So...let's talk tiers.

[Don Draper]

He'll be absolutely terrible as a Knight though. He'll have an E in Lances, and he'll have like...3 speed.

[Lord Raven]

You don't have to play with him for a long time. Just enough to get literally two level ups.

[Emperor Hardin]

Whys Athena so high? Hardain comes in at a lower level with nearly the same as bases as Athena, high weapon levels, great supports, and his growths beat her in everything but hp. Only advantage I see for her is the promotion gains from Dracoknight.

Also shouldn't Julian be higher due to the utility of thieves?

[Mekkah]

Julian was given some attention a few pages ago. The facts that there's nothing to steal, that you already have an infinite use Chest Key auto-fielded every chapter and that he doesn't promote greatly hurt his placement.

[Rodykitty]

and that he doesn't promote greatly hurt his placement.

Not really. Julian has extremely high growths for this reason so that his averages won't be gimped by lack of promotion bonuses.

The things that hurts him the most are poor base stats at the beginning.

[riariadne]

Except it's not, because he's not getting anything that actually benefits somebody else, and I've gone through EVERY SINGLE UNIT HE CAN POSSIBLY COMPETE with to prove this. Just like using spirit dusts on anybody not named Merric in H5 [since Merric is basically the only usable mage in H5] is a waste. Guys like the cavs will go from doubling everything on the map to doubling everything on the map. Guys like Roger and Jake will go from not doubling to not doubling. Nabarl is seriously the only one who makes any real use out of it.

Oh yeah, little trivia. Ogma barley starts out winning HP by the time the two promote. Nabarl's HUGE defense lead is worth far more. As time goes on, Nabarl also starts to close the gap in HP. Eventually, they tie, but Nabarl's huge defense lead causes him to win durability. And everything else, for that matter.

tldr; Ogma as Horseman sucks, and does nothing but allow Nabarl to own him even HARDER. That's out.

If thats not favoritism, and the way you say sheeda is low tier isn't anti-favoritism, then I could give CAPTAIN GORDON every stat booster in the entire game and make a tier list as biased as

FE11 normal mode tier list

Captain tier

CAPTAIN GORDON

Wtf Fail tier

Everyone else

or as stupid as

FE11 H5 mode tier list

god tier

Freyr

fail tier

everyone else

and not call it favoritism.

[Dat Nick]

Except other units would actually benefit from HP/Str/Def/Move boosters. NOBODY at that point is benefitting from a speed booster, either because it's overkill or isn't enough to make a difference on a unit with really low speed like Roger. You know on H5, where Merric has no competition for the spirit dusts, because...

A: He's the only mage worth a damn on H5

and

B: It's a total waste on everybody else

Similar logic. Nobody else is making any use out of that speedwing, since they're either already doubling or won't be doubling either with it, so it's a waste. Unless you're a captain Gordin fanboy, there is a grand total of zero people on the squad giving a damn that Nabarl got the speedwing.

It's only favoritism if ANOTHER UNIT WOULD ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROM THE ITEM SOMEBODY ELSE GOT. Nobody cares about the spirit dusts. Nobody cares about the Speedwing, at that point.

But the Horseman only has one less move.

It's still more move. 10 move>9 move. Nabarl wins move. Are you done with this?

Not when his HP is a lot higher.

Too bad it's NOT a lot higher as Horseman.

He switches to Horseman. 15 Speed.

ouch

Oh, and don't forget the loss of axes, and you've fucked over his HP and defense, and he's stuck on the WTD forever. Why? Just so Ogma could lose Move LESS than he did as Hero, and now Nabarl wins overall stats by quite a margain, INCLUDING MOVE, making the entire grounds for the switch in the first place fucking pointless. Oguma would rather be castrated than go Horseman.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

Except other units would actually benefit from HP/Str/Def/Move boosters. NOBODY at that point is benefitting from a speed booster, either because it's overkill or isn't enough to make a difference on a unit with really low speed like Roger. You know on H5, where Merric has no competition for the spirit dusts, because...

At that point is probably a key phrase.

You could save it for later when certain units are a couple points from doubling.

You could just use it then and allow units that you have already recruited to get closer to doubling, instead of shunning their doubling chances altogether.

This is bias towards Nabarl because he's a character that instantaneously (under your situations, anyway; which will not always be true, considering you didn't even give a statistical proof as to why each one wouldn't need it anyway, just words which I have little inclination to believe) would benefit only from that chapter. And because he's not the only one that's able to use it. I'm not arguing who makes use of it, I'm arguing who uses it.

A: He's the only mage worth a damn on H5

and

B: It's a total waste on everybody else

This shouldn't matter on a tier list, which is judging who is worth a damn and who is not. There is no pre-assumption when judging a tier list as to who is good as who is not. Post-assumption is when you can make that judgment; when the tier list is finalized. But there's no post-assumption here, since a tier list is never final.

Too bad it's NOT a lot higher as Horseman.

It makes up for the defense, though.

Oh, and don't forget the loss of axes, and you've fucked over his HP and defense, and he's stuck on the WTD forever. Why? Just so Ogma could lose Move LESS than he did as Hero, and now Nabarl wins overall stats by quite a margain, INCLUDING MOVE, making the entire grounds for the switch in the first place fucking pointless. Oguma would rather be castrated than go Horseman.

Quite a margin? This wasn't even refuted. It wasn't even much of a margin; it seemed pretty balanced to either side. Slight lead to Nabarl on second thought, but there's his way of getting move. Nabarl can't get much more Strength or HP, or Ogma's (however slight) win in availability. He can get a level or two's worth of EXP from that chapter being your strongest unit there.

Even with the Hero Ogma's offense is better, whereas it's on par as a Horseman. The only thing Nabarl has here, then, is move seeing as Hero Ogma leads a lot in HP and only loses 2 move as a Hero (which really isn't that significant).

Edited January 13, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The stat boosters thing is still favoritism though. Even if Merric is probably the best Magic user in H5, class swapped mages could still get some use out of some stat boosters. They're not exactly best on him all the time.

It's only favoritism if ANOTHER UNIT WOULD ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROM THE ITEM SOMEBODY ELSE GOT. Nobody cares about the spirit dusts. Nobody cares about the Speedwing, at that point.

Doubling earlier is a benefit, doing additional damage is a benefit, taking less damage is a benefit. Yes the benefits may be less for some units than it is for others but the fact is that there is still some benefit for each and every character.

Stat boosters should not play a role in the tier list. Let's not make it more complicated than it has to be.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Levin

[Dat Nick]

You could save it for later when certain units are a couple points from doubling.

Very few units NOT doubling are worth using. Then there's units like Captain Gordin who rely on the sniper promotion bonuses to double, in which giving him the wing would be a total waste.

onsidering you didn't even give a statistical proof as to why each one wouldn't need it anyway,

YES, I did. It's either overkill speed or it won't help units who won't double double. Now, is this was H5, where the speed boost might actually MATTER...

This shouldn't matter on a tier list, which is judging who is worth a damn and who is not.

There is a VERY large gap between worth a damn and unusable. Linde is even more useless on H5, Caesar is too much work to train, Nabarl doesn't have the speed, and don't get me started on Maji. There is NO pratical choice for a Mage outside of Merric. Zero exaggeration.

Also, it's fucking H5. You NEED to be worth a damn. Can't exactly get away with using guys like Vyland, now. Most units who could get the job done on NM are now bottom in H5. Radd, Linde, and Dolph were all moved down to bottom because it was far too much effort to keep them alive, and even if you could, they still sucked when leveled.

It makes up for the defense, though.

Okay, so Nabarl went from winning move to winning move AND durability. What has this accomplished for Oguma, again...?

Nabarl can't get much more Strength or HP

For the trillionth time, Horseman Ogma starts out barley ahead and they eventually tie. Strength is irrelevant at that point. In fact, don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure Nabarl's str is HIGHER than Horseman Oguma, since Horseman cuts his str.

class swapped mages could still get some use out of some stat boosters.

Call me when it actually gets to the point where using class swapped mages is worth it, since all of them are way too much trouble to train on H5.

Doubling earlier is a benefit,

But it doesn't help them double earlier. Armors are kind of like snipers in the fact that they get a hueg boost to AS on promotion.

Yes the benefits may be less for some units than it is for others

Sometimes nonexistant. Going from doubling everything on the map to doubling everything on the map provides no benefit for Marth.

taking less damage is a benefit

...If you were already getting doubled by NM enemies [The only circumstances that extra speed would help you take less damage], chances are you suck and need to get the hell out of my army.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

Very few units NOT doubling are worth using. Then there's units like Captain Gordin who rely on the sniper promotion bonuses to double, in which giving him the wing would be a total waste.

You're missing the point of judging a tier list.

YES, I did. It's either overkill speed or it won't help units who won't double double. Now, is this was H5, where the speed boost might actually MATTER...

And your statistics are...?

There is a VERY large gap between worth a damn and unusable. Linde is even more useless on H5, Caesar is too much work to train, Nabarl doesn't have the speed, and don't get me started on Maji. There is NO pratical choice for a Mage outside of Merric. Zero exaggeration.

And guess what? We're judging a tier list, we don't know who is worth a damn and unusable. That's exactly what we're discussing; to say anyone is worth a damn or usable as a pre-assumption for a tier list is totally missing the point.

Also, it's fucking H5. You NEED to be worth a damn. Can't exactly get away with using guys like Vyland, now. Most units who could get the job done on NM are now bottom in H5. Radd, Linde, and Dolph were all moved down to bottom because it was far too much effort to keep them alive, and even if you could, they still sucked when leveled.

They were moved down to Bottom due to their own faults. Marich is still not guaranteed the spirit dusts because we don't know who's "worth a damn" and who's "not" when judging it. Only after we've finished for the time being do we know, and discussions on the tier list assume we're still not sure, so in that case we can't say "x" is worth more of a damn than "y" because we're not sure as a result. There's no point to your own tier list other than to increase the size of your massive ego if you're going to be biased towards the upper tiered characters because they're worth a damn.

In an actual tournament-style debate, your argument would actually hold water because it requires bias towards the unit you're arguing; you're exactly trying to argue x is better than y as opposed to putting his name on a quality list, and the tier list is made and agreed upon when having done this. But we're not in an official debate like that; we're in a debate where we have to judge every single unit on exactly the same grounds and therefore, Merich is not the only one entitled to spirit dusts and Nabarl to speedwings. Others are equally entitled.

Okay, so Nabarl went from winning move to winning move AND durability. What has this accomplished for Oguma, again...?

Nabarl went from winning move by two to winning move by one. Going from an okay lead to a slight lead.

My next point refers to Nabarl having little way of closing their gaps in HP, because I was going for the fact that Ogma also has the Hero class available on top of other classes to give him even more HP! Same with Strength, Defense, etc. Ogma can close the gaps pretty damn well with a level up or two in different classes. Nabarl... can't.

For the trillionth time, Horseman Ogma starts out barley ahead and they eventually tie. Strength is irrelevant at that point. In fact, don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure Nabarl's str is HIGHER than Horseman Oguma, since Horseman cuts his str.

Only by one. Ogma has a level lead, so it's pretty much tied. Edited January 13, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Sylvan]

Shouldn't ougma get a rank boost simply because he comes with a merc slot?

[Mekkah]

You can kill off Oguma or never field him again and still have that Merc slot. All you have to do for it to be accessible is to recruit him (which is done automatically)...in fact, you wouldn't even have to do that for it to be there.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. Call me when it actually gets to the point where using class swapped mages is worth it, since all of them are way too much trouble to train on H5.

2. But it doesn't help them double earlier. Armors are kind of like snipers in the fact that they get a hueg boost to AS on promotion.

3. Sometimes nonexistant. Going from doubling everything on the map to doubling everything on the map provides no benefit for Marth.

4...If you were already getting doubled by NM enemies [The only circumstances that extra speed would help you take less damage], chances are you suck and need to get the hell out of my army.

1. Merrich is the better mage in H5, no doubt there (one major reason being that he can take an assualt hit from an brave weapon enemy). Does this mean that Mage Sheeda or Dark Mage Draug are unusable in H5? No, it doesn't. I've used Lena as a Mage and Sage for some combat so I know damn well that some class swapped mages who can actually double are usable. They get 1 rounded later but that doesn't mean that they aren't usable. There's also forging to help them out but I won't go there unless necessary.

2. +4 SPD for General promotion and +5 for Sniper promotion. Anyway, why doesn't it help them out earlier? You know as well as I do that it's often just 1 or 2 AS being the difference between the enemy getting doubled or not.

3. Valid example. Fact is that there's still benefits for others which I believe you should acknowledge since you said "Sometimes nonexistant".

4. Technically I was referring more to the Shield but if you want damage reduction due to speedwing then I guess the perfect example would be Horace so he doesn't get raped in H5 lategame.

I wasn't specifically talking about the Speedwing btw.

As for the whole Merc slot thing, NO BENEFIT/PENALTIES FOR IT. Mekkah's right, you could hack the game so that Ogma's a recruitable enemy or recruitable in the village (and not save it) and you're still getting that Merc slot.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Levin

[Mekkah]

It would be convenient if B2BD would update the OP with the revised tier list so I don't have to dig through the topic everytime.

[riariadne]

Very few units NOT doubling are worth using. Then there's units like Captain Gordin who rely on the sniper promotion bonuses to double, in which giving him the wing would be a total waste.

YES, I did. It's either overkill speed or it won't help units who won't double double. Now, if this was H5, where the speed boost might actually MATTER...

There is a VERY large gap between worth a damn and unusable. Linde is even more useless on H5, Caesar is too much work to train, Nabarl doesn't have the speed, and don't get me started on Maji. There is NO pratical choice for a Mage outside of Merric. Zero exaggeration.

Also, it's fucking H5. You NEED to be worth a damn. Can't exactly get away with using guys like Vyland, now. Most units who could get the job done on NM are now bottom in H5. Radd, Linde, and Dolph were all moved down to bottom because it was far too much effort to keep them alive, and even if you could, they still sucked when leveled.

Okay, so Nabarl went from winning move to winning move AND durability. What has this accomplished for Oguma, again...?

For the trillionth time, Horseman Ogma starts out barley ahead and they eventually tie. Strength is irrelevant at that point. In fact, don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure Nabarl's str is HIGHER than Horseman Oguma, since Horseman cuts his str.

Call me when it actually gets to the point where using class swapped mages is worth it, since all of them are way too much trouble to train on H5.

But it doesn't help them double earlier. Armors are kind of like snipers in the fact that they get a hueg boost to AS on promotion.

Sometimes nonexistant. Going from doubling everything on the map to doubling everything on the map provides no benefit for Marth.

...If you were already getting doubled by NM enemies [The only circumstances that extra speed would help you take less damage], chances are you suck and need to get the hell out of my army.

Contradiction much, pal? Yeah, that's what I thought.

[riariadne]

sorry double post

Edited January 13, 2009 by Reinfleche

[Clonez]

Make a H5 Tier list.

[Dat Nick]

You're missing the point of judging a tier list.

It's not wrong to assume Gordin won't be frequently played, because he WON'T be frequently played. Pratically any other filler in the game is better than him. Only people who want to challenge themselves are going to use him. Or the few Gordin fanboys who actually exist.

We're judging a tier list, we don't know who is worth a damn and unusable.

Of course we do. What do you think this list is for?

Marich is still not guaranteed the spirit dusts

If there was a USABLE mage choice outside of Merric, note how I say USABLE and not just worse than Merric, then yes, he wouldn't. A big gap is something like Ogma/Caesar or Altea cavs/Vyland. Linde is just unusable on H5, as is any other possible choice for a mage NOT named Merric. And I don't know how the hell "we don't know who's worth a damn and who's not" makes any goddamn sense at all.

Others are equally entitled.

Except nobody else gives a fuck about the speedwings, for reasons I've already stated a billion times, and on NM Merric has pratical competition, sure. ON H5, he doesn't.

Going from an okay lead to a slight lead.

But now Nabarl's not just winning move. Now he's winning speed, defense, AND he's not on the short end of the stick in the WTA department. What do we call this, class? A fucking waste. Oguma went from losing move to losing move...and every other possible statistic. Stop trying to sell this, it's not going to work.

Only by one. Ogma has a level lead, so it's pretty much tied.

Like I said, it's irrelevant anyway. And no, those were 20/1 stats. And going by this...Nabarl would actually have higher promotion priority than Ogma, due to him creaming Ogma in every possible way after 20/1 due to your BRILLIANT idea of making him lose stats even more with Horseman.

You know as well as I do that it's often just 1 or 2 AS being the difference between the enemy getting doubled or not.

Not when your AS is like, 10 at 20/0. At that point in the game, I doubt 12 is going to make you double. Especially when guys like Draug level up slower [Lower move, can't double a damn thing, won't two hit later due to craptacular strength], meaning they hit 20 later than others.

Technically I was referring more to the Shield

That's different, though. way different. Some units actually give a shit about the defense boost, providing you aren't Draug/Dolph/Zagaro or something like that. The main thing being that HP/Str/Def boosters actually help and extra speed doesn't when you already double everything, or won't double anything even with the damn thing.

Contradiction much, pal? Yeah, that's what I thought.

...Um....

I said that extra speed may actually matter on H5.

I said that Merric was the only mage worth a shit on H5.

....These two statements contradict each other....how?

Make a H5 Tier list.

Already did. Don't remember where I put it.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Not when your AS is like, 10 at 20/0. At that point in the game, I doubt 12 is going to make you double. Especially when guys like Draug level up slower [Lower move, can't double a damn thing, won't two hit later due to craptacular strength], meaning they hit 20 later than others.

A 10 SPD AK would go to 15 SPD as General. Speedwing would make him double most lategame units. But yeah, Speedwing isn't much in this game since it mostly works for AS and avoid is shit.

That's different, though. way different. Some units actually give a shit about the defense boost, providing you aren't Draug/Dolph/Zagaro or something like that. The main thing being that HP/Str/Def boosters actually help and extra speed doesn't when you already double everything, or won't double anything even with the damn thing.

Valid. When I talked about benefits of stat boosters, I wasn't talking about the Speedwing's alone and it was to counter your argument on favoritism.

Didn't that H5 tier list get purged?

[Rodykitty]

I can find the H5 tier list in this topic. This time though, the H5 tier list should be a separate topic to avoid issues with not being able to find it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I can find the H5 tier list in this topic. This time though, the H5 tier list should be a separate topic to avoid issues with not being able to find it.

Then post it and let's start working on it.

@BB: (like Mekkah said), You should edit the first post for any changes that occur so no1 has to dig around this thread for the tier list. It's easier on every1.

[Rodykitty]

I just PM'd BB an H5 tier list (which is probably outdated by now). I'm hoping he'll make the new topic (since he tends to be the one that makes edits).

EDIT: Went ahead and made the topic myself.

Edited January 14, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

It's not wrong to assume Gordin won't be frequently played, because he WON'T be frequently played. Pratically any other filler in the game is better than him. Only people who want to challenge themselves are going to use him. Or the few Gordin fanboys who actually exist.

Explain this statement's relevance to the tier list. How often they're being used != whatever argument you have for or against his, or anyone's, tier list position.

Of course we do. What do you think this list is for?

Except, we don't know when we're judging it. We're judging it now, aren't we? Nothing is sure, that's why it's an open debate. If it wasn't an open debate, you'd just be like "here's the official tier list, let's not discuss it and just bask in all its glory!" instead of "here's a tier list, see what's wrong where you see fit." The latter implies that nothing is certain about the tier list, therefore another unit's position should and will have nothing to do with one unit's position. Which is why punishing Karel solely for missing out on Harken is fallacy.

And I don't know how the hell "we don't know who's worth a damn and who's not" makes any goddamn sense at all.

If we did know, we'd be having a debate tournament on the tier list. But we don't know because we're debating the tier list right now, where anything's subject to debate. I'm having a hard time getting this point across (others can confirm this if they want), but it's valid once it does.

But now Nabarl's not just winning move. Now he's winning speed, defense, AND he's not on the short end of the stick in the WTA department. What do we call this, class? A fucking waste. Oguma went from losing move to losing move...and every other possible statistic. Stop trying to sell this, it's not going to work.

Nabarl's losing Speed, tied with Defense and Strength (4 HP vs about two defense seems pretty balanced). He went from losing move somewhat to losing move slightly. I'm not saying it's the best possible option, I'm just saying that it closes the Speed gap.

Like I said, it's irrelevant anyway. And no, those were 20/1 stats. And going by this...Nabarl would actually have higher promotion priority than Ogma, due to him creaming Ogma in every possible way after 20/1 due to your BRILLIANT idea of making him lose stats even more with Horseman.

Ogma has higher promotion priority because he has a level lead, thus reaching Level 20 earlier (with better offense), if anything. But that has nothing to do with what we're arguing, since there's no such thing as a "promotion priority" until we host a debate tournament.

Not when your AS is like, 10 at 20/0. At that point in the game, I doubt 12 is going to make you double. Especially when guys like Draug level up slower [Lower move, can't double a damn thing, won't two hit later due to craptacular strength], meaning they hit 20 later than others.

I asked specifically for statistics. If you've supposedly already said it, then copy+paste it; it really isn't a big deal. If you haven't, then you should go ahead and do it.

For the record, you don't need to waste your stat boosters as soon as you possibly can. I'm not sure how you'll respond to this, but you really don't.

I just PM'd BB an H5 tier list (which is probably outdated by now). I'm hoping he'll make the new topic (since he tends to be the one that makes edits).

I'd prefer you do it, I trust you more with it. Edited January 14, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

How often they're being used != whatever argument you have for or against his, or anyone's, tier list position.

The better you are, the more often you're being played. That's just how it works. 95% of the time, people are going to use people like Cord or Caesar as fillers instead of Gordin, and people are more likley to choose Cain/Abel/Frey over Vyland, Roshea, and Hardin.

Nothing is sure

Except for what is already sure, i.e, Gordin sucking, Zagaro/Merric/Xane owning, Est failing, etc

Nabarl's losing Speed

Irrelevant since he's doubling by now.

(4 HP vs about two defense seems pretty balanced)

try 3 defense, since Ogma is always stuck on the wrong end of the WT now, and Nabarl's durability lead is only going to increase

since there's no such thing as a "promotion priority"

Wrong. It's existed since the days of FE7, and it still exists now, only now it's even worse since everybody's taking the same promotion item. Better units promote sooner, that would be obvious.

Of course, if you have a problem with this, then argue Oswin down to Kent and Sain's tier, and then we'll talk.

I asked specifically for statistics.

And I already gave you a complete list of every unit who's not benefitting from it, all the way up to C10.

but you really don't.

Cept that my point still stands: It helps nobody with overkill AS and helps nobody with sucky AS.

A 10 SPD AK would go to 15 SPD as General.

14

and that's without the wing

and that's probably enough to double, providing Draug didn't promote TOO late

therefore another unit's position should and will have nothing to do with one unit's position.

There's about a bazillion examples on the various other tier lists that say this statement is bullshit, and they expand beyond Karel/Harken.

Such as, but not limited to, the knight crest predicament in FE7, the hero crest predicament in FE6, and archers in general failing because they bog down your other units.

Until you manage to make it so every other tier list fixes these errors, I see no reason to comply.