "it's fate" thing stopping a second attempt or anything. The story only remembers the Crystal exists for the Emblem Theft, and then never again.

At least alive she could get more fleshed out through supports and stuff, like Mauvier.

Having Alear job to a random corrupted would be a really bad plot point. It's what made Lilith's sacrifice in Fates fundamentally fail.

[BloodRonin]

I wonder if the emblem of foundations is really just Alear or a version of them? With time travel and the well, assuming it let's you travel worlds, I wouldn't put it past Alear to try and go back and save Sombrom. Sort of like what would happen if he had a different upbringing or something. Sombron looks at his children before he dies and says he can see the emblem of foundations. 

Or it could be some made up character. The game was fun and overall story was okay at best. I wouldn't be surprised if we never get a cannon answer