End game reflections are story discussion. Spoilers.

[Etrurian emperor]

Sometimes its really not in Fire Emblem's interest to stick so rigidly to Fire Emblem traditions. 

Take queen Lumera for instance. Her relation with Alear is actually kinda sweet, but its doomed to fall flat because Lumera MUST appeal to the dead FE parent trope. The idea of royals on opposite sides adopting each other and being very gentle with each other is a reasonable interesting dynamic, but that can't really happen when the mom drops dead after about five minutes.

This of course was previously shown by Jeralt too. The first time we saw him everyone already knew he was going to be the typical dead FE dad. And because the devs already knew that we already knew he was going to die they probably didn't feel the need to actually do anything with the poor sod. 

Even if both really had to die for the story to work they could have lasted longer, and done more to give their deaths more impact. But because its Fire Emblem tradition for the parents to die early they simply had to die really soon.

[Acacia Sgt]

That's so true.

Personally, I feel that, if Lumera had to die because of "tradition", it should've been during Chapter 10. Have her burst into the scene in her dragon form, with the intention of allowing Alear and friends the chance to escape, even if it costs her her life. That would also have the bonus of plugging the plot hole that is: "How did they even managed to escape the cathedral to begin with." Then before that she could show up at the Somniel where you could trigger stuff with her, to allow the two to interact and let us see it, so when the time came for her to die, it'd carry more impact.

Perhaps even more daring, they could've pulled a Birthright!Kaze or SilverSnow!Rhea with the whole thing as well.

[TheHBK]

On 2/12/2023 at 11:36 AM, CompteSecours said:

Also sometimes the game tells you "Emblems are very powerful items, its bearer is very strong !" and near the end "Meh, no wish anymore, Emblems are useless now".

One of the most baffling aspects of the plot is how disregarded the rings are compared to how powerful they’re supposed to be (and how useful you can witness them to be in gameplay).

They just keep changing owners like no one ever watches over them.

Like, I get that they wanted a desperate situation of losing the rings and all. Even if the justification is the lamest shit ever, it can somehow be advocated to be the villains being super powerful yadda yadda.

But then the villains themselves lose their rings left and right lmao

Like how am I supposed to take this story seriously when such important trinkets are disregarded by every side so that they can be moved around freely for gameplay purposes?

I mean even with the stupid justification for losing them, getting them back doesn’t feel good when it should have! It’s just « yeah, lame-ass explanation from the writers so that you can get one ring back 😑 »

Edited February 13, 2023 by TheHBK

[Ⱥstra]

It was pretty obvious to me from the trailers alone that the story was going to not be good, so all I really wanted from engage was good gameplay and music. I got both of those things and am satisfied. In regards to discussing your point on the bad story though, one major complaint I have is one that may not come up so often. I do not like how I never got the sense of warfare or leading an army in this game, which to me is a staple of fire emblem narratives. It never really feels like big battles are happening and most cutscenes show only Alear and maybe a few lords in huge rooms, facing the enemy, which feels so off and bizarre, when you theoretically have an entire army with you. The fact that the enemies retreat over and over and over and over, makes it feel even less like an actual serious conflict with stakes as well.

[Sidereal Wraith]

I honestly believe that the hype will have to die down a bit before discussions of the story will be taken more seriously. What I’m more interested in now is the legacy that Engage will have, which I believe will be the same as Conquest. I.E. good gameplay but a bad story. It saddens me that people seem to just accept the fact that Engage’s story isn’t good and just tout that all you need is good gameplay in an RPG. Especially coming right after 3H, which seemed to at least tell an interesting story in a mostly successful manner. The fact that Engage’s story is so ineptly told truly boggles my mind. It’s sad that some people will just accept mediocrity, even if said mediocrity looks and sounds good.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Sidereal Wraith

[Shrimpica]

29 minutes ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

It’s sad that some people will just accept mediocrity, even if said mediocrity looks and sounds good.

You talking about 3H gameplay here old man

Quote

all you need is good gameplay in an RPG.

Yeah it's not a VN.

Maybe i would care more about FE stories if there was one that didn't heavily fumble and drag the story down to B-tier at best every time.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Shrimpy -Limited Edition-

[Sidereal Wraith]

9 hours ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said:

You talking about 3H gameplay here old man

Shrimp-kun you’re projecting.

9 hours ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said:

Yeah it's not a VN.

Maybe i would care more about FE stories if there was one that didn't heavily fumble and drag the story down to B-tier at best every time.

Then why not go play other RPGs then Shrimp-kun? Go play FF Tactics or Orge Battle. As for me I’m was foredoomed to play Engage because I cannot escape my destiny.

[Shrimpica]

2 hours ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

Go play FF Tactics or Orge Battle.

I don't care about their gameplay, and not matter what masterful storrytelling they might have (big doubt on that anyway), a gameplay i can't enjoy is not worth playing the game for

2 hours ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

As for me I’m was foredoomed to play Engage because I cannot escape my destiny.

you did this to yourself

[Sidereal Wraith]

37 minutes ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said:

I don't care about their gameplay, and not matter what masterful storrytelling they might have (big doubt on that anyway), a gameplay i can't enjoy is not worth playing the game for.

Then play something else Shrimp. There are dozens if not hundreds of other games/series in the TRPG genre. Find one that appeals to you and play it.

37 minutes ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said:

You did this to yourself.

Ah, to be young and full of life once more. Mayhap I did, mayhap didn’t. At this point it’s hard for to say.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Sidereal Wraith

[Shrimpica]

3 minutes ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

Then play something else Shrimp. There are dozens if not hundreds of other games/series in the TRPG genre. Find one that appeals to you and play it.

I already do

It's called Fire Emblem

[scigeek101]

While for something like Fire Emblem, gameplay is more or less the most important factor, having a strong plot to carry the gameplay is also important I think. Lots of people are probably going to drop this one before the endgame just because the story just isn't that engaging. Granted, this is a problem that Fire Emblem often has, but I question that, if we're going to do this level of story but not have it be very good, maybe making a far simpler story with less text is better? Or even one that is basic but allows for more player choice and multiple routes? 

 

The very basic outline for the story here works alright, but it might be better if there's about 80% less of it. And if they let you make more meaningful story choices. Even if that means something like first going to Elusia by way of Solm rather than Brodia or something like that. 

[AwakeningFates]

19 hours ago, scigeek101 said:

While for something like Fire Emblem, gameplay is more or less the most important factor, having a strong plot to carry the gameplay is also important I think. Lots of people are probably going to drop this one before the endgame just because the story just isn't that engaging. Granted, this is a problem that Fire Emblem often has, but I question that, if we're going to do this level of story but not have it be very good, maybe making a far simpler story with less text is better? Or even one that is basic but allows for more player choice and multiple routes? 

 

The very basic outline for the story here works alright, but it might be better if there's about 80% less of it. And if they let you make more meaningful story choices. Even if that means something like first going to Elusia by way of Solm rather than Brodia or something like that. 

Yeah, I’m up to about chapter 23 and I just don’t find it engaging enough to pick up. Instead, I’ve gone and bought Shadows of Valentia from the 3DS eshop because I’ve never played it and I’m already enjoying it a lot more despite only having just switched to Celica’s route for the first time. I also dropped Fates despite liking Conquest’s gameplay. But to each their own.

[joevar]

Their whole approach to storytelling need to change. Its not just the bad plot, but bad pacing also ruin the game story no matter how good the idea is on paper like 3H

Engage plot if we were to use it on a standard JRPG could very well work. But due to how they structure the game, where you keep hopping between critical battle into critical battle just ruin any good sense the story might have

Everytime you just done a big battle, next time you enter cutscenes, its going to be 100% big battle again. And by that, the villain will be defeated yet again. within a short time. (Worse if you play without grind). This is why even the most memorable villain in FE still a joke compared to other gaming genre villain.

Even 3house just give you the illusion of good villain because said villains also happen to be protagonist in their own route

Try eliminating other route, then try rate the villain from one specific route only. All other lord thats not get chosen become a joke too.

Edited February 16, 2023 by joevar

[Sidereal Wraith]

Basically most of my thoughts on Engage’s story and characters neatly summarized by someone:

The biggest problem for me was that Engage’s plot also has a whole mess of plot holes that are never explained, the biggest ones being:

1. How did the party escape from the cathedral in Chapter 10 when they’d lost all of their Emblem Rings and the Draconic Time Crystal, while being trapped in a building with the Four Hounds behind them and Veyle plus a revived Sombron in front of them plus a host of Corrupted which are seen in Chapter 11?

2. How does Alear still have a physical body after being revived as an Emblem seeing that the other Emblems are ghosts/spirits which can only interact with the world around them in a limited capacity?

3. If the Mage Dragons are capable of using time travel via empowering magical crystals (the Draconic Time Crystal and Zephia’s Crystal in Chapter 25) why didn’t they use this power to win the ancient war? Or to go back in time to change the past? Can the past be changed in major ways? What are the rules in this world which govern time travel?

Edited February 18, 2023 by Sidereal Wraith

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

2. How does Alear still have a physical body after being revived as an Emblem seeing that the other Emblems are ghosts/spirits which can only interact with the world around them in a limited capacity?

Because their body was right there when The Miracle happened. Their spirit simply went back there instead of the ring, while the actual Emblem power went to the ring, but both are connected now.

Despite what they look to be, I'm pretty sure it's stated at one point that the Emblems are not the actual spirits of the characters. Think like Awakening's Einherjar Cards, except Emblems are more complex. Alear is the exception, which is why The Miracle is called, well, a miracle.

7 minutes ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

3. If the Mage Dragons are capable of using time travel via empowering magical crystals (the Draconic Time Crystal and Zephia’s Crystal in Chapter 25) why didn’t they use this power to win the ancient war? Or to go back in time to change the past? Can the past be changed? What are the rules in this world which govern time travel?

As Zephia states, making the crystal actually capable of group time travel robbed her of her life force. She was already dying, hence why she was fine with making it. Otherwise it's likely Mage Dragons don't think on going that far.

Now true, the whole time travel aspect and how it works is certainly not that well fleshed out. Neat for the Past Alear fight, but it could've been managed some other way.

[Sidereal Wraith]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Because their body was right there when The Miracle happened. Their spirit simply went back there instead of the ring, while the actual Emblem power went to the ring, but both are connected now.

Despite what they look to be, I'm pretty sure it's stated at one point that the Emblems are not the actual spirits of the characters. Think like Awakening's Einherjar Cards, except Emblems are more complex. Alear is the exception, which is why The Miracle is called, well, a miracle.

I don’t think they ever stated that Alear would get his physical body back. Doesn’t Marth even say something about the Emblems not having the power to revive the dead? When Alear is revived it clearly is in the form similar to the other Emblems. Even if the other Emblems are just copies of the real heroes, they still act like spirits (Soren states that he doesn’t have a corporeal form and can’t eat or drink).

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As Zephia states, making the crystal actually capable of group time travel robbed her of her life force. She was already dying, hence why she was fine with making it. Otherwise it's likely Mage Dragons don't think on going that far.

The Draconic Time Crystal still exists regardless of Zephia’s death, meaning that at the very least the Mage Dragons knew about time travel. Again the game states that Zephia’s Crystal will send the party back, but can a Mage Dragon make a Crystal that can send only one person back without killing them? Does making even a limited Time Crystal (the one the party uses) kill a Mage Dragon? These are problems that giving the party a more powerful Crystal that can send them back a thousand years raises in the narrative. If a Mage Dragon was  dying anyway without hope of being saved, could they still make a time Crystal to serve Sombron’s will?

[Acacia Sgt]

15 minutes ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

I don’t think they ever stated that Alear would get his physical body back. Doesn’t Marth even say something about the Emblems not having the power to revive the dead? When Alear is revived it clearly is in the form similar to the other Emblems. Even if the other Emblems are just copies of the real heroes, they still act like spirits (Soren states that he doesn’t have a corporeal form and can’t eat or drink).

Despite knowing about The Miracle, they had never done it before. So perhaps even they wouldn't know what would happen exactly. Only that the spirit of the deceased would come back to the world of the living. Which still doesn't qualify as reviving them since they'd be a spirit housed in a ring, like they are. Alear's spirit going to their body can be something unexpected even they wouldn't know could happen, and/or related that it already happened once when Veyle brought them back as a Corrupted. So they just went back there by default. Or, if the Emblems could direct the whole thing, they decided to throw Alear a bone and put their spirit back in their body. Since, again, it was right there.

15 minutes ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

The Draconic Time Crystal still exists regardless of Zephia’s death, meaning that at the very least the Mage Dragons knew about time travel. Again the game states that Zephia’s Crystal will send the party back, but can a Mage Dragon make a Crystal that can send only one person back without killing them? Does making even a limited Time Crystal (the one the party uses) kill a Mage Dragon? These are problems that giving the party a more powerful Crystal that can send them back a thousand years raises in the narrative. If a Mage Dragon was  dying anyway without hope of being saved, could they still make a time Crystal to serve Sombron’s will?

You know, now I wonder. Veyle's mother was also a Mage Dragon. Who actually made the first crystal again, she or Zephia?

Edited February 16, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Sidereal Wraith]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Despite knowing about The Miracle, they had never done it before. So perhaps even they wouldn't know what would happen exactly. Only that the spirit of the deceased would come back to the world of the living. Which still doesn't qualify as reviving them since they'd be a spirit housed in a ring, like they are. Alear's spirit going to their body can be something unexpected even they wouldn't know could happen, and/or related that it already happened once when Veyle brought them back as a Corrupted. So they just went back there by default. Or, if the Emblems could direct the whole thing, they decided to throw Alear a bone and put their spirit back in their body. Since, again, it was right there.

The cutscene clearly shows Alear’s body being transformed into an Emblem. Sigurd does say that Alear is unique in that he had a physical body unlike the other Emblems. Leif does say that Alear has a new body, but it’s confusing because it’s stated that Alear has been “reborn” as an Emblem and Marth later says “nobody returns from death” as if stating that the only way they had to save Alear was by turning him into an Emblem like them. At best it’s not explained well, as it would seem that the miracle was to turn Alear into an Emblem as the only way to save them from death. What it means for Alear to be an Emblem and what if any limitations this creates for them is not really explained.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, now I wonder. Veyle's mother was also a Mage Dragon. Who actually made the first crystal again, she or Zephia?

As far as I know it’s never explained in the game, at least not from what I’ve seen.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Sidereal Wraith

[Jotari]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:19 PM, joevar said:

I disagree with this last part complaint. That is actually one of the better part of the story.

If you pay attention before (if you dont , i dont blame you being story like this) lumera condition is exactly like Hyacinth in ch.17

They get resurrected just like hyacinth with their memory intact, but  not their reasoning. They can say something good, but dont know why its good/bad. Because the order from fell dragon who resurrect them will be put above all else in their actions

Rather than zombie, more like puppet on strings.

You can see this evidently from battle dialogue with vander, the twin Framme Cranne, and Alear. Similar if you battle Hyacinth with Ivy and Hortensia.

They are not evil, just will always do what the evil lord told them to. (Fighting alear forces for hyacinth, guarding the crystal for lumera). So making them evil is not necessary, because the point is they are good people made to do evil bidding. Sort of like emblem when they are red

 

I think it would have been a really nice gesture if Corrupet Lumeria died, Alear was sad, and then it was Veyle that used the last of her corrupted making powers to bring her back for just a few moments as herself to say goodby to Alear.

[joevar]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think it would have been a really nice gesture if Corrupet Lumeria died, Alear was sad, and then it was Veyle that used the last of her corrupted making powers to bring her back for just a few moments as herself to say goodby to Alear.

yeah, i admit somehow they made another blunder by making the final goodbye overstay/longer than it supposed to be... again. also if it happen like you suggest, it could further reinforce the idea that Veyle corrupted power has different quality, which is giving the corrupted more sane mind or have more free will

13 hours ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

1. How did the party escape from the cathedral in Chapter 10 when they’d lost all of their Emblem Rings and the Draconic Time Crystal, while being trapped in a building with the Four Hounds behind them and Veyle plus a revived Sombron in front of them plus a host of Corrupted which are seen in Chapter 11?

through warp-rescue shenanigans

13 hours ago, Sidereal Wraith said:

2. How does Alear still have a physical body after being revived as an Emblem seeing that the other Emblems are ghosts/spirits which can only interact with the world around them in a limited capacity?

maybe because its their world, unlike other emblems whos basically a foreign entity. another plausible explanation is Alear method of becoming emblem is just different with other emblems. because not every emblem is on their "after-death" state like Sigurd, also like Marth implies, you could find and meet the original heroes (who could still be alive) in their respective world. While Alear here is THE original Alear

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by joevar

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, joevar said:

maybe because its their world, unlike other emblems whos basically a foreign entity. another plausible explanation is Alear method of becoming emblem is just different with other emblems. because not every emblem is on their "after-death" state like Sigurd, also like Marth implies, you could find and meet the original heroes (who could still be alive) in their respective world. While Alear here is THE original Alear

 

Putting a lot more thought into this than the writers here,  but if we take this to be true, then that wpuld mean if Emblem Marth was brought to Archanea then he cpuld gain a corporeal body. This could actually be an expalantion as to how the Zero Emblem managed to survive in Elyios. They were from that world originally and summoned as an Emblem from a different world and returned to Elyios as an emblem, getting a body on arrival. Of course it wouldn't be anyone from the actual cast of the game, assuming Sobron has any ability to actually identify the Zero Emblem.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Putting a lot more thought into this than the writers here,  but if we take this to be true, then that wpuld mean if Emblem Marth was brought to Archanea then he cpuld gain a corporeal body. This could actually be an expalantion as to how the Zero Emblem managed to survive in Elyios. They were from that world originally and summoned as an Emblem from a different world and returned to Elyios as an emblem, getting a body on arrival. Of course it wouldn't be anyone from the actual cast of the game, assuming Sobron has any ability to actually identify the Zero Emblem.

I still think the whole "Emblem with Physical Body" happened because:

1) The Miracle is meant to be a very unique process, separate from how even the other Emblems came to be.
2) Alear already had a physical body, unlike the other Emblems coming into existence as spirits right off the bat.

So no, Emblem Marth traveling to Archanea doesn't mean they'd get a body... unless they took over the living Marth's one.

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I still think the whole "Emblem with Physical Body" happened because:

1) The Miracle is meant to be a very unique process, separate from how even the other Emblems came to be.
2) Alear already had a physical body, unlike the other Emblems coming into existence as spirits right off the bat.

So no, Emblem Marth traveling to Archanea doesn't mean they'd get a body... unless they took over the living Marth's one.

But doesn't Alear's physicals body like dissolve moments before that? And even sans dissolving, it had already taken a lethal injury. Is he still effectively a corpse and they just gathered his atoms back together and went all Frankenstein on it? 

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But doesn't Alear's physicals body like dissolve moments before that? And even sans dissolving, it had already taken a lethal injury. Is he still effectively a corpse and they just gathered his atoms back together and went all Frankenstein on it? 

I mean, it's literally called a miracle. It shouldn't be surprising then.

So I would think their body at least did remanifest perfectly healthy again.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, it's literally called a miracle. It shouldn't be surprising then.

So I would think their body at least did remanifest perfectly healthy again.

In other words, they were able to create a new body for him.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Jotari