So...let's talk tiers.

[Lord Raven]

The better you are, the more often you're being played. That's just how it works. 95% of the time, people are going to use people like Cord or Caesar as fillers instead of Gordin, and people are more likley to choose Cain/Abel/Frey over Vyland, Roshea, and Hardin.

Once again, we're not in a tournament debate. This is irrelevant.

Except for what is already sure, i.e, Gordin sucking, Zagaro/Merric/Xane owning, Est failing, etc

That's actually apart of the "unsure" on a tier list. A unit's position is never, ever set in stone which is why we're debating the tier list in the first place. Which is why comparisons can't even be made in the first place.

try 3 defense, since Ogma is always stuck on the wrong end of the WT now, and Nabarl's durability lead is only going to increase

After promotion Ogma can be stuck on the right end of WTA. Nabarl's never in advantage.

Wrong. It's existed since the days of FE7, and it still exists now, only now it's even worse since everybody's taking the same promotion item. Better units promote sooner, that would be obvious.

Of course, if you have a problem with this, then argue Oswin down to Kent and Sain's tier, and then we'll talk.

Not when it comes to ranking tier lists. Everyone has the same priority when it comes to promotion, everyone is equally penalized for taking away a promotion item from another unit on a tier list. On a tier list. It's double standard to assume otherwise.

I've yet to see a non-HHM tier list discussion on this board anyway to even see that argument. And FESS' tier list didn't really penalize Kent/Sain/Lowen at all for Knight's Crest predicament, from what I recall. (Well, quanta and the rest of us were relatively new on debating so that's pretty much understandable).

And I already gave you a complete list of every unit who's not benefitting from it, all the way up to C10.

Then re-paste it.

(As far as I'm aware, you just gave words like "this unit sucks anyway" vs "this unit's speed sucks"; you never showed why the unit's speed sucks).

Such as, but not limited to, the knight crest predicament in FE7, the hero crest predicament in FE6, and archers in general failing because they bog down your other units.

Knight Crest predicament: Everyone competes for the Knight Crest. Just because a unit is better doesn't make him more entitled to it. So you punish the Knight Crest users equally because everyone has to compete.

Hero Crest is the same deal.

Archers don't fail because they bog down other units (the fact that they can't get counter attacked is actually a boon considering how it can weaken enemies), but they don't have the capabilities to attack on enemy phase which hinder their own performance. They, as a result, will get very few kills and not level up all that consistently especially since a majority of the enemies will sport good defense. It doesn't bog down your own team; assuming non-favoritism towards the Archer, the Archer just, in general, ends up pretty mediocre.

Unless we're talking Shinon, who can kill pretty damn well (also has Crossbows and a Double Bow for the final chapter). But this isn't FE10.

Until you manage to make it so every other tier list fixes these errors, I see no reason to comply.

Or you can set the example instead of following a fallacy, lol

How erroneous everything else is... is a pitiful excuse for how erroneous one's own judgment is.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Emperor Hardin]

On the topic of Athena, why is she so high?

[Dat Nick]

Once again, we're not in a tournament debate.

No, tournament debate or no tournament debate, that's how it works. That's how it's always worked.

That's actually apart of the "unsure" on a tier list.

Wrong AGAIN. The best argument in the world isn't going to change facts that we already know to be facts. Gordin has been proven inferior. Zagaro has been proven superior. Est has been proven a tier worse than Tomas. Athena has been proven>Catria, and all of the Altea cavs are better than Roshea, and you've got something wrong with you if you somehow think hard proven facts are going to magically collapse for no reason. There's a difference between what we THINK and what we KNOW. Example, we think that Caesar could>Palla for existing more often, cancelling out her move and stat advantage lategame. What we KNOW is that Zagaro is one of the best characters in the game, he wants the Hero class, Gordin sucks compared to 80% of the cast, and Est sucks even when levelled. These. Are. PROVEN, so stop trying to think they're "unsure" just because the tier list is always open to change.

Not when it comes to ranking tier lists.

Um, yes, EXACTLY when it comes to ranking tier lists. Kent and Sain would be much higher up if they didn't have that whole Knight Crest thing going on, and Marcus would skyrocket down [because Kent/Sain/Lowen could play Jeigan in his place, only better]

Of course, since we're all forced to think your way about tier lists, I assume arguing Oswin down to Upper Middle will prove no problem for you. As said, call me when you do it, THEN we'll discuss this idea of yours.

Everyone has the same priority when it comes to promotion

Wrong again. Better units promote first, because that's the way it's worked since FE6. And FE7. And FE8, if promotion times were ever actually an issue.

After promotion Ogma can be stuck on the right end of WTA.

not as horseman, he's not

everyone is equally penalized for taking away a promotion item from another unit on a tier list.

Again, I'm not buying one lick of this until you successfully manage to right every wrong I have stated.

(As far as I'm aware, you just gave words like "this unit sucks anyway"

no

I said it's just making unit A overkill, and that it won't save unit B.

...Do I really have to say why unit B sucks? Are you THAT fucking lazy? Fine, here.

Draug at lvl 8: 5.8 AS

8 AS isn't doubling crap. It does nothing for him.

So you punish the Knight Crest users equally because everyone has to compete.

Funny, Oswin being a tier above Kent, Sain, and Lowen, and Kent, Sain, and Lowen being below Marcus because of late promotion time says you're full of shit. Of course, if you'd like to actually prove that wrong by making them all on the same tier, I'm waaaaiiittiiiing.

Archers don't fail because they bog down other units

That's a large part of it.

It doesn't bog down your own team

Yes, it does, since Archer needs to be constantly fenced in so he doesn't get raped.

How erroneous everything else is... is a pitiful excuse for how erroneous one's own judgment is.

If it bothers you so much, then go on and unprove what's already been pretty much proven. Until then, your argument holds no water. But hell, since you seem so sure of yourself that this is fact, this isn't much to ask at all, is it?

[Mekkah]

On this whole Knight Crest/Master Seal thing goin' on:

Say I am arguing Sain > Lowen. I can't go "Sain is getting a Knight Crest before Lowen, because Lowen sucks" and then proceed to compare promoted Sain to unpromoted Lowen. To prove unit A > unit B, I must give them both the same amount of beneficial treatment of any kind, assuming it is reasonable to believe they will be receiving treatment to begin with (but they will be in the case of a Knight Crest, but likely not, say, Speedwings). Then I objectively compare them.

If Sain's promo _gains_ were a lot higher, I would still have to compare promoted Sain to promoted Lowen to show this makes a difference.

However, if I am arguing Erk > Lowen, I can rightfully go "Erk promotes earlier than Lowen, due to lots of other Knight Cresters wanting Lowen's, and there is no real reason he is getting the first one due to blahblah level lead of Oswin". Plus, if the Erk side can prove Kent and Sain > Lowen after promoting, he could argue that you will want the best units to promote earlier to be able to use them while still gaining EXP for EXP rank. No real other reason, since a Knight Crest improves all of their performances by an equal amount (set promo bonuses + axes).

I would say the same pretty much goes for FEDS, minus EXP rank.

[Lord Raven]

I give up on getting my point across; it's not that I feel you're thick, but I think the wording is poor on top of not even getting what I'm trying to argue and why. Because I don't feel that using who's best as its own point is relevant unless you're debating outside the tier list discussion... rather than the tier list discussion itself. It's also me trying to get points across as if it were HM or something instead of NM... clearly the "NM enemies are made of paper" point comes back to bite me in the ass. In which case I'd definitely value Ogma's availability over a couple points in defense. Made of paper also attacks like paper which should render the lead in defense insignificant, so Ogma should pretty much be cool.

Mekkah really covered about 70% of my argument well. I feel Gordin's needing it should be a factor for Nabarl, but "growing out of low AS" also applies to Nabarl as a Cavalier (which I believe you used in Caesar's case) which is a few things other things I'd like to point out. But there's one thing I don't quite agree with here either;

However, if I am arguing Erk > Lowen, I can rightfully go "Erk promotes earlier than Lowen, due to lots of other Knight Cresters wanting Lowen's, and there is no real reason he is getting the first one due to blahblah level lead of Oswin". Plus, if the Erk side can prove Kent and Sain > Lowen after promoting, he could argue that you will want the best units to promote earlier to be able to use them while still gaining EXP for EXP rank. No real other reason, since a Knight Crest improves all of their performances by an equal amount (set promo bonuses + axes).

If a character who is better than Erk after promotion is in a supposed priority level 3 in a game with 2 of their promotion item, he should still be guaranteed a slot above Erk. Obviously, if the lead as a promoted unit is slight then I'd place Erk due to the penalty of using one of the two Knight's Crest, but if it's more than slight (I'd say something like gaining E Axes after promotion, on top of having a powerful, fast support with another unit) then I'd definitely place that person above Erk. Which is what I'm trying to say.

Finally,

Yes, it does, since Archer needs to be constantly fenced in so he doesn't get raped.

Doesn't this apply to every single magic and healing unit? And there I see Merric in top tier because of his capabilities as both.

It's not that they do need to be constantly fenced (low defense is why anyone would need to be constantly fenced [in which case that's not only a case to case basis, but an individual flaw all the same]; not saying any of them have particularly high defense stats but...) it's that they don't gain the EXP to keep up. It's not that big a problem in FE DS where there's not much EXP to distribute to that many units anyway, but it can still become a problem.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

Archers tend to have enough durability to be able to take hits and survive. Hunters aren't as defensive as Archers, though.

[Dat Nick]

Sain is getting a Knight Crest before Lowen, because Lowen sucks

But Lowen doesn't suck, IIRC he's better than kent and sain.

I was moreso referring to Oswin.

In which case I'd definitely value Ogma's availability over a couple points in defense.

except it's not a couple points of defense

It's a 4 def lead that keeps increasing over time, and a move lead

Made of paper also attacks like paper which should render the lead in defense insignificant

so?

more move and dying in less hits>>>>>less move and dying in more hits

I feel Gordin's needing it should be a factor for Nabarl

except it shouldn't, because Gordin won't be played often at all

(which I believe you used in Caesar's case)

...What? Not even. Caesar only has AS issues if he has the steel sword, and even then, any problems he might have had are gone after like, two levels

Doesn't this apply to every single magic and healing unit? And there I see Merric in top tier because of his capabilities as both.

Merric can actually take hits

...and counter at ranged, something every archer not named Shinon can't do. Hence why they are fenced in.

No, Gordin wouldn't really be a good example of this, but, someone like, say, Rebecca or Rolf...

[dondon151]

The better you are, the more often you're being played. That's just how it works. 95% of the time, people are going to use people like Cord or Caesar as fillers instead of Gordin, and people are more likley to choose Cain/Abel/Frey over Vyland, Roshea, and Hardin.

This argument is valid when discussing the unit's impact on other units (i.e. supports), but you can't say that x unit will never get an item because x unit is at the bottom of a tier list. That's like saying that bottom tier is bottom tier because of bottom tier.

But Lowen doesn't suck, IIRC he's better than kent and sain.

I don't think so. He's better if you forego Lyn Mode with a definite level lead, but all he has over them normally is a few chapters of availability. Kent and Sain have more viable and faster supports, eking out offense over Lowen while Lowen is generally better defensively, but past a certain point in the game that advantage starts to not matter.

[Dat Nick]

but you can't say that x unit will never get an item because x unit is at the bottom of a tier list.

He can't get it if it's not being played.

[Lord Raven]

Screw this, I disagree with you way too much.

I was moreso referring to Oswin.

It was hypothetical.

except it's not a couple points of defense

It's a 4 def lead that keeps increasing over time, and a move lead

At base level it's a 3 defense lead based on the same growth using Cavalier vs Merc.

Ogma can adjust his Defense stat to be higher, too.

And after promotion? It's a lead of two def (not assuming Knight was used as a class change at all!) vs an HP lead. In fact, since you're so adamant about the WTA, it's a 1 def lead because he can now use Axes as a Hero vs Nabarl, who is still stuck with Lances. On top of an HP lead (he even gets more on promotion).

Screw the Horseman argument for move, it's only two more for Nabarl than it is for Ogma. It's not THAT significant, not to the point where he's getting raped (he has more movement than most of your units anyhow, whereas Ogma is on par or higher), but he still won't be using all of it. Easy game or not, it's tough to survive getting ganged up because 13 Def/39 HP (vs 11 Def/44 HP/WTA at this point) is still somewhat shaky.

more move and dying in less hits>>>>>less move and dying in more hits

Read above. Only before promotion does this hold water. After promotion, Ogma is winning durability.

except it shouldn't, because Gordin won't be played often at all

Everyone deserves fair treatment for something they both make use of. Just because they're bottom tier doesn't change around the competition.

...What? Not even. Caesar only has AS issues if he has the steel sword, and even then, any problems he might have had are gone after like, two levels

Nabarl's problems are gone after two or three levels as well. Why can't you wait it out for Nabarl too?

Merric can actually take hits

Not well. It's still shaky. Defense in this game in general is shaky unless you're like Sedgar or Wolf.

...and counter at ranged, something every archer not named Shinon can't do. Hence why they are fenced in.

Every archer can counter at range lol

No, Gordin wouldn't really be a good example of this, but, someone like, say, Rebecca or Rolf...

Yeah, that's why it's case by case and not a generalization.

He can't get it if it's not being played.

Being played is a player choice, not a pre-assumed tier list choice. Edited January 17, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

Just drop Navarre's position if you must. It's not like he'll go down very far. I too agree that he doesn't have a monopoly on speed wing, but for RNG reasons.

Any character should be penalized for needing a stat boosting item to function as well as another character. Both Gordin and Navarre are hit by this.

[Lord Raven]

I'm arguing Ogma > Nabarl, I actually don't mind him being that high. Just not above Ogma.

[Dat Nick]

At base level it's a 3 defense lead based on the same growth using Cavalier vs Merc.

4

Since Oguma is locked to the WTD

Screw the Horseman argument for move, it's only two more for Nabarl than it is for Ogma.

...And he's still losing move, only now he's losing durability, too. Swapping Ogma to Horseman has done nothing to screw him over. Please stop trying to shimmy around this.

It's not THAT significant, not to the point where he's getting raped

so what

Nabarl has MORE move, and he gets raped much less. How can Ogma possibly>Nabarl in this state? Bows?

After promotion, Ogma is winning durability.

sorry, but 2 HP does not>4 def

and both of those numbers keep increasing

Just because they're bottom tier doesn't change around the competition.

Yes, it DOES, because said units are damn near never getting played.

Not well. It's still shaky.

beats the shit out of no counter, and in Rebecca and Rolf's case, dying in about the same number of hits

Being played is a player choice, not a pre-assumed tier list choice.

...there is a very, very, large gap between "Usable", "Barely so", and "outright fail". If this was, I don't know, Cord we were talking about, yes, fair game since he actually has a reason to be played now and again. Gordin, no, because Gordin doesn't just fail to everybody else, he fails period, which is visible to anybody with more than half a brain, and will RARELY be played, ever. If he's not getting played, he doesn't compete for stat items. That's how it's always worked, because it's pretty much common sense guys like Dieck will be played FAR more often than guys like Wendy, Noah, Bors, Wolt, and whatnot. It's always worked like this, and if you don't like it or agree with it, tough shit. If I was running this show, Catria would be above Athena, but I know damn well there's no viable argument to actually prove it.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Why not remove the stat boosters from the tier list talk? >_>

[Rodykitty]

Because then Navarre will drop down a tier slot. >_>

[Lord Raven]

Sir, I'm not even denying that Cav Nabarl is better than Ogma before promotion.

However, I'll say this;

- Ogma exists for one more chapter.

- Ogma's offense is better when their existence coincides, which is the chapter right after you recruit Ogma. Merc Ogma > Myrmidon Nabarl, for many reasons in that chapter. Next chapter is when he can reclass, though. Read next bullet.

- Until Nabarl gets 9 Spd (which is like chapter 10 or 11 or something), Ogma's offense beats Nabarl's.

- Ogma's durability is win against Nabarl's after promotion; Ogma has one less defense with axes. With a bunch more HP.

- Ogma can afford more to go out in a group, Nabarl can't as much. Neither will be going out all by themselves, because this is FE DS where nothing can evade, and they can still get pretty easily killed when ganged up on. I'm saying that 2 move is the only advantage here, and it's a slight advantage at best because Ogma is infinitely winning after promotion.

...And he's still losing move, only now he's losing durability, too. Swapping Ogma to Horseman has done nothing to screw him over. Please stop trying to shimmy around this.

What am I shimmying around? I said that the Horseman argument I revoked myself, because Ogma is better as a Hero so screw the Horseman class, I'm not using it as an argument anymore. I'm assuming Merc -> Hero Ogma now.

Nabarl has MORE move, and he gets raped much less. How can Ogma possibly>Nabarl in this state? Bows?

The hell? Hero Ogma gains 2 Defense upon promotion - Nabarl gains 1. So the number gap [NOTE, NUMBER, NO WTA FACTORING] goes from three to two - then you have WTA on Ogma's favor, in which case Ogma officially wins due to a lot more HP.

and both of those numbers keep increasing

Ogma can adjust his increase for the better. Nabarl can adjust it, but it gets worse.

The gap doesn't change - they both have 20% defense growth as a Hero vs a Paladin which equates to them having the same damn defense growth. And Ogma wins HP by a lot.

Yes, it DOES, because said units are damn near never getting played.

You can't say this until you finish the tier list.

beats the shit out of no counter, and in Rebecca and Rolf's case, dying in about the same number of hits

Nabarl and Ogma both have shaky defense, so do Merric. We're playing FE DS, everyone's defense is shaky save a select few, even on Normal Mode.

...there is a very, very, large gap between "Usable", "Barely so", and "outright fail". If this was, I don't know, Cord we were talking about, yes, fair game since he actually has a reason to be played now and again. Gordin, no, because Gordin doesn't just fail to everybody else, he fails period, which is visible to anybody with more than half a brain, and will RARELY be played, ever. If he's not getting played, he doesn't compete for stat items. That's how it's always worked, because it's pretty much common sense guys like Dieck will be played FAR more often than guys like Wendy, Noah, Bors, Wolt, and whatnot. It's always worked like this, and if you don't like it or agree with it, tough shit. If I was running this show, Catria would be above Athena, but I know damn well there's no viable argument to actually prove it.

If he's not getting played, then the player doesn't like him for whatever reason. I wouldn't play Gordon either but it doesn't have anything to do with the tier list (ie, the OBJECTIVE) view of where Gordon should exist, who's competing for a speedwing etc. If everyone had stellar speed and Nabarl just needed that speedwing to double, then sure; at the same time, if everyone had 1 speed and Nabarl had the right amount for the speedwing, then yes Nabarl wins. But nabarl has competition because Gordin needs to make use of it; just because he is lower on a tier list means little on his ability to get it.

I myself never play using Nabarl, so my Speedwing often goes to anyone who was Speed screwed. Gordon isn't being played either; in this instance, neither are getting the damn speedwing you're arguing for someone with. So neither are being played, so neither are getting a Speedwing in my case.

Common sense should mean nothing when it comes to objectivity, because common sense is subjective to begin with. So don't throw this "common sense" bullshit at me.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Sir, I'm not even denying that Cav Nabarl is better than Ogma before promotion.

try after

What am I shimmying around? I said that the Horseman argument I revoked myself, because Ogma is better as a Hero so screw the Horseman class, I'm not using it as an argument anymore. I'm assuming Merc -> Hero Ogma now.

Well mother of fuck, you could have said that 10 pages ago and been done with it already instead of trying to argue less move and worse stats>more move and better stats >_>

If he's not getting played, then the player doesn't like him for whatever reason.

Precisely. There's a lot not to like about Gordin. Practically anybody else can take his place as a cheap filler. Henceforth, players will elect NOT to pick him more often than not. Yes, it is a matter of choice, and most of the time, players will not choose Gordin over blatantly superior units.

ut nabarl has competition because Gordin needs to make use of it;

of course he doesn't. What matter is it that Gordin has doubling issues if he's not being used?

so neither are getting a Speedwing in my case.

What do you want, a cookie? A medal? A medal that looks like a cookie? ....A cookie that looks like a medal?

So don't throw this "common sense" bullshit at me.

Between Cain and Gordin, no, better yet, Merric and Est, which do you think the common player is MORE likely to want on their team? It's not exactly rocket science.

[Mekkah]

I'm assuming Merc -> Hero Ogma now.

Then Oguma is taking up one of your Merc slots, which can be argued as as bad if not worse than using one Speedwing.

[Dat Nick]

I doubt it'll be as much of an issue when Ogma actually promotes.

[Lord Raven]

Ignore like a million of my points why don't you? You didn't even counter my point that both Caesar and Nabarl could use a couple level ups to rectify their doubling issues, not just Caesar.

Mekkah - the only people that debatably get helped by the Merc class are like Darros and Bord (whichever one the REALLY slow one is). In which case, he's competing against two others for one out of two Hero slots. Then you get a third Hero slot which Caesar could need, and he comes with it.

Nabarl is competing against Caesar and Gordin for a Speedwing, as well.

It's pretty much the same point. Nabarl needs Speedwing to be good, Ogma needs Merc to be good (not necessarily, but..) It's a point against both. Ogma has little competition with those who "need" it, for both Merc slots.

The Horseman thing, I decided to revoke because you did prove me wrong. He's not getting raped but his stats do get lower.

try after

You didn't even refute my proof that stated specifically why Hero Ogma > Paladin Nabarl. Back up your claim instead of using this.

I even proved that Ogma is doing better until Nabarl gets 9 Speed and the speedwing. That's another four or five chapters of ownage, then Nabarl is ahead until promotion. Ogma promotes a little sooner due to level, but it's around the same time; then Ogma takes the lead. I even showed the statistics behind my proof in the previous couple posts.

Precisely. There's a lot not to like about Gordin. Practically anybody else can take his place as a cheap filler. Henceforth, players will elect NOT to pick him more often than not. Yes, it is a matter of choice, and most of the time, players will not choose Gordin over blatantly superior units.

I'd pick Gordin over Nabarl any day, myself. In fact I'd probably find myself using Gordin sooner than 70% of the units in the game (including Nabarl) because he comes early and stuff and my team's pretty well established when the others come. It's a personal pick who's being used, it's never determined by the tier list.

And... I'll say this point a million times more, you can't and haven't quantified how often Gordin's being used. You should fully quantify it by going through every single person (or most people) who have owned the game before you say that Gordin is never played.

of course he doesn't. What matter is it that Gordin has doubling issues if he's not being used?

Because if they are both to become valid candidates.

What do you want, a cookie? A medal? A medal that looks like a cookie? ....A cookie that looks like a medal?

Great argument. My argument refutes your point because it shows a case in which neither are getting fielded, so my job is done.

Between Cain and Gordin, no, better yet, Merric and Est, which do you think the common player is MORE likely to want on their team? It's not exactly rocket science.

Est, and you know why? Those noobs that believe in the Est archetype being good characters. Edited January 19, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Ignore like a million of my points why don't you? You didn't even counter my point that both Caesar and Nabarl could use a couple level ups to rectify their doubling issues, not just Caesar.

because it's very poorly thought out

1: Nabarl's AS needs are a bit more than that, and two: Caesar ONLY has double issues with the steel sword at jointime, which he doesn't even need that much. He just trains with iron until he can double.

Mekkah - the only people that debatably get helped by the Merc class are like Darros and Bord

and barst

and sedgar

and wolf

Nabarl is competing against Caesar and Gordin for a Speedwing, as well.

What? No he's not. For the billionth time: CAESAR ONLY HAS DOUBLING ISSUES WITH THE STEEL SWORD AT JOINTIME. Once he gets 8 strength he doesn't care anymore. He'll have 8 strength by chapter 10.

You didn't even refute my proof that stated specifically why Hero Ogma > Paladin Nabarl. Back up your claim instead of using this.

I didn't refute it, because I thought you were still trying to argue Horseman

It's a personal pick who's being used,

Exactly.

And how often are people PERSONALLY going to pick Gordin over basically every other unit in the game? Similarly, how often are people going to choose good units over bad ones? It's seriously not rocket science: Hence, good units will be played more often than bad ones. It's alarmingly easy to understand.

you can't and haven't quantified how often Gordin's being used.

4 base speed.

...Yes, I can. How many people are going to just look at that and throw him away? Quite often. Characters like Gordin aren't played often no matter how you want to keep running around it.

ou should fully quantify it by going through every single person (or most people

Do you enjoy being stupid or what?

Basically everybody on gameFAQS hates his guts.

It's pretty much a universally known fact that he sucks.

His base stats are so disgusting, that if they don't turn off a player, his ability to rarely get good statups likley will.

How ignorant can you be? It's clear as hell Gordin's not exactly a very popular character. And with damned good reason. So please don't try to BS your way out of this one. Also, I never fucking said he was NEVER played. I said RARELY.

Est, and you know why? Those noobs that believe in the Est archetype being good characters.

Not even a noob is stupid enough to throw away a 20/12 mage with excellent stats in favor of Est.

[Lord Raven]

because it's very poorly thought out

What is your proof behind my "poorly" thought out points? Why is it poorly thought out? If it's so "poorly thought out" surely it'd be easy to refute? And surely you can't refute it now because it takes into account your speedwing boost + it pretty much proves why Ogma>Nabarl?

1: Nabarl's AS needs are a bit more than that

? Huh?

I was referring to 9 Speed, 11 after Speedwing by the way.

I see the thing about Caesar now. Why bring up base level Caesar anyway, when something like "his problems no longer exist at this point" could've fit pretty well <_<

and barst

and sedgar

and wolf

They don't "need" it. Barst is fine with Fighter, he can easily get level ups against Axe users the moment he comes in, with an Iron or steel axe because he does massive damage and doubles.

(Wouldn't Barst be worse as a Merc? He'll grow poor Strength and lose Axes, even though he's ALREADY secure about doubling).

Sedgar and Wolf are amazing no matter what class they are. Warrior, Berserker, etc are all cool classes for them, they don't "need" Hero. The jumpstart problem exists even as Heroes, too.

And how often are people PERSONALLY going to pick Gordin over basically every other unit in the game? Similarly, how often are people going to choose good units over bad ones? It's seriously not rocket science: Hence, good units will be played more often than bad ones. It's alarmingly easy to understand.

How am I supposed to know? I don't know everyone who's played this game.

4 base speed.

wtf does this have to do with my point?

...Yes, I can. How many people are going to just look at that and throw him away? Quite often. Characters like Gordin aren't played often no matter how you want to keep running around it.

Yet... you have no clue if this is true. You're also a hypocrite for saying this, because later on you mention how he's "rarely" being played vs "never" being played.

Do you enjoy being stupid or what?

I'm not the one being stupid when I'm not making claims that aren't backed up.

Basically everybody on gameFAQS hates his guts.

GameFAQs != everyone ever.

It's pretty much a universally known fact that he sucks.

A tier list on a fairly small forum != universally known.

Tier lists are backed up with facts. Gordin needing the Speedwing by Chapter 10 is a fact, Nabarl needing it by then (as a Cav) is also a fact. Gordin not being played is not a fact, it's a preference. Everyone has different preferences. Therefore to soothe the bias, if you're going to compare everyone who's competing for the Speedwing to rectify his speed loss, you can't take into account quality because "x isn't being used" is a form of bias, which goes away from the objectivity a tier list is supposed to bring.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

I still think that stat boosting items is causing complications. They need to be treated like weapons would. I think that wanting the speed wing is a disadvantage.

Edited January 19, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Sylvan]

If Nabarl want's speedwings, he doesn't just take it from people before him. He takes it from people after him as well. Heck, Minerva's usefulness goes up massively if given a speedwing. As does marth's ability to 1 round the final boss. Giving the speedwing to Nabarl doesn't just gimp Gordin, but it gimps every other character in the entire game as well. And, unlike merric, he isn't the only person who will ever want a speed boost.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Not even a noob is stupid enough to throw away a 20/12 mage with excellent stats in favor of Est.

Eh... you don't know much about noobs then. We have a noob here that uses people based on their portraits and other factors that I know you WILL find incredibly stupid

Anyway...

I still think that stat boosting items is causing complications. They need to be treated like weapons would. I think that wanting the speed wing is a disadvantage.

I concur. You know better than to factor stat boosters into a tier, BB.