Ranking each game by class: Thief/Assassin

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, SnowFire said:

My one small contribution to this will be to defend the honor of Three Houses thieves a tad.  Intermediate classes don't differ very much from each other.  If you A) Are interested in long term sword rank (and thus would like to be training swords slightly more efficiently), B) Uninterested in Vantage, C) Uninterested in magic use or Bowrange +1, then Thief is probably your best option - it's a little faster than Mercenary.  Like most Intermediate physical classes, Thief lives under the shadow of the overly centralizing Brigand, but it's not unreasonable to spend time in both given how cheap Intermediate Seals are if you finish up Death Blow early, and I wouldn't say that the existence of Brigand immediately sends all other physical Intermediate classes into toilet tier - you can still distinguish that Thief is better than weak options like Brawler / Lord / Armored Knight.

Additionally, the time you have Intermediate classes is also when you might be doing some of the early White Clouds paralogues which, especially if you don't delay a month or two, are some of the more challenging White Clouds content where that extra bit of Speed is most potent.  Thief is also a little extra good for Ashe/Catherine's paralogue (Fog of War, not totally trivial if you don't know where the enemies are hiding).  And while stealables vary from not existing to sucking, the one stealable that can be a notable nice boost is stealing the Evasion Ring from Claude in C7 for the Lions or Eagles when you might naturally be deploying a Thief anyway, which enables dodge tank strategies to get rolling a little faster without need for using the Pagan Altar.  (For all that you really want Petra or Yuri or a source of Rally Speed to pull that steal off.)

I think people generally know what to expect of 3H Assassin, Stealth allows some cool plays and it is better than the meme-tier Swordfaire classes, but is competing against some really busted stuff.  Ends up middle-of-the-road, usable and defensible if you like swords.

--

On Shadow Dragon, my memory is misty of that game, but I'd buy the "get a Thief to hurry things up rather than wait for Marth to hike everywhere" only really in the context of stuff like LTCs.  I don't recall a ton of "finish the map by turn XYZ or tons of reinforcements are thrown at you" in SD - there are some huge reinforcement waves but I seem to recall them being more "move into this area" based, so the game doesn't really punish you for waiting for Marth to hike around the map.  And I imagine the existence of Warp Staff already makes SD LTCs speedy enough that attempting to train up Julian seems like asking for trouble, so it's more like a niche for casual LTC, which is something I guess but not worth TOO much hype.

Don't you beed to have thief mastered to go Trickster in Three Houses too?

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not until you get the Fell Contract, which is in a side chapter (and you get Jaffar in said side chapter anyway, so there's a good reason not to bother).

They can also steal weapons in that game. Same for Radiant Dawn. 

From what I've seen, they mostly steal only one thing, then book it. Even in something like Altea Castle, where there's like 7 chests in the same spot. Which feels extremely odd relative to the GBA games and Path of Radiance, where they'd steal from more than one chest, and (Binding Blade excepted) you only got back what they most recently took when you killed them. However, this wasn't as big a concern in Path of Radiance, where you could just steal back whatever they took, even if it was a weapon (this could be done in the GBA games as well, but you couldn't steal weapons in those games).

Thieves in Blazing Blade actually can be promoted. But whether it's actually worth it to do so is debatable.

Anyway...

Radiant Dawn was where thieves were at their best. Keys (mostly) weren't buyable, and as stated earlier, they could steal weapons if they weren't equipped. Which can lead to some hilarious shenanigans when combined with Disarm (though unfortunately, the fact that you have Heather for this for most of the time you have Disarm might put a damper on this, as you need higher strength than the weapon's weight to steal it). Who needs to buy weapons when I can just get them for free? Also, Sothe is one of your best units in part 1 (fitting, since unlike everyone else you get before, he is a veteran of the prior war). He falls off later on, but that's kinda to be expected, and Sothe himself lampshades in endgame that he feels blatantly out of place. Volke is great this time, but suffers from low availability, only being usable in the chapter right before endgame, and the endgame itself (not helping matters is that Sothe is forced in the endgame). Oh, and they're better at finding hidden items - a concept that while it cropped up in some prior games, this game takes to the extreme, as a good chunk of maps have some hidden stuff - than other units.

The GBA games made them mostly essential, especially Binding Blade with its lack of droppable items. Mostly due to key steals, like stat boosters and promotion items. Enhanced vision in fog of war helps, esp. when they use torches. And some of the fog of war maps in these games suck ASS. Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones have Assassin as a promotion for them, but... in the former, you don't get the item for it until a lategame side chapter, and if you accessed said side chapter, you get Jaffar as a high level Assassin out the box (also, odds are neither Matthew nor Legault are going to outshine him in any meaningful fashion, because again, this comes so late). In the latter, they (read: Colm) need the Ocean Seal instead, and imho, he's the better user of it. Myrmidons also have Assassin access... but it's a letdown.

In Awakening, keys are again something you only get a handful of, and so you're gonna need thieves, or at least Locktouch, to get chests. Anna can pack a punch with a Levin Sword and has staves as well. Gaius... just pales in comparison. Not just to Anna, but to most of your other sword units, for that matter.

Fates... well, I'ma be honest. I do not think as highly of the ninjas as most everyone else does, mostly because every time I've tried to give them a chance, they fail to impress, Kaze especially (which isn't helped by shurikens having low might). On the Nohrian side... well, to be blunt, my opinion of Niles is that he is no better. Excellent speed, but S H I T damage. His daughter Nina is infinitely better than him. All this being said, once again, you cannot buy keys, and also unlike in other games, keys can only be used in the chapter you get them in, and they disappear after it's complete, so they're pretty much necessary.

Three Houses: Well, Thief isn't THAT bad an intermediate class if you're interested in sword use long term (like Byleth!!). Assassin is one of the most mobile infantry classes, with Stealth to boot. It's perfectly usable if you like swords. Trickster... isn't as good, to say the least; it has magic access... but only half magic, and it loses Swordfaire for Lucky Seven, which is a poor trade. Knowing that it's DLC, and that I liked Trickster in Awakening, seeing it be so bad hurts.

Shadow Dragon: Well, the Fire Emblem basically allowing Marth to replicate one of the main utilities of thieves hurts their case... but on the other hand, with Marth being the only unit who can visit villages, and often needing to recruit other characters, they're still useful.

Path of Radiance: Again, they can steal unequipped weapons (and staves, which might be a reason why staves became equippable in RD), though unlike in RD, their combat is pretty laughable because knives suck. Volke gets to promote eventually... though his combat is still pretty bad relative to other units. At least he still can steal stuff.

Engage: Thieves are more combat based here than before. While their covert tag gets them praise for fog strats with Corrin... I generally find other aspects of Corrin's kit to be more useful. 

I'm not sure about Altea specifically,  but generally, in the chapters that have chests, they have a theif for each one. The only issue I can think of is maybe Gra where you have two chests in the south eaat. Even if Marth couldn't unlock chests, the rarity of chests, the existence of chest keys (and master keys) and enemy thieves unlocking chests for you makes thieves have no niche. Marth being able to do what they do is just insult to injury. Thieves suck at combat and can do only one thing, and said one thing can also be accomplished by any unit in the game.

[Shadow Mir]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Don't you beed to have thief mastered to go Trickster in Three Houses too?

I don't think so. I think it only needs Thief certification.

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not sure about Altea specifically,  but generally, in the chapters that have chests, they have a theif for each one. The only issue I can think of is maybe Gra where you have two chests in the south eaat. Even if Marth couldn't unlock chests, the rarity of chests, the existence of chest keys (and master keys) and enemy thieves unlocking chests for you makes thieves have no niche. Marth being able to do what they do is just insult to injury. Thieves suck at combat and can do only one thing, and said one thing can also be accomplished by any unit in the game.

Don't you only get like 2 sets of 5 master keys in SD, both in the same chapter to boot (and no chest keys)? Anyway, yeah, I think this game is one of the lowest points for thieves.

[ping]

6 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I had actually forgotten about that...Does anyone remember an instance where you can setup a good weapon steal in Path of Radiance?

The Paladin boss in Blood Runs Red, i.e. the map right after Volke joins, has a Laguzslayer and a bow. I think you need to BEXP Volke a Str/Spd level to steal the Laguzslayer, but if you do, it's an easy set-up (just put somebody at the boss's max range) and the Laguzslayer is not a bad weapon for the boat map.

Although I don't think this is a particularly big deal. Yes, the weapon deals good damage against the ravens, but since you're given another one for free anyway, you can only use the second one if you're using Zihark or Mia. And besides, the chapter is pretty good to sandbag for additional XP, since the ravens come in small groups and they give a decent amount of chip XP, so I generally end up using weak weapons deliberately and leave the Laguzslayers unused in the convoy.

So basically, I think that stealing in PoR is something that "feels" a lot better and more powerful than it actually is.

21 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Path of Radiance: First off Doors are breakable, even ignoring door keys, second this game tends to give you chest keys on maps with chests, third you tend to get as much money as you need, and the best stuff is what you forge anyway, and you only get to forge once a chapter to limit how much you can spend on them anyway. Their combat being hilariously bad, and your first thief literally takes money from you any time you use them just adds insult to the injury done to the poor guys. I guess you can steal staves and coins, but neither are really that impressive. Less useless than the DS games, but not great.

In defence of Volke's small fee - thieves in previous games used lockpicks which you could sell for decent money, so they technically had a similar cost for opening a lock. GBAFE lockpicks have a value of 80 gold per use (so they sell for 40/use).

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, ping said:

In defence of Volke's small fee - thieves in previous games used lockpicks which you could sell for decent money, so they technically had a similar cost for opening a lock. GBAFE lockpicks have a value of 80 gold per use (so they sell for 40/use).

Yeah, Lockpicks are a particularly good source of money. That also makes them a pretty desirable weapon to steal using your own thieves. I always make sure to relieve Cath of her lockpick before having her run off.

[ping]

From best to worst:

• Radiant Dawn - Sothe good, as much as I dislike his character in RD. He's easily the most impactful thief character in the series, as far as I've played it. To be honest, I don't remember too well how much stealable goodies this game has, but going by what others have been writing, it's at least not insiginificant. Still, Sothe being a carry in part 1 is what makes me put RD at the top of the list.
• Blazing Sword - @Eltosian Kadath mentioned that there's a lot of stealable promotion items and since these are only buyable in Sands of Time's Secret Shop (...at the cost of a warp use, no less), this can be quite important. Completely solving any money issues by getting the Silver Card is really nice, too. Combat-wise, none of the three representitives are amazing, but Matthew has some use while your team is still small, Jaffar does has very good stats and can be quite effective in Cog, and Legault can still at least do a bit of combat here and there when he's fielded for utility.
• Binding Blade - I don't think you can steal a ton of valuables from the enemies, but the stolen Lockpicks add up over time, I guess. Using a thief instead of a Chest Key also saves money (80 gold/use instead of 300) over time, and any coin is valuable in this game. The big price is Narcian's Delphi Shield, of course, especially if you're going to Sacae. Turning Milady into a hard-counter against Nomads is quite nice. Still, I'd say that BlaBla's thieves bring a bit more value to the table than in this game. Not sure how I would compare combat utility, actually - none of the BinBla thieves have any long-term viability in that regard, of course, but Astore's combat is arguably more important than anything the BlaBla thieves do. Overall, I think the Elibe games are quite close in this ranking.
• Sacred Stones - There's a couple nice stealables, namely stat boosters (the ch.6 Energy Ring and a Speedwing in Eph!Ch.13 are probably the most important ones), but I think it's overall less impactful than what you get in the Elibe games. Chest keys are buyable again and money is overall less valuable than in BlaBla, so I'd rate that thieving aspect a bit lower, too. As far as combat goes, Colm is OK, I guess - but despite his higher XP growth, he's kinda frail, his strength isn't great, he starts with (E) Swords, so he can't use Steel to turn overkill Spd into attack power for a while, and he's swordlocked in a 1-2-range-focused game. Honestly, I'm still giving Astore the edge here.
• Path of Radiance - I think it's been mentioned often enough that neither their stealing yields nor their combat is all that great. Volke would have had decent stats, if a bit low on Def if it wasn't for knives being so terrible, but it is what it is.
• Shadow Dragon / New Mystery - Lumping them together because I'm not an expert on SD specifically. I tend to field Julian when there's chests on the map so that Marth can do other things, but it's not a good look that he (and Rickard) are technically made redundant by their employer.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 3/26/2023 at 7:31 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

The fact that I didn't mention it has less to do with my knowledge of the fact and more that I can't ever recall weapon stealing being particularly useful. RD Bolting is a fun toy for one map but almost certainly more trouble than it's worth, and otherwise I just don't recall any time an enemy carries a stealable weapon I care about. Maybe you could get Sothe to steal something cool off of Mordecai in 3-6?

Alas, the words of someone who has never given Sanaki a blessed Bolting for floor 3 of the Tower.

On 3/26/2023 at 8:27 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

I will note that Binding Blade has no stealable stat boosters, and the first promotion item you can steal is in chapter 19 on one route, and 20 on the other...

Interesting, I did not know that! Still, you definitely want to get the Delphi Shield off of Narcian, at least.

On 3/26/2023 at 5:36 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

But I try to also rank at least a little on casual play, and the whole spectrum inbetween. You can absolutely get through FE4 comfortably without ever using the Give Gold command.

This is a very solid point. Dew in particular, and your Thieves in general, probably have the biggest glow-up between considering them on a "casual" playthrough, and on a "ranked" playthrough.

On 3/26/2023 at 5:36 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Otherwise sensible play can be wiped out by him failing to dodge an enemy. 1RN is 1RN after all. I wouldn't be surprised if Dew is the most likely killed unit in FE4.

Probably him, or else the "Bragi Peninsula Trio" of Brigid, Claud, and Tiltyu in chapter 3. If any one of them is killed, the other two are screwed.

Going back to Dew's join time, you can set him on a Forest or Village tile. None of the mooks can hit him (so they ignore him), while the boss can one-shot, but his Hit Rate is in the single-digits or so. In theory, with good RN luck, it should be possible for him to survive until the cavalry arrives. In practice, it's just safer and more consistent for him to escort Edain to the main army.

On 3/26/2023 at 5:36 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

And also isn't it kind of annoying that you have to give ALL your gold? Dew's ability to buy anything from the pawnshop for "free" is hampered severely by that specific detail.

Yeah, these can be tricky things to work around. I like to do the "have Dew buy something that's valuable, but that no one really needs right now" strategy. That way, he can give his leftover gold (and accumulate more), while still retaining a "nest egg" that he can convert later on - to the Paragon Band, or the Pursuit Band, or simply as another gift. He's definitely not well-served by keeping a light inventory and always giving Gold away ASAP.

On 3/26/2023 at 5:36 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

He wants the light brand for safer player phase stealing, but Ethlyn and Lachesis can actually fight pretty well with that thing and are in greater need of the EXP to promote.

While I agree that Dew's combat is bad with the Light Brand, I don't think either Ethlyn or Lachesis can make a strong claim to it. In the field, either of them can staffspam for experience. When it comes to getting through the Arena, they're better served by the Slim, Silver, Brave, and Miracle Swords. Moreover, while it's true that they do better in Magic than your other Sword-using units, that doesn't always translate to more damage. Sigurd, Alec, and Beowulf all have the Pursuit skill, meaning they'll do more on average in a single round of combat than Ethlyn. And Beowulf can Accost, too - as can Naoise. Ethlyn does have the Critical skill, yes - and she can bolster this by standing next to Quan - but even with a Crit, she's generally not one-shotting foes in chapters 2 and 3 (unless you gave her, say, the Magic Ring). The best user of the Light Brand in combat (IMO) is a promoted Erinys (Pursuit, Adept, and Falcoknight promo bonuses), and by that point, Dew can be using the Thunder Sword or the Wind Sword.

Whew, that part got long. Anyway, I agree that the Light Brand is better for combat in hands other than Dew's - although I disagree whose hands those are. And with the notion that Ethlyn and Lachesis have a substantial need of field combat (but I suck at getting Lachesis promoted, so ignore me LOL). I personally think that the extra Steals that the Light Brand enables on Dew matter more than the extra damage from anyone else, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't thinking about giving it to... let's say, Alec, for my next playthrough.

[Dark Holy Elf]

52 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Alas, the words of someone who has never given Sanaki a blessed Bolting for floor 3 of the Tower.

I absolutely have blessed Bolting, yes! Even traded it around to get more use out of it. That's what I meant about it being a fun toy for one map. On every map Bolting is just the worst siege tome - the lowest power, all for +5 crit - but it's hilarious on 4-E-3. But I wouldn't argue it's worth the trouble to get.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I absolutely have blessed Bolting, yes! Even traded it around to get more use out of it. That's what I meant about it being a fun toy for one map. On every map Bolting is just the worst siege tome - the lowest power, all for +5 crit - but it's hilarious on 4-E-3. But I wouldn't argue it's worth the trouble to get.

13 might to only 6... OUCH. Bolting really got gutted in Radiant Dawn. For how much of a pain in the ass it is to get, you'd expect it to actually be good....

Edited March 29, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

13 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

13 might to only 6... OUCH. Bolting really got gutted in Radiant Dawn. For how much of a pain in the ass it is to get, you'd expect it to actually be good....

Radiant Dawn and "giving Thunder tomes tolerable stats", name a less iconic duo.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I absolutely have blessed Bolting, yes! Even traded it around to get more use out of it. That's what I meant about it being a fun toy for one map. On every map Bolting is just the worst siege tome - the lowest power, all for +5 crit - but it's hilarious on 4-E-3. But I wouldn't argue it's worth the trouble to get.

Oh, my mistake. In a practical sense I agree, but in a "stunt or die" sense...

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

13 might to only 6... OUCH. Bolting really got gutted in Radiant Dawn. For how much of a pain in the ass it is to get, you'd expect it to actually be good....

I honestly don't think it was even planned to be used in the players hands specifically because of Rebirth 3. Getting it requires a pretty strenuous stat benchmark for Heather. Or just getting a really lucky disarm thief combo in endgame 1. The game never gives you bolting and perliferates it so infrequently on the enemy and in difficult to reach positions that it's less a pain in the ass to get and more functionally impossible to get while existing in a system that does make it technically possible. In other words, I think it was designed to be enemy only, but they under estimated how much players are willing to go out of their way to get goodies they aren't meant to (and even then, I doubt most of us ever would have gotten it if that early part 3 mage didn't have Elthunder on them too to bait them into using for it to be stolen, even if it would still technically be possible via disarm).

[samthedigital]

Here are my rankings (relative to how necessary they feel to their respective games):

Top:
Radiant Dawn, Thracia

I'm not considering Lara's promotion; I feel that Thracia would top the tier lists if we did include it though. I feel that these are somewhat similar in that the units are invaluable for a period of time before dropping off completely. Perne has the combat to extend their life cycle in Thracia, but I don't find that it's enough to justify a tier difference. Sothe is the best combat unit for a short period of time whereas Lifis and Lara can steal random things while making Manster much more manageable by being capture bots.

High: Binding Blade, Blazing Blade

I would definitely choose Binding Blade over Blazing blades simply because thieves are relevant for longer and the value of gold is quantifiable. Generally speaking I find that thieves fall off after we get chest keys in FE7 outside of the random steal. It's similar in FE6, but random gems and the like are that much more important to steal in the game. FE7 is still here because of the promotion items that we can steal on top of the chests earlier on in the game. The silver card and such are decent enough too.

Mid: Genealogy

If I was including ranked runs this would be higher. As is transferring money between units is useful, but the better units don't really have problems with money in my experience anyway.. I don't know this game that well though, so maybe there is more use than I give them credit for.

Low: SS, Engage

There isn't really anything terribly useful to steal in Sacred Stones. Maybe I'd bump them up a tier if I could remember anything that Thieves get that's good early, but it's been too long since I've played. I'm not sure if Engage is a controversial choice or not, but Thieves are actually not so good in my opinion. Covert is only situationally useful, and they have 5 move, are dagger locked, the class base stats are bad, and anyone who starts as a Thief has to wait until level 21 to change into something else.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I'm not sure if Engage is a controversial choice or not, but Thieves are actually not so good in my opinion. Covert is only situationally useful, and they have 5 move, are dagger locked, the class base stats are bad, and anyone who starts as a Thief has to wait until level 21 to change into something else.

Yeah, but a lot of that is compensated by the fact that they can actually double things on Maddening.

[samthedigital]

52 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but a lot of that is compensated by the fact that they can actually double things on Maddening.

There are plenty of other classes that can also double without having the problems that I listed. Wolf Knight is better in just about every way outside of the covert tag and has the same base speed (not 100% sure on that at the moment, but it should be close) for a direct class comparison.

Edited March 30, 2023 by samthedigital

[ping]

3 hours ago, samthedigital said:

There isn't really anything terribly useful to steal in Sacred Stones. Maybe I'd bump them up a tier if I could remember anything that Thieves get that's good early, but it's been too long since I've played.

Chapter 7 Energy Ring is the biggest one, which is quite nice for Vanessa with her underwhelming base Str. Ephraim route also has a second Speed Wing stealable in chapter 13.

[samthedigital]

7 hours ago, ping said:

Chapter 7 Energy Ring is the biggest one, which is quite nice for Vanessa with her underwhelming base Str. Ephraim route also has a second Speed Wing stealable in chapter 13.

I'd potentially bump it up a tier then.

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Here are my rankings (relative to how necessary they feel to their respective games):

Top:
Radiant Dawn, Thracia

I'm not considering Lara's promotion; I feel that Thracia would top the tier lists if we did include it though. I feel that these are somewhat similar in that the units are invaluable for a period of time before dropping off completely. Perne has the combat to extend their life cycle in Thracia, but I don't find that it's enough to justify a tier difference. Sothe is the best combat unit for a short period of time whereas Lifis and Lara can steal random things while making Manster much more manageable by being capture bots.

High: Binding Blade, Blazing Blade

I would definitely choose Binding Blade over Blazing blades simply because thieves are relevant for longer and the value of gold is quantifiable. Generally speaking I find that thieves fall off after we get chest keys in FE7 outside of the random steal. It's similar in FE6, but random gems and the like are that much more important to steal in the game. FE7 is still here because of the promotion items that we can steal on top of the chests earlier on in the game. The silver card and such are decent enough too.

Mid: Genealogy

If I was including ranked runs this would be higher. As is transferring money between units is useful, but the better units don't really have problems with money in my experience anyway.. I don't know this game that well though, so maybe there is more use than I give them credit for.

Low: SS, Engage

There isn't really anything terribly useful to steal in Sacred Stones. Maybe I'd bump them up a tier if I could remember anything that Thieves get that's good early, but it's been too long since I've played. I'm not sure if Engage is a controversial choice or not, but Thieves are actually not so good in my opinion. Covert is only situationally useful, and they have 5 move, are dagger locked, the class base stats are bad, and anyone who starts as a Thief has to wait until level 21 to change into something else.

Personally, I'd have mentioned that thieves have extra vision in fog maps. Some of the fog maps in these games are horrible...

[samthedigital]

13 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I'd have mentioned that thieves have extra vision in fog maps. Some of the fog maps in these games are horrible...

If I'm being honest that and desert treasures escaped me when I wrote that; it's something that was a lot more important the first time I played compared to the countless replays where I have a better idea of where everything is. I don't think I mentioned desert items either which is potentially useful depending on the playthrough. I RNG abuse for that in the GBA games (and use Volke to get the boots in FE9, but I forgot to list FE9, and they aren't that useful in that game otherwise), but it might not always be applicable.

Edited March 30, 2023 by samthedigital

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It was mentioned previously in the Swordmaster thread, but it bears repeating here. GBA Thieves and Assassins receive more experience from battle (this is not the same as the player earning more experience from killing Enemy Thieves in many FE games). The exact amount can be hard to communicate, but here is the formula. Specific examples would be ideal, but If I had to put an estimate on it, I'd say thieves are getting about a third more exp than another class of equal level fighting the same enemy. FE7 and 8 also feature the Assassinate/Silencer skill which doubles experience if it procs.

It's not exactly Paragon, but setting up kills for thieves is tricky and dangerous, so it was thoughtful of them to increase the rewards for doing so. I bet they stopped because thieves in newer entries were not categorically worse than other classes at fighting. Or at least, I don't think that was the design intent.

[Eltosian Kadath]

14 hours ago, ping said:

since these are only buyable in Sands of Time's Secret Shop (...at the cost of a warp use, no less), this can be quite important.

I will note that the Member Card has to be stolen by a thief to even access that.
 

On 3/26/2023 at 11:58 PM, ping said:

In defence of Volke's small fee - thieves in previous games used lockpicks which you could sell for decent money, so they technically had a similar cost for opening a lock. GBAFE lockpicks have a value of 80 gold per use (so they sell for 40/use).

Honestly its more insulting than it is a serious concern.

 

[ping]

13 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I will note that the Member Card has to be stolen by a thief to even access that.

Good point. The Member Card has some nice perks before that, too, namely Physic and Killer weapons buyable on Dragon's Gate.

16 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Honestly its more insulting than it is a serious concern.

I actually don't mind it very much - it gives you the choice between the easier-to-use Volke who will take a couple bucks from you, or the more likely to die Sothe who comes without a monetary price. It's really a tiny thing, but isn't saving an inconsequential amount of useless gold by deliberately making the game harder on yourself what Fire Emblem is all about?

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/30/2023 at 2:21 PM, samthedigital said:

If I'm being honest that and desert treasures escaped me when I wrote that; it's something that was a lot more important the first time I played compared to the countless replays where I have a better idea of where everything is. I don't think I mentioned desert items either which is potentially useful depending on the playthrough. I RNG abuse for that in the GBA games (and use Volke to get the boots in FE9, but I forgot to list FE9, and they aren't that useful in that game otherwise), but it might not always be applicable.

You mentioned desert items, but it bears mentioning that Radiant Dawn takes this concept up to 11 by having like half the maps have hidden items. Also, re: Sacred Stones, it's worth noting that chest keys only have one use in that game. 

On 3/29/2023 at 10:01 PM, samthedigital said:

Generally speaking I find that thieves fall off after we get chest keys in FE7 outside of the random steal. It's similar in FE6

How many chest keys do you even get in Blazing Blade? Because you cannot buy them in any normal shops in the game, only in secret shops, and even then, only in Dragon's Gate and Kinship's Bond.

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

How many chest keys do you even get in Blazing Blade? Because you cannot buy them in any normal shops in the game, only in secret shops, and even then, only in Dragon's Gate and Kinship's Bond.

The ones that we can buy in the Dragon's Gate secret shop are the ones I was referring to. I just buy enough of them for what I need and don't use thieves from that point onwards to open chests.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

You mentioned desert items, but it bears mentioning that Radiant Dawn takes this concept up to 11 by having like half the maps have hidden items. Also, re: Sacred Stones, it's worth noting that chest keys only have one use in that game. 

Sacred Stones just doesn't have many useful items in chests. One or two chest keys are probably enough for most maps (if you know item locations) unless you're doing post-game stuff and want to buy stat boosters (then the money is more useful), and that way we can use a unit with good combat. At worst it's a convoy trip, but it's better than lugging a unit with less move along that isn't essential to the map's completion.

Edited April 1, 2023 by samthedigital

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

How many chest keys do you even get in Blazing Blade? Because you cannot buy them in any normal shops in the game, only in secret shops, and even then, only in Dragon's Gate and Kinship's Bond.

That don't require theft, not many, and it depends on the route. One thing to note is that the chest keys enemies get (and drop) only have one use, unlike the 5 use ones you can buy from the secret shop.

There are 4 that drop on Eliwood Normal mode, one in chapter 16, one in chapter 19, and two in chapter 25. There is 1 that drops in Eliwood Hard mode, in chapter 17. There are 7 that drop in Hector Normal mode, one in chapter 17, one in chapter 20, two in chapter 27, and three of the things in chapter 30. Hector Hard mode just has the three that drop in Hector's promotion chapter (chapter 30). Theoretically you could get the two that start in Legault's inventory on Hector Mode, but at least in Hector Hard Mode, it is basically impossible to recruit him before he uses them all up.

 

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

The ones that we can buy in the Dragon's Gate secret shop are the ones I was referring to. I just buy enough of them for what I need and don't use thieves from that point onwards to open chests.

Again I will note that you have to steal the member card that gives you access to the secret shops...

[samthedigital]

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Again I will note that you have to steal the member card that gives you access to the secret shops...

If I was going to point out every single detail I'd be here for ages; it doesn't change the fact that thieves are largely irrelevant for chest opening duties after the fact and my placement of FE7 thieves takes everything that they do into account.

Edited April 1, 2023 by samthedigital

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

The ones that we can buy in the Dragon's Gate secret shop are the ones I was referring to. I just buy enough of them for what I need and don't use thieves from that point onwards to open chests.

I don't see buying keys there as a good use of my cash, to be blunt. Not when Killer weapons are literally RIGHT THERE in that same shop, and the other has Physic, all of which would be much better uses of my cash than keys, which are too expensive for how little uses they have. And that's ignoring that the Member card needs to be stolen in the first place if you want in...

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Sacred Stones just doesn't have many useful items in chests. One or two chest keys are probably enough for most maps (if you know item locations) unless you're doing post-game stuff and want to buy stat boosters (then the money is more useful), and that way we can use a unit with good combat. At worst it's a convoy trip, but it's better than lugging a unit with less move along that isn't essential to the map's completion.

I'm not sure I'd agree here, either. You're just leaving money on the table.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Shadow Mir