Ranking each game by Class: Brigand/Pirate/Berserker

[Dark Holy Elf]

As usual I'm not putting too much weight on the skills granted by a class, though it's not none. Abstain on Awakening, I don't believe I've ever used them there, but they're probably not very good.

High Tier

Fates: Those stats are extremely impressive, +4 str and +3 spd on Wyvern Lord, for instance. They just ORKO things that many other classes might struggle to, and their skills are good too (HP+5, Rally Str, Axefaire). The critical evade penalty is an issue but it's one you can work around, because even bronze lets Berserker outdamage most other classes, and pairup / Percy exist as well. I think this is Berserker's best showing by quite a bit, honestly.

Okay

Blazing Blade: Hawkeye is a solid unit, though he could be faster. Good at everything else though. Dart is held back by the cost of his promotion; yes, you can find the money to promote him, but it still represents a significant cost which puts a damper on using this otherwise mid-tier unit.

Three Houses: Brigand is good due to Death Blow and having the highest Str mod of any intermediate class (admittedly, it's not a large gap). I find War Master quite overrated, though; Wyvern Lord provides similar combat but with +2 move and canter, and even if you just plan to use Fistfaire, there's a case that War Master is the weakest of the three classes that has it.

Mediocre

Path of Radiance: Largo is... fine. Decently damaging but a bit frail. Can't imagine he's not in the lower half of units in this game overall.

Engage: If you insist on using this class, it's not terrible; great strength and Backup. But there's just no compelling reason to use this when Warrior exists,  has generally better stats (trades 1 str/build for 1 everything else, pretty much), and grants bow access, and bow proficiency is borderline free.

Sacred Stones: Both candidates have serious problems; bad speed, bad accuracy, and in Ross's case starts underlevelled. As for Dozla, just compare his stats to Hawkeye, and then remember that player unit stats are generally a bit higher in SS than Blazing otherwise.

Binding Blade: @ping argued very well recently why axes are good as a secondary weapon in Binding Blade... but they're still not good as a primary, due to bad hit on most things that aren't lance-users. On top of that Geese and Garret have thoroughly underwhelming stats. Gonzales is okay.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Dark Holy Elf

[Shadow Mir]

15 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Deployment slots are not really that much of an issue for them. FE6 is generous with that even on hard mode. Axes are something of a problem when not fighting lance users, but the bigger issue would be Garret's speed and Gonzales being crap before he promotes and then being too heavy to pick up once he does.

Those are problematic too (and in the case of Gonzales in particular, needing a Hero Crest doesn't help). And because of those, I think it's easy to find better choices for my unit slots than an unreliable axe user.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Sacred Stones: Both candidates have serious problems; bad speed, bad accuracy, and in Ross's case starts underlevelled. As for Dozla, just compare his stats to Hawkeye, and then remember that player unit stats are generally a bit higher in SS than Blazing otherwise.

Yikes.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Sacred Stones: Both candidates have serious problems; bad speed, bad accuracy, and in Ross's case starts underlevelled. As for Dozla, just compare his stats to Hawkeye, and then remember that player unit stats are generally a bit higher in SS than Blazing otherwise.

Based on which characters exactly? I've never once gotten that impression comparing units side by side. Quite a few early game units are statistically identical to their FE7 counterpart save for 1 point differences in ancillary stats like Luck and Res. And the only notable growth rate boost anyone has to show for it is Colm's 40% strength. Still not interested in leveling him up. Hawkeye and Dozla are a noticeable rift in power but really FE7's pre-promotes are unmatched across the board and this is not a unique case. I think the biggest rift in power has got to be going from Pent to Saleh. Not just the stats but that staff rank. Eww! FE7 gives you three dudes with A rank, yet No FE8 units join with higher than the C rank that Moulder has. 

[Whisky]

Being Axe locked is a bit of an issue in FE6. It’s definitely nice to be able to switch to a different weapon against non-lance enemies. However, I don’t think it matters as much as people think.

When I tried Garret out for the first time, I was rather impressed given how bad people often say he is. He has some underwhelming stats like Spd, but he has really high HP and Str, and his Skl is pretty good, as good as Percival’s. That 30% Crit bonus gives him a higher chance of 1RKOing Wyverns than a lot of other units have without a Divine Weapon. He has the bulk to survive several hits and only gets doubled by fast enemies.

FE6 gives you more deployment slots than most games. Your units aren’t expected to be soloing groups of enemies, they’re expected to work as a team. You have enough other units to use against non-Lance enemies. Being Axe locked does make him more limited and less useful, but the question is are there enough Lance enemies for him to contribute? I think definitely yes.

From Ch13 onward there are quite a lot of Lance enemies (obviously Garret can’t do anything before Ch15, but we’re talking about the class as a whole here, and how good or bad Axes are). The bulk of enemies in Ch13 are Cavaliers and Wyverns. 14 has a variety of other enemies but the most dangerous ones are Wyverns. 14x again has a variety but includes Wyverns. 15 has Cavaliers and Wyvern among other things. 16 doesn’t have much, just some Armor Knights. Assuming we go to Ilia we face a lot of Pegasi and some Wyverns throughout 17-19. 20 and 20x are rare cases of chapters that don’t have Lance enemies. 21 of course has lots of Wyverns and the next most common enemy type are Cavaliers. 22 doesn’t have many Lance enemies, but 2: again has a lot of Wyverns.

Garret isn’t great, and being Axe locked does limit a unit’s usefulness. But there are plenty of situations for Axe locked units to contribute. Situations that Axes are good for like Ping pointed out in the other thread. I honestly think Garret is underrated. He’s not great, but he’s not had, certainly not terrible like I’ve seen some people say. He also has some utility outside of combat. Just a little bit but it’s more than most units. He can water walk across the moat in 21x.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Based on which characters exactly? I've never once gotten that impression comparing units side by side. Quite a few early game units are statistically identical to their FE7 counterpart save for 1 point differences in ancillary stats like Luck and Res. And the only notable growth rate boost anyone has to show for it is Colm's 40% strength. Still not interested in leveling him up. Hawkeye and Dozla are a noticeable rift in power but really FE7's pre-promotes are unmatched across the board and this is not a unique case. I think the biggest rift in power has got to be going from Pent to Saleh. Not just the stats but that staff rank. Eww! FE7 gives you three dudes with A rank, yet No FE8 units join with higher than the C rank that Moulder has. 

FE7 does have really strong pre-promote, but I think Sacred Stones units are typically stronger otherwise. Joshua has better stats than Guy on HHM, on lower difficulties Guy’s stats are pretty bad. Garcia has better stats than the Fighters in FE7. Franz has good stats. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Based on which characters exactly? I've never once gotten that impression comparing units side by side. Quite a few early game units are statistically identical to their FE7 counterpart save for 1 point differences in ancillary stats like Luck and Res. And the only notable growth rate boost anyone has to show for it is Colm's 40% strength. Still not interested in leveling him up. Hawkeye and Dozla are a noticeable rift in power but really FE7's pre-promotes are unmatched across the board and this is not a unique case. I think the biggest rift in power has got to be going from Pent to Saleh. Not just the stats but that staff rank. Eww! FE7 gives you three dudes with A rank, yet No FE8 units join with higher than the C rank that Moulder has. 

A few examples:

• Eirika is Lyn with better base def/res and better def/luck growth
• Joshua has clearly better bases than Guy (ignoring HM bonuses)
• Franz has +1 str/def on Kent and +5% speed growth
• Garcia has slightly better bases than Dorcas (+1 str, +1 spd, +2 def, admittedly 1 level higher)
• Colm has better str growth than Matthew, yep. 

It's not a massive difference but the trend is generally in this direction. It's a fair point that this is mostly for unpromoted unit comparisons and FE7's prepromos are slightly stronger but even then it's not ironclad, like Seth is better than Marcus and Innes is better than Louise (at least statistically; Louise having that support with Pent does help). Dozla/Hawkeye going hard in the other direction stands out.

Agreed about staff rank, though; Pent -> Saleh was definitely quite a reining in there.

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

From Ch13 onward there are quite a lot of Lance enemies (obviously Garret can’t do anything before Ch15, but we’re talking about the class as a whole here, and how good or bad Axes are). The bulk of enemies in Ch13 are Cavaliers and Wyverns. 14 has a variety of other enemies but the most dangerous ones are Wyverns. 14x again has a variety but includes Wyverns. 15 has Cavaliers and Wyvern among other things. 16 doesn’t have much, just some Armor Knights. Assuming we go to Ilia we face a lot of Pegasi and some Wyverns throughout 17-19. 20 and 20x are rare cases of chapters that don’t have Lance enemies. 21 of course has lots of Wyverns and the next most common enemy type are Cavaliers. 22 doesn’t have many Lance enemies, but 2: again has a lot of Wyverns.

Garret isn’t great, and being Axe locked does limit a unit’s usefulness. But there are plenty of situations for Axe locked units to contribute. Situations that Axes are good for like Ping pointed out in the other thread. I honestly think Garret is underrated. He’s not great, but he’s not had, certainly not terrible like I’ve seen some people say. He also has some utility outside of combat. Just a little bit but it’s more than most units. He can water walk across the moat in 21x.

I dunno. If we go to Sacae instead of Ilia, doesn't that kind of blow a hole in this argument? I don't recall Sacae having many lance users at all. So in the specific case of Garret, if we aren't going to Ilia he's gonna be pretty bad, since he misses 13/14/part of 15, which basically just leaves 21 and 23. He probably deserves some consideration for Ilia runs, but when "isn't too bad in 50% of runs" is the highest praise you can have for someone that's not a great sign.

What sort of utility are you thinking of? I suppose his reasonably high build lets him rescue well (while not being so high that paladins can't rescue him) but I don't really value that on someone without a mount. Otherwise I don't really see much utility; if anything even the mediore Wade/Lott have more utility due to being able to build up supports with units like Shanna and Deke by now; Garret has basically nothing to offer on that front. I'd also think he's pretty unlikely to reach S axes for Armads to gain some manakete-thumping which Echidna or Bartre will have.

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Abstain on Awakening, I don't believe I've ever used them there, but they're probably not very good.

Understandable. No one starts in it.

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

From Ch13 onward there are quite a lot of Lance enemies (obviously Garret can’t do anything before Ch15, but we’re talking about the class as a whole here, and how good or bad Axes are). The bulk of enemies in Ch13 are Cavaliers and Wyverns. 14 has a variety of other enemies but the most dangerous ones are Wyverns. 14x again has a variety but includes Wyverns. 15 has Cavaliers and Wyvern among other things. 16 doesn’t have much, just some Armor Knights. Assuming we go to Ilia we face a lot of Pegasi and some Wyverns throughout 17-19. 20 and 20x are rare cases of chapters that don’t have Lance enemies. 21 of course has lots of Wyverns and the next most common enemy type are Cavaliers. 22 doesn’t have many Lance enemies, but 2: again has a lot of Wyverns.

Garret isn’t great, and being Axe locked does limit a unit’s usefulness. But there are plenty of situations for Axe locked units to contribute. Situations that Axes are good for like Ping pointed out in the other thread. I honestly think Garret is underrated. He’s not great, but he’s not had, certainly not terrible like I’ve seen some people say. He also has some utility outside of combat. Just a little bit but it’s more than most units. He can water walk across the moat in 21x.

Only really being useful if you go to Ilia isn't really a good sign for your overall usefulness, imho... If you end up going to Sacae instead, he's pretty much gonna be a liability. Then that leaves him with only two chapters where he does much of anything.

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

even if you just plan to use Fistfaire, there's a case that War Master is the weakest of the three classes that has it.

Why?

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Fates: Those stats are extremely impressive, +4 str and +3 spd on Wyvern Lord, for instance. They just ORKO things that many other classes might struggle to, and their skills are good too (HP+5, Rally Str, Axefaire). The critical evade penalty is an issue but it's one you can work around, because even bronze lets Berserker outdamage most other classes, and pairup / Percy exist as well. I think this is Berserker's best showing by quite a bit, honestly.

No mention of the DS games? Because I legit think those were Berserker's highest point.

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Engage: If you insist on using this class, it's not terrible; great strength and Backup. But there's just no compelling reason to use this when Warrior exists, has generally better stats (trades 1 str/build for 1 everything else, pretty much), and grants bow access, and bow proficiency is borderline free.

Speaking of, this has to be the one game where both coexisted that Berserker is straight up worse than Warrior. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[ping]

I find that Garret comes at a bit of an unfortunate time considering his role as a filler unit. He shares his joining map with Igrene and Perceval who are both just better than him, and Ch.15 is, generally speaking, a point where players tend to have most of their permanent unit slots filled. There aren't that many units joining after Garret that really recommend themselves for an endgame slot - maybe Fa and Zeiss, who both join on the very next map; Niime, obviously, but that's about it - so the role of "fill a spot on the roster until somebody arrives that I really want to use" that Zealot, Bartre, or Echidna can all play during the midgame really isn't much of a thing anymore when Garret arrives.

To me, he "feels" very similar to Dozla in that regard, actually - a character that's... not great, but OK when they join, but also joining at a point where I don't really feel incentivised to deploy them on the next map.

[Whisky]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Only really being useful if you go to Ilia isn't really a good sign for your overall usefulness, imho... If you end up going to Sacae instead, he's pretty much gonna be a liability. Then that leaves him with only two chapters where he does much of anything.

But who wants to go to Sacae? Ilia is way easier. You said you don’t like going to Chapter 10-11 B route because it’s harder. That’s going to apply to Sacae way more.

Garret is definitely not as useful in Sacae as he is in Ilia, that’s true. But if you go to Ilia then he can be more useful. Not super useful like you’d be hurting if you didn’t use him, but he’s not bad.

I think it’s better to be Axe locked in FE6 than it is to be Bow locked in FE7-9.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Why?

I already commented on War Master vs. War Monk/Cleric, and why I prefer the latter, in a different thread within the past 2-3 months. I can dig up a link if you've forgotten. As for War Master vs. Grappler, the latter ignores terrain penalties (significant for classes which struggle to be useful when they can't reach enemies) and has Fierce Iron Fist.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

No mention of the DS games? Because I legit think those were Berserker's highest point.

I used the class minimally in the DS games, though my memories of the class aren't nearly as positive as yours... checking things, they have +1 str, but -5 spd on Hero, the same str/spd as Paladin (which has +3 move in that game), -1 spd on Warrior, and are just worse than Dracoknight. They look pretty mediocre unless I'm forgetting something.

18 minutes ago, Whisky said:

But who wants to go to Sacae? Ilia is way easier. You said you don’t like going to Chapter 10-11 B route because it’s harder. That’s going to apply to Sacae way more.

Garret is definitely not as useful in Sacae as he is in Ilia, that’s true. But if you go to Ilia then he can be more useful. Not super useful like you’d be hurting if you didn’t use him, but he’s not bad.

If Ilia is way easier, then that only makes Garret look even worse, IMO - you're now saying he's only helpful if... we don't need as much help because we're going an easier route. If anything it would be consistent if we talked about the harder route more, just like we talk about HM more than NM.

But philosophically I feel we should weight both routes fairly similarly when talking about unit worth. Because there are a lot more reasons why a player might end up on one route than the other besides just trying to make their file easier/harder: which route they end up in will be a combination of which units they're choosing to use on this file, and just which one they want to see, since the maps are different (rather like a player might choose to play Eirika or Ephraim route, or even a different 3H route, based on wanting a variety of experiences rather than just the easier/harder one).

Edited March 25, 2023 by Dark Holy Elf

[Whisky]

19 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If Ilia is way easier, then that only makes Garret look even worse, IMO - you're now saying he's only helpful if... we don't need as much help because we're going an easier route. If anything it would be consistent if we talked about the harder route more, just like we talk about HM more than NM.

But philosophically I feel we should weight both routes fairly similarly when talking about unit worth. Because there are a lot more reasons why a player might end up on one route than the other besides just trying to make their file easier/harder: which route they end up in will be a combination of which units they're choosing to use on this file, and just which one they want to see, since the maps are different (rather like a player might choose to play Eirika or Ephraim route, or even a different 3H route, based on wanting a variety of experiences rather than just the easier/harder one).

Well you will likely know which route you want to go to ahead of time and can only go to one per playthrough. So if you go to Ilia then you can get more use out of Garret. If you go to Sacae then he won’t be as good there. The two routes could theoretically be tiered separately if it makes a big enough difference for some units.

Also, I’m just biased against Sacae because I haven’t figured out how to survive there. The Law of Sacae is to have Nomadic Troopers appear around the seize point and kill Roy. It’s the Law. I should really look into better strategies for that route though.

But on the subject of Garret. I just don’t think he’s terrible like some people say. He’s not optimal to use, but he’s not bad, and has some genuine strengths and scenarios where he performs pretty well.

[AnonymousSpeed]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If Ilia is way easier, then that only makes Garret look even worse, IMO - you're now saying he's only helpful if... we don't need as much help because we're going an easier route. If anything it would be consistent if we talked about the harder route more, just like we talk about HM more than NM.

Not sure the logic checks out. Reasonably, you would want to take the path of least resistance and then make that path as easy as possible. We could argue about the difference in how we compare routes versus comparing difficulties, but what Whisky is doing is at least the convention, even if we don't articulate why it is that way.

[Dark Holy Elf]

 

The main difference I can see between difficulty setting and routes (both Sacae/Ilia and game-spanning ones like 3H) is that the former is entirely a question of how tough I want to make things, and the latter has other considerations. So certainly, I don't think it's necessary to only discuss the harder route, and I wasn't advocating for that.

But I also think it's equally unrealistic to only choose the "easier" route. When a player chooses Ilia/Sacae, I'd say the following is the rough order of priority for consideration, assuming the choice is made consciously at all (i.e. we're talking about a player aware of the route split and how to get to each route, even though this is unintuive):

1. Players choose which units to use out of Shanna/Thea/Sue/Sin. Chances are these choices will lead inexorably to a route.
2. Players choose a route based on which one they want to do for personal reasons... most commonly "whatever I didn't do last time" to see all the game's content.
3. Players deliberately choose an easier route or harder route, according to taste... different players might gravitate towards each choice!

You speak of convention but I've actually not seen much consistency on this front. There's a perception that Ephraim route is harder than Eirika (I'm never sure if I agree, but I'll play along), and I've certainly seen some folk advocate for rating units based on the most challenging route... just as I've seen folk like you advocate for the easiest path through the game (on the highest difficulty setting). And finally I've seen people advocate for accounting for both routes: either an average or two separate ratings entirely. So that's four different ways to handle things. For the most part I think the latter two make more sense than the former two; it's pretty silly to pretend that one of Ephraim or Eirika route doesn't exist, and it's similarly pretty silly to deny the existence of one of Sacae or Ilia IMO. The only route we can safely deny the existence of in discussions is Silver Snow given how all the stats suggest it's way less played than any others.

Spoiler

I'm kidding about the last sentence. Mostly.

 

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I already commented on War Master vs. War Monk/Cleric, and why I prefer the latter, in a different thread within the past 2-3 months. I can dig up a link if you've forgotten. As for War Master vs. Grappler, the latter ignores terrain penalties (significant for classes which struggle to be useful when they can't reach enemies) and has Fierce Iron Fist.

I remember that, but re: War Monk/Cleric, the logic fails to check out, if you ask me...

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I used the class minimally in the DS games, though my memories of the class aren't nearly as positive as yours... checking things, they have +1 str, but -5 spd on Hero, the same str/spd as Paladin (which has +3 move in that game), -1 spd on Warrior, and are just worse than Dracoknight. They look pretty mediocre unless I'm forgetting something.

For me, it's that the nerf to evasion makes it such that the biggest issue with axes - their accuracy - isn't as big an issue there as it is in other games. Even if axes are arguably the worst weapon type in New Mystery (which is more due to the other weapon types having more utility than anything else). The only real issue that stands out here is that you can only have two at most. Contrast Fates (which I'm bringing up squarely because you're of the mind they're good there), where seal shenanigans aside (thanks to them being limited for most of the game), the only options for Berserker are Arthur, who already has problems with crit chances, and sucks at everything that isn't being a pair up bot besides, and Charlotte, who comes underleveled, and ALSO sucks at combat, and thus is only really worth using as a pair up bot. You also mention Percy, but... when he's tied to Arthur, who I already consider one of the worst units in the game, to the point where I might not even bother to get him... yeah.

Also, where would you say Oni Savage and its promotions fall into this? I haven't see them mentioned in the FIghter/Warrior topic...

On 3/19/2023 at 9:12 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Sacred Stones: First off, Dozla is an OK unit, not great like Hawkeye was in Blazing Blase, but perfectly usable, although its Pirate Ross that has one interesting niche use that puts him up here as well. Rescue dropping Pirate Ross into the sea to spawn block the ambush spawn boss of Phantom Ship is an important part of turning one of Sacred Stones most infamous maps, into a trivial walk in the park. Admittedly a flyer could do that as well (and are needed to get him into the water, as Sacred Stones is kinda stupid with how it handles water walking), but they do a better job of covering the seas above/below the ships with Javelins (and possibly a Pure Water) to enemy phase the eyeballs, so the otherwise kinda meh Ross fills the role better.

I disagree here. Dozla is pretty bad; considering his prepromo status, 9 base speed is ass by Sacred Stones standards. The other prepromos have at least 12 base speed. RE: Ross, while @Zapp Branniglenn mentions Pirate Ross getting 1 point of speed more than Fighter, I'd say that's offset by the fact that anything heavier than an iron axe weighs him down. Also, when the one niche use you say he has requires flier aid in the first place, I'd be more inclined to just use a flier for that instead, and deal with whatever repercussions stem from doing so than field a mediocre unit just for that.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

12 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Based on which characters exactly? I've never once gotten that impression comparing units side by side. Quite a few early game units are statistically identical to their FE7 counterpart save for 1 point differences in ancillary stats like Luck and Res. And the only notable growth rate boost anyone has to show for it is Colm's 40% strength. Still not interested in leveling him up. Hawkeye and Dozla are a noticeable rift in power but really FE7's pre-promotes are unmatched across the board and this is not a unique case. I think the biggest rift in power has got to be going from Pent to Saleh. Not just the stats but that staff rank. Eww! FE7 gives you three dudes with A rank, yet No FE8 units join with higher than the C rank that Moulder has. 

 

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

A few examples:

• Eirika is Lyn with better base def/res and better def/luck growth
• Joshua has clearly better bases than Guy (ignoring HM bonuses)
• Franz has +1 str/def on Kent and +5% speed growth
• Garcia has slightly better bases than Dorcas (+1 str, +1 spd, +2 def, admittedly 1 level higher)
• Colm has better str growth than Matthew, yep. 

It's not a massive difference but the trend is generally in this direction. It's a fair point that this is mostly for unpromoted unit comparisons and FE7's prepromos are slightly stronger but even then it's not ironclad, like Seth is better than Marcus and Innes is better than Louise (at least statistically; Louise having that support with Pent does help). Dozla/Hawkeye going hard in the other direction stands out.

Agreed about staff rank, though; Pent -> Saleh was definitely quite a reining in there.

I dunno. If we go to Sacae instead of Ilia, doesn't that kind of blow a hole in this argument? I don't recall Sacae having many lance users at all. So in the specific case of Garret, if we aren't going to Ilia he's gonna be pretty bad, since he misses 13/14/part of 15, which basically just leaves 21 and 23. He probably deserves some consideration for Ilia runs, but when "isn't too bad in 50% of runs" is the highest praise you can have for someone that's not a great sign.

What sort of utility are you thinking of? I suppose his reasonably high build lets him rescue well (while not being so high that paladins can't rescue him) but I don't really value that on someone without a mount. Otherwise I don't really see much utility; if anything even the mediore Wade/Lott have more utility due to being able to build up supports with units like Shanna and Deke by now; Garret has basically nothing to offer on that front. I'd also think he's pretty unlikely to reach S axes for Armads to gain some manakete-thumping which Echidna or Bartre will have.

Hey look, it's the guy who's calculated the average stats of every game in the series and has them handy on file. And the result is

Game	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Con
BlazingBlade	47.39659091	23.03787879	22.675	21.86931818	23.22840909	18.94545455	15.5125	15.45454545	9.329545455
SacredStones	48.56538462	23.34363636	24.23409091	22.10897436	23.03846154	19.97564103	15.71410256	16.20064103	9.487179487

 

Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones is pretty much the same. The only difference bigger than a single digit is Saced Stones characters having slightly higher HP and magic, but magic.

Of course my on hand statistics are for 20/20 averages, or, in other words, end game stats and not character bases. And we all know bases are more important for such conversations. But, hey, I have the information already prepared, I couldn't not share (and maybe incase it crops up again I should calculate all the base stats and whip up an average hmm...)

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

Hey look, it's the guy who's calculated the average stats of every game in the series and has them handy on file. And the result is

 

Game	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Con
BlazingBlade	47.39659091	23.03787879	22.675	21.86931818	23.22840909	18.94545455	15.5125	15.45454545	9.329545455
SacredStones	48.56538462	23.34363636	24.23409091	22.10897436	23.03846154	19.97564103	15.71410256	16.20064103	9.487179487

 

Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones is pretty much the same. The only difference bigger than a single digit is Saced Stones characters having slightly higher HP and magic, but magic.

Of course my on hand statistics are for 20/20 averages, or, in other words, end game stats and not character bases. And we all know bases are more important for such conversations. But, hey, I have the information already prepared, I couldn't not share (and maybe incase it crops up again I should calculate all the base stats and whip up an average hmm...)

Thank you for this. I just don't understand playing a lot of these two games and coming to the conclusion that FE8 characters just have higher stats across the board. Certain cases sure, but plenty examples of the inverse as well. Sacred Stones isn't Tellius. Or Awakening where stat inflation quickly gets out of control, so even pointing out one point differences between these two games feels very moot. Lyn and Eirika are both sword locked units possessing 16 hp, 4 strength, and 9 speed. So when somebody says "Lyn and Eirika are pretty much identical", that's a true enough statement. We can add more context: Lyn can potentially level up in Lyn Mode and be given the HP or Str booster, Eirika has way better prf weapons and promotion, but Eirika having a point in defense is way down the priority list of things to point out since they're both dying in two hits either way in that direct Level 1 comparison.

What really sets FE8 apart from 7 is its mechanical changes. Artur is noticeably behind Lucius in stats, but the Bishop's Slayer skill is a massive power boost against monsters. Batre gaining access to bows on promotion means very little even when fliers show up, but Garcia gaining access to bows means he can pull the one shot on a few more unit types - no speed stat required. The Pent/Saleh staff rank dilemna I mentioned earlier informs why Moulder is considered such a useful unit in a way that Serra can't compare to. Ephraim isn't the best GBA lord because of his stats. It's because he has the Reginleif, which is a 24 MT weapon against certain opponents. Meanwhile FE7 lords have much greater trouble reaching that same OHKO range with their "rapier" weapons. 

 

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I disagree here. Dozla is pretty bad; considering his prepromo status, 9 base speed is ass by Sacred Stones standards. The other prepromos have at least 12 base speed. RE: Ross, while @Zapp Branniglenn mentions Pirate Ross getting 1 point of speed more than Fighter, I'd say that's offset by the fact that anything heavier than an iron axe weighs him down. 

Fighter Ross is also still weighed down by anything heavier than the Iron Axe. I think the math speaks for itself. Fighter Ross and Pirate Ross have the same AS when wielding a hand axe or higher, but Pirate Ross gets that +1 edge with the Hatchet and Iron Axes. Then, when it's time to promote into Berserker, his Con raises by another 3. That's the same 13 Con he'd have as a Warrior. Hero Ross has the same 11 Con he enjoyed as a Fighter. That's something I neglected to notice when going over the three options.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Thank you for this. I just don't understand playing a lot of these two games and coming to the conclusion that FE8 characters just have higher stats across the board. Certain cases sure, but plenty examples of the inverse as well. Sacred Stones isn't Tellius. Or Awakening where stat inflation quickly gets out of control, so even pointing out one point differences between these two games feels very moot. Lyn and Eirika are both sword locked units possessing 16 hp, 4 strength, and 9 speed. So when somebody says "Lyn and Eirika are pretty much identical", that's a true enough statement. We can add more context: Lyn can potentially level up in Lyn Mode and be given the HP or Str booster, Eirika has way better prf weapons and promotion, but Eirika having a point in defense is way down the priority list of things to point out since they're both dying in two hits either way in that direct Level 1 comparison.

What really sets FE8 apart from 7 is its mechanical changes. Artur is noticeably behind Lucius in stats, but the Bishop's Slayer skill is a massive power boost against monsters. Batre gaining access to bows on promotion means very little even when fliers show up, but Garcia gaining access to bows means he can pull the one shot on a few more unit types - no speed stat required. The Pent/Saleh staff rank dilemna I mentioned earlier informs why Moulder is considered such a useful unit in a way that Serra can't compare to. Ephraim isn't the best GBA lord because of his stats. It's because he has the Reginleif, which is a 24 MT weapon against certain opponents. Meanwhile FE7 lords have much greater trouble reaching that same OHKO range with their "rapier" weapons. 

 

Fighter Ross is also still weighed down by anything heavier than the Iron Axe. I think the math speaks for itself. Fighter Ross and Pirate Ross have the same AS when wielding a hand axe or higher, but Pirate Ross gets that +1 edge with the Hatchet and Iron Axes. Then, when it's time to promote into Berserker, his Con raises by another 3. That's the same 13 Con he'd have as a Warrior. Hero Ross has the same 11 Con he enjoyed as a Fighter. That's something I neglected to notice when going over the three options.

A weird thing comparing the two games is also Sacred Stones smaller cast. Blazing Blade has an additional eleven units, that's like a 33% increase over Sacred Stones. Whereas one came has possibly three units in the same base class, Sacred Stones has three shared between a base class, a prepromote and the trainee who is pulling double time for half a dozen classes. This means, despite the extra classes, Sacred Stones characters are somewhat more boxed into their roles in terms of stat variety...eh...probably? Maybe that's not true and I'm talking out my ass here, but the difference in how classes are handled and cast size does seem like something that warrants a mention in comparing the games.

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I remember that, but re: War Monk/Cleric, the logic fails to check out, if you ask me...

If you have something substantial to argue, then we can go over it, either here or in the thread. If this is the extent of your feelings, then let's just agree to disagree.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

For me, it's that the nerf to evasion makes it such that the biggest issue with axes - their accuracy - isn't as big an issue there as it is in other games. Even if axes are arguably the worst weapon type in New Mystery (which is more due to the other weapon types having more utility than anything else).

The nerf to evasion has a corresponding nerf to accuracy bonus from stats, so I can't say I saw much difference on that front. I would say axe accuracy is a smaller issue than it is in Binding Blade, certainly, but a larger one than Tellius (where axes only have -5 hit compared to lances and forging exists) or Three Houses (Smash's +20 hit and linked attacks to the rescue). But a deeper comparison is probably getting too much into the weeds for this thread. We agree that axes are at best a relatively average weapon type in the DS games... at which point we have to look squarely at Berserker itself, and Berserker just doesn't look very good at all... it just does not has impressive stats, as per my comparisons above, and offers nothing else (no second weapon, no mount, etc.).

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Contrast Fates (which I'm bringing up squarely because you're of the mind they're good there), where seal shenanigans aside (thanks to them being limited for most of the game)

Yeah, for games with reclassing, I'm gonna put a lot more weight on how much I want to reclass to the class, not who starts in it. By midgame (especially the C13 shop checkpoint and characters reaching A+/S supports to use Friendship/Marriage Seals) you do start getting quite a lot of seals so you can start switching people over to Berserker if you'd like, and for me at least, the point is I actually do like doing that. Whereas I never looked at someone like Ogma and said "Hmm I bet he'd look better as a Berserker".

[Jotari]

As  someone who has recently completed a H5 playthrough of Shadow Dragon, I have to disagree that axes are average in that game. In the early game they are by far your best method with dealing with troublesome enemies. Particualrly the great mt the Devil's Axe provides. You might not be doubling with them, but you'll be struggling to double in general so going for the big hit with an axe definitely has its advantages. You also go up against a lot of lance enemies helping their hit issues and you get Hautclere quite a bit earlier than Mercurius or Gradivus making it one of your most potent tools alongside Parthia (which comes so early you likely won't have anyone to use it until Jeorge).

Now does that translate to Berserkers being good...no, not really, since they lack their innate crit they have in other games (though apparently they have 10% crit in New Mystery), so you're better off going Hero or Warrior for the second weapon types for those occasions where it's useful. All Berserkers really provide is more favorable terrain movement, which is very niche. In general though, axes are quite well balanced in Shadow Dragon and I'd even say rival lances if not for the existence of the Wing Spear.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The nerf to evasion has a corresponding nerf to accuracy bonus from stats, so I can't say I saw much difference on that front. I would say axe accuracy is a smaller issue than it is in Binding Blade, certainly, but a larger one than Tellius (where axes only have -5 hit compared to lances and forging exists) or Three Houses (Smash's +20 hit and linked attacks to the rescue). But a deeper comparison is probably getting too much into the weeds for this thread. We agree that axes are at best a relatively average weapon type in the DS games... at which point we have to look squarely at Berserker itself, and Berserker just doesn't look very good at all... it just does not has impressive stats, as per my comparisons above, and offers nothing else (no second weapon, no mount, etc.).

Sure, but on the other hand, SD has a shitload of lance units on the enemy side, meaning axes get WTA on those. Also, forging is a thing in the DS games as well, and weapon rank bonuses help on that front too, as does the fact that Hauteclere comes early. Long story short, saying axes are average in the DS games (or at least SD) is selling them short.

@Jotari I had just checked, and it turns out Berserkers did get boosted crit in SD.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, for games with reclassing, I'm gonna put a lot more weight on how much I want to reclass to the class, not who starts in it. By midgame (especially the C13 shop checkpoint and characters reaching A+/S supports to use Friendship/Marriage Seals) you do start getting quite a lot of seals so you can start switching people over to Berserker if you'd like, and for me at least, the point is I actually do like doing that. Whereas I never looked at someone like Ogma and said "Hmm I bet he'd look better as a Berserker".

On the flipside, there's absolutely no one in Fates that I'd look at and think "Hmm, maybe making them a Berserker is a good idea". Even ignoring the -5 cev, which forces me to waste a unit slot on a unit who I have to go out of my way to make exist thanks to him being tied to one of the worst units in the game - and pretty much tether him to those units, to boot, thus incurring a big opportunity cost in the process - there's no relevant nuke option for axes the same way Hauteclere was in SD, and second, the lack of minimum weapon rank makes things worse for reclassed units unless either you did so early or they had axe rank already (that said, weapon rank ain't as big a problem in Fates as in certain other games). Anyway, it ain't a good look for the class when I'm just shooting myself in the foot by running a Berserker in Fates.

6 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Fighter Ross is also still weighed down by anything heavier than the Iron Axe. I think the math speaks for itself. Fighter Ross and Pirate Ross have the same AS when wielding a hand axe or higher, but Pirate Ross gets that +1 edge with the Hatchet and Iron Axes. Then, when it's time to promote into Berserker, his Con raises by another 3. That's the same 13 Con he'd have as a Warrior. Hero Ross has the same 11 Con he enjoyed as a Fighter. That's something I neglected to notice when going over the three options.

That's fair, but is that making much of a difference when he's still as slow as a snail either way...? I don't see him doubling much of anything that isn't the stuff that literally anyone could double without issue (aka, loldiers, revenants, armors).

Edited March 25, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

@Jotari I had just checked, and it turns out Berserkers did get boosted crit in SD.

Oh. The wiki didn't mention it. It's still not a huge boost compared to other games. Though maybe you can make an effective build with a forged killer axe.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

On the flipside, there's absolutely no one in Fates that I'd look at and think "Hmm, maybe making them a Berserker is a good idea".

Well, obviously I disagree. Their huge strength and speed are very nice to have, they get good skills, and they have nice pairup bonuses. Their crit evade penalty is easy to work around, in no small part because their power is so high; as I've mentioned before, a Berserker with a Bronze Axe has better str/spd/hit/crit-evade than a Wyvern with an Iron Axe, and presumably you have no issues with the latter, right?

Compare SD Berserker and it's like... why would I use this? You mention Hauteclaire as if Dracoknight doesn't exist and has far better stats across the board in addition to mobility.

[Jotari]

I've only played Engage once so far, but for me default Berserker Panette with Lyn was an invaluable unit. She was basically the only unit with the strength to secure one round potential against most enemies. I suspect Jean could make for a very good Berserker too if you can reclass him early enough.

[Ether]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I've only played Engage once so far, but for me default Berserker Panette with Lyn was an invaluable unit. She was basically the only unit with the strength to secure one round potential against most enemies. I suspect Jean could make for a very good Berserker too if you can reclass him early enough.

Unfortunately for berserker, this is a case of Panette being a very good unit on her own, not berserker as a class being good. Panette swapped into warrior is pretty much a superior version with no practical drawbacks, ignoring the other classes she could go into like Paladin or Wyvern and still do Panette things. 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well, obviously I disagree. Their huge strength and speed are very nice to have, they get good skills, and they have nice pairup bonuses. Their crit evade penalty is easy to work around, in no small part because their power is so high; as I've mentioned before, a Berserker with a Bronze Axe has better str/spd/hit/crit-evade than a Wyvern with an Iron Axe, and presumably you have no issues with the latter, right?

Compare SD Berserker and it's like... why would I use this? You mention Hauteclaire as if Dracoknight doesn't exist and has far better stats across the board in addition to mobility.

Now let me get this straight... you consider mobility to win out in SD, and not so much in Fates??? You are sending me mixed messages here... Anyway, sure, Berserker can fix its cev problem by memeing it up with bronze, being glued to Percy, or by being paired up... but I'd rather NOT have to do those things just to make them usable, thank you very much. And their skills don't make up for that, nor do their pair up bonuses. Also, being axe-locked in Fates, AKA Murphy's Law: The Game is a Very Bad Thing.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Dark Holy Elf]

25 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Now let me get this straight... you consider mobility to win out in SD, and not so much in Fates???

Correct. Let's look at the numbers again.

Bold numbers are wins for berserker, italics are wins for wyvern:

• Berserker vs. Dracoknight, Shadow Dragon: 1 Str, 4 def, 3 res, 3 move vs. 4 HP, 10 crit
• Berserker vs. Wyvern Lord, Fates: 5 def, 4 res, 2 move, 5 crit-eva vs. 5 HP, 4 str, 3 spd, 20 crit

As you can see Fates Berserker has far bigger wins than its SD counterpart (SD Berserker actually loses strength, while tying speed!), winning every stat by larger margins. The move gap, while always a win for Wyvern, is a smaller one in Fates.

Again, if you're worried about critical evade, we can just equip bronze instead of iron, and even with that power sacrifice, Fates!Berserker still outdamages Fates!Wyvern (and by proxy, outdamages SD!Berserker as well). It'll also up their relative accuracy (bronze axe = iron lance for hit, before axes' better rank bonuses), which is relevant to the section below.

25 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, being axe-locked in Fates, AKA Murphy's Law: The Game is a Very Bad Thing.

Why is it any worse than being axe-locked in SD? Fates has the Dual Club, so at least one Berserker on your team will have an answer to enemy sword-users, unlike SD Berserkers.

Fates also has more ways to boost low hit, between support bonuses, attack stance, and certain skills. (I believe Shadow Dragon has invisible support bonuses too, but most characters only support two or three other PCs in the entire game, unlike in Fates.)

Edited March 25, 2023 by Dark Holy Elf